Hijacking Eloise for Atheism (or... BRAINWASHING!!!!!)
Offline In another thread, Eloise responded to one of our mailbag posts:
Sarah, you're wrong and being deceitful about your knowledge of brainwashing. It requires more control over someone than can be exerted or has been exerted by anyone here. Here's a list of a few things which are pretty much essential to the act of brainwashing ranked 1-n in order of importance:
1. A threat, usually of physical harm or endangerment to life.
2. Extreme Social Isolation
3. Control over the persons basic daily and most personal activities - you need to take control over when and how they respond to their most personal bodily urges, such as when they pee, how they eat, what they wear.
4. Systematic frequent assault on the persons most Basic sense of identity in order to replace it with a substitute sense of identity.
Omitting any of these essential parts is akin to not really brainwashing at all. For instance you can continuously assault a persons sense of identity, but if they can get away from you physically, mentally and emotionally then you can't brainwash them, you can only be an aggressive blip on their radar. To effectively brainwash you need all of these tools at your disposal.
You might notice also that your religion does have these tools, all of them. That's not to say religion necessarily brainwashes people, but it most certainly demonstrates that any religious group wanting to brainwash is well equipped to do so. The RRS web forum, OTOH, is ill-equipped and therefore really cannot brainwash anyone.
K?
I'd just like to expand on this a bit, and I think it's fair to do so, since Eloise herself said, "You might notice also that your religion does have these tools, all of them."
Anyway...
1. A threat: Hell, anyone? This one is so obvious that it hardly needs mentioning, but I've overestimated people before, so here it is. The ultimate threat. Side with us or BURN HORRIBLY FOR TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF YEARS WITH NO HOPE OF REDEMPTION OR RESPITE!!!!!!!!!!
Granted, hell is not the only threat in Christianity (or Islam, for that matter). For anyone old enough to remember Michael Jackson's album, Thriller, you might remember that preachers all over the country warned (threatened!) children everywhere against watching the video. If we did, we were told, we would become POSSESSED BY DEMONS!!!!! Oooogy Booogy Scary!!!
The followers of Christianity are good emulators. Abortion clinics anyone? Threatened boycotts of companies? Actual boycotts? Christians are very good at threats. They should be. Their god is the ultimate threatener.
2. Extreme Social Isolation. This one may be a little harder to grasp, but think on something for a minute if you're a theist. How many hard core atheists are among your friends? Even among the most moderate churches, the flock is encouraged to stay away from atheists and other non-believers for fear of tainting their precious faith.
The more fundamental churches make it much more obvious. The flock won't go to R rated movies. They won't go to bars. Their only social outlet is church. They are encouraged not to even speak to non-Christians, except where they have to for business. They are told to be "In the world, but not of the world." (Seriously... do a google search for that phrase. It will shock you how many times it comes up. (I got 47,800 hits with that phrase in quotes. There are many more variations running around.
Colloquially, when we think of extreme social isolation, the first thing that comes to mind is solitary confinement, but we need to realize that even in the most conservative psych texts, the definition is much more broad, and includes in-group isolation -- that is, not allowing (or severely discouraging) contact with anyone outside of the group.
3. Control over personal habits. Can we think of anything here? Something really personal that Christians are obsessed with? Something they spend tons of their time trying to censor? Something they want to regulate? Something they want to make into a constitutional amendment, perhaps?
Duh. Sex is the most personal of personal habits, and also the one that makes us uniquely human. (SEE: Female Sexuality and Origins and What Science Says About Human Sexuality) Not at all coincidentally, Christianity is obsessed with controlling every aspect of human sexuality, and reducing it down to its bare minimum social functions.
4. Systematic frequent assault on the persons most Basic sense of identity in order to replace it with a substitute sense of identity.
Repeat after me:
We are sinful creatures, not worthy of anything of our own making. We are nothing without Jesus. Life has no meaning if we don't have Jesus. Without Jesus, morality is impossible. Without Jesus, happiness is impossible. Jesus is my everything. God is my hope in all things, and without him, I can do nothing.
