HELLO!!! first post, independant thinker looking for likeminded!!! Heaven is worse than hell!!
Offline
Hello all independant rational free-minded thinkers!!! This is my fist time to the website, i was led to it after watching the crack me up Kirk Cameron debate on youtube. Im glad to see more and more people are becoming active in the war on irrational beliefs leading to harmful actions. This website is bountiful with info and discussions, so much so its overwhelming trying to get caught up with the curve of discussion on the site. So i decided instead of trying to read all the hundreds of forum discussions before i post, i would post a hello first while i continue to parouse. This is hello is to anyone, including thiests, but is especially directed to long term members of the site, who have been invloved the ongoing debates/discussions. First ill just tell a little about myself.
My name is Nate, Im 25, male, from Vancouver Canada. I was raised in an "end of days" Jehovah's Witness household although i never considered myself one even as a child. I remeber being 6 or 7 thinking everyone including my mom was a little nuts. I remember being red the stories of Noah/Abraham/Job and thinking they were all insane for thinking these stories were of any moral value at all, and just the fact they believed in them as absolutely true stories made me giggle even when i 6. As soon as i was literally physically big enough to refuse my mothers beliefs, i did, and was kicked out/left. As was my sister who was more on the fence throughout her teen years, not at all on the belief in these rediculous doctrines, but on the fence weather they were worth pretending to believe in in order to save her family and friends from disowning her. Ofcoarse she eventually made the right choice and now is married with 2 kids living a great life. I consider myself an atheist ofcoaurse in that i dont believe in any god, although i do believe in the possibilty of a god not to be confused with the plausibility of god, however simply based on my experiece/observations and years of internal thought and discussion i have concluded for myself that i simply cannot believe in a god.
So i have 2 points/questions i am opening to discussion, i dont know if the've been already discussed, im sure they have, but i would love to hear your views on these 2 matters.
1)-Thiests/"i dunno" friends/partners
My close group of about 5 friends ive known for many years are all rational independant freeminded thinkers, i would never presume to know exactly what they believe but they certainly do not except Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, and find all religous dogma laughably rediculous. New to our group is my current girlfriend and longterm friend you could call an "i dunno, i dont care" person. Which drives me nuts ofcoarse, but atleast her position holds no immoral beliefs. Now her friends have become frequent members of our weekend drinking nights. For years weve broke bread and drank together without ever the mention of god once. But for some reason the other day it came up. And i found out a little gem, her 2 closest friends that i have grown to care for and call friends, are catholic. And thru much verbal gymnastics admitted they believe im going to hell for my apostacy. I was saddened, saddened that 2 nice girls can be so immoral. As we continued to talk about their beliefs their ignorance began to bloom, they asserted such comments as "Christianity is the first religion" "The bible is the first book or piece of literature ever written by man" and "Your a scientologist" meaning they thought scientology was the scientific community. Ya, im not kidding, you cant make this stuff up, this was their belief system. My question is, how can i be civil let alone friends with people who not only believe i deserve to be tortured for an eternity, but spout all these rediculous claims as absolute truth, without aven having a clue what theyre talking about. I dont know if im strong enough of a person to be civil in the face of such immorality/ignorance.
2)-Heaven in worse than hell
While falling asleep that night this perspective of why living in heaven would be worse torcher than hell came to me and you guys have so many videos they never end ive seen maybe 50, so id like to know if this idea has ever been discussed on your show. So here it goes.
