Fellow Americans - Do you consider yourself a Patriot?
Offline I'm curious what other Atheist Americans think about the question, are you a patriot.
I'm not here to judge anyone that doesn't. I would just like to hear your views.
The short version for me is yes I am a patriot. I love my country, and the fundamentals it was founded upon. I love the melting pot that America is, and the freedoms we have (even if some are being infringed upon, and some seem to be illusionary.) Most of what I despise about this country are things that are imposed on us by people who try to subvert what the founding-fathers set up, or who try to revise history. I often wonder how far things will get out of hand before people stand up to the near theocracy gaining hold, what will it take, what will we have to lose. The other fundamental thing that has to change if America is to buck the historical trend of the mightiest nation falling, is the power wielded by the special interests and lobbyists for corporate America. I think capitalism is a good system, but checks and balances need to be used to prevent what has happened here lately. We have the rich corporations getting greedier than ever, and causing a recession that hurts us all.
Not sure if Thomas Jefferson or Howard Zinn said this but:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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Well, this is basically what I'm trying to say, but I mean more than that, too. I think it's fine to get credit to buy something big like a house or a car. You go into the bank and say, "I make 30k a year. I spend 25k. I want to buy a 20k car now, but I only have 3k saved." The thing is, you make enough money to pay for the car out of what you genuinely make. However, if you buy that car, and now you're at spending 28k, and you buy a couple of rooms of furniture, and that puts you at 31k, and you start living on credit, that's a really, really bad idea. Sure, you might make more money in the future, but that's... well, like you say... betting on a future. When you start manipulating second and third mortgages to maintain a lifestyle, you're doing essentially the same thing as the big banks, just on a simpler level, wouldn't you say?
The thing is, if everybody lives like that, everyone is living on imaginary money.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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I get less and less patriotic the more religious morons and conservative asshats I hear from. Hopefully with a more liberal administration things will improve. Most people that think this is the best country in the world are just ignorant. Unless you're a Christian extremist or wealthy you'd be much better off in Europe, Canada or Australia. And for people who want to go off on me for criticizing this country full of asshats, fuck your stupid inbred right-wing idiot ass!
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Yes, and when banks do it, it's just as stupid as when individuals do it.
We've been doing that for more than 500 years! The Medicis refined it! The banking system by its very nature is only backed by a small fraction of actual capital, and that's not a criticism on my part. The genius of that system is undeniable: more people having access to capital is the only way to create a middle class. Otherwise, a middle class wouldn't have the ability to build the connections and alliances available to those with hereditary wealth. No loan-based banking system, no middle class. It's that simple.
After you've decided that you're going to use such a system, though, whatever currency you use will devalue over time (inflation). It's not a high price to pay for creating a middle class, but it does allow for behaviour that would risk the health of the economy (that is, the stability of the middle class) should people take it "too far". That's because the value of the currency is largely arbitrary, and only has value in relation to other commodities or currencies.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
I like living here. It's not perfect by any means, but honestly, we don't know what poor is. I mean OF COURSE there are impoverished, unhappy people throughout the country, but to be blunt as a whole we are doing damn well comparatively.
In India children cost less than livestock. Female genital mutilation is illegal but widely practiced in many parts of Africa, especially Egypt. Murder and torture are often deemed "honor killings" in parts of the middle east.
We have a pretty adequate amount of protection here, freedom and law-wise. So yes, I'm proud to be a citizen, though I'm by no means blindly patriotic or convinced this is the best country on earth.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Compared to a lot of the rest of the world we've got a pretty good gig. Honestly, if we stop to look around us and stop being so self absorbed from time to time we'll realize that we have a pretty cush life. I've got a low paying job and I'm just this side of poverty level but I've got an apartment that doesn't leak, a TV, a computer, and I can eat pretty much whatever I want. Sweet!
But really that doesn't change the nature of the discussion. All we have accomplished here is to say that the status of this country is better than being jabbed in the eye with a sharp stick or being dipped in lava. There's always something worse than what is going on, it can always go downhill... no matter where you are. That doesn't make the state of affairs good, just because it could suck more than it does. When I think of ideas like patriotism I always get a mental image of people sitting down and thinking "aaah we've arrived in paradise, I'm a patriot now".
That's pretty much the same as hanging a sign around the neck that says "I'm the result of a ban on abortion"
I love America, but not blindly and will criticise any politician or policy I see as a detrement to freedom, including those of my detractors.
I love the fact that I can buy my favorite beer without the fear of some health nut or fundy making a law saying beer is evil. I love the fact that I can say, "Jesus is fiction" without fear of being imprissoned for it. BUT, in protecting that freedom comes with the responsibilty of empathy in recognizing that I am capable of the same range of emotions as anyone else and must allow the same to others in order to protect my own freedom.
So am I a Patriot? Yes, in the fact that I love my country. But not in the same blind nationalistic theocratic crap that Muslim fundies sell in the East. Not in the monocromatic fascism of North Korea. Not in the "sport our Nazi flag or we will ostrsize you" Which is the same crap Christian fundies do when refusing to vote for a politician who doesn't wear a flag pin. That is not Patriotism, that is Borgism.
Patriotism should not squash dissent, it should protect it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Well said Brian, I like the positive spin.
Though it just goes to show how useless a term like patriotism is. It's like any of those other terms that can pretty much mean whatever you want them to, based on your own personal outlook. Which is why I frown on a term with as much power as patriotism being given any legitimacy. Horrible, horrible, things have (and will) happened while someone waved a flag. People get lost in ideas like patriotism like they do with religion. They're both trying desperately to make an imaginary state into something real... and they're willing to do *whatever* it takes to make their side win.
While I think it's beneficial to look at life with a positive spin, Patriotism is an idea that should promote terror, not warm fuzzies. IMO
Loving/being proud of one's country is one thing but you do get the morons that take it to the extreme - ie "my country right or wrong" "love it or leave it" - in other words if you criticize the country's government in the slightest you should go move to Iran/North Korea/whatever extremely unpleasant country they mention. Note this only applies to conservative governments. You should criticiz liberal politicians as much as possible. I like the way Al Franken put it in the "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" book:
Liberals love America like adults love each other - they love the country but want to change things when they are wrong. Conservatives love America like a 3 year old loves his mommy - America is never wrong and anyone who criticizes it is "bad" and wrong.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
It does scare me that the right almost threw this country into a hypocritical Nazi state with its Borgish demands that politicians hold bibles and sport an American flag. It is pathetic how they cant see that that is the same fascist behaivor that Hitler demanded from Germans.
Someone, maybe one of his family members, should write a book about his life SHOWING, that one can defend a country and the concepts of freedom without believing in a god.
I personally knew an atheist who served in Europe in WW2, he was an atheist then and died an atheist a few years ago. God belief of any kind is not required to defend the idea of personal freedom.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Thanks Matt, you just made my optomitrist a rich man. HINT HINT(Being silly here) but the font and color you chose is making me sqint. *rubs eyes*
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Couldn't be helped. I cuntpasted it from his blog (it was a light background and showed up well there. )
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
What? That is confusing. Are you saying that we should scrap the word? I can see that Muslim martyres are patriotic to their religion when they blow themselves up. And the same goes for Nazis who were patriotic to Hitler. But that is a Borg ish view of the word.
BUT, I see nothing wrong with protecting dissent mutually with the understanding that it does not have to lead to death when one dissagrees. I don't see how that promotes "terror".
Maybe I am missunderstanding you.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog