Greetings From the Other Side of the Fence
Offline Hello. My name is Vito. I've actually had an account with rr for a few years, however with a new email and some new things in my life, I thought I might re-introduce myself.
I am 33 and living in Grand Rapids, MI....soon to move to Milwaukee, WI. I am a postulant with the Order of Friars Minor Capuchin (OFM Cap.). I live in community with other friars, some ordained priests and some just religious brothers, as we try to follow the teachings of Jesus as lived by Francis of Assisi. Needless to say, I am a Catholic.
Our charism (focus of ministry) is fraternity: the understanding that we are all related, and we should treat each other as brothers and sisters. Much like Francis who gave up his riches to live amongst the lepers, we work at soup kitchens, community centers, jails and prisons...always trying to reach out to the poor and those marginalized by society. Our help is given freely and we do not use this ministry as a springboard to evangelize.
As a Catholic, my beliefs come under attack from many different locations. People known as "Bible Christians" or "Fundamentalists" see me and my religion as a bigger threat than atheist or agnostic thought. As such, I've done my best to defend my faith, biblical interpretation, Tradition, and the teachings of the Church. While I'm no theologian, my discussions with others has allowed me to further understand my faith and discuss matters of such intensity without losing my temper.
My hope is not to convert or "save" souls (Catholics do not acknowledge sola fide or sola gratia doctrine), rather to educate and explain misconceptions of the Catholic Church. There are people on both sides of the fence that choose not to learn but merely reinforce existing stereotypes and errant thinking. I'd prefer to be on good terms with everyone regardless of their beliefs. The best way I can accomplish this is by refuting as much of the anti-Catholic propaganda as I can.
I hope I can be of service, and feel free to ask any questions you may have. Thank you for your time.
Pace e bene,
Vitus
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Offline Greetings, Vitus!
Having been reared as a Roman Catholic, I too have seen the appeal of taking holy rites. When I was a young teen, I had seriously considered becoming a Poor Claire. I didn't, and one thing lead to another, and now my whole world view has changed. I for one am glad of that. Anyways, I see your willingness to have an educated debate with us non-religious folk as a good thing. Welcome and feel free to explain your position. 
Vote for McCain... www.therealmccain.com ...and he'll bring Jesus back
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Offline Hi Vito. I'm glad you are here and I do have a question for you.
What is the most challenging aspect of your lifestyle?
I have another question I've always wondered about. I guess I could have researched it but I haven't so as long as your here I'd like to go ahead and ask you, if you don't mind.
I've never been involved with the Catholic church or really close to a Catholic but we have a Catholic TV station on cable here. When I stop by this channel to see what they are broadcasting it seems that mostly it is droning, repetitive chant-prayers. There seems to be no feeling. It is as if god is going to be more impressed by numerous repetitions than he would if it was done one time with sincerity. They even seem to deliberately have little or no inflection in their voices. It is very mantra-like. Very monotonous. So, anyway, to my simple question...
What am I missing or not understanding about this process of repetitive droning? What is the theory behind it, if you know?
Thanks!
(edited to add the following)
It occurs to me that maybe that sounded flippant and I exaggerated the droning thing so let me ask it in a different way:
Is (or WHY is) rote repetition the norm?
I've always thought that if I were god I would be very unimpressed by people simply repeating things for the sake of have said the prescribed words rather than saying something new, and perhaps imperfect, that was truly felt.
When I was young and living in England it was kind of the same thing. Every morning we had to assemble and say payers, particularly the Lords Prayer. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done....
All spoken with complete flatness and insincerity from my perspective. Even as a young child I could tell that everyone was just saying these things and not feeling them or meaning them.
Of course, I do not know what was in each person's head, but you probably know what I mean.
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Offline I was an hour into responding to Jacob's thread, when I accidentily hit the Back button and lost everything. Franciscan or not, I wanted to put my fist through the wall. ><
There were quite a few changes I went through before coming to this point in my life. I gave up a great job as a Sales Manager at a car dealership. I broke off a year long relationship with my ex-gf. I have given away most of my things, and am preparing to live a life of service. That doesn't count the year and a half of celibacy either.
