Yes and no. I'm proud of the freedoms, at least when we actually have them, but as to our current government and the way most other citizens are (religiousity, lack of knowledge, extreme conservatavism, etc. ) I'm actually ashamed to be American right now. Maybe the recent elections and the big one next month will help change things, but I'm not too optimistic. I did hear a political analyst say this election may be the end of the conservative era (in the way the 1980 election was the end of a liberal era. ) Hopefully he's right.

Pats fan? Did you cheer for Darth Vader in Star Wars and for The big red eye dude in Lord of the Rings?

I consider myself patriotic... actually I consider the separation of church and state tabling I do with the group to be one of my most patriotic activities.

No.

I am no patriot. This is no country worth fighting and possibly dying for. The well-intentioned promises of being the land of the free and home of the brave died somewhere/sometime ago. Probably right after they were made.

I didn't need to read Howard Zinn to figure that out either.

Patriotism is equivalent to geographical racism. I hold only prejudice against canadians. lol. j/k

When one declares themselves to be the best country, it immediately informs the rest of the world exactly what it thinks of them.

It's as if we refer to any other nation we are debating in the U.N. assembly as "That one."

I could never be that kind of person.

Citizenship being an accident of birth, I don't really care. I don't think there's anything special about my country apart from it being mine; my territory, my extended tribal faction. It's worth defending for no other reason--certainly not any maudlin bullflop about freedom or justice--but that reason is enough, just as my family being my family is enough. Outside of extraordinary circumstances, I'd probably feel the same way about another country, should I have been born into that one. The love of a country--a nebulous congregation of people sharing laws and geography--is incomprehensible to me. I do, however, consider myself a better (not to say more honest, but more flattering) representative of my country than 90% of the people out there for the simple fact that I READ BOOKS.

Vividly.

Like you, I do not mourn the demise of that site.

definition of patriot - "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests"

I guess I don't fit the definition.  I don't support the authority of our government, and only some of the interests.  I do like the ideals generally espoused in this country - freedom, liberty, equality, etc.- but I don't see these ideals actually becoming reality here.  I would love to be a patriot and find it depressing that I can't really say I am one.

Maybe I'm interpreting this in a broader sense than the definition implies but every time we obey a law are we not supporting the authority of the country?

It seems to me like you would only be protecting your own self-interests  when the law is in your interest or the penalty is such that avoiding said penalty is preferable to the benefit of (insert regulated action here).  This is not always the case, is it?

Supporting, perhaps.  Endorsing, no.

I'd sell pot if it wasn't illegal.  Lots of money in it, and I don't care for the stuff, so no temptation to smoke the profit.  The only reason I don't sell pot is that I don't want to go to jail.  I don't support the law.  I just follow it for fear of my own freedom.

i would argue that it is somewhat mutually exclusive to be an atheist and patriotic. at the core of being an atheist is the recognition that faith or anything that impedes your ability to question or doubt is negative. patriotism though admittedly usually to a lesser degree means that you have some amount of predisposition towards your country; that is an obstacle to objectivity.

don't misunderstand that does not mean that i don't think america has a lot of potential and it does not me that i am not motivated to everything i can to make as great of a country as possible. but i am not patriotic.

patriotism, nationalism, theism are all informed by faith.  faith is an attempt to make not thinking a virtue.

fair enough. but my larger point is that the many of the same arguments against theism and faith can be used against patriotism. 

and to be honest i am an antitheist so as such i should more accurately refer to myself as an antipatriot. and to prophylacticly avoid any fears that does not mean i am in anyway aggressively against america.

Heh. On the other hand, if it were legal, it wouldn't be quite as profitable.

Still, this is one particular law that I have ignored my entire life. As a child, I was force fed lies about weed just like jesus and santa and so many other things. As I grew up, I found that 99% of all these lies were lies in fact. At which point, I lost respect for society and its ability to be reasonable. At which point, I cared nothing for the law. Though I got very good at concealing my activities, since I also have no desire to spend time in prison.

