Evidence either for or against a Creator?

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Evidence either for or against a Creator?

  I asked a question  about this and would like to hear any responses to this. Thanks 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100103113906AA30QsI&r=w


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Quote:No. The idea that

Quote:

No.

The idea that complexity infers a creator is drawn from a false analogy that complex artificial objects infer a creative intelligence. The so-called 'watchmaker' principle.

The reason artificial objects infer their creator (man) is that they are contrasted to the natural world, whereas there is no possible reference for the natural world as it is all encompassing. So the complexity of natural organisms is not evidence in itself of anything.
It is simply a logical falsehood used as propaganda by people who want to shield their beliefs. The belief has not come about by examination of the natural world. It is a pre-existing idea that is then used to fashion 'evidence' in it's own image.

Complexity may be amazing or awe-inspiring but this is still not evidence. It is an emotional association.

 

This.


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v4ultingbassist

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Quote:

No.

The idea that complexity infers a creator is drawn from a false analogy that complex artificial objects infer a creative intelligence. The so-called 'watchmaker' principle.

The reason artificial objects infer their creator (man) is that they are contrasted to the natural world, whereas there is no possible reference for the natural world as it is all encompassing. So the complexity of natural organisms is not evidence in itself of anything.
It is simply a logical falsehood used as propaganda by people who want to shield their beliefs. The belief has not come about by examination of the natural world. It is a pre-existing idea that is then used to fashion 'evidence' in it's own image.

Complexity may be amazing or awe-inspiring but this is still not evidence. It is an emotional association.

 

 

I would disagree with this.   If you discovered something alien,  and complex but it doesn't have a natural appearance,  and you knew nothing of its origin or creators. You may reasonably conclude that it was created by someone. 

 

 

  


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    What if something

    What if something like a satilite  from another galaxy and civilization,  crashed into our planet,  and parts of it  were still in tact.  You would recognize that it was created, even though you know nothing of its origin. 

     What does it matter whether a complex thing is of a natural or unatural appearance?   Its interesting to me that the most complex things are of a natural appearance, which is consistant with the idea of a Creator who has  creative ability that far exceeds that of humans. 


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v4ultingbassist wrote:The


v4ultingbassist wrote:

The reason artificial objects infer their creator (man) is that they are contrasted to the natural world, whereas there is no possible reference for the natural world as it is all encompassing.

    This is only a subjective opinion.   The idea that  natural things do not infer  a Creator.    I think  they do.  And so do some scientists who know a lot more than I do.

 

 

 

 

  


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 v4ultingbassist wrote:The

 

v4ultingbassist wrote:

The reason artificial objects infer their creator (man) is that they are contrasted to the natural world

 

      No it isn't the reason.   If all you do is   only examine  an artificial complex thing,  with no other considerations,  you can  reasonably conclude it was created.

 

 

 

 

  


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  My it was fun ripping

      I  don't care whether or not  a  thing infers a Creator.  What my assertion  is, is   that it is  a subjective opinion,  whether you conclude that things  are evidence for a Creator or not. 

    And I  can't tell you how many times I've heard theists and atheists  state that things are or are not evidence,  thinking they are expressing an objective  viewpoint! 


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fullarmor2 wrote:    What

fullarmor2 wrote:

    What if something like a satilite  from another galaxy and civilization,  crashed into our planet,  and parts of it  were still in tact.  You would recognize that it was created, even though you know nothing of its origin. 

     What does it matter whether a complex thing is of a natural or unatural appearance?   Its interesting to me that the most complex things are of a natural appearance, which is consistant with the idea of a Creator who has  creative ability that far exceeds that of humans. 

 

Nature and natural, by definition, cover anything that exists.  So finding these things and thinking them 'unnatural' is erroneous.  Also, you are presuming that what we would find could be created in the first place.  We could find a new substance (i.e. a new element) that wasn't made by anything sentient, but occurs in nature.

 

Also, all of this follows deterministic logic.  Read up on Quantum Mechanics.  Natural things may not be as deterministic as we'd like to think they are.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:Nature

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Nature and natural, by definition, cover anything that exists.  So finding these things and thinking them 'unnatural' is erroneous. 

 

     True,   but finding those things and concluding that they have been affected by something supernatural like a Creator,   would be reasonable,  say because you think that natural processes alone apart from a supernatural hand  in it,   would not have resulted in the most complex things we know.