But the hardest part is this notion that we are all family, and as such should be on good terms with everyone. It's a nice idea, and it's quite the goal, but even I have a hard time being nice to everyone. There are plenty of stupid people in the world: bigots, pessimists, self-righteous elitists, apathetic and uncaring thugs...people who make it hard to love. This idea that I should show my best friend the same respect as Osama Bin Laden, it's a hard thing to actually live. Yet this sense of "universal love for all" is what makes the Franciscans the most popular order, even among non-Catholics.
I've gone from a life of pursuing money and status to one of a lowly friar. I am learning to be the "little brother." It's hard to turn off that "chase," however I find myself happier in the pursuit of bettering the lives of others.
As for your second question, it's a matter of tradition and taste. =)
If you were watching something on EWTN, it was probably the Rosary or the Divine Mercy, a collection of repetitive prayers with reflection on the mysteries of faith or the mercy of Jesus, respectfully. The repetition of prayers as a form of meditation on a greater idea comes from the Hebrews. It gets pretty repetitive and sometimes boring in my opinion. I don't usually pray the Rosary unless someone asks me to pray with them. There are 3 ways to pray that I've found, recitation of already existing prayers, simply "talking to God," and meditation...just being at peace with oneself. I prefer the latter 2.
If you are referring to the monotonous tone that is often experienced at Mass, the lack-luster "..and also with you," as if everyone were still waking up from a late Saturday night, I think Catholics just aren't morning people. =)
Seriously, the prayers and responses that are said today were sung before the Novus Ordo was introduced after Vatican II. While the sound of Gregorian Chant is wonderful, the order of mass was changed in hopes that by using the local language instead of Latin, people would be further encouraged to participate in the mass. Unfortunately, since the order was changed, many of the prayer chants were dropped and replaced with simple recitation.
I am a musical person, so I notice the odd mantra-sounding responses. I do miss the chant, however I appreciate the fact that the church wants people to participate in mass, even if they can't sing.
I hope that answers your questions.
Pace e bene,
Vitus
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Offline Hi Vitus,
Hope you have an enjoyable and enlightening stay at RRS, listen to what we have to say and we will listen to you. I must point out that I am very anti-Catholicism, although it is more at the establishment that I direct this as opposed to the ordinary Catholic on the street. I'm just wondering how you would defend the following Vatican policies:
Vitus lost his reply so I thought I'd take a go at playing the Pope's Advocate.
With Catholic parents and upbringing, I think I could give some kind of answer.
Firstly the Catholic would defend the establishment to a degree, but I think it would end with the following:
Catholics don't see their church as an absolute authority.
They see them as the organisation that leads and organizes the church and keeps the traditions, but ultimately human like the rest of us so prone to corruption and being led astray.
They say that the Church has had (and still has) its flaws but they would claim that it's been responsible for good things too.
They also say that the Church is reforming (e.g. Vatican 2) and even if they don't currently have the ideal church, that's all the more reason to stay and make things better - push things forward.
So I guess their argument is:
a) Even with its flaws the Catholic Church does/has done more good than harm. (Debatable but possible I guess...)
b) If the Catholic Church has flaws, it's better to promote change from within than to leave. (Again, debatable - maybe it's an organisation worth leaving to die.)
Vitus has given us an example of his Franciscan style organisation that put a lot of work into charity.
Perhaps our argument might be is whether the Catholic Church can really take credit for it, whether such charitable people could have found inspiration elsewhere?
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Offline A belated Welcome to you.
I have two questions for you.Firstly, why did you choose this particular website for your endeavours? Not that it is by any means a bad thing that you did, however the content of your post indicates you seem to think your struggle against other believers:
People known as "Bible Christians" or "Fundamentalists" see me and my religion as a bigger threat than atheist or agnostic thought
You will probably realise most people here do not care for the various sects and nuances of theism, belief is generally treated as belief, some might not even feel the need to differentiate between islam and christianity. Even though they are vastly different to the follower, we view them as fruit from the same tree.
Anyway, point being people here are probably alot less anti-catholic than a christian board might be, rather just anti-theism in general 
My hope is not to convert or "save" souls (Catholics do not acknowledge sola fide or sola gratia doctrine),
I'm not the best at this, but sola fide - salvation by faith opposed to works?
And sola gratia -grace alone.
I'm a little lost here. So you don't believe men are saved by faith or grace, but by works? Which is the exact opposite of what my christian education taught so I'm sure you can see why I'm struggling with this.
So how exactly do catholics get into heaven? Do you have to be baptised as a baby? Isn't that a little unfair if catholicism turns out to be the only right sect and and all other believers go to hell?