I was thinking what hell would be like for me if they're catholic beliefs were to be true just for the sake of it. I thought of my general understanding of hell to be a place where i am in constant physical pain, most likely some kind of excruciating burning sensation, for an eternal amount of time. This is vertually unconcievable, but i can somewhat imagine what that could be ofcoarse. Physical pain as ive known it to be in life a only but a close second in severity to mental pain/anguish, the loss of a loved one, a on going burning concience of past a immoral actions that can never be justified in your own ethical
mind. People seem to see heaven as the obvious better choice between the 2. I see things diffently now. The vast majority if not all of the saved human beings in heaven would have good hearted/moral/ethical loved ones being tortures in hell. Weather it was they're brother who was a geniunly humane athiest apostate, or they're son who was great man of great moral character but was gay, or simply any one who was good and just didnt believe because we
couldny using our minds, it wasnt a choice, it was because out logical minds wouldnt allow us to believe in fairytailes that in this hypothetical scenario and pargraph seem to have come true for the sake of discussion. Being assumingly mostly also good hearted people
dwelling in paradise in heaven, they would have the constant screams of their loved ones eating away at the very sanity/bliss/happiness they were supposed to be enjoying. An eternal life of hearing the unjust cries of your fallen bretherin tearing at your very soul day by day louder and louder knowing that while u toast champaing with your
fellow heavenites they are fealing physical pains u could never imagin. This mental anguish, this mind fucking torture would surely be worst than and external burning sensation that im sure would become the norm of existence in hell. Not that the burning would loose any of its strength, but that without dying from the pain, a state of complete
disasosiation with the physical might arise. The pain would be their but our minds would be to dead to feel it. Even though wed scream forever because it is the most reasonable bodily reaction to burning and we are in a sense alive, the norm/consistency of pain would be
somewhat numbing. Not standing up for what was surely wrong because they were affraid they would suffer the same terryfing fate would causing sever mental anguish and this however would get worse over time, unless ofcoasre they're memory and love for us is taken from them by god, which i dont know is any belief of any christians. How long would they last before
they crack, snap, and the thought that the powerful dictator everyones bowing to on the throne has the power to stop this abomination. How dare they think heaven as they define it is a pleasant place, if these will undoubtedtly be thoughts they cannot escape, are they saying
that they will just get over, get over these thoughts and visions of their loveones being tortured, are they saying that they'll forget about us. What a fucking twisted way of thinking. I would rather go to hell with all the great minds, and my friends and family, than go to heaven only to worship a needy overlord all day with a bunch of geeky sicifants while i think about all the injustices happening to my loved ones. I think that would be a greater pain.
So thanks for listening, hope i didnt bore you guys to much, when your around lots of these discussions, sometime you need a little intelectual ejaculation of thought.
Cheers...
Nate
- Login to post comments
Offline Welcome to the forum.
Don't expect too much from people on the topic of religion. They have typically had their minds made up long ago and it 'hurts' to put forth the kind of effort it takes to shake the nonsense loose.
I had some very good friends who asked me to be part of an Alpha Course. This eventually lead to them being ex-friends and if you click on the link and check it out you'll see why.
As a quick example we spent all of 30 seconds on the question "Is there a god?" at which point everyone fell about laughing and said "Well, of course there is!" despite my attempts at discussing evidence to the contrary.
Enjoy your time here, it's a lovely place to be.
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
- Login to post comments
Offline Oh my!!! EWW!!!! Theirs not many thigns that creep me out more than a bunch of jolly like christians getting together and persuing an education in ignorance. Bringing in new members, and children, it actually makes me sick to my stomach. Lets see if we can cover the coarse curriculum on their website quicker and more efficiently shall we.
- Login to post comments
Offline Howdy
Looks like you've gotten plenty of feedback re your questions. The only thing I'll add is that to have the serious conversation about religion and your children after you've had them is way to late. We all become very territorial with our children.
There are great minds, not including mine, that lurk here. And there is lots of really good information. But you'll need some good luck and diligence finding it. The vaults are huge and not organized as well as they could be.
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
- Login to post comments
Welcome aboard Nate, it's good to have you here. I too used the story of Noahs Ark as a pivotal moment in my belief. I was actually slapped on the hand with a ruler by a nun when I asked why god didn't know he would have to kill everyone on earth. And about 13 years old withdrew from my relationship with my mother as a result of religion. It's partly because of those experiences that I wanted to create this site in the first place. If we can stop parents from pushing this nonsense on their children before the age of reason we can save families. Religion is divisive in so many ways, it split us from our mothers. And as you noted, if it were true, it would split us from our loved ones when some go to heaven and some go to hell.