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v4ultingbassist wrote:

 Natural things may not be as deterministic as we'd like to think they are.

 

       Thats a reason to think there is a supernatural hand which was involved in the universe.    A Creator may very well be the reason that is the case.


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fullarmor2

fullarmor2 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

Nature and natural, by definition, cover anything that exists.  So finding these things and thinking them 'unnatural' is erroneous. 

 

     True,   but finding those things and concluding that they have been affected by something supernatural like a Creator,   would be reasonable,  say because you think that natural processes alone apart from a supernatural hand  in it,   would not have resulted in the most complex things we know.

 

I am a physicalist. I think that supernatural, by definition, means non-existent.  So no, it is not reasonable to think that something supernatural is interacting with our world.


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fullarmor2

fullarmor2 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 Natural things may not be as deterministic as we'd like to think they are.

 

       Thats a reason to think there is a supernatural hand which was involved in the universe.    A Creator may very well be the reason that is the case.

 

No, it's reason to think humans don't understand everything.  It's reasonable to say 'we don't know' not 'god did it.'  Plus, we already call it quantum mechanics, no need to call it god.


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v4ultingbassist wrote: I am

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 I am a physicalist. I think that supernatural, by definition, means non-existent.  So no, it is not reasonable to think that something supernatural is interacting with our world.

 

Thats a subjective opinion.   Based on one other subjective opinion that certain things are not evidence.


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 Quote:I would disagree

 

Quote:
I would disagree with this.   If you discovered something alien,  and complex but it doesn't have a natural appearance,  and you knew nothing of its origin or creators. You may reasonably conclude that it was created by someone.

You're using the word "natural" in two ways, and conflating terms.  "Natural" in one sense refers essentially to all that is.  Anything consisting of matter/energy/space/time is a natural phenomenon.  "Natural" in another sense means "normal for earth."  If we found a thing that appeared to be an alien gadget made out of unknown substances, it would be very "unnatural" for earth, but it would be "natural" with regard to the universe... to nature.

There's a third way in which you could be using "unnatural."  You might mean, "giving the appearance of being created for a purpose."  This gets into how we discern that things have been intelligently created.  When an intelligent thing makes something, it is creating a tool.  That is, he is reshaping his physical environment for a purpose.  When we examine a watch, we see that it does something very systematic.  If we're clever, we note that its movements correspond extraordinarily precisely to the motion of the earth in our solar system.  We further observe that pretty much every component of the watch conforms to patterns that betray intelligence.  No observed non-intelligent processes have a reasonable chance of "randomly" creating even one component of most watches.  

This is in sharp contrast to life on earth, which gives every indication of being non-intelligent in origin.  I wish more people would actually study zoology.  Most competent biologists, given the supposed supernatural powers that God is purported to have, would design a MUCH BETTER life form than anything we find on earth.  Life is extraordinarily inefficient.  The human body is very poorly built.  We have vestigial organs that don't do anything but cause us to go to the hospital.  We have teeth that we'd be better without.  Our eyes have blind spots and don't adjust well to fast changes in brightness.  Most of us don't see very well to begin with.  Our hearing is poor.  We can only tell the very general direction of a sound's source in most cases.  Women's reproductive systems are all fucked up.  Men ejaculate from the same place as they excrete waste.  Our backs aren't designed well for supporting us for our entire life.  

I could go on and on.  A good engineer could build a better human.  If anything, the complexity of most lifeforms points either to an incredibly dumb creator, or blind evolution.

 

 

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v4ultingbassist wrote:  

v4ultingbassist wrote:

   It's reasonable to say 'we don't know' not 'god did it.' 

 

      That depends on your opinion about a million other things.

 

     


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fullarmor2

fullarmor2 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 I am a physicalist. I think that supernatural, by definition, means non-existent.  So no, it is not reasonable to think that something supernatural is interacting with our world.

 

Thats a subjective opinion. 

 

By definition, supernatural things do not exist in nature.  Any effect they have in nature results in natural events.  Since nature, as a concept, covers everything in existence, supernatural things are not existent in nature.  I don't see how this is subjective.


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fullarmor2

fullarmor2 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

   It's reasonable to say 'we don't know' not 'god did it.' 

 

      That depends on your opinion about a million other things.

 

     

 

It is not my job to justify a positive claim.  That lies with you. 


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Evidence either for or against a Creator? answer

 

If you discover an Alien object  either biological or inanimate the question has to be:- 


Is it from an intelligent species ?