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline Pace e bene,
Vitus
Italian instead of Latin? Is that a Franciscan tradition? Naturally, Assisi is smack dab in the middle of Italy, but I didn't know there was a linguistic tradition in the order.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
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Offline Greeting. Having once been a very devoted Catholic, I too contemplated religious life. My father runs a small Catholic Worker House in Kansas, and generally identifies deeply with the Franciscan philosophy. He is still deeply upset with me for becoming atheist, and it acts as an undertone for our whole relationship now. He considers the fact that I no longer accept anecdotes as evidence to be deliberately pigheaded. He also thinks that this is just a phase, some "dark night of the soul." When I point out that his bible is completely inconsistent with the pacifistic philosophy he espouses, he gets especially riled up. It might take the desecration of a consecrated host to get the point across that I don't believe anymore. Such is life.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
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Offline
I'm not the best at this, but sola fide - salvation by faith opposed to works?And sola gratia -grace alone.
I'm a little lost here. So you don't believe men are saved by faith or grace, but by works? Which is the exact opposite of what my christian education taught so I'm sure you can see why I'm struggling with this.
So how exactly do catholics get into heaven? Do you have to be baptised as a baby? Isn't that a little unfair if catholicism turns out to be the only right sect and and all other believers go to hell?
Sole Fide was one of the major ideas Martin Luther had when breaking away from the Catholic Church, and is an interpretation of the Bible that continues. It states that because of Christ's death and resurrection, all the debt for our sins has been paid. (some of this should sound familiar.) Because of the redemption and salvation given to us by Christ, we need only believe to receive that salvation. This is where the idea that one is saved "by simply accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior."
This actually goes against scripture, the writings of early Christians, and the traditions of the early church. We are required to repent for our sins, and repentance is a three step process: confession (admission of wrong doing), contrition (regret and sorrow for wrong doing), and expiation (atonement and reparation for wrong doing). This is important because the RCC does not teach that works alone will gain entrance to Heaven, nor does it teach that God's forgiveness is conditional, but that works out of faith are part of that covenant between Christ and us. Simply believing doesn't cut it.
Sola gratia is a lesser-known doctrine, but a much scarier one. The idea comes from the early Reformers (specifically John Calvin) stating that justification (the act by which our sins our forgiven and we are granted salvation) is outside our control and can neither be attained or lost through our actions. This is where the many of the "TULIP" ideas of 5-point Calvinism come from.
The opposite, again, is not grace through our works. In fact, it ties in with the earlier discussion regarding repentance. Contained in the soul of all people is grace of God (aka sanctifying grace), one of the many graces given to us. With this sanctifying grace, we live out the teachings of Christ as shown by the bible, the saints, and by the Catechism.
What differs is that this sanctifying grace can be lost, a key difference between Calvinist thought and Catholicism. To reach heaven, we must die in a state of grace. Through our sins, we can lose that grace, and it is up to us to maintain it through repentance.
I mentioned this doctrine was scary because it can (and has) lead to fanaticism. If accepting Christ as my personal savior is a guarantee that I get into Heaven, and nothing I can do can change that, then by that rationale I am free to do anything without losing my salvation: drive drunk, hit old ladies with baseball bats, extort money, rape and pillage...anything. There is no need to follow the teachings of the bible, since failure to do so would not jeopardize my salvation. Salvation without any control means I can do anything I want and claim to be doing the Lord's work.
Sorry for being long-winded, however the discussion of these doctrines could fill many, many more web pages. =)
Pace e bene,
Vitus
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Offline
This actually goes against scripture, the writings of early Christians, and the traditions of the early church. We are required to repent for our sins, and repentance is a three step process: confession (admission of wrong doing), contrition (regret and sorrow for wrong doing), and expiation (atonement and reparation for wrong doing). This is important because the RCC does not teach that works alone will gain entrance to Heaven, nor does it teach that God's forgiveness is conditional, but that works out of faith are part of that covenant between Christ and us. Simply believing doesn't cut it.
I was what could be described as a non-denominational fundamentalist. While I didn't believe in salvation through works, I didn't believe 'once saved always saved' either. I accepted sort of balance between faith alone and regular repentance/ fellowship.
