He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

Thanks iwbiek for taking the time to write that out. 

I had started a self refresher course on the bible and this will come in handy. I will copy and paste it in a file named "nonsense".

As I'm sure you could tell I've gotten a little rusty on my bible "knowledge".  I don't know where the hell I got satan being loose for 1,000 years. lol   You can see how one can get confused in such a whirlpool of poo.

And once it got filed in my mind under nonsense it just got shoved back with all the other ancient myths that have no use in my daily life.

It's no wonder the bible doesn't come with a real summary. It sounds so silly and self-contradictory when written out in such a way that no one would ever read past the summary.

I'm still amazed at myself for ever believing in such rubbish.  But there was a time I believed in Santa Clause too.

You raise some good questions about the resurrection of the dead and the rapture.  I will get back to you on that.

I guess we may never get araujo's summary. Maybe he needed to study as well.  I thought Jean would at least throw his 2 cents in.  If for no other reason but to poke fun at me.

We'll see.  thanks again

Old Seer,

I have a couple questions for you  that are not meant to attack you or your group, but they don't merit any eloquent writing, so I"ll just be blunt.-

1. Why are you here?  I only ask because you speak as if you have some agenda. You've never started a thread of your own. Why not just spit it out and make an original post with a mission statement instead of posts here and there within threads that sound as if you are infiltrating?

2. Why is this group of yours so secret? Does it have a name and/or a leader or leaders?  Do you fancy yourselves as to be so vital to the way the world and the future that anyone here or any government agency would really find you worthy of any serious attention?

If you are worthy of such-why? and why can't you tell us? No harm in telling us if we don't know who you are.

3. You speak of "learnings" and "the book" and so forth. Do you have a written doctrine? I've heard you speak as if the bible was legit before translation. You constantly say "We believe" etc. I would think if you speak as if the members of your group agree on so much that you would all at least agree on one piece of literature that you could divulge.

4. What other types of forums do you and your group infiltrate (or whatever it is that you do)? Why atheists?

5. How did you come about this group? and surely someone had to start it?

I only ask you these things because of the sarcastic remarks i made to one of your posts and your reply.  I certainly do not find it worth the effort to go back track you thru past threads (none of which you started) to understand why and where you are coming from, when you are the one who speaks somewhat elusively.

I would think if you answered these kinds of questions then your posts may get better replies.

Or don't, -it's your story. I was just wondering.

ANSWER FROM OLD SEER:

1- I'm here at the request of the others of the team, because I am the one with the best wording ability to explain things. But that's not what your question is about--- I am here to let off the info from our studies. Yes -I am infiltrating but I didn't see it that way, but since you put it in that term I have to concur. There is a reason for this. We don't want to become part of any group, not that we think we're better then others, it's to keep a distance as not to be influenced. When becoming part of a group it is expediant to take on it's philosophies and beliefs. We don't want to be phonies by pretending to be compatible. Don't worry, it's not because others don't take a shower every day. Floks are just fine. The posts here and there are because it's an easier take off if from another,s input. Why not just spit it out--OK, but it would amount to writing another book as large as the dictionary. It would be to long of a posting. Why not start a thread of my own. ---I thought of that but-- I stated a thread ( The Seer,s Corner ) on a Christian site and it only produced a few posts. It was proven they weren't Christians. The questions I posed couldn't be answered. If they were Christians they could have answered them. They were stumped. The same may happen here. We don;t want to give the impression we think you're all stupid, which is another reason we are here, you're not stupid. I was told when assigned you here are good thinkers. What better floks to hand the ball off to.

2- Secrecy is a must. consider---the Apostles marched into Rome preaching a new religion--and got killed for it. Only two of us are public. If something happens to us there's others left. Once they (Apostles)were gone their religion disappeared with them. We're insuring that it stays this time around. This will be the last time around, the world cannot sustain another 2000 years of what's been going on. B-We reffer to ourselves as Guardians. It's nothing special, it' only because we have taken measure to guard what we know. Guardian is not a label or name- it's job/assignment that's understood. C- there are no leaders. We no longer are in need of being led. No one seeks authority or advantage over another within or outside the group. If we all understand the same it becomes impossible for one to lead, there's nothing to lead on. . We no longer are in close touch with each other. We are scattered throughout the country. I live in an RV and travel quite a bit, the others do the same.There's' no reason to be close anymore, the studies were completed in the summer of 1992. We are retired or close to. D- Vital- no, not to the world as it is, but vital to making sure one remains. E- Government: no danger from them at present. Bear in mind-it was civil government that killed JC and followers and a bunch of others. We will in the future be a threat to Government. That's was/is the mission of Christianity, to remove central government. That happens when people see that "it" is the seat of the world problems. When floks begin to understand that government will be looking for us. It's already to late for government to remove what we know. It's already in to many places for to long.  We made sure of that before putting anything in plain sight or in mass public view. The Apostles cover this by---feed a baby a spoonful at a time so as not to choke the baby. But, we can choke the baby if the gov makes it necessary. On the other hand the gov may leave us alone for fear of reprisal by the people. But, will get it from the people either way. That's what the book of Rev is partially about.

3- Learnings. In this case the book is the bible. We don't like the term "Bible". We say book or document. "Bible" is over-used and can bring negative reactions from some. B- we don't have any special doctrines or codes. There are doctrines everyone has from nature, such as - we hold these truths to be self evident- You know where that is from, right. Those self evident truths are natural doctrine. There's no need to invent any. C- Literature- We don't posses any literature that we can present. We haven't compiled any. Any literature we dealt with was in libraries or public documents that we didn't own . We did have copies of Egyptian writings and sample (photos) of Egyptian Glyphs, but we have no need anymore to use or keep them. Our studies are over. We were never in close proxsimity to each other, at least I wasn't.

4- Other forms- I was on two other Atheist forums and three Christians forums for a while. It got so I didn't know where I was and reduced the total back to this one. I couldn't keep up with it. B- Why Atheists-- After looking over this forum the other guys sent me here. We were looking ( as I see it now) for a place, a people, a group, to give our info to. We want others to know what we know, form there, if they understand, they would propagate it. Moreover we are obligated to inform others. If I walk by your house and your car is burning I'm obligated to knock on your door and inform you. We say Atheists are good thinkers. If what we have is true they'll find it.                5-  I came by the group while having lunch a a local eatery. One of them was passing through and we got into a conversation at the bar. He was a salesman covering Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, North and South Dakota, and a member of an adventure and explorer club. The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done.

I'm not elusive as I would say. This is new stuff but very old/ancient. What you think as elusive may be unfamiliarity. There was a time we were the same. What's needed to realize is that ancient floks weren't stupid, People of today are easily fooled on ancient people because of todays material accomplishments. The writers of ancient documents  throughout the middle east weren't about material undertakings. They had people figured out. Prophecy is simple . If you know how people think you can determine the end result. Thinking in a particular way will bring about the consequences of that directly correspond to it.

Questions---nobody has been asking these kinds of question. I've been waiting-it's my assignment. Danatemporary asked a few the other day but I couldn't figure out how the messaging works, she has my apologies.

Thank you for asking. Regards.

Old Seer,

Thanks for your reply,

You said it would basically take a book for you to pose a mission statement, so I guess the best I can do is pick at you with some questions.  It's gotten boring around here lately so hopefully at least some good ideas or new questions can arise here.

As i said in the other thread, excuse my attitude in my original post above. Auraujo was a bit annoying. Also I wrote that question without giving much thought to any detaials as you can tell. Iwbiek was kind enough to elaborate on it a bit. I'm just saying don't let it reflect my knowledge of the bible.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but as a former christian I know much more than what I wrote above.  I guess you would have to have been involved in the discussions with Auraujo that led me to post this thread in the first place to understand.

You said that your studies were over so I assume you and your group are well set on what you 'believe' and 'know to be true' so I wonder if you can answer the question in the original post to start with. Of course feel free to add in what you think or believe should be added concerning civilization, government, etc.  

All i ask is that you hold to my obvious requirement of 'NUMBERING' . Whatever is impossible for you to number just add in a short commentary reason as to why and move on to the next numbered step.

I have other questions concerning your answer from above but I will separate posts as to not mix and complicate things too much and to make it easier to address.

Thank you.

Oh no hurry,   And there is nothing really standard that one could expect.  In fact, I've never even gotten any type of christian or theist to give even a reply of "nobody knows" or " only god knows" etc.  It's not like I have a ground-breaking question here that just blows everything out of the water, but even when asking people this in person I've never gotten a single word uttered that was relevant to the question.  Especially the people who already have me condemned to hell for eternity should have a clue to how their story plays out.

Happy gardening. I will be fishing until the sun starts to bake me.   As for tonight I will be pondering some questions relevant to your original discussion above.

Have ground breaking questions. 

I'll take that bet---5 bucks.

I numbered his other questions why not these. ?

Isn't praying at the core of christian beliefs?

You to put anything in your brain you don't need our want. I expect your inquizitiveness to trap your self about two months from now or maybe three.. That is if you remain on this thread and comprehend my postings. If you don't---then it won't happen.