For a machine  this would be fairly simple answer in that it was constructed.
As for a biological entity  and thus a life form , the assumption is that,  it evolved, as we have done

when Scientists discover Tube plants growing along the Atlantic Ridge , one has to ask  how are they able to
survive at such depths and what are they doing there .. 
but the answer is , they are simply a life form.

To ask why they are there , is  not a question for Science, in fact , asking why , is to ask why do so many life forms exist and others do not 




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Hambydammit wrote:This is in

Hambydammit wrote:

This is in sharp contrast to life on earth, which gives every indication of being non-intelligent in origin. 

 

 

    This opinion is based on  thirty nine thousnd other things that  are also subjective opinions,   Which can all be reasonably, perhaps more reasonably, seen differently.


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v4ultingbassist wrote: By

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 By definition, supernatural things do not exist in nature.  Any effect they have in nature results in natural events.  Since nature, as a concept, covers everything in existence, supernatural things are not existent in nature.  I don't see how this is subjective.

 

   Its is because you lack adequate  info,   to rule out the supernatural. All you can do is have an inadequate opinion about it.


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fullarmor2

fullarmor2 wrote:

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 By definition, supernatural things do not exist in nature.  Any effect they have in nature results in natural events.  Since nature, as a concept, covers everything in existence, supernatural things are not existent in nature.  I don't see how this is subjective.

 

   Its is because you lack adequate  info,   to rule out the supernatural. All you can do is have an inadequate opinion about it.

 

Then enlighten me.  Nature is nearly synonymous with existence.  To be outside nature is to be outside existence.


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fullarmor2 wrote: 

fullarmor2 wrote:

  inadequate opinion

 

That's a subjective opinion.  It's inadequate too.


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   I agree.   The theist

   I agree.   The theist and atheist  have opinions that are inadequate.   I make the point because both groups too often act like they got it all down pact.

   And thats deceitful on both sides and I don't like that.


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v4ultingbassist wrote: Then

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 Then enlighten me.  Nature is nearly synonymous with existence.  To be outside nature is to be outside existence.

 

      I think faith, hope, and love are  most important.   The knowledge we have is inadequate.


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 Yes my statement again is

 Yes my statement again is not enough.  You would have to come to that opinion for yourself .


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   But,  I know that for

   But,  I know that for the umpteenth millionth time,  we will  just agree to disagree.


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 Quote:Hambydammit

 

Quote:
Hambydammit wrote:

 

This is in sharp contrast to life on earth, which gives every indication of being non-intelligent in origin. 

 

 

 

    This opinion is based on  thirty nine thousnd other things that  are also subjective opinions,   Which can all be reasonably, perhaps more reasonably, seen differently.

Well... no.  This opinion is based on enormous volumes... hundreds of thousands... all scientifically and logically confirming the correctness of the theory of evolution.

If you see it differently, it's either because you're ignorant or illogical.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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This rather pompous position

fullarmor2 wrote:


Its is because you lack adequate  info,   to rule out the supernatural. All you can do is have an inadequate opinion about it.

 

Based as it is on absolutely no reproducible evidence and hinging on a book written by nobody knows who, applies far more impactfully on you, Fullarmor2.

What you are relying on is feelings going on inside your own mind and body. We've managed to move outside this.

Of course if you could deliver said information about the supernatural we'd at least consider it. Sadly, you lack information on it.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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The universe either was or

The universe either was or was not created. That is not a matter of subjective opinion. Evidence about whether the universe was created either supports, doesn't support or is neutral in regards to this question. It is possible for people to be mistaken about what the evidence does or does not support, but that doesn't mean that there isn’t a right answer.   


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Hambydammit wrote:If you see

Hambydammit wrote:

If you see it differently, it's either because you're ignorant or illogical.

 

   

      You don't believe that.   You know perfectly well that not all evolutionists are atheist.

     


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 Based as it is on absolutely no reproducible evidence and hinging on a book written by nobody knows who, applies far more impactfully on you, Fullarmor2.

What you are relying on is feelings going on inside your own mind and body. We've managed to move outside this.

Of course if you could deliver said information about the supernatural we'd at least consider it. Sadly, you lack information on it.

 

 

      You don't need that book  or any otherto think a Creator exists.      And you said  "what I'm relying on is"    ?   You don't know the answer to that.

   Also,  we do not view the said info the same ,    we have different opinions .