So... yeah... Christianity = Brainwashing.
Oh... and one more thing...
QED.
Thanks, Eloise, for the inspiration for this post.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Baffling would be more accurate. Either there are secluded sections of the country where Christianity is the polar opposite of everywhere else, or these folks are getting something mixed up. Maybe they don't understand what is meant by brainwashing? Maybe they just haven't recognized what they were seeing? Maybe they think brainwashing has to be done blatantly? I dunno.
I suppose they could be lying about never seeing it, but why would anyone do that? Any atheist, anyway. Really, I'm baffled. I can't fathom how it isn't obvious to anyone who's familiar with brainwashing.
Just tune in to any TV church show you like. They all do it. And yeah... I was under the impression that evangelicals were more like 25% of the population, but it doesn't matter. That's one out of either three or four people who have been exposed to or committed religious brainwashing. (That's what evangelical churches are, if you don't know. Evangelicals will tell you themselves that they do all that stuff. They'll just use more positive language.)
Drive on any highway near Atlanta. They're all over the place. Dozens.. maybe hundreds of them.
Baffling.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
From what I've read Evangelicals are the biggest religious affiliation in the US (look at our politicians - without them the Republican party would likely be a 3rd party by now!) and they REALLY emphasize hell. Catholics I believe are 2nd - and they officially believe in Hell too. Only the most liberal Christians don't believe in Hell or believe it to simply mean death or that only "really bad" people go there.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
For the purpose of self-defense: I never said I have never heard of churches using this technique (i.e., hell-threat) (e.g., Hamby has let me known that he has experienced it), I merely stated that in my experience I have never been subject to it in the churches I have visited (or at least that was what I was trying to get across).
My thoughts exactly. I know there are churches that use this somewhere. I just have never been in one using hell fire threats.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
I know people in the US who where subjected to this....there are documentaries on this, shit most churches that I have gone to hint to hell or blantanly start going on about the unsaved going to hell (yes I have gone with friends to shut them about how church is this wonderful experience) so unless the majority of you guys are jehova witness I cannot believe that the preacher NEVER mentioned hell...unless of course you only went on specific holidays (Christmas, Easter), weddings and funerals.
Or universalists? Or seventh day adventists? Or general baptists? Some congregational church that just might not believe in "hell"? A non-denominational church that doesn't believe in "hell"?
Granted, it would appear that the larger denominations do believe in a "hell" (in the eternal torment sense).. yet, even in these denominations, it may still be possible to find a church that is in the part of the country that the pastor doesn't feel the need to preach on hell.. or maybe just chooses not to for other reasons.
I remember clearly the first time 'hell' was explained to me. I was about 9.
The resulting feeling was dread. I Immediately thought back to as many things I've done, said, and thought of as I could remember to evaluate whether they would be judged as hell worthy. I lived in fear for several weeks afterwards.
But then I came to my senses and concluded that everyone in the world was deluded. That was the must frightening thing of all.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Is that the majority of theists that have responded are not part of the LARGEST congreations in the world? Catholics are the number 1, Evagilists and Baptists are the second and third.....so everyone is not part of these congreations at all?. Wow...oh seventh day adventists believe in hell, just not concious eternal torment. So yeah there are preachers that don't believe in hell, but the majority of the churchs...well let me rephrase that the LARGEST denominations churches do believe in hell and I HIGHLY doubt that no one here has never grown up without someone mentioning about burning in hell, heck all my friends in the US, in Canada, in Germany and England can all recall at least 1 incident about the threat of hell, from a believer in christ.
While the term "hell" has been used in my experience with the SDA church, it is so far apart from what most people consider "hell" to me, that I think use of the word just confuses things. There is no "eternal torment" at all--conscious or otherwise--merely existence, and non-existence.
Haven't only four christians or former christians responded to the contrary in this thread? I don't know why you would "highly doubt" that four people never grew up with it.. especially in light of the fact that other people, ex-christian or otherwise, that have had experience with christian churches have had experiences regarding sermons or mentionings of hell, have voiced their stories in this thread as well.. e.g., hamby.