Anyway, welcome aboard, thanks for the love.
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
Please become a Patron of Brian Sapient
Welcome to the forum!
We hope you enjoy your stay.
....hahahahaha!!
I've always thought that someone, somewhere might make this connection because of the name, but I've never heard of anyone that was actually stupid enough to do it. That's amazing. Thanks.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
welcome to the forums, its nice to hear from another Canadian. I'm from the Toronto area. the two confused girls I would not call immoral at least not based on what you said about them so far. I would call them ignorant and unimformed.
Why don't you straighten them out on a few things, and only a few items to start with. Scientology is a religion invented out of thin air by a science fiction writer named L.Ron Hubbard. It has nothing to do with science only science fiction.
Since they are catholic you could ask them awkward question, like. The first commandment says "have no other god before me" what other gods is their god worried about. Why did their prince of peace walk about with armed bodyguards-Peter even attacked a Roman soldier on J.C. behalf. Why would any family put a teenage girl out of her house stick her on a donkey and march her 100 miles over rocky terrain for no apparent reason. A census or tax collecter(which historicly never happened in that time frame) wouldn't need her away from home anymore then they need you in Bethlaham.
Try those for now.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
The problem is it doesnt register. I ofcoarse straightened them out with the scientology issue and made sure they understood about the dianetics, e-meters, and evi aliens possessions, and that Tom Cruise is not a scientist, that he is a crazy person. We actually discussed Catholosism for a couple hours, and i went thru many of the things that are rediculous and dont sit well with me. But one thing i realised is that they in no way see their beliefs as irrational, they assert things with such force that are completely false, and they dont seem to have the mental capability to put it all together. I saw quickly a battle against these types is like talking reason with a giraff. Ofcourse they took some offense to the conversation as melow as i could be. My girlfriend being such a "i dunno, i dont care" type ofcaorse doesnt want me to talk about it, its so taboo. They were soon offended in the conversation when they started to look stupid, and it wasnt me doing it, i just let them explain themselves, and they did it. My question is, in a group where the subject is so unspoken due to its offensive nature to all parties (they think im going to hell, i naturally think they're insane), where important discussion of any subject at all not mind religion are never had and viewed as "way to deep", that obviously cannot even grasp the issues at all or care, a group that u should really be waisting your time on befriending because of common friends?
You said their not immoral, correct, i shoudln't have said "they=immoral". I did wright they are not immoral in nature at all, they are nice girls. But when they admitted they believed i was going to hell, their was a empty twinkle in their eye and pause of great silence as i waited for them to ponder on the implications of their last admition... aaaaaaaaaaand nnootthhiinngg!!! No reaction that led me to believe they could understand that this was discusting, no connection to the fact that to agree with an act is to not not agree with the act, their 2 and the same. This is a mental crime, although they cant be convicted in a physical court, i can convict them in my mind of the crime of agreeing with the actualization of my torture for eternity. I dont know how people can keep a straight face and be respectful when talking to these primitive cartoon characters.
"ONE MIND AT A TIME"
Yeah. Been there, done that.
Good ! That's the way to do it.
Well, befriending people is never a waste of time, imo. I have quite a few fundie friends, and I like to think that I'm having a good influence on them. They probably think the same.
I've had lots of conversations like the one you describe, and while it's true that talking sense to them can seem like a frustrating waste of time, not even trying would be worse. I've learned to have fun in those talks, without getting sarcastic or mean.
When the hell thing comes up, I usually dismiss the whole concept by telling them I'm not really into sadism.
Takes practice.
You gotta keep in mind that when you lose your cool and start shouting at them, they're going to feel "persecuted", which is just going to make them dig in their heels even deeper.
Anyway, don't let it get to you. I'd keep talking to those people. It may not look like it, but they are listening.