Sola gratia is a lesser-known doctrine, but a much scarier one. The idea comes from the early Reformers (specifically John Calvin) stating that justification (the act by which our sins our forgiven and we are granted salvation) is outside our control and can neither be attained or lost through our actions. This is where the many of the "TULIP" ideas of 5-point Calvinism come from.
So are you a Calvinist?
What differs is that this sanctifying grace can be lost, a key difference between Calvinist thought and Catholicism. To reach heaven, we must die in a state of grace. Through our sins, we can lose that grace, and it is up to us to maintain it through repentance.
This is pretty much what I followed. I was in perpetual fear when I hadn't recently asked for forgiveness and finding myself in hell. My christian education was Southern Baptist based, although my church was non-denominational.
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline Vitus wrote:Pace e bene,
Vitus
Italian instead of Latin? Is that a Franciscan tradition? Naturally, Assisi is smack dab in the middle of Italy, but I didn't know there was a linguistic tradition in the order.
No linguistic tradition. I've seen the Pax et bonum used a few times. However Francis wasn't a scholar; he wasn't really a good student either. He was raised to be a clothier, he dreamed of being a knight, and ended up living a mendicant life. It's probable that Francis used the vernacular when when addressing people.
Besides...using "In Christ," as an ending seems so pretentious lol!
Peace and all good [be unto you],
Vitus
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Offline Besides...using "In Christ," as an ending seems so pretentious lol!
St.Michael anyone? Or what did he use? "In eternal wisdom"
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
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Offline He used to sign off something like "Yours in Christ, eternal wisdom." How long was he around before he got banned? (for dishonesty if I remember.)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
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Offline Besides...using "In Christ," as an ending seems so pretentious lol
Vitus,
Every time I hear someone use "in Christ" I think of Paul, explaining to us how we are to "put on Christ" - like a garment or wrap it around us like a cloak. The symbolism is fantastic. I often wonder if Mark used this symbolism when he fashioned the tattered garments in the tomb. Jesus would have "shed" his old body like one takes off clothing. Fascinating symbolism.
In reason,
Rook
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
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Offline The News Journal, 5/8/08/ 5/16/08 6/7/08, 6/14/08, 6/26/08
"A seventh lawsuit was filed in Delaware Superior Court against the Diocese of Wilmington. The suits allege hundreds of acts of abuse during the 1960s from Rev. Francis G DeLuca when he was a priest at St. Elizabeth Church and St. John the Beloved Church. DeLucs, 73, has many suits against him. The suits cover 14 of 35 years DeLuca spent in the priesthood.
The suits come on the heels of other suits. One recently filed suit alleges rape in the late 1970s against Rev. Paul Daleo, 57. Daleo was a Capuchin friar at St. Edmonds Academy in Brandywine Hundred, Delaware. Daleo also has a list of previous lawsuits against him. Another suit settled by the diocese involved the former principal of Salesianum School. The suit claimed the diocese conspired to cover up the abuse by Rev. James W. O'Neil. The victim received an undisclosed amount, an apology from the bishop and a permanent revocation of O'Neill's priestly authority."
No to cast aspersions on you, personally...
However, I wonder why you would choose a vocation in a religious sect riddled by sexual scandals? The Roman Catholic Diocese of Davenport, Iowa recently filed bankruptcy (Oct, 2006) due to an approved $37 million settlement between the Diocese and more than 160 people who were sexually abused by it's priests. Nor is this an isolated situation.
IMO the catholic church has a bad image in the US and it's being tarnished further every day as new allegations are made and more scandalous 'dirt' that the church has been trying to cover up for decades comes to the surface.
Also...are you familiar with the following scriptures?
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker [not violent], not greedy of filthy lucre [money]; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (1 Timothy 3:1-7)
"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker [not violent], not given to filthy lucre [money]; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Titus 1:7-9)
According to the above...and if I understand the catholic heirarchy correctly, priests can and should marry. One must be a priest in order to become a bishop. And the pope is bishop of Rome...it follows that the pope should be married to prove, according to the bibical quote, worthiness for the job and trust of the congregation.
IMO the 'trust of the congregation' has been dealt a severe blow. In the US, again if I recall the statistics correctly, membership in the RCC is dwindling. If the RCC is forced to sell property to pay for the sexual abuse claims, the congregation (from which the money to support the church comes) won't have a place to hold their worship rituals much less a pot to piss in.
