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Jesus died for my sins, without my permission?

Posted on: June 28, 2009 - 3:14pm

zoinbergs

Posts: 6

Joined: 2008-07-25

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Jesus died for my sins, without my permission?

Hi guys! I've been a lurker on here for quite some time now. Gotta love the intelligence this forum has to offer! Today I have a question that I cannot already find an answer to though. Perhaps someone can help me? Thanks so much if you can!

Okay, so I've been slowly forming this thought, and I was wondering if my logic is correct..

I am having a very difficult time accepting Jesus Christ as any sort of savior to me simply because his followers make this claim that he "died for my sins" -- but before I was ever given the opportunity to let (or not let) him do so.

I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life? What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins? (Assuming someone could even do such a thing in the first place.)

Where is my freedom of choice in all of this?

Of course we know what supposedly happens if I don't accept Jesus as my savior -- I go to hell, or at least not get into heaven. I'm more concerned about the fact that I was born AFTER Jesus apparently died for my sins though.

It just seems so unfair! Can someone help me with this?

Posted on: February 11, 2010 - 11:20pm #101

Atheistextremist

Posts: 5134

Joined: 2009-09-17

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Rev D

REVLyle wrote:

Thank you for your honesty concerning the question that has been before you for quite some time. You are right. It is beyond you and me to be able to determine to what extent the damage of sin is. Let's look at the two possibilities when it comes to eternal punishment.
1. There is no God - you have nothing to be upset about. People die and that is that.
2. There is a God - The Bible describes God as just and righteous. You and I, as you admitted, cannot possibly know the amount of damage a sin causes, but yet you believe you can know how long a person should pay for their sins (no one deserves eternity in hell). Those two statements are logically incoherent with one another. In a court of law, a jury attempts to assess damage before they determine punishment. You seem to think that even though you cannot possibly assess the damage of sin, you know the punishment. If God is who he says he is (and that is what I believe to be true), He knows both the damage and the amount of punishment. Who are you and I to say He is incorrect. We would be making that judgment based upon ignorance - as you finally admitted.
Do you really believe it is always wrong to harm people or torture them. Define harm or torture. We cannot even seem to do that as a country. Let's make it a bit simpler. Is it wrong to make people uncomfortable (that may be harming them) if they are at war with you and they have attempted to hurt your loved ones. Is it wrong to harm them? Do you simply allow someone to have their way and harm your family? Is it immoral for someone to harm another who is at war with you?
Tell me what it means to be essentially good. Would that be someone like you or me? I cannot speak to what you have done, but according to scripture, I have certainly messed up. I know I have stolen before. I have not treated my wife, kids, parents, friends, or siblings right all the time. (I have not even talked about what I have done to my enemies) I have lied. I have cheated. I have hurt (harmed) others. I have prejudices that I have enacted upon.  That just scratches the surface when speaking to what I have done and I have yet to speak about the things I have thought. So, who is this "essentially good" person you are speaking of?
Lastly, you asked if I would incinerate someone.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord (Romans 12:19). It seems clear that I am not the one to burn anyone. That decision belongs to the Lord. When it comes to eternal torment scripture states that God will be in charge of that issue. The book of Revelation makes it clear that God is the one who judges and enacts punishment in chapter 20. So, to answer your question, I will not be the one to enact judgment. It really is a trick question because as you stated before, it is beyond you or me.
1. If I answered "no" - It would be to acknowledge that someone is "essentially good." That is not what I believe and that is not what scripture states.
2. If I answered "yes" - It would contradict what you and I know to be true in the fact that neither of us could know if the punishment fits the crime.  It is beyond us. I would not attempt to punish someone when I couldn’t assess the damages.
Essentially what you are attempting to do is somehow establish that man’s sense of "right and wrong" is more just than God's. But as you have stated before, how can that be if man does not know the extent of the damage of sin.
Let me give you an example. Let's create this fantasy that you are obsessed with. You know, this world where a person just commits one or two sins and they are "essentially good." Let’s say that this person is a man who has simply lied to a woman. That is all. It was simply a lie. Without any other knowledge, you would say, "He is not so bad. It is just a lie. I will simply punish him with a slap on the wrist. His punishment is a $50 fine." You admitted that you could not know the damage of the sin, so you simply based the punishment on ignorance.
Now, you are let in just a little bit of the damage of the lie. He actually lied to his wife. He had the AIDS virus and he told his new bride that he had never had sex before and therefore; he had no STD's. (Actually that would be two sins . . . sex outside of marriage) Well, because he lied, his new bride now has AIDS and what do you know, she got pregnant and the baby is HIV positive. The woman's life will be cut short. She will not be able to watch her child grow up. The child will never marry and have children, because she has the disease and she doesn't want to pass it on. For her entire life she will be using very powerful drugs in order to extend her life. All of those drugs have side-effects which she will have to deal with her entire life. The drugs will cost her thousands of dollars every year. Perhaps she deals with depression because of the stigma that comes with the disease. The family name will stop with the next generation. The child will never know the love of a spouse. The trust in the marriage is broken. Perhaps a divorce occurs . . . I could go on all day with this . . . all because of a lie. But you think, this guy is "essentially good" and because of your lack of knowledge concerning the damage of his sin, you have now just fined a guy $50 for all this damage he has done. You are right . . . that sounds like justice.
That is one reason you have to get rid of God in your mind. If He does exist, then he knows the extent of people’s sins and as you can see, even one lie can have enormous consequences AND His punishment will fit the crime. But of course, people do not have only one sin. You know you have treated people wrong. You know that you have harmed people and what you are hoping for is . . . no consequences. Because of your fear, you must get rid of God. The Bible speaks to this issue in Romans 1.
There is another way to deal with this fear that you have . . . simply believe and trust in Jesus Christ. That is the good news, the Gospel. Jesus died on the cross and paid the price for our sins, but you have to accept the gift. What will you do with that? Will you reject it or receive it? Again, you have all the information - just like Adam and Eve. What will you do?