Not that I can recall, but my point stands. Governments make something like 90% of the profits of smokes. And the majority of the cost of weed is due to its illegal status.

I'm not really sure, but I've been keeping my eyes open for the answer the last few years. The primary reason we didn't decriminalize marijuana(not make legal, but decriminalize) in 2005(or thereabouts) is thanks to our neighbours down south, who threatened to lock up the border if it happened. There was actually a month or two where cops stopped arresting people for possesion(they took away their weed, but left them alone as far as the justice system goes) until the government could make up its mind. It was an election year, and unfortunately the bill died while the last Liberal government was making up its mind. Yet at the same time as all this, we are becoming one of the more smoke-free countries on the planet. Smoking is not legal within 9 metres of a public entrance or roofed area in the vast majority of the country. As yet, I've not seen the two paths converge, but I'm very interested to see what happens when they do. I'm hoping a balance is struck, because the process of criminalizing cigarettes is merely driving them into the black market. I remember hearing about smuggling going on while I lived in B.C., but when I moved to Ontario the government had killed it by dropping taxes on smokes. Those tax breaks have been repealed, and the vast majority of smokers now buy smuggled smokes for a fraction of the commercial value($10-15 a carton compared to $65+ a carton). But there are a lot of "black and white" world views in health and government today, and I'm not banking on my hopes.

No. In fact, by and large, I detest how North American countries are managed - and I detest how much of the public actively encourages this mis-management. Why?

^^ This ^^

We just had an election up here, you guys are having one down there. What was John McCain's #1 platform (next to appealing to the cowboy in everyone by declaring himself, 'The MAVERICK!')?

'The Straight Talk Express.'

Consider the implication of such a platform. It effectively says, 'There's right and there's wrong, and anything in-between is just bleh.' Fellow Canadians, take a look at our own election coverage (especially the debate). Every time a hard question was posed, an opponent was expected to essentially whip-out a clever two or three word answer or a straight-up yes or no, with any further explanation treated as 'double-talk'. Yes, there's such a thing as dodging around a question; there's also such a thing as demaning unreasonably simple answers to complex problems, and that's what we have right now.

Worse, the public then effectively decides the same approach should be taken to much more complex subject matter (like, oh, I dunno... science).

That aside, I find patriotism in general to be repugnantly dogmatic. Arguing about how awesome your country is for it's principles is like arguing about how awesome Christianity is for Jesus's moral messages; the implication, then, would be that you couldn't find such principles anywhere else, which is absurd.

That's 11 trillion. And I don't think you'll have to pay it off. The United States has spent the last 30 years borrowing copious amounts of money from foreign nations to maintain their spending habits. The only way that the US will be dug out of their remarkable hole is if someone buys the debt. The only people who would possibly want to buy off the American debt are the Chinese. After all, that guarantees them a large share of American assets. After all, just a few weeks ago, the Russians basically purchased Iceland. Eventually, foreign investors will just end up purchasing the United States (this is great for me!). The Americans don't want this to happen. I imagine that the short term preventive measure will be to print more money, which will just lead to inflation, and eventually the inevitable will occur.

You guys probably should have thought of this before the debt clock ran out of numbers.

I've spent years trying to explain to people that it's not just the American government.  As individuals, we have been living on imaginary money for a long time.  The government is a mirror of the people.  Most Americans feel like it's their right to own two cars, a big house, lots of land, a boat, and a summer home in the Hamptons.  What they end up with is three mortgages (two on the first home and one on the summer home), three year leases on two vehicles, two flat screen TVs on credit from Circuit City, and a personal line of credit over ten grand.

I've said it enough times before, I'm scared for the future of America, and I'd really like to leave, but at the least, I own most of my house, all of my car, and my restaurant is paid off.  I don't make jack shit since the economy went south, but I don't owe anything either.  My goal is to be completely out of debt within a couple of years.  That way, even if shit goes completely stupid, I at least have a place to live, and whatever money I make can go to food instead of the credit card company.