Do you really think it's fair to punish the congregation, including those victimized, for the actions of the pedophile priests that have been allowed to run rampant in the catholic church?
>>>
"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)
Respectfully, Lyz
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Offline Honest question for the new guy...isn't a Capuchin some kind of monkey? Is the monkey named for the order?
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell
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Offline I don't think I have anything to say that everyone else hasn't already said......just though I'd poke in to say "hello and welcome" anyway. Hello, and welcome!
"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan
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Offline Honest question for the new guy...isn't a Capuchin some kind of monkey? Is the monkey named for the order?
The capuchins are the group of New World monkeys classified as genus Cebus. Their name comes from their coloration, which resembles the cowls worn by the Franciscan Capuchin order of Catholic friars
-from Wikipedia
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
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Offline I mentioned this doctrine was scary because it can (and has) lead to fanaticism. If accepting Christ as my personal savior is a guarantee that I get into Heaven, and nothing I can do can change that, then by that rationale I am free to do anything without losing my salvation: drive drunk, hit old ladies with baseball bats, extort money, rape and pillage...anything. There is no need to follow the teachings of the bible, since failure to do so would not jeopardize my salvation. Salvation without any control means I can do anything I want and claim to be doing the Lord's work.
Tsk. Tsk. Once a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal saviour they are born again through him. You belong to God. Obviously if you are hitting old women with bats, raping, or pillaging you couldn't possibly be a disciple of christ.
Geeze. This is basic stuff, old chap. JOHN 3:16 FOREVER!!!!
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
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Offline Welcome, Vitus! I know there are good people on all sides of all fences. When enough of us will know that fact, the fences will fall! The act of service which you and other friars perform, is a good example for many people in the incoming age to follow. There is a stage in human life of a certain kind, when the personality is more and more strongly inclined toward a service. I see very gladly when people don't resist this urge, but make the best of it they can. It doesn't matter to me under what or any religion's outer form they fulfil that basic need of an evolved mind.
I also don't have any special problem with members of any faith, I grew up in a strongly religional neighbourhood, but it didn't hurt me. I like the way how people around here consider their faith more like a private thing, an inner life, not a subject of prideful public exposure.
I like to discuss with people, too bad it's often about topics, which are often unspeakable for me or unfamiliar to others.
But the hardest part is this notion that we are all family, and as such should be on good terms with everyone. It's a nice idea, and it's quite the goal, but even I have a hard time being nice to everyone. There are plenty of stupid people in the world: bigots, pessimists, self-righteous elitists, apathetic and uncaring thugs...people who make it hard to love. This idea that I should show my best friend the same respect as Osama Bin Laden, it's a hard thing to actually live. Yet this sense of "universal love for all" is what makes the Franciscans the most popular order, even among non-Catholics.
When I see the problems and flaws of others, I'm grateful that they're not my flaws. When people will do mistakes, there is a greater chance for them to be more benevolent toward my own flaws. If not, well, they have more problems than I do, and they're a good ocassion to practise a compassion, patience, and handling a violent situations.
The most important person who you have to be on good terms with, is you, I mean, a right relationship with self is the beginning and the basis. This is actually my lesson to learn, I see a living true manifestation of God in every better looking girl I happen to see, or in many people who doesn't convince me otherwise. The theory is a bit complicated, so I write it as a pantheistic shortcut. But somehow I often forget to apply this principle also to myself. When I will learn this, a lot of my problems will be solved.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
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Welcome, Have a good stay. We try not to discriminate against any religious view but this is a site geared more towards atheist so don't be surprise to have to come up with some new arguments.
Its always nice to have a little bit of people from the other view to come here and give us new arguments both to argue for and against.
Again Welcome!
welcome aboard. My sister is a catholic among a normally protestant community and she is almost as shunned for her beliefs as I am for my lack of belief. We don't really discuss religion so it works out for both of us. Enjoy your stay and look forward to some of your insight as I don't think I have ever met a friar of the Minor Capuchin before.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
Hello, and a warm welcome to you. It's always nice to see a friendly and mildmanered person posting here, regardless of their religous affiliation. Nice to meet you.
And good on you for the charity work you do. I have the utmost respect for that.
Best wishes to you from Denmark.
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
Wow didnt know there were that many monks around. I suppose if they lived in their closed community with fellow adults and don't bother me (+ obey the law) I don't think I have much against them
Welcome to the forums!