Personally I don't think a person should be in a lake of fire at all. And they certainly shouldn't be threatened with a lake of fire in order to lever them into believing an unprovable doctrine. Your toppling examples of evil including wars and HIV infections are too extreme for me. I'm not talking about grand sins on the psychopathic scale. I'm talking about ordinary things and ordinary men who would be destroyed by the guilt and shame of serious wrongs long before your monster god got his flaming talons on them.

Sure, you have your faults and so do I. And it sounds like you've learned from them, as have I. But by no means, unless you've killed or tortured someone, do I think you deserve the fire treatment. I would never press the incinerate button on your chamber in hell and I won't bow down to a god who your doctrine says will. The punishment should suit the crime when it comes to justice. Those who do harm should have to do reciprocal good in a process called correction - a thing that's obviously far removed from the welter of retribution the bible preaches.

Sinners don't even get to learn from their mistakes, they just get hell, forever. There's nothing just about that, be-ribbon it how you will.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

Posted on: February 11, 2010 - 11:31pm #102

jcgadfly

Posts: 6791

Joined: 2006-07-18

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REVLyle wrote:jcgadfly

REVLyle wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
REVLyle wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
REVLyle wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
REVLyle wrote:
You stated "no one on the planet deserves eternal torment." I asked you, "Based upon what authority do you make that proclamation." I am still waiting for your answer. I wonder . . . if you believe that no one deserves this eternal torment, can you tell the length of the effects from someone like Hitler? In other words, what was the cost for all the murders, torture, and death? Is it possible that the cost is infinite? Can you quantify all of the agony and hurt that he put on others. You seem to know what the extent of one's punishment should be, so I am curious if you can give me the extent of the damage he caused?

What sort of question is that for you to ask - you want me to define the amount of time people deserve in hellfire based on each sin? Stupid. I don't know and nor do you. The thing I do know is that merrily incinerating everyone from half grown kids to the elderly is immoral. Incinerating people, torturing people is immoral. I don't care what mistakes they've made. Harming people is wrong - that applies to everyone, including god.That's my rule. Don't deliberately fucking hurt people.
How about this. God's justice is perfect, you obviously believe. So, Rev Lyle - would you act as the agent of god's justice and press the button on the furnaces and burn a sinner? Just an average ordinary person guilty of typical everyday sins. You know the sort of person. A person who is essentially good but does not happen to believe in god. Just answer than one question. Would you Rev Lyle, incinerate one ordinary sinner yourself.
Yes or no.
Thank you for your honesty concerning the question that has been before you for quite some time. You are right. It is beyond you and me to be able to determine to what extent the damage of sin is. Let's look at the two possibilities when it comes to eternal punishment.
1. There is no God - you have nothing to be upset about. People die and that is that.
2. There is a God - The Bible describes God as just and righteous. You and I, as you admitted, cannot possibly know the amount of damage a sin causes, but yet you believe you can know how long a person should pay for their sins (no one deserves eternity in hell). Those two statements are logically incoherent with one another. In a court of law, a jury attempts to assess damage before they determine punishment. You seem to think that even though you cannot possibly assess the damage of sin, you know the punishment. If God is who he says he is (and that is what I believe to be true), He knows both the damage and the amount of punishment. Who are you and I to say He is incorrect. We would be making that judgment based upon ignorance - as you finally admitted.
Do you really believe it is always wrong to harm people or torture them. Define harm or torture. We cannot even seem to do that as a country. Let's make it a bit simpler. Is it wrong to make people uncomfortable (that may be harming them) if they are at war with you and they have attempted to hurt your loved ones. Is it wrong to harm them? Do you simply allow someone to have their way and harm your family? Is it immoral for someone to harm another who is at war with you?
Tell me what it means to be essentially good. Would that be someone like you or me? I cannot speak to what you have done, but according to scripture, I have certainly messed up. I know I have stolen before. I have not treated my wife, kids, parents, friends, or siblings right all the time. (I have not even talked about what I have done to my enemies) I have lied. I have cheated. I have hurt (harmed) others. I have prejudices that I have enacted upon.  That just scratches the surface when speaking to what I have done and I have yet to speak about the things I have thought. So, who is this "essentially good" person you are speaking of?
Lastly, you asked if I would incinerate someone.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord (Romans 12:19). It seems clear that I am not the one to burn anyone. That decision belongs to the Lord. When it comes to eternal torment scripture states that God will be in charge of that issue. The book of Revelation makes it clear that God is the one who judges and enacts punishment in chapter 20. So, to answer your question, I will not be the one to enact judgment. It really is a trick question because as you stated before, it is beyond you or me.
1. If I answered "no" - It would be to acknowledge that someone is "essentially good." That is not what I believe and that is not what scripture states.
2. If I answered "yes" - It would contradict what you and I know to be true in the fact that neither of us could know if the punishment fits the crime.  It is beyond us. I would not attempt to punish someone when I couldn’t assess the damages.
Essentially what you are attempting to do is somehow establish that man’s sense of "right and wrong" is more just than God's. But as you have stated before, how can that be if man does not know the extent of the damage of sin.
Let me give you an example. Let's create this fantasy that you are obsessed with. You know, this world where a person just commits one or two sins and they are "essentially good." Let’s say that this person is a man who has simply lied to a woman. That is all. It was simply a lie. Without any other knowledge, you would say, "He is not so bad. It is just a lie. I will simply punish him with a slap on the wrist. His punishment is a $50 fine." You admitted that you could not know the damage of the sin, so you simply based the punishment on ignorance.
Now, you are let in just a little bit of the damage of the lie. He actually lied to his wife. He had the AIDS virus and he told his new bride that he had never had sex before and therefore; he had no STD's. (Actually that would be two sins . . . sex outside of marriage) Well, because he lied, his new bride now has AIDS and what do you know, she got pregnant and the baby is HIV positive. The woman's life will be cut short. She will not be able to watch her child grow up. The child will never marry and have children, because she has the disease and she doesn't want to pass it on. For her entire life she will be using very powerful drugs in order to extend her life. All of those drugs have side-effects which she will have to deal with her entire life. The drugs will cost her thousands of dollars every year. Perhaps she deals with depression because of the stigma that comes with the disease. The family name will stop with the next generation. The child will never know the love of a spouse. The trust in the marriage is broken. Perhaps a divorce occurs . . . I could go on all day with this . . . all because of a lie. But you think, this guy is "essentially good" and because of your lack of knowledge concerning the damage of his sin, you have now just fined a guy $50 for all this damage he has done. You are right . . . that sounds like justice.
That is one reason you have to get rid of God in your mind. If He does exist, then he knows the extent of people’s sins and as you can see, even one lie can have enormous consequences AND His punishment will fit the crime. But of course, people do not have only one sin. You know you have treated people wrong. You know that you have harmed people and what you are hoping for is . . . no consequences. Because of your fear, you must get rid of God. The Bible speaks to this issue in Romans 1.
There is another way to deal with this fear that you have . . . simply believe and trust in Jesus Christ. That is the good news, the Gospel. Jesus died on the cross and paid the price for our sins, but you have to accept the gift. What will you do with that? Will you reject it or receive it? Again, you have all the information - just like Adam and Eve. What will you do?