I ofcoarse will continue to be friends with them, my problem is that the way this conversation went, and the fact it was obvious they've never had they're beliefs questioned, i highly doubt they will ever want to attemp explaining their beliefs again, not to mind the fact that just bringing it up again would make them shut down now that they know the logical teachings they are facing, and the fact that i am not afraid at all to discuss it i think scares them on a level. So what you get is me having no free vocal defence against this belief in my/others eternal torture, not being socially aloud in this group to bring it up causes me to be immensely frustrated, as though i am conforming to the fact that their are more of them in this group and so therefore i should be quiet in order to not offend the majority and come off as an ass. How funny/strange/umbelievable it is that being outspokenly against the eternal torture of innocent people can actually make the speaker appear to be an ass. What an amazing job religion has done of this, its remarkable the power it holds.
Point is, their seems to be only 2 ways this can go, except their belief in the eternal torture of everyone i love as something i cant change and keep quiet, or remove myself from the situation remember i am dating their best friend for 2 years and known for 10 removing myself entirely would be ofcourse too drastic. These 2 options both leave me unsatisfied, i cant bring it up again it will cause to much havic, and these girls will shut down upon eny reentering the discussion. Its just so hard to get past the thought that while we play drinking games and laugh together deep down they believe were all going to hell. Its such a sick mental state to ponder/observe.
Speak your mind, feel free to be yourself and more importantly let the delusional ones feel uncomfortable in all social situations. Why do you feel awkward when they think you are going to hell. Make it LOUD and CLEAR there is no such place and they are wasting their time believing such foolishness. Get comfortable in your own shoes! Don't get frustrated, let them get frustrated.
Be sure to ask them often if they went to church like good catholics and made visitations and confessionals. I bet they don't go every Sunday and you should make them feel guilty about it. If they miss mass ask them if they are atheists now. In short pass the guilt along to where it belongs; onto the deluded.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
oh the contradictions in their life in regards to catholosism are so obvious. I mean their just regular girls, they have sex before marriage, they dont seem to have any problem with gay marriage, they dont go to church at all not mind allote this is what is so laughable, i mean i went thru it all with them, apparently just claiming to be catholic is enough for a free pass to heaven for them. Basically what im saying is it is very obvious from my girlfriend and her friends that i am never to bring up the issue again. Now im not one to be wipped in any way, or insecure in my beliefs at all. But I've never been in the situation like this that i have personal investment in these persons who are offending me, and really dont necessarily want to be shuned by a group of good people i know well no matter how ignorant they are, or how offensive their core belief system is to me. And that is surely what will happen if i bring it up again, it simply would be of poor taste in the situation.
So by being inherantly empathetic and compassionate towards their fragile feelings, i cant bring myself to bring up the issue again even casually they will all simply shut down. Now normaly i would simply laugh these types off, say whatever i wanted, been as strong with my words as i can be, and not cared to much what the outcome of our relationship would be because their was no relatiuonship to begin with. But these are friends, friends of years that i just found out think im going to hell, i mean i really didnt expect them to take that side when i asked them, I WAS SHOCKED, their such reasonalbe girls in most other senses. Bottom line is my right/freedom to express my taking offense to their position has been challenged by my giving a shit about them. Now i see its funny that their position is i and all my loved oned, and apostates around the world are going to hell, they are special and are not. I believe their is no hell, and even if their was i would protest against its immorality, i would fight god with everything i have to stop him from taking those two girls to hell. I wish only good things to come to good people, my compassion for their feelings keeps me from bringing up the issue again and if even let a little tidbit slip, im the insensitive one. Its equally comical and tragic. It actually discusts me that religion as such a great ignorant social shut down defense system.