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RatDog wrote:The universe

RatDog wrote:

The universe either was or was not created. That is not a matter of subjective opinion.

 

      I disagree.  We lack  knowledge of the universe.  There is no way to be objectively conclusive  about the question of the existence of God.

 

     


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fullarmor2 wrote:RatDog

fullarmor2 wrote:

RatDog wrote:

The universe either was or was not created. That is not a matter of subjective opinion.

 

      I disagree.  We lack  knowledge of the universe.  There is no way to be objectively conclusive  about the question of the existence of God.

 

     

The problem I have is that, for so many, "God did it" is a "We can stop looking and thinking" point.

If we lack knowledge, why stop looking?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 Now remember,  I'm a

 Now remember,  I'm a Universalist.   Just because I think I have the grace to believe in God,  that does not mean I judge those who do not.  I believe all people will receive this grace to believe in God.  Either by faith as I do now. Or,  you will believe after you see with your eyes.    


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fullarmor2 wrote:  There

fullarmor2 wrote:

  There is no way to be objectively conclusive  about the question of the existence of God.

 

Then why aren't you agnostic?

 

Also, we should make a distinction.  You are arguing in the context of philosophy, I presume.  Most here work in the context of science.  In the context of science there are objective statements.  If you work in the realm of philosophy you can effectively argue the subjectivity of everything.  Most here will look at the word 'evidence' and associate it with science.  You will need to convince us otherwise that science is the strongest method for finding truth.


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fullarmor2 wrote: Now

fullarmor2 wrote:

 Now remember,  I'm a Universalist.   Just because I think I have the grace to believe in God,  that does not mean I judge those who do not.  I believe all people will receive this grace to believe in God.  Either by faith as I do now. Or,  you will believe after you see with your eyes.    

That's why I wrote "for so many" and not "you".

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The god of gaps

fullarmor2 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 Based as it is on absolutely no reproducible evidence and hinging on a book written by nobody knows who, applies far more impactfully on you, Fullarmor2.

What you are relying on is feelings going on inside your own mind and body. We've managed to move outside this.

Of course if you could deliver said information about the supernatural we'd at least consider it. Sadly, you lack information on it.

 

 

      You don't need that book  or any otherto think a Creator exists.      And you said  "what I'm relying on is"    ?   You don't know the answer to that.

   Also,  we do not view the said info the same ,    we have different opinions .

 

Strikes again. Sometimes it disappoints me I was not born 1000 years later when our store of knowledge was greater and some of these holes were filled in but as you say, everyone is entitled to their opinion and ultimately, neither side can carry the argument on where all stuff this came from. In your case, how do you get from believing on the basis of "Where did we come from" to believing in a particular god - if you there is a particular god you favour? Do you rely on additional evidence or are you agnostic?

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jcgadfly wrote:The problem I

jcgadfly wrote:

The problem I have is that, for so many, "God did it" is a "We can stop looking and thinking" point.

If we lack knowledge, why stop looking?

     That is a valid point.    Believing or not should have nothing to do with our passion to learn.


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Atheistextremist wrote:In

Atheistextremist wrote:

In your case, how do you get from believing on the basis of "Where did we come from" to believing in a particular god

 

     v4ultingbassist   asked that to.   Thats a great question.    I use to believe  all the typical mainstream Christian  responses to that question.   Then two years ago I  started shifting towards Universalism.  Thats where I am now.    I  backed off of religion because of what your alluding to,  or partly for that reason at least.   Not belief in God though.   Now I think that knowledge or truth that can be known only by faith can be seen in many different belief systems.    Truth to me , whether its sometning we can prove or not is of God.


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   How can we say that

   How can we say that only the things that we know or can prove are truth? 


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fullarmor2 wrote: Or,  you

fullarmor2 wrote:

 Or,  you will believe after you see with your eyes.    

 

       I'll go further.  I think you are where God wants you to be regarding belief in God.     God's plan for you to believe,  it may not be until twenty years from now.  Or until after you die.   You will see and believe.    And if so,  God fully expects you to think its all hogwash in the mean time.


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There is a fundamental

There is a fundamental problem with the assumption that a complex thing requires a creator. What created the creator? And what created its creator? 

Whereas the assumption, supported by much observation, that apparently complex things can arise from much simpler things, does not run into this problem.

Even the growth of an individual human being demonstrates the growth from a single, completely non-conscious single cell to a far more complex thinking creature, by processes which are all physical.