Part one:
So many words to make Pascal's Wager. What if we're both wrong and another religion (or a flavor of Christianity that isn't yours) is right?
Part two:
If vengeance is truly God's then wouldn't a human threatening someone with that vengeance be the sin of implication of Godhood?
After all, one would be assuming that they knew the mind of God in order to make that threat.
Part three:
The fear comes from the believers in God - not from the ones who don't believe. Why should I believe in your God to calm a fear I don't have?
Or is it your fear I'd be assuaging?
Part one:
If we are both wrong - we are both wrong. I obviously do not believe that is the case. Well, neither you nor I can answer that question on this side of eternity. I have looked into other religions. I have looked into the history. I have studied theology. I have looked into NOT believing, but it simply did not work.  Other religions, including atheism, do not answer the more interesting questions and Christianity does. Let me give you just one example: As I asked before, "Did Hitler receive justice for what he did?" If I were an atheists or materialist, the answer would most certainly be, "No." AND YET, there is something in me that wants justice (that most certainly resides in you as well based upon what you have written). Christianity resolves this issue, because God is just and righteous, but he is also full of grace, mercy, and love. He provides salvation (forgiveness) for those who accept his payment for the sins we have committed and he provides justice to those who do not seek forgiveness.
Others have used this description, but I still like to use it - I am a reluctant Christian. I have been a part of this website for over two years, and philosophically I have yet to hear one good argument to abandon my faith. I constantly read books about and against my faith, and I know why I believe what I believe.
Part two:
I want to be sure, that I am reading your question correctly.
It is wrong for me to take vengeance upon another because that belongs to God. So, when I am treated wrong (as we all have been at times) and then I act out against the person who has treated me wrong and take vengeance upon another - I have:
A: Taken what God says belongs to him
B. Inserted my judgment in the place of God.
If you are implying that it is wrong for a believer to warn others of the vengeance of God, then you are incorrect. That would be like asking if it is wrong for a believer to warn you if you are about to be hit by a car. Do believers assume they know the mind of God?  Again, you must understand what believers believe. They believe in the God of the Bible. He is beyond comprehension. The Bible is the written word in which God communicates to mankind who He is, but not all of who he is. If I tell my children, "If you run through the house you will be punished." I expect all my children to abide by the rule. I would even expect my oldest to remind my youngest of the rule. He does not have the authority to punish the youngest, but he knows/understands my thoughts and my actions on the issue of running in the house. It does not mean that he fully knows me.
I know of no one, who is a believer, who would state that they know ALL about God. I do not even know ALL about my wife. I do not know the deep things in her mind. What I do know about her is what she has chosen to share. The same is true concerning God. God has told us (shared with us) how he has dealt with sin. He has also shared with us that there is only one way to be forgiven and that without Jesus Christ, one will pay for their sin through eternal separation in hell. So, it is not presumptuous to state - this is how God will deal with believers and how he will deal with unbelievers any more than it is presumptuous for my son to state this is how my father will deal with his children who run through the house.
I hope you are not asking this – “Is it wrong for believers to threaten hell?”  No believer can threaten hell. We do not control it. That is like me threatening you with a nuclear bomb. It is not mine to control. I do not have access to one. What is the point?
Part three:
If it (hell) is a fear that you do not have, then why are you worried about the person who will burn in hell forever. Sigmund Freud once wrote: "To fully live, one must resolve the problem of death. When left unresolved, one spends excessive energy denying it or becoming obsessed with it.” If you really do not believe in heaven or hell - then that is what you believe, but I think we have demonstrated that it is not possible for you to assert that the Christian God is unjust or wrong in how He punishes those who do not believe and seek his forgiveness. That assertion is based upon ignorance.
Your last statement is most interesting. The only way a human could calm the fear of hell, is to get rid of God. Just like Freud stated, which is what you attempt to do. But now you have created a sense of injustice. People treat other people horrible, and yet; many go unpunished. So, perhaps you have no fear of death, but how frustrating is it that you see all of these injustices all over the world, and yet; people never have to answer for what they have done. I am sure there are people who have cheated you in this lifetime, and yet where is justice? Why were they allowed to mistreat you and never have to pay for it?

Interesting - how hard did you look at other religions? Did you read their sacred texts or stop with "My pastor told me they's bad"? How many theologies did you study? I strongly suspect that it was around one. Did you study history from the viewpoint of other religions/cultures or just the white christian one?
As for the implication of Godhead - the point is that you are warning people of what the writers of the Bible said God would do as though they and you know the mind of God (whether they do or not is another matter). They claim it. And yes, God has told us how he has dealt with sin - hypocritically. He needed it, he created it. He put it into his creation and withheld critical information from the humans he allegedly made so they could be tainted by it. He created a pseudo-sacrifice and essentially blackmails people into accepting that they have to kiss up to him for eternity (otherwise it won't take).
For the fear - I didn't need to calm the fear. I simply didn't create it. Once I understood that the religion was based on guilt, blackmail and destroying one's self worth, I realized that I didn't need to make the fear to keep me down. For the sense of justice, I realized early on that it doesn't exist. Yes people have cheated me. As they were good Christians, they asked their God for forgiveness and it didn't matter anymore. Some of them apologized to me - most didn't. I forgave the ones that apologized and the ones that didn't because vengeance is a terrible thing to hold in one's mind.
Then they did it to me again. Being good Christians, I'm sure they got the forgiveness they asked for. then they found someone else to screw over because I no longer deal with them.