The third way is to be an 'unapologetic atheist'. See my recent post: The word is: Unapologetic
The point is that you have done nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong with being an atheist and standing up for that. As long as you can maintain a foundation of intellectual honesty (i.e. not berating them, not degrading them, simply expressing your views honestly and forthrightly), then you can remain unapologetic till the cows come home. You may be tempted to call them idiots. Call their beliefs idiotic instead. There is nothing wrong with disrespecting beliefs. Beliefs are not people, they don't deserve a baseline of respect. Furthermore, people do not have a right to be unoffended. If someone takes offense at my opinions, that's their problem.
It is literally impossible to do anything without the potential to offend *somebody*. For some people, your mere existence as an atheist is offensive to them. Again, that is their problem. You've done nothing wrong, and you have nothing to apologize for.
It may take time to become comfortable with this stance. You may have to experiment, and dip your toe in the water before you plunge all the way in. But I do recommend jumping in. The water is very nice! The RRS is a pretty good place to experiment with different ways of expressing your position. Try responding to some of the Mailbag posts that Sapient makes (from emails from theists that he receives and then posts in the forums). Maybe the theist who writes them will never visit this site to reply back to you, but who cares? Try it anyway. It's good practice. Some, in fact, will respond, and you can see how they take it. It will give you confidence and you'll be able to figure out the difference between being unapologetic and being a rude jerk.
You don't have to shut up. You don't have to avoid them or shun them. You don't have to be an asshole. You can just say what you think unapologetically.
I should let you know up front that some (maybe many?) people have such thin skins that they will shun even mere unapologetics. No matter how plainly you state a fact, they will take it as a personal insult. Again, you do not have to apologize for this. That is their problem. You may end up losing these 'friends' because they cannot stand 'deep' conversations. I have met many such people, and seen many 'friends' turn their backs on me. Good riddance. If you keep up your unapologetic attitude, you will eventually meet those people who do not turn their backs, and who accept your opinions as opinions instead of insults. They will themselves have their own opinions, and your unapologetic attitude will rub off on them, and they will calmly state their differing opinions to you. You will enter into many interesting conversations, and nobody's feelings will get hurt, although you will strongly disagree with each other. These are friends worth having. They are everywhere, but sometimes they are in hiding. When I started being unapologetic in public (instead of just online), I ended up meeting so many cool and interesting people, whereas before I had been surrounded by shallow flakes. Being unapologetic is a good way of getting rid of the flakes and finding the gems. Don't be afraid to try it.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
Be aware that when someone is overly sensitive, this is very often a form of emotional manipulation. They get their way by throwing a fit, and you feel guilty and back off. This is an extremely common form of manipulation. Many people who do it don't even realize that they are being manipulative, but they are. My response: Get over it. Both sides. The overly sensitive person needs to get over their defensive feelings and realize the damage they are doing to the relationship. The person who backs off needs to get over their reaction to other people's feelings, and realize that it's not their fault; they are not responsible for another person's feelings.
It's difficult, I know, as I was/am often the same way, and as a result I was easily manipulated into being quiet with my opinions. Boy does it feel a whole lot better to take care of my own feelings and stop taking care of other peoples' feelings.
When you spend a lot of time taking care of another's feelings, you are in essence giving up control over to them. Of course we don't want to be callous jerks, but at the same time, we cannot control another's feelings, and we are not responsible for them. Simply maintain your own personal integrity, and your own personal boundaries (i.e. being aware of what is your own responsibility, and what is the other person's responsibility). If you maintain this integrity, you will no longer be controlled, or dependent, on what other people think or feel.
I don't see why you should have to bring it up yourself. If they never mention hell or atheism or any of their other silly beliefs again, then why should you bring it up yourself? However, if *they* bring it up, I don't see why you should keep quiet about your own opinions and how you disagree and think their ideas are silly.
I could actually agree with them if it was you who was constantly bringing up the topic of "Hey you, I can't stand the fact that you think I'm going to Hell." Again, boundaries. Why should you care what they think in their own private mind? That's really none of your business or responsibility. But as soon as they bring it up, in whatever way, *then* it's fair game. "Hey, I think you're going to hell." "That's a retarded thing to think. Hell doesn't even exist. The whole idea of hell is laughable and ridiculous." "Waahhh, you're hurting my feelings by expressing your atheist opinion!!!" "Too f'ing bad. You brought it up. I did nothing wrong. People who don't want their beliefs ridiculed shouldn't express such silly beliefs."