Basically, the American standard of living is a lie.  The average American with a nice apartment, nice car, and lots of cool toys can't actually afford all of that.  If the stock market corrected to what it's actually worth, that would be scary.

     I have to say that I am whole heartedly not a patriot. I'm 22 years old, attending college. There is nothing that I see in this country that I would fight for, much less die for. Don't get me wrong this country has some good points but I personally believe that the bad out weighs the good. I personally believe we are in a country with the illusion of freedom. Granted, humans as they are today could not handle true freedom as the country would kill itself, but for a government to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body? Where is the freedom in that?

     Is this really the "Land of the Free" when a government has the power to tell it's entire nation, "You cannot do this or you will be put in a cell for a determined amount of time" for things as trivial as smoking a joint?? Or even prostitution! Now don't get me wrong, i'm 100% against human trafficking, or any person forced into prostitution against their will, but the general idea of it. The fact that a man or woman cannot offer sexual pleasure and be paid for it simply because they are being paid for it? Suicide for crying out loud! It is illegal to commit suicide! Are these people serious? I know this is a little harsh but if someone has made up their minds to jump off a building, bite the bullet, or ingest a mass dose of pills the last thing that will be on their minds is "damn I wonder how long my corpse is gonna be in jail for this."

   Thats like passing a law stating "If you decide to leave this country and giving up your citizenship for good then we're going to take away your citizenship for good!"

   I understand that laws are important and necessary. I can go through a law book and agree with a lot of what is said. Laws against theft, murder, rape... things along those lines. But when I look at some laws and see that anal sex is illegal, in one state spitting on the street is illegal, gay/lesbian marriage is prohibited. It drives me insane. What right does any person have to say that you can't indulge in certain forms of sex between two or more people? What right does any person have to say that two people of the same sex can't marry? What ever happened to "all men are created equal"? ..oh but wait.. that one was never upheld to begin with anyway so thats a moot point.

   The truth of the matter is, I detest humanity as a whole. Now I do not make any prejudgments on any single person, that is not to say that I don't judge people. I judge every individual person based on their actions and their personal actions alone. When I say I detest humanity, I mean humanity over all. When I look at it's history, when I look at different nations including America, when I think about the never ending sea of human stupidity it makes me cringe. Without that love for humanity, patriotism goes right out the window with it.

Haven't seen you in a while. Nice to see you're posting again.

Herd mentality: yes
Community mentality: no

You hit the nail on the head (the top part ) about the nebulous nature of the patriot concept. I was watching a video clip from one of the conservative ladies (I've lost her name) talking about how people were "anti-America". Whenever I hear people talking about patriotism as a *thing* I always cringe. If I am against America, un-American, un-patriotic, what does that even mean? Even saying someone is anti-America, what exactly does that mean? It implies that someone is against freedom, peace, love, or whatever other cliche you want to add on there. Is that the case? In the case of religious psychos who like killing people...probably.

In the case of Bill Ayers and his crew, there was a lot going on. He was certainly a violent radical which is it's own special kind of problem, but was/is he anti-America? I think he was against the patriotic idea of America. They were against the compulsory herd mentality. But were they against all of those actually good things? Like the freedom, peace, etc etc? Not likely. They were fighting for something that mainstream folks just can't comprehend. The desire to push this whole patriotism slogan is just a display of how well the media and government understand their people. We're as stupid as the day is long.

McCarthyism was, I think, the greatest example of patriotism run rampant in our countries history. That psycho had us running around chasing our tails, everyone searching under the sofa cushions for "patriotism". Lo and behold, no one could find it. However we did make a good play at causing as much harm to each other as we could, short of hitting each other with hammers.

Thanks for reminding me that sometimes things I remember are from 20 years ago.

It isn't even about me wanting to get high.  I don't care for the stuff, personally.  It's just been nice to know that the whole world isn't buying into the "War on Drugs."