What would it matter if I listed all of the books that I read, would you then acknowledge that I came to a logical conclusion? How much time did you spend studying Christian theology (I am not talking about going to church) in order to come to your "conclusion" that it was not true?
By your second statement - I can see that you spent very little time studying Christianity. Christians do not believe that writers wrote about their view of God, but rather God wrote through them. If I told my son to write about me, and he simply wrote the words down on a piece of paper. My son did not write his thoughts about me, my son wrote my thoughts about me.
You need to read more of this thread before you post. God did not create sin (already been covered). God knew that man would sin (Already been covered). What was the critical information that he withheld from the humans? (Already been covered).  God blackmails people . . . hmmmm. So, when I tell my children, "Obey me or you will get in trouble", I am blackmailing them. Interesting.  Or perhaps you mean, Trust in me and I will save you or you will spend eternity in hell - So, if someone is hanging over a cliff, and I say, "Let me save you or you will plumit to your death," that is a blackmail. Even more interesting. I think you might want to define blackmail. If you are suggesting - God extorts something from you so that God doesn't punish you, then you might want to think a little deeper on that subject.
1. As an atheists - you don't believe in God therefore, you simply arrived because your parents had sex, there is no justice - so you have nothing to answer for concerning the wrongs you have done, and there is no punishment anyway.
2. As a theist - I believe in God. God is the one who grants all life.  He grants to you the very breath that you breathe. He puts rules (laws) in place that describe his character AND makes life better for you. AND WHAT DO YOU DO . . . you hate him.  There is a price to be paid for your rebellion and justice will be done (He is a just God), but he is still willing to save you. Hard for me to find blackmail in that reality.
If justice doesn't exist - then why do you have a sense of it. If there is no standard of justice, then why would you state that people were unjust.  Of course, it was the Christians who have been unjust to you. You guys are all the same. Ex-min wants to say that many of the Christians were the abusers and you have to proclaim that it was the Christians that screwed you and others.  As I stated before, there is no exclusivity in sin. I notice none of you guys claim that you have been the one to wrong people . . . Oh yeah, would that fall under "destroy one's self-worth." So, let me get this straight. It is OK for you to destroy another person's self-worth, but you should not be critical of your own life?
If justice does not exist, then why is it that you guys attempt to paint Christians as the most unjust. It is almost too funny that you would proclaim that justice does not exist, and yet; you proclaim to know what is just or unjust. If there is no justice, there is no standard, then all is relative, and therefore; those "Christian's" were just in their minds, and since your view of justice and their view of justice cannot be measured by a standard since it doesn't exist, they could not have been unjust. Why is your standard of justice right, if justice does not exist?

If you gave me a list of the books you read, I would likely read them also and we could have a discussion. I'm twisted that way.

I am aware of what Christians believe about their scripture. It has been said about every holy book in every religion. It is a trick often used by lesser known authors to lend credence to their own views.

I've read the stuff you claim has been covered - If your ignoring a counter-argument implies coverage, then yes you've covered it well. In reality, however, it's called dodging.

On the blackmail, you're only looking at half of it. If it was like "Let me save you or you will plummet to your death" - I'd have no problem. god's deal is more like "Let me save you or you will plummet to your death. But first, you have to sign over your house and your bank account and let me sleep with your wife. You'd better make your mind up fast - I can see you're slipping (while he's stomping on your hands)"

For the rest, it's the old "There are no morals without God" stuff that's been shot down repeatedly. You forget that you have forgiveness. That means you can do something against God and man->act really sorry and ask forgiveness while promising not do it again->get forgiveness->do it again when you wish/ Of course, you can always skip all that if you're an "under grace" Christian. The Law doesn't even apply then.

Do I hate God? No more than I hate the Tooth Fairy or Santa. Do I dislike Christians who use God to absolve themselves from responsibility for their actions and pretend to be superior because of their "humbleness"? Ok, maybe a little.

Have I done wrong? Yes. And I've had to apologize and make restitution directly to those I have wronged. Even then, there are some people whose trust I may never fully regain. How about you? You have the luxury of wronging people, asking God for forgiveness and expecting people to fully trust you because of it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: February 13, 2010 - 6:56pm #103

ex-minister

Posts: 1711

Joined: 2010-01-29

Offline

REVLyle wrote:Again with the

REVLyle wrote:

Again with the double standard. If I were to make statements saying that most atheists would love _______________, you would ask for my source.
Where is the survey that states that most fundamentalist want a theocracy or want us to return to biblical times. You have absolutely no research to back that statement. For someone who was supposed to be a fundamentalist minister, you certainly do not have a clue what the Bible says. Didn’t the crowds attempt to make Jesus king or crown him as their leader? Was it their choice or his? So if God does exist, you would suggest that man can force him to rule as king? The very fact that he is GOD would suggest that he would dictate when there was and wasn’t a theocracy. Even in the OT, when the people wanted a king, God allowed it, but no people group could force him to do anything.
What is amazing is that you accuse Christians of fear-mongering, and yet; read what you have written.  Show me this massive movement that desires to kill homosexuals or abortion doctors.
Is there a conservative movement happening? Absolutely, but it is not an anti-abortion movement or an anti-gay movement. The most recent election of a republican, Scott Brown was because of anti-government, fiscally-conservative movement. Scott Brown is a PRO-CHOICE republican.
Are you aware that there are atheists that believe theists should be separated from their families and committed to mental institutions? They believe that I should be charged with child abuse because I teach my faith to my children (you acuse me of abuse in your post). Instead of me having the right to teach my kids my beliefs, they believe it would be better for my children to become wards of the state while my wife and I are separated from them and from each other in mental institutions. Perhaps you would want that ex-min.  Perhaps others on this atheist site would support that agenda. Should Christians be fearful of that movement or belief.
You know, as a Christian there is no doubt that my worldview is quite different than an atheist, but what is most frustrating is that you have taken a statement such as "spanking a child" and then come to the conclusion that I support or encourage child abuse. I have indicated nothing of the sort. Go back and read. I stated that I have the authority to spank my child because it is within the law. Is child abuse within the law? I never stated that anyone should watch a child "take a beating" and not get involved.
Your only goal is to bash theism. You stated that you have seen the damage of people who do not spare the rod and immediately you refer to MANY religious people as the source of that pain. The majority (61%) of child abuse has nothing to do with “the rod.," it is neglect. That means that 61% of child abuse is educational neglect, physical neglect, and emotional neglect. When it comes to child abuse “by the rod” only accounts for 26% of child abuse cases. And while we are at it, are you defining child abuse by the law, or simply your opinion. Some say to raise your voice against a child is verbal abuse. Have you ever raised your voice against your 3^rd grader? If so, are you now an abusive father? Just as a spanking is within the law so is raising your voice or yelling at your child. Both could be taken to the extreme. You could verbally “beat” your child down. But that is not what I was suggesting and you know it.
Almost everything you have written is your perspective and not reality. Do just a hint of research and you will find that child abuse occurs everywhere? Theists, atheists, rich, poor, black, white, and every country deals with this. I wonder why???? Actually I know why. Because all of mankind is sinful. Ex-min., there is no sin that is exclusive to one group. You name the sin, and there are Christians and atheists who have committed them. Scripture could not be clearer about that point.
What I find amazing is that you are so ready to point the finger at Christians when it comes to abuse, and yet, this place that you volunteer . . . is it made up of tender hearted atheists?   Because statistically 17 out of every 20 workers that volunteer at the place that you volunteer are theists.
Let’s deal with your last few statements. You reject evil??? You may reject it, but your reality simply does not support it. What do you think happened to those children you are working with? Abusing people is a result of sin. So you can reject evil all you want, but you will have to reject it as you look into the faces of its victims.
Is preaching God’s word which clearly states that people are sinful, their hearts are full of darkness, and they hate the light . . . is that self-fulfilling prophecy? What you are essentially proposing is that people are basically good, and the reason they act bad is that they are told that they are bad. The real world doesn’t seem to uphold your opinion. I wonder Ex-min, how much time you have spent with your 3^rd grader teaching her to disobey, lie, or be selfish? I wonder, did she do those things because you told her she was bad? If you did, by your definition, you are an abusive father. If you did not, why did she act badly? Why is it that we must teach our children to share, obey their parents, and to tell the truth? Just the universality of sin speaks directly against what you propose. Evil crosses all lines. Children raised in the slums and children raised in the finest neighborhoods all sin.
Think back to the day when your 3rd grader rebelled against you. Was it because you had been telling her that she was bad? Come on ex-min, didn't you care for her, provide for her, clean up after her, rock her to sleep, gently wake her in the morning, take her on walks, feed her, hug her, kiss her . . . Didn't you do all positive things for your third grader and then . . . she disobeyed you or got angry with you, or didn't like your rule. Perhaps the first time you had another kid over at the house and the kids were surrounded by toys and yet she was selfish. Did you show her how to hit or bite another child? Did you spend a bunch of time teaching her those sinful actions? Did you put on video's where puppets taught her the vices of lying and cheating? Perhaps you think that she just acted like that because she was ignorant. So, once you taught her the difference between selfishness and self-denial she has never been selfish again. OR PERHAPS, she didn't know what a lie was and after you reafirmed her that she was a good person, you showed her the difference between a lie and the truth and from that time onward . . . she never lied again. That's great Ex-min. You really should write a book on the subject of parenting. Reality simply does not line up with your opinion.

(Assumption you live in the USA).

You would not like this country to be Christian? You would not want this nation to back to its roots as established by our Christian Founding Fathers? Post the Ten Commandments in public buildings. Protesting there is a war against Christmas. I hear so much of that I don't know how you are missing it.

I know a little bit about the Bible. Jesus said My Kingdom is not of this World. So, why are there so many Christians getting active in politics. Where did W's and Sarah Palin's support come from? Atheist? I think Christians should follow Christ's example and stay out of politics. Appears you agree with that.

Really you have never heard of a Christian killing an abortion doctor? Dude read the news now and again. How many atheist have killed abortion doctors?

You haven't heard of this movement? http://www.godhatesfags.com/

I think you have had your head in the Bible too much.

Am I aware there are atheist who want to separate theist parents from their children? Those atheists are wrong. That accomplishes nothing. But please provides those references I would like to read them.

You said if we saw you in public spanking your child that we had no right to get involved. I assume now you are saying that we can get involved if we see abuse. Glad we agree. Neglect is another form of abuse and its impact can be as damaging if not more.

Yes teaching a child he or she is evil is simply wrong. I did not teach my children that. When they MISBEHAVED I sat them down and talked to them. I did not have to resort to spanking. They grew up being great kids and I am very proud of them. We have a wonderful relationship because I listened to them. They tell me of their life. I have a wonderful granddaughter who has never been taught she is evil. She is bright and loving. You can tell she feels secure. You might have missed my statement that my oldest is a third grade teacher and not my 3rd grader. Actually I didn't have the problem with my kids sharing their toys. It was a loving environment to start with and their was no biting incidents. Perhaps teaching them they are evil would have corrected that.

Growing up with my extended fundamentalist family I saw lots of SPANKINGS and saw hostility and resentment that came out of that. It had the opposite affect that was intended. I heard often SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD. You cannot beat evil out of a child because it is simply not there. Seeing it is a delusion and has more to do with the parents low self-esteem, guilt, shame and anger that needs to be vented.