Now *that* is a fair game topic. If the mood strikes you to talk about religion in general, or some specific event that highlights the silliness of religion, you should not feel inhibited from talking about it in general terms. But if you are simply obsessed with what these girls think about you and hell, then give it up. It's not worth worrying over. Only when they actually express such beliefs would I think it's appropriate to confront them.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
your response has been the most helful yet to this situation and i thank you for it. I wouldnt bring up the hell thing again, i can get over what they believe in their minds even though smiling with me will agreeing with my eternal torture i believe to be a form of insanity, i can live with that.
BBBBUUUTTT! I actually just had a fight with my girlfriend today about this night, in which she stated "i had not right to defend this belief the her friends" admitting that when this came up, she believe i had no right to talk about it. This really scares me, i love this girl to death, known her for 10 years and although she is certainly not a deep thinker it has never really bothered me untill now. Because although i know her opignion of telling me i have no right to stand up for what i believe in is false, im scared that i am heading down a path to marriage and children with someone who is going to teach my kids that not thinking and doing nothing is better because that way you dont cause any ripples.
Having my kids learn this through teachings and observations sickens me, but that doesnt mean i love her any less!!! Its a touchy subject when your dealing with someone you love instead of some random person.
Great post, and welcome!
It's actually very common in places were scientology has little presence. I was probably only 8 or so when I was told that it wasn't what it sounded like, but I was probably 20 before I actually found out about dianetics and the like. Granted, it's a bit less expected from this generation, but if there aren't any scientologists around, and it's only mentioned once or twice in ten years, people do tend to think that it is science related. They just don't realise that it's science fiction, with aliens and shit.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Sounds like your problem is really between you and your g/f and not between you and those two girls.
Two things.
First, stand up for yourself before you get married to someone who expects to be able to control when you can and can't speak up. Remember the word 'boundaries'. By telling you you have no right to stand up for your opinions, she is stepping all over your boundaries. If you let her, she will not stop. She will expect it in the future.
I think your g/f probably dislikes confrontation. I have met many people who try to change the subject or get me to shut up whenever I contradict what someone else says. You know the situation. You're in a bar chatting with people, and someone says something patently false, like "evolution is just a big conspiracy, there's no evidence for it, etc.", and you say, "Wait a minute, that's not true. Do you even know what evolution is?" All of a sudden, people groan, and someone says, "Alright, let's not start an argument. Have you heard the latest gossip about Paris Hilton?"
These kinds of people are so afraid of 'arguments' and verbal confrontation that they are unwilling to go into any topic that has a right and a wrong answer. They often embrace ideas like post-modernism in an effort to let everybody have 'their own reality', and to avoid all meaningful discussion of any kind. To them, there is no such thing as truth, even the small-t kind. To them, arguments are pointless and uselessly disruptive. To them, it doesn't matter what you think, or what bullshit you spew, as long as the party is running smoothly with no confrontation of any kind.
Well, you know what? Screw that. We have *our* opinions too, and one of our opinions is that there *is* such a thing as truth, that there is only *one* reality that we all share, although we each have our own unique perspective on it. That right and wrong *do* matter. That bullshit should be called bullshit.
I think your g/f is trying to avoid a 'snit' between you and her two friends, in order to keep everything copacetic. This requires you to obey her rules, i.e. to shut the hell up.
I would say to you that it is absolutely worth your while to stand up for yourself here and say, "No, I'm sorry you're upset, but I have my own opinions, and I do not want to live my life hiding them as if there is something wrong with them. I'll maintain my cool, but I'm not going to shut up when they bring up the idea of hell, or whatever else. I disagree with those ideas and I think it's important to stand up against them."