A couple more points for Will and Josh.  (Wasn't that a TV show?)  Anyway, I'm not knocking credit as a whole.  I'm knocking a system where credit becomes the foundation for an overly inflated standard of living.

Josh, I would like to point out that as nice as it may feel intellectually to think rich people are going to get theirs, I've noticed that in most gigantic economic crises, the poor suffer the most.

But that's the point of credit. Indeed, of all banking. I think what you mean is "derivatives". That harmless looking word allows normal American Wall Street schmucks to become Magical Wizard Kings.

"What am I betting on now, oh mighty Financial Wizard?"

"You're placing a hypothetical future order on the future value of a hypothetical capital investment!"

"Oh most Mighty Financial Magician, you make me feel soooooo special."

I have no quarrel with futures (that is, a bet placed on the future value of corn or wheat as a farmer's insurance against price changes), but when these guys get together and invent new kinds of ways to frame something simple (Cf. "sub-prime mortgage" derivatives), that's criminal. Actually treasonous. I think "treason" is an excellent way to put it, since you really are screwing the whole country all at once unleashing bullshit like that.

If ANYONE in the United States is un-patriotic, it would be the guys trading securities they knew were purely paper. They made out like bandits, just so you know. it's the states, find one of them and sue the shit out of them!

Mildly off the patriotism talk...

Been to the gas pumps during this latest drop? People quit driving all over this hell's half-acre because it was too costly. Some of them got so comfortable not driving that they probably won't change the new habit despite oil going back to the price it was when we had a growth in demand.

Besides that...

Who has the furthest to fall?

The poor are essentially used to it. I know this. I'm not as dirt poor as I once was, but that is a testament to my weakness not my perseverance. I accepted it as fact that I could not defeat ergo I must join. I'm using the system and the backs of others to keep myself above the suffering. I have some debt and I pay. However, when the system really corrects itself... don't think I won't be the first to PILE ON and put the keys on the counter or in the ignition and walk away.

You become conditioned to 'wanting' while 'needing'. Since we don't have enough money to buy mirrors we must look around at the environment in which we live for the cause of suffering. I looked and found what my perception, reasoning capabilities, and compassion pointed to as the cause for suffering. It wasn't humanity or environment. It was plain ol' ideology.

Religious, political, philosophical ideologies taught by parents; propagated by children; perpetuated by society. Capitalists are capitalists because they are conditioned by the ideology. I see this as a pat example of determinism. Right from the first time daddy gives you a dollar for an 'A+'

I also know that every group of poor people has their limit of belt-tightening.

Some of the greatest instances of human 'snappage' have occured in times both better and worse (relatively speaking) than this little blip of recession.

I called this current downturn back in April when the jewel of Tennessee capitalism saw its first negative month in 25 years. Wait until March '09. All the 'stimulus' and 'bailout' won't help the rich or pseudo-rich when the poor begin top feel comfortable with their new belt sizes. I'm sorry to say that even our Barack might not have the wherewithal to stave off the societal 'punctuated equilibrium' that I am predicting.

I can hear all the bullshit there is about the top 5% paying the most taxes to support the rest of society. One thing remains... what if the other 95% choose not to buy anything from Mr5% anymore? What if Mr5% can't find enough of the 95% to make more crap for profit? What if Mr.+Mrs.95% decide to move in their extended family and share what they already possess? What if Mr.+Mrs+Uncle+Aunt+Grandpa+Grandma+Brother+Sister+Cousin95% need something? They send the adopted black sheep child95% to go get just what they need from Mr5% at the point of a weapon. OR they produce it themselves using Mr5%'s old sweat shop for their own use and not his.

I'll leave it there before I get too preachy and nihilistic.

I think people will begin caring more for each other than they do for their country sooner than we think.

In any case, one could point to the fact that my own political ideology can be viewed as harmful as well. It becomes a question of lesser 'evils' - hurt the masses or hurt the rich.