Yes, some of the volunteers are theist, but they don't preach hell and judgement. A number have questioned their faith. Some have left the church they belong to and joined a non-fundamentalist church. But that is strictly anecdotal and not to imply a statistic. Some also are atheist. But nearly all grew up abused.

I have seen incredible changes in children when they are not treated as sinners, but wonderful people. This is the most telling change in my life. How can acceptance of people, as they are, and not scolding them because they are evil make them a better person? With my fundamentalist background I want to reject that concept but seeing it year after year I cannot deny it. Abusing is not a result of sin. It is summed up briefly as Hurt People, Hurt People. That is all I have seen. I see no Devil sitting on their shoulder or in their heart as you might.

This is not how to live.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/

Posted on: March 4, 2010 - 9:33pm #104

Talonai

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I hope this helps

Your free will is in choosing to accept the free gift. One thing that sets true Christianity apart is that you do not have to do anything to earn God's favor; He already loves you. I think it is arrogant to think that there is some way that we could earn salvation for ourselves. It makes sense that the only way to attain salvation is to receive it for free from God. If you do not want to humble yourself and make Jesus your master, then you do not have to, but let me tell you from experience, the freedom and peace that comes with knowing God is worth giving up pride. You must know how ridiculous you sound by expecting God to ask your permission (you, one of His creations) to do anything let alone the greatest favor ever.

Posted on: March 4, 2010 - 11:40pm #105

jcgadfly

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Talonai wrote: Your free

Talonai wrote:

Your free will is in choosing to accept the free gift. One thing that sets true Christianity apart is that you do not have to do anything to earn God's favor; He already loves you. I think it is arrogant to think that there is some way that we could earn salvation for ourselves. It makes sense that the only way to attain salvation is to receive it for free from God. If you do not want to humble yourself and make Jesus your master, then you do not have to, but let me tell you from experience, the freedom and peace that comes with knowing God is worth giving up pride. You must know how ridiculous you sound by expecting God to ask your permission (you, one of His creations) to do anything let alone the greatest favor ever.

What's so great about accepting God's solution to a problem he created? He loves us so much he created the sin that he punishes us for.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 4:08am #106

Atheistextremist

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Gawd

Talonai wrote:

Your free will is in choosing to accept the free gift. One thing that sets true Christianity apart is that you do not have to do anything to earn God's favor; He already loves you. I think it is arrogant to think that there is some way that we could earn salvation for ourselves. It makes sense that the only way to attain salvation is to receive it for free from God. If you do not want to humble yourself and make Jesus your master, then you do not have to, but let me tell you from experience, the freedom and peace that comes with knowing God is worth giving up pride. You must know how ridiculous you sound by expecting God to ask your permission (you, one of His creations) to do anything let alone the greatest favor ever.

There's some core reason why I hate this dogmatic pap. I would be happy to make jesus my master, just as long as he promises to slap on the sorbolene before doing me the greatest favour ever.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 12:46pm #107

mellestad

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Talonai wrote: Your free

Talonai wrote:

Your free will is in choosing to accept the free gift. One thing that sets true Christianity apart is that you do not have to do anything to earn God's favor; He already loves you. I think it is arrogant to think that there is some way that we could earn salvation for ourselves. It makes sense that the only way to attain salvation is to receive it for free from God. If you do not want to humble yourself and make Jesus your master, then you do not have to, but let me tell you from experience, the freedom and peace that comes with knowing God is worth giving up pride. You must know how ridiculous you sound by expecting God to ask your permission (you, one of His creations) to do anything let alone the greatest favor ever.

I'll try that next time my kid misbehaves.

"I'm totally giving you a free choice about dating that boy, but if you *do* date him, I'm going to shoot you in the belly and let you bleed out. But it's totally up to you, no pressure! I love you! But I brought you in to this world and so help me I can take you out of it."

It would not be arrogant of my kid to tell me to fuck off.

I think you guys live in a scary place where you put such a monster on a pedestal.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 12:47pm #108

mellestad

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Talonai wrote:
Your free will is in choosing to accept the free gift. One thing that sets true Christianity apart is that you do not have to do anything to earn God's favor; He already loves you. I think it is arrogant to think that there is some way that we could earn salvation for ourselves. It makes sense that the only way to attain salvation is to receive it for free from God. If you do not want to humble yourself and make Jesus your master, then you do not have to, but let me tell you from experience, the freedom and peace that comes with knowing God is worth giving up pride. You must know how ridiculous you sound by expecting God to ask your permission (you, one of His creations) to do anything let alone the greatest favor ever.

There's some core reason why I hate this dogmatic pap. I would be happy to make jesus my master, just as long as he promises to slap on the sorbolene before doing me the greatest favour ever.

Lol.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 2:49pm #109

Talonai

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I see what you are saying.

The paradox of free will vs. God's control is one of the toughest things for me to understand also. The debate has been going on for hundreds of years between Calvinists and Arminianists over which is more strongly in control of history. I recently read Spectacular Sins by John Piper. It was very well written and tried to explain how God can use sin and evil to produce greater good.

Also, I dont think that the analogies that you guys have written in your responses are fair. God is giving us the chance to have something wonderful, not cruelly preventing us from doing something he just randomly doesnt want us to do. He gives us commands because they are in accord with how the world really works and not following them results in painful consequences. For example, if you lie, then you will have to lie more to cover up the lie. Then you will have to always worry about someone uncovering your lies and whether your lies' stories still match up. Eventually, you are enmeshed in a whole system of lies and it gets very stressful. Usually the lies are discovered after a while and then you have to face people's disappointment and distrust. Ive been in that situation and when i get there, I always wish i had just told the truth in the first place as God commands us to do. Sinning takes more work and effort than obeying.

When you ask why we should accept God's solution to a problem that he made, I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. I think you see accepting salvation as a negative or unpleasant thing. Frankly, I dont care what the punishment for not choosing to serve God is. It is a choice between something infinitely good and infinitely bad. And you dont even have to pay a huge price to get the better one. Its so easy to get, why not just choose the better one? It may be a horrifyingly severe judgement, but if all you have to do is say in effect " yes I choose the better life and not the worse one" why not just go with it?