What is she going to do? Dump you because you have an opinion? Which brings me to the second point.
Second, you must be absolutely sure that you are not being abusive or malicious when you enter into these confrontational discussions. This is the flip-side of the word 'boundaries'. You should not trample over other peoples' boundaries, just like you don't want them to trample over yours. As long as you maintain your integrity, taking care of your own responsibilities and leaving other people to take care of their responsibilities, then you will have nothing to apologize for in the end.
On the other hand, if you find it too hard to contain yourself, and end up insulting people directly (or indirectly via sarcasm or passive-aggression), or if you act threateningly, or in any other way over-step your boundaries, then you will not be able to maintain the high-ground. This is where rational discussions turn into irrational drama.
You don't need -- nor do you want -- to go there. "I think you are wrong." is just as effective, if not moreso, as "You're a stupid moron." Bone up on your knowledge of logical fallacies, so you can say, "That's an ad hominem argument." rather than "How dare you call me that, you bitch!"
Stick to the facts and the evidence, and you'll do fine.
Like I said, as long as you maintain the second thing, keeping it rational and relatively civil, then you are on solid ground to do the first thing, standing up for yourself and your opinions.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
Whew, almost lost that last post. Got disconnected between edit screen and clicking the post button. Thank goodness for the Back and Forward browser buttons. I was able to reconnect and then press Forward to re-post what i had written. Usually I copy stuff before I hit post, but I forgot this time. Lucky lucky. I fucking hate writing out a long post and then losing it.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
Well you nailed it on the dot, she cant stand confrentation. She simply wants everybody to get along, which we never didnt, we just had a heated debate. Its just shes so "I dunno" its clear shes done no critical thought on the issue of hell. It just bothers me that if her friends said they agreed with rape under certain circumstances like if the girol was a criminal or hooker then rapeis ok that she would probably have kicked them our of her house and surely couldnt continue being friends with someone who genuinly agrees with rape. I see no diference in believing in hell except most people who do dont seem to make the connection that were all ACTUALLY going their in their mind, and envision what that would like like/feel like for us. It boggles my my how people can agree with the existence/use of hell and be still taken seriously as people by their friends who they laim are going their. It just made me feel reel dirty when i realised how this all went down: Girl believes in hell and our torture for eternity, i tell her this is immoral and try to get her to picture it "dont you get it", everyone shuts down and shuns the discussion, it makes me feel dirty that im around people like that who can only be like this on the religion issue, any other issue would have been welcome and discussed freely. Honetsly it creeps me out, it came out of no where, and i was simply expecting so much more maturity and depth out of everyone on the issue, turns out i am the large minority when it comes to thinking these belifs should be challenged.
Thnaks for the help
Well you nailed it on the dot, she cant stand confrentation. She simply wants everybody to get along, which we never didnt, we just had a heated debate. Its just shes so "I dunno" its clear shes done no critical thought on the issue of hell. It just bothers me that if her friends said they agreed with rape under certain circumstances like if the girol was a criminal or hooker then rapeis ok that she would probably have kicked them our of her house and surely couldnt continue being friends with someone who genuinly agrees with rape. I see no diference in believing in hell except most people dont seem to make the connection that were all ACTUALLY going their in their mind, and envision what that would like like/feel like for us. It boggles my how people can agree with the existence/use of hell and be still taken seriously as people by their friends who they claim are going their. It just made me feel reel dirty when i realised how this all went down: Girl believes in hell and our torture for eternity, i tell her this is immoral and try to get her to picture it "dont you get it", everyone shuts down and shuns the discussion and i come out the bad guy haha aaaamazing, it makes me feel dirty that im around people like that who can only be like this on the religion issue, any other issue would have been welcome and discussed freely. Honetsly it creeps me out, it came out of no where, and i was simply expecting so much more maturity and depth out of everyone on the issue, turns out i am the large minority when it comes to thinking these belifs should be challenged.
Thanks for the help