As a former Catholic, I can certainly attest that Catholicism asserts the existence of hell, and that unbelievers will in fact burn in hell. For a number of years I attended Catholic school, and every now and again in religion class, that lesson would be reinforced and retread.
I make this point both to confirm that, and to clarify my earlier statement: When citing Our Lady of Grace as a congregation where brainwashing techniques weren't used, I wasn't by any means trying to claim no churches in the Tidewater/Virginia Beach area did such things. St. Gregory's certainly did, especially as part of their schooling.
But a church on a military base is a slightly different critter: the congregation's highly fluid, and deals with 'unbelievers' constantly, so the isolation aspect doesn't work. Controlling aspects of the congregation's lives is also impossible, as their lives are already highly controlled by powers well outside the influence of the Church. Heck, the ministry is utterly at the mercy of those same powers, as chaplains themselves get transferred to different postings. (It should also be noted that priests in the military don't seem to have exhibited the same... deviant sexual behaviors as their civilian counterparts. Maybe it's a more regimented life, maybe it's that every altar boy has at least one parent who's qualified on the rifle range in the last 2 years, I dunno.) Assaulting the sense of self also gets undermined by the military, because they've been through that (in basic/boot) and tend to recognize it... and because doing that requires that isolation and control that just isn't possible. There also tends to be far, far less focus on the 'hellfire and damnation' aspect. The congregation generally shows up and wants to be reaffirmed and reassured of the general righteousness of being willing to die for one's nation, and doesn't tend to have much patience for being lectured about 'thou shalt not kill'.
So, I just wanted to clarify that my citing a single church before was not in any way an attempt to refute assertations that churches do practice these things. Many do. It was simply to offer specific knowledge of one that doesn't, because it really can't.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Ok... I'm saying this with 100% seriousness. No sarcasm, no exaggeration. I'm truly baffled by anyone who lives in America who claims never to have seen, or only having seen a small amount of brainwashing in Christian churches. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that I've been to probably five hundred churches at a minimum, and the only ones I went to where there wasn't brainwashing going on were non-Christian churches -- that is, UU or other such "spiritual but not Christian" churches.
Are you guys just brushing aside talk of hell if it isn't spoken in nasty yelling tones? Maybe you've only been to the happy things, like weddings, or Christmas? Seriously, though. How can you live in America and not see the signs of Christian brainwashing on every other street corner? I mean, where I live, every church has one of those stupid marquees, and about half the time, they have something vaguely threatening to non-believers.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I have seen these tactics. Nevertheless, have not experienced (as in, in my own church).
Echoing aiia, god of abe crap is child abuse, terrorism .... sick sick sick .... All such idol worship is sick.
Atheism Books.
Isn't it though ?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
It appears SDA is similar to atheism (no hell, no heaven, no sin, wanting an earth without bad things). The only difference is that you'r ewilling to wait for a God to fix things at the end of days instead of working to fix things now.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I don't know how many times people have used this argument on this forum... but it's been a lot.
The belief that God "will" fix things does not preclude me "trying" to fix things now.
Who sai SDA's don't believe in heaven or sin? Perhaps don't believe in "heaven" as a "spirit-plane" or something of that nature.. but certainly of some nature. And "sin," well.. I'm not really sure on their official take on it.. only mine.
Good to hear - I was just at the official site and they didn't seem to have a position on sin or helping folks in this life. Glad to hear you're not against doing something.
It was all fluff about how much God wants you on the new earth (heaven, if you will).
What is sin to you or any other SDA, then? Or is that relative as well? Feel free to PM if you wish.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Rhad, you're a seventh day adventist? How'd I miss that?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
"Seventh-day Adventists are involved in providing betterment for all human beings and especially reaching out to provide practical help to those affected by disaster or those requiring development assistance.
“Do unto others . . .” is a phrase known to Seventh-day Adventists. In order to accomplish the mission goals of the Christian church, Adventists are promoters of human freedom and responsibility, especially emphasizing freedom of religion for all peoples."