The question of whether God uses evil to do good is a tough one for Christians too, but for me, there are enough other very solid proofs of it's truth that grey areas like this dont bother me that much. Im hoping I find out how it works after i die.

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 3:10pm #110

jcgadfly

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Talonai wrote: When you ask

Talonai wrote:

When you ask why we should accept God's solution to a problem that he made, I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. I think you see accepting salvation as a negative or unpleasant thing. Frankly, I dont care what the punishment for not choosing to serve God is. It is a choice between something infinitely good and infinitely bad. And you dont even have to pay a huge price to get the better one. Its so easy to get, why not just choose the better one? It may be a horrifyingly severe judgement, but if all you have to do is say in effect " yes I choose the better life and not the worse one" why not just go with it?

As the guy who asked this question, I don't think you understood it.

God created sin->God created the tempter and the temptation in the Garden->God created salvation after having to commit suicide.

Why would a loving God create sin and force mankind into it? Wouldn't have been more benefical to his creation to simply not create the need for his backup plan?

Oh, and give Pascal his Wager back.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 3:35pm #111

mellestad

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Talonai wrote: The paradox

Talonai wrote:

The paradox of free will vs. God's control is one of the toughest things for me to understand also. The debate has been going on for hundreds of years between Calvinists and Arminianists over which is more strongly in control of history. I recently read Spectacular Sins by John Piper. It was very well written and tried to explain how God can use sin and evil to produce greater good.
Also, I dont think that the analogies that you guys have written in your responses are fair. God is giving us the chance to have something wonderful, not cruelly preventing us from doing something he just randomly doesnt want us to do. He gives us commands because they are in accord with how the world really works and not following them results in painful consequences. For example, if you lie, then you will have to lie more to cover up the lie. Then you will have to always worry about someone uncovering your lies and whether your lies' stories still match up. Eventually, you are enmeshed in a whole system of lies and it gets very stressful. Usually the lies are discovered after a while and then you have to face people's disappointment and distrust. Ive been in that situation and when i get there, I always wish i had just told the truth in the first place as God commands us to do. Sinning takes more work and effort than obeying.
When you ask why we should accept God's solution to a problem that he made, I think you are making some incorrect assumptions. I think you see accepting salvation as a negative or unpleasant thing. Frankly, I dont care what the punishment for not choosing to serve God is. It is a choice between something infinitely good and infinitely bad. And you dont even have to pay a huge price to get the better one. Its so easy to get, why not just choose the better one? It may be a horrifyingly severe judgement, but if all you have to do is say in effect " yes I choose the better life and not the worse one" why not just go with it?
The question of whether God uses evil to do good is a tough one for Christians too, but for me, there are enough other very solid proofs of it's truth that grey areas like this dont bother me that much. Im hoping I find out how it works after i die.

Actually it is even worse than the examples we are giving. God created our entire being, including our nature and desire to 'sin' as well as defining sin. Then he cursed us for breaking his arbitrary rule. He created the entire system, from humans to the devil to heaven and hell. Sins which, by the way, are often arbitrary and do not hold up well in modern society.

Also...it is very easy for me to think of real situations where 'evil' happens and it benefits absolutely no-one. Good luck making a case for what good comes out of some girl with no family who gets raped, mutilated then dumped out of the back of a truck in the middle of Africa. Then she births a baby with severe defects out in the mud, and the baby only lives long enough to watch its mother eaten by wild animals, and then get eaten in turn.

Shit like that *actually happens*. It isn't fun to think about, but the contradictory nature of the Christian god being nothing but love is ridiculous, and you *really* have to reach to support it.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 4:33pm #112

Talonai

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jcgadfly wrote: As the guy

jcgadfly wrote:

As the guy who asked this question, I don't think you understood it.
God created sin->God created the tempter and the temptation in the Garden->God created salvation after having to commit suicide.
Why would a loving God create sin and force mankind into it? Wouldn't have been more benefical to his creation to simply not create the need for his backup plan?
Oh, and give Pascal his Wager back.

I also wish there was a different, better way for the world to work. How do you think God (assuming he exists) should have made the world in the context of free will, predestination, judgement, etc.? Ive discussed this with some of my friends and its possible that this was the best way for God to accomplish his objectives such as personal growth, true love and true devotion.

Sorry I didn't follow the pascal allusion. All i remember about pascal was his triangle from highschool haha

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 4:50pm #113

Talonai

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Ok i looked up pascals

Ok i looked up pascals wager and yeah that it pretty much what im saying. I guess we came to the same conclusion separately. The difference is that he built his decision on chance because before that he had been discounting certainty. I build my faith on historical, scientific, legal, experiential and anecdotal evidence. For me the decision is not only a good choice over bad, that is just a simple way to look at it. It is also backed by alot of other stuff.

also, thank you for responding more courteously. A lot of the other atheists on this site are just angry jerks most of the time.

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 4:58pm #114

jcgadfly

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Talonai wrote:jcgadfly

Talonai wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
As the guy who asked this question, I don't think you understood it.
God created sin->God created the tempter and the temptation in the Garden->God created salvation after having to commit suicide.
Why would a loving God create sin and force mankind into it? Wouldn't have been more benefical to his creation to simply not create the need for his backup plan?
Oh, and give Pascal his Wager back.

I also wish there was a different, better way for the world to work. How do you think God (assuming he exists) should have made the world in the context of free will, predestination, judgement, etc.? Ive discussed this with some of my friends and its possible that this was the best way for God to accomplish his objectives such as personal growth, true love and true devotion.
Sorry I didn't follow the pascal allusion. All i remember about pascal was his triangle from highschool haha

To answer that I need to know if you believe your God is omniscient - if you do, free will (or free moral agency) is impossible.

In any case, if creating a perfect system only to break it so he could offer himself to himself so he could fix what he broke is the best he could do, that doesn't say a lot for God.

Pascal's wager basically says that if we are unsure whether God exists or not, we should play safe and believe he does to avoid his punishment. It fails for multiple reasons.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin

Posted on: March 5, 2010 - 9:38pm #115

KSMB

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Talonai wrote:I build my

Talonai wrote:

I build my faith on historical, scientific, legal, experiential and anecdotal evidence.