The evolution of life has similarities.

So the 'naturalistic' position has far more going for it. 

Unless you assume that the creator can be less complex than its creations, which allows us to start with some something very simple, like quantum particles.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:There is a

BobSpence1 wrote:

There is a fundamental problem with the assumption that a complex thing requires a creator. What created the creator?

 

       If I  believe the Creator is omnipotent and eternal I don't have that problem.


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fullarmor2 wrote:BobSpence1

fullarmor2 wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

There is a fundamental problem with the assumption that a complex thing requires a creator. What created the creator?

 

       If I  believe the Creator is omnipotent and eternal I don't have that problem.

Except that we do not observe anything like that in reality, and we have an alternative explanation that doesn't require such a being.

'Omnipotence' is irrelevant, the creator of the universe would need to be powerful, but not necessarily omnipotent.

So you think the idea that something like a God has simply always existed is more reasonable than a non-concious 'sea' of formless quantum energy as a possible origin of Big Bang Universes?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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fullarmor2 wrote:   How

fullarmor2 wrote:

   How can we say that only the things that we know or can prove are truth? 

 

Um, what 'things' can be true but not known?  It can't even be put up to the test of truth if it isn't even known in the first place...


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BobSpence1 wrote:So you

BobSpence1 wrote:

So you think the idea that something like a God has simply always existed is more reasonable than a non-concious 'sea' of formless quantum energy as a possible origin of Big Bang Universes?

 

   No.    I would try to harmonize it,  like a theistic evolutionist would. 


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v4ultingbassist wrote: Um,

v4ultingbassist wrote:

 Um, what 'things' can be true but not known?  It can't even be put up to the test of truth if it isn't even known in the first place...

 

     There are things in the universe we don't know.  With  a bunch of truth pertaining to those things.   For example,      some discovery that was made,  and the knowledge it led to.


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fullarmor2 wrote:BobSpence1

fullarmor2 wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

So you think the idea that something like a God has simply always existed is more reasonable than a non-concious 'sea' of formless quantum energy as a possible origin of Big Bang Universes?

 

   No.    I would try to harmonize it,  like a theistic evolutionist would. 

OK, so why do you introduce the unnecessary idea of a God if you acknowledge that it is not more reasonable than assuming a Universe without such a Creator being? Save the effort of trying to 'harmonize' it.

It is always going to be possible to come up with a concept of a God which can be consistent with the discoveries and theories of science, the question is why do you prefer to 'believe' in something for which there is no more evidence than for an infinite number of other hypothetical entities?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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The Burden of proof is not

The Burden of proof is not on those who don't believe in an invisible, omnipotent force of creation, any more than it is to prove that there are no magic invisible dancing elves in your living room... The burden of proof is on those who claim something invisible *does* exist...

 

I am all ears....


fullarmor2
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BobSpence1 wrote:OK, so why

BobSpence1 wrote:

OK, so why do you introduce the unnecessary idea of a God if you acknowledge that it is not more reasonable than assuming a Universe without such a Creator being? Save the effort of trying to 'harmonize' it.

It is always going to be possible to come up with a concept of a God which can be consistent with the discoveries and theories of science, the question is why do you prefer to 'believe' in something for which there is no more evidence than for an infinite number of other hypothetical entities?

 

        We lack the   necessary kind of evidence that you desire.      But you cannot say that you will not discover God at some point,  as you require.   Also you  cannot say that God does not give people grace to believe as I have received just because you don't have it yet.  

   The idea of God is not unnecessary ,  Thats your subjective opinion.  There are other intelligent people who  see a Creator's hand in things,  and  at the same time they love science .  They have a nice balance.   I'm of the opinion that extreme positions are usually wrong.    Whether its the extreme position of a religious nut who denies science or the extreme position of  atheism only.  I think the truth lies in between the two extremes,    BALANCED.


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Rich Woods wrote:The Burden

Rich Woods wrote:

The Burden of proof is not on those who don't believe in an invisible, omnipotent force of creation, any more than it is to prove that there are no magic invisible dancing elves in your living room... The burden of proof is on those who claim something invisible *does* exist...

 

I am all ears....

 

      What I would call proof, subjectively ,   you will  say it is not proof,  subjectively.   Because although science does an awesome job,  it has not solved the mysteries of the universe yet.  Its interesting that a child can know the reality of God,   while science has yet to discover God.