--taken from http://www.adventist.org/mission_and_service/index.html.en
Adventist Development and Relief Agency:
http://www.adventist.org/mission_and_service/adra.html.en
Most churches I'm aware of.. have some sort of "mission" to make the world a better place in what some would consider "more practical" ways than just "belief and religion." Perhaps I'm wrong on that one..
As for an individual level.. there is a bit of cognitive dissonance that goes along with trying to understand a "belief in Christ" without a "belief in working to fix the world of 'bad things'."
I believe there is a general definition of sin, which is mainly "anything that 'harms' your relationship with God or fellow (wo)man."
To some extent, I do think it is relative, or at least easier to think of in that way.. because who am I to say what action will have what effect on what person? Picking up a bottle of jack might have little affect on me, I have no history with it, no issues.. yet, perhaps, for someone else, it is an action that breaks a promise to a wife.. one more step in a life long battle with alcoholism that they are now resigning themselves to.. or, something else.
So.. I usually don't feel comfortable saying "that is a sin, this is not a sin, etc. etc."
Speaking in general principles, however, is easier for me to get comfortable with "the truth is better than untruth, and so, when you have no good reason to lie, tell the truth."
Something along those lines..
Hm.. I suppose I'm getting on a tangent.
Sin = a state of separation with God or a state of having a distorted picture of God. e.g., the world is in Sin.
sin = any action or thought that 'harms' your relationship with god or fellow man. e.g., I have sinned against you.
Not sure if that answered your question......
I don't know. I play it close to the chest.. only recently has it become directly relevant.
Had experiences with SDA's before?
Not a lot, Rhad. Most of the Southern Baptists in this part of the country will lynch SDA's on sight. (They outlawed lynching blacks... much to the chagrin of many a pastor...)
Check me if I'm wrong on this, but all the "Survey of Religion" textbooks I've read say that SDA's are really, really sure that God wants you to pray on Saturday, not Sunday, and that the Rapture, or second coming, or whatever, is a really big deal, and one day, Jesus is going to split the clouds and throw lightning bolts at heretics, or something like that...
Um... they don't believe in eternal punishment, if memory serves. Also, if memory serves, what's her name... Ellen White? is considered up there with Jesus and Paul for credibility of scriptures.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Err... ok... haste got in the way of research. Anyway, here's what Wiki says about the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs. Sounds pretty goofy to me.
The doctrine of God
1. Holy Scriptures
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)
2. Trinity: There is one God
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)
3. Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)
4. Son
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
5. Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)
[edit] The doctrine of Humankind
6. Creation
God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good", declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)
7. Nature of Man Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)
[edit] The doctrine of Salvation
8. Great Controversy
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)
9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)
10. Experience of Salvation
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)
11. Growing in Christ
By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25.)
[edit] The doctrine of the Church
12. Church
The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)
13. Remnant and Its Mission
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)
14. Unity in the Body of Christ The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)
15. Baptism
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)
16. Lord's Supper
The Lord's Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)
17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries
God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)
18. The Gift of Prophecy
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
[edit] The doctrine of the Christian Life
19. Law of God
The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)
20. Sabbath
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
21. Stewardship We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.)
22. Christian Behavior We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)
23. Marriage and the Family
Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)
[edit] The doctrine of Last Things
24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)
25. Second Coming of Christ
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)
26. Death and Resurrection
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
27. Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
28. New Earth
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hah.
The Saturday thing.. true. Although.. by "pray" I figure you mean, "take a day off of work," spend time with family, go to church (or some other activity that "focuses on God"
, then yes.. "pray."
The church didn't really like the whole change of the "Sabbath" from saturday to sunday.. and felt it was kind of important (20 on that list of beliefs you gave).
As for the "split of the clouds"--possible.. I figure it's more metaphorical.
Lightning bolts? Naw.. fire.. but once again.. metaphorical I believe. Fire, as far as I have come to understood, is to "cleansing" as white is to "clean." If there is to be no more "sin" in this post-world world.. than using "fire" as a metaphor for "cleansing the world of sin" makes sense to me.