More than half of these reasons are complete crap. There is no historical, scientific or legal evidence. Experiential and anecdotal "evidence", sure. That also the reason why there are thousands of religions and gods through the ages.

Posted on: August 12, 2010 - 7:13pm #116

1 Timothy 1 13 17

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LOVE

GOD made man not because he is a God of lonliness, but a GOD of love. He wished to have someone to express it to so He made us and built our lives up from day one to day none. When the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten (as planned), we became sinners and could choose whether to love GOD or not. Think like this: if you were married wouldn't you want your wife to love you by her will? Because GOD is all good we can't know him cause of sin. So, when Jesus died on the cross showing the Father's love for man, all sin was taken with him to hell paying a ransom. It baptized all who know Him with the Holy Spirit so all our debt to the Father is now paid by CHRIST who rose up on the third day, was wittnessed and arose to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. That means as long as we turn over our life to Christ and live in His name we are saved. If you don't want salvation just don't live for Christ but for yourself. In hope that you change your mind, from a former non believers point of view, give it a try. I never thought that I would give in to anything and I most likely won't be able to convey the message. But because of Christ, I'm no longer under sins control and am no longer afraid. For even when I had material wealth, which I dont have now, I am the happiest I have ever been.

Posted on: August 12, 2010 - 7:43pm #117

mellestad

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1 Timothy 1 13 17

1 Timothy 1 13 17 wrote:

GOD made man not because he is a God of lonliness, but a GOD of love. He wished to have someone to express it to so He made us and built our lives up from day one to day none. When the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten (as planned), we became sinners and could choose whether to love GOD or not. Think like this: if you were married wouldn't you want your wife to love you by her will? Because GOD is all good we can't know him cause of sin. So, when Jesus died on the cross showing the Father's love for man, all sin was taken with him to hell paying a ransom. It baptized all who know Him with the Holy Spirit so all our debt to the Father is now paid by CHRIST who rose up on the third day, was wittnessed and arose to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. That means as long as we turn over our life to Christ and live in His name we are saved. If you don't want salvation just don't live for Christ but for yourself. In hope that you change your mind, from a former non believers point of view, give it a try. I never thought that I would give in to anything and I most likely won't be able to convey the message. But because of Christ, I'm no longer under sins control and am no longer afraid. For even when I had material wealth, which I dont have now, I am the happiest I have ever been.

Please use the enter key. This is hard to read without line breaks.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.

Posted on: August 12, 2010 - 8:09pm #118

Beyond Saving

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1 Timothy 1 13 17

1 Timothy 1 13 17 wrote:

GOD made man not because he is a God of lonliness, but a GOD of love. He wished to have someone to express it to so He made us and built our lives up from day one to day none. When the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten (as planned), we became sinners and could choose whether to love GOD or not. Think like this: if you were married wouldn't you want your wife to love you by her will? Because GOD is all good we can't know him cause of sin. So, when Jesus died on the cross showing the Father's love for man, all sin was taken with him to hell paying a ransom. It baptized all who know Him with the Holy Spirit so all our debt to the Father is now paid by CHRIST who rose up on the third day, was wittnessed and arose to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. That means as long as we turn over our life to Christ and live in His name we are saved. If you don't want salvation just don't live for Christ but for yourself. In hope that you change your mind, from a former non believers point of view, give it a try. I never thought that I would give in to anything and I most likely won't be able to convey the message. But because of Christ, I'm no longer under sins control and am no longer afraid. For even when I had material wealth, which I dont have now, I am the happiest I have ever been.

When I divorced my wife I didn't condemn her to hell for eternity. Heck, we still get along as pretty good friends. So why does god see a need to send people to hell for not believing him? Also, using your metaphor of marriage, the whole point of the OP is that we never asked to marry god in the first place. I don't know about you but I believe marriage should be consensual.

How can you love a being that tortures people and makes people choose between being with him or with deceased family members who may have gone to hell? How can you love a being that will forgive any sin except for doubting his existence when there is absolutely no evidence he exists?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Posted on: August 12, 2010 - 9:26pm #119

ex-minister

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excellent

Beyond Saving wrote:

1 Timothy 1 13 17 wrote:
GOD made man not because he is a God of lonliness, but a GOD of love. He wished to have someone to express it to so He made us and built our lives up from day one to day none. When the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten (as planned), we became sinners and could choose whether to love GOD or not. Think like this: if you were married wouldn't you want your wife to love you by her will? Because GOD is all good we can't know him cause of sin. So, when Jesus died on the cross showing the Father's love for man, all sin was taken with him to hell paying a ransom. It baptized all who know Him with the Holy Spirit so all our debt to the Father is now paid by CHRIST who rose up on the third day, was wittnessed and arose to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. That means as long as we turn over our life to Christ and live in His name we are saved. If you don't want salvation just don't live for Christ but for yourself. In hope that you change your mind, from a former non believers point of view, give it a try. I never thought that I would give in to anything and I most likely won't be able to convey the message. But because of Christ, I'm no longer under sins control and am no longer afraid. For even when I had material wealth, which I dont have now, I am the happiest I have ever been.
When I divorced my wife I didn't condemn her to hell for eternity. Heck, we still get along as pretty good friends. So why does god see a need to send people to hell for not believing him? Also, using your metaphor of marriage, the whole point of the OP is that we never asked to marry god in the first place. I don't know about you but I believe marriage should be consensual.
How can you love a being that tortures people and makes people choose between being with him or with deceased family members who may have gone to hell? How can you love a being that will forgive any sin except for doubting his existence when there is absolutely no evidence he exists?

Beyond Saving, you hit the nail on the head. My wife I can see, touch and know. This god is what some people wrote about two thousand plus years ago. Christianity is freeze-dried and dead. Nothing new. This god had nothing to add except to hide.

"How can you love a being that will forgive any sin except for doubting his existence when there is absolutely no evidence he exists?"

Such a petty egotistical god.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/