I would love to hear about the life of postulant with the Order of Friars Minor Capuchin!
Please jump right into the discussions and have fun!
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
Welcome. I'm with Renee - I'd think a monk's life would be interesting. Well, to hear about. I don't have what you might call the "temperament" to be a monk.
I'm not sure if there's any focussed anti-Catholic propaganda here, either. It might be limited to anti-theist diatribes (id est against the belief in any deity). Most of those are just venting, though - I doubt you'd find any of it terribly offensive.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Hello Vitus. Welcome to the forum.
Although I reject theism as a concept I do try to acknowledge the "bad" theists from the "good" ones. Some are quite amicable and deserving of respect ( as you appear to be ) while others are irrational bigots not worth my time.
I look forward to reading your contributions.
Welcome to the forums, Vitus! My thanks for the charity work you're doing as well. Providing you really aren't using it as a springboard for faith-spreading, that is very admirable.
I look forward to hearing your perspective on things
Welcome, but do also realize that just like theists each and every one of us has different personalities. Some like library type exchanges while others, like me, don't mind a verbal boxing match.
I do have fangs, in debate, but don't take that personally, my blasphemy is aimed at the claims a person makes, not the person themselves. Treat us all as individuals and don't take blunt criticism of a claim personally and you should enjoy your stay, even if you dont change your position.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Welcome Vito!
When I was a teenager I had a strong urge once to live the life of a monk.
However, I was a baptist back then.
So...yeah...
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I've visited Mr. Slick and his merry band of Christians at carm.org, so I'm quite aware of how nasty religious discourse can become. =)
Thank you all for the wonderful reception. I hope I can add something relevant to your boards.
Pace e bene,
Vitus
Hi!
One of my classmates in my philosophy classes in University was a postulant of the O.F.M. Cap.! =^_^=
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Thanks Vitus for caring, sharing and doing good. There are many paths and ways to the awakening of "oneness" .... as the christ is each of US .... No Master.
My favorite story Jesus philosophy interpretation, is of a atheist/pantheist buddha jesus "monk", who did reveal it's temper of righteous indignation.
My battle is against dogma, against god of abraham, not gawed, not me and you. Dogmists need healing ....
Atheism Books.
Salve Vitus,
I was raised both Greek and Orthodox rite. For a while, I felt I had a calling to become a Priest, and almost went that way. I have no issues with educating oneself to alternative perspectives. I hope you appreciate our tinge of skepticism--after all, we are the victims of countless proselytizing attempts daily! But in our world, skepticism is honest and hearty.
With that behind us, however, welcome you to the RRS. I find it interesting that you say you live your lives like Jesus (figuratively, I'd assume you don't walk on water or shrivel fig trees or, like in some apocrypha, curse and wither children in the fig-trees absence!). To me, you might as well have said you are following the footsteps of Sargon or Hammurabi or Merneptah or Enkidu. (A bit of mimesis-critical humor)
I'd really like your opinions on my online book I'm working on (purely for the educated layman). If you'd like, check it out.
Vale!
Rook
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
Hi Vitus,
Hope you have an enjoyable and enlightening stay at RRS, listen to what we have to say and we will listen to you. I must point out that I am very anti-Catholicism, although it is more at the establishment that I direct this as opposed to the ordinary Catholic on the street. I'm just wondering how you would defend the following Vatican policies:
- Pope John Paul telling Africans not to use condoms and knowingly helping to spread the AIDS epidemic.
- The forced baptism of Jewish children by their Catholic nurses in Italy in the 18th and 19th centuries
- The ridiculous "pro-life" anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia and anti-stem cell research policies. Abortion, euthanasia and stem cell research help to relieve unnecessary suffering.
- The illegality of divorce
- The enforcement of Catholicism as state-religion in European nations prior to the Enlightenment
- The banning of women from the priesthood or papacy (which actually goes against European human rights legislation).
- The enforcement of celibacy amongst members of the clergy, leading to the build up of sexual frustration (which it could be argued fuels the paedophilia noted among such clergy) and increasing the risk of testicular cancer among such clergy. Can't you at least let them masturbate?
- Teaching children lies in classrooms around the world.
Atheist Books
How about this one: If someone refuses to eat a eucharist and takes it hostage, does that mean I should send him death threats and attempt to make him lose his job? Or does it mean I should just chill out because it's just a freaking cracker?
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