I believe early on she was held by some to be equal with scripture--yet, even her, in her writings, said don't accept her if it goes against scripture. As time as gone on, she has taken a less than forefront position in the church.. as is more like.. a founding member of the church whose theology highly influenced the churches interpretation of the bible (e.g., the saturday = sabbath thing, the "great controversy," etc).
Lastly, for the 28 fundamental beliefs you gave..ya, parts of them might be considered "goofy"--I always appreciated the fact that they kept a lot of the "goofy" language that was similar to what was pulled from the verses.. which.. itself.. might be considered "goofy." This allows for more individual interpretation, which I like to do.
Just so I'm clear... do you believe that one day, a guy who's been dead for 2000 years (if he lived at all... the jury's still out, obviously) is going to ride a cloud into earth's atmosphere and um... what? Shoot metaphorical fire from his fingertips while setting up a whole new world government or something?
I'm trying to get around to the part of SDA's beliefs that isn't goofy, but I'm having a hard time finding it.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Well.. I suspect he'll be alive. And I have no idea what he's going to "ride in." My guess is on top of a sleigh with flying unicorns--the lead of which has a bright nose.
Geez.. I hope it won't be anything like a government.. the last thing I need is some one-party system.
(1) alive (2) being (3) appears (4) to make (5) things (6) better.
There you go. Pretty basic summary. Nothing "goofy" about any of those things.
In fact, I suspect most people believe this to some degree about some person.. I just believe it will be a particular person. And while that "particular person" might make it "goofy" to you.. the underlying idea isn't.. and so.. next time, search harder to find something. 
Do I have to settle for the appearance of making things better or can I keep working toward making it happen?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Heh. I didn't mean to imply that "trying to make things better" means that "give only the appearance."
I try to make things better, and in doing so, actually do make things better (hopefully).
I had to pick at you a little Rhad - coming off the birthday high.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Heh. Happy Birthday.
I don't see how anyone rational, who is a story Jesus fan, would take a Christian label for them self. It so not Jesus like, and fuels prejudice separatism idol worship.
To be Christian is to be Anti Christ. Christianity is "Devil" worship. Sneeky crafty devil. My definition: Devil means wrong thinking; separation of oneself from the "Oneness"; Idol worship.
I cannot, and will not appease the Xain cult. I am an "Atheist for Jesus" ....
"Love the enemy", as to understand, to heal, to free the god of abe slaves.
Atheism Books.
...So,like, the churches 'in your experience' - they were all devoid of Bibles, were they?
Big shortage in your area, I guess?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Wow! So much more realistic in it's outlook than a YEC fundamentalist.
Nope. 'Impossible' woud be the word that belongs in there.
(See also: Ri-fucking-diculous)
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Hey, look! Another theist dispensing with arguments in favor of snide sarcasm.
It just blows me right away.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Yes. Because bibles necessitate "hell" the eternal torment. /sarcasm
I know, right? It's crazy. /sarcasm.
I know. Like, ridiculously impossible--so much so, it's dumb. /sarcasm
If Hamby thinks I didn't respond to him, I'm sure he'll point it out. I, personally, didn't think he was making an argument at this point.. but rather just an observation.. a subjective observation which I can completely understand.
*edit: I did, however, even in my sarcasm, respond with my own person observations on things we were speaking of. So...
Yeah! No TRUE Scotsman puts sugar in their porridge, afterall!
Yeah! Those Scientologists aren't isolating anyone! THEY CAN STILL GO GET ICRE CREAM WHENEVER THEY WANT DAMMIT!
Yeah! Blows my mind! I mean, why would anybody who thinks that the world was created in 6 literal days 6,000 years ago by a genocidal lunatic of a deity who wants to burn them forever but just might stay his hand if they kiss his ass and avoid the dread SIN cut themselves off from people who would tempt them to break Mr. God's rules?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
It's in there. Would you like me to point-out the verses for you?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Were you actually going to defend your position? Or were you just going to sit there being snide all night?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Explain how the fallacy was applied. I didn't say "true christians were not this way." I merely shared my experience.
Learn your fallacies.
I find it hard to believe that Tom Cruise is "isolated."
Um. I don't know, I suppose you'd have to ask those that believe that. I don't believe in such a way, and so have little interest in substantively responding to the question, especially with you.
But only slightly less known is this, never get into a battle of wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line.
I would rather you be intellectually honest.. but seeing as, from my experiences with you on this board, you have shown yourself to me not to be capable in all cases.. I would only say this, you can bring all the verses you want, and I can probably substantively respond--but I really don't care to expend more time responding to you then I am right now.
I don't know. I suppose being snide all night is fine with me.. at least when it comes to responding to you.
See: Dishonesty.
You didn't 'merely share your experience' at all. You accused Hamby of 'painting braod strokes', and then used a personal anecdote to imply, 'See? Us TRUE Christians don't act that way!'
Tom Cruise is one of the most isolated people in the world, actually.
Oh, boo hoo! Kevin won't play nice like the other kids and doesn't pay lip service to people's idiotic claims just because they speak with pleasantries and try to laugh them off.
Get real. Your Bible is a joke, and the notion that a magical deity is out lingering in the void is retarded. Jesus never was, isn't coming back, and won't be blasting anyone with bolts of lightning.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
He's so taken in by Scientology that he hangs around with Scientologists, hires Scientologists, and avoids family and freinds from before his time in Scientology. His time with "WOGs" (Scientology speak for non-Scientologists) is kept to a minimum, and his time in public is usually followed up by a recovery period at the Celebrity Center.
Have you seen the video "Anonymous" posted? They've turned the felow into a jibbering, incoherent idiot. The internment camp style isolation isn't nessesary, you just need to make folks think they'll lose out on the magic if they get involved with people outside the organization.
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Nope. Not once. Never, ever would I have been intellectually honest enough to ask that claims be falsifiable and testable before they hold any water...
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Good point. I probably shouldn't have used the phrases "broad strokes" but rather just pointed out that my experience with the churches I attended did not fall into the characterization of Christians that he described.
But using the phrases "broad strokes" does not imply "look Hamby, there are two groups of Christians, true christians and false christians--what you have described is true christians."
Few arguments that could have been inferred from my statement could be more of a reach to find a strawman than what you have done.
Not surprised, just pointing out.
I disagree.
Are you trying to mock me? You need more "boo hoo"s, I do cry a lot.
Ya.. think of the electric bill those bolts must create.
I guess I can see where you're coming from. I just understood "isolation" as more "forced isolation" or "coerced isolation." But doesn't scientology deal more with "self-improvement" then any after-life type of hell thing? So I guess i always looked at it, at least with respect to Tom Cruise, as more a guy obsessed about improving himself through what scientological methods.. and so, he chooses to isolate himself.. in the same way others go away to meditate.
It's hard for me to think of it as "forced" or "coerced".. considering he has millions of dollars, is a powerful actor, and in the past 5 years has made.... 5 movies? I think. Seeing as he was not the director or the producer.. his ability to control who the majority of people on set were.. is hard for me to believe.
In anycase, I realize now that "forced" or "coerced" were not necessary assumptions to make regarding the statement.. apologies all around.
Ya.. he's a bit odd. Definitely.. IMO. A shame to. A good actor, IMO. Hard for me to separate the two personas now.
Er. Okay.
See Multiple Uses of Strawman Within 30 Minutes by Brown, Kevin
...So, what was the implication behind your anecdote, then, Rhad? Were you just penning-up autobiographical notes for our amusement?
You want to claim that your aren't using it as an argument against Hamby - yet why the Hell else would you have written it down?
Jill already nailed this one. I don't have much to add.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
See: Total bullshit.
You accused me of 'not once being intellectually honest'. This is a curious charge from someone who makes baseless claims about a deity, but let's put that aside. I responded by calling you out on this claim... and then you call that a strawman?
Do you even fucking know what a strawman is?
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940