@OldSeer

Are you going to give a short summary of your mystical beliefs or not? Your little references to your superior religion are getting annoying. Stop just insinuating you know better and put down some actual material.

Be advised, we recognize there two different interpretations of the book. The Euro (or their,s) I will reffer to as "Brand X". Our,s I will referr to as Brand-A. Then there is Brand -B, the Hebrew understanding which is akin to Brand-X. Brand-B is variances between Hebrew and Euro thinking, but they have it misunderstood also. The logic of it is- if they lost the knowledge of God they couldn't possibly have it right because they would have to re-acquire that knowledge to have it correct. Brand -B very likely won't come into play very often.

Also be advised that We are not Christians, Deists, Theists, or Atheists. When bringing up the term "Christian" be Specific as to whether you are referring to X, A, or B. The reasons we are not Christians is 1- we don't want to be (it's a Choice thing). 2-To be Christian is a dangerous thing to become-it's not likely one would survive in the world of Brand-X. Brand-A produces a passive entity. That won't work along side Brand -X or B . We reserve the right to be animal just as well as the next guy. The animal is what protects you in a world of force and counter force. We retain the right of self defense. There-fore then--there are no floks on the planet practicing Christianity. Theism is the study of God, which doesn't make sense because it takes knowledge of God to be a Christian. If one is studying the properties of God then one does not "have" the knowledge of God, there-fore Brand -X cannot be Christianity. If you refer to Christianity rather then Brand-X I may get confused. Brand-X as Christianity does not exist, there-fore the God of Brand-X cannot exist.

 If you wonder why we on on this site---JC advises- take it to the outcasts of the world.---WELL.

1- seems to be a statement rather then a question. Clarify please.

2- Yes- But not in the way Brand-X presents it, or understands it. Here's the short of it. This ocurrs after the end times or near the completion and is in the last part of the events of the end, then armaggedon occurs. . The word arrives (same as JC- or Messia or Knowledge of God. If the loss of the knowledge of God creates the problems of the world, then what would fix them)- The word shows all to be wrong, huge embarrasment takes place big silence everywhere. (see the book of REV)- people grow into regarding all powers principlaities and authorties to be fools- people fall away from government. Governmnt is removed, or becomes inert, and not paid attention to.- The tribulation time. people begin to adhere to the new word. It's a tuff decision to make. One must choose one world over the other. Which will it be. - some choose Brand-A, some stay with Brand-X. Most migrate to Band-A. - peace breaks out everywhere. People become what they want to as interference from authorities is moot. ( Being of Gods but yet holding to none)- Another silence ( this one is not in the book) then many want to go back to Brand-X. Brand -A isn't as much fun as Brand-X. The greater number want to get back to dommination, lording it over, being the biggest buck in the herd. All Brand-X want to dominate but not want to be dominated. THIS is when the false messiah shows up. many want to gather floks to their ideas creating religions of there own making. It becomes as the confusion of Babylon. The texture of the people turns to evil upon each other, the love of the greater number grows cold. Brand-A withdraws and goes into hiding for safty. ( When you see the abomnation of desolation standing in the holy place ) - Armaggedon- the masses get into a shoot out--no government to stop it. This also happened in the days of Noah.

The false messiahs generate a hatred of Brand-A

3- Yes, but not as according to the tenents of Brand-X. Brand-A --->The word of God and the Messiah are the same. It's not an individual within a physical body. It's knowledge, an enlightening. ( JC, As the light comes from the east clear to the west so shall the coming of the son of man be. Note the term, "son of man". Ask about that later. It is given for a man to die once etc, he paid his dues. Q-3 also ties to Q-2 Word is not the physical body, it's communication. Word also, in the beginning as Genesis

4-, Yes, but we don't know how that works, We have some clues.  Our psycho smurffs are dealing with that at present. And no, not "all. In the book resurrections are to take place. There are two types to consider. A personal which is a change from what one is now to Brand-A. No physical death in this one, it's a change of personality, mental. The other, a physical, a return of the spiritual to re-inhabit a physical. In this case I'm submitting Brand -A,s interpretation of the book, we have no positive understanding what or how. This requires one of those faith deals that on this deal is kinda hard to generate. I have problems in having faith in something i don't understand. Any faith on my part would have to be a prospectus.

5- Unknown, that remains to be seen. But that is to happen after armaggedon. Brand A lives OK for a while and what this looks like is the development of a tendency to return to Brand -X Apparently they change course. It looks to be a temptation which is thwarted in progress. 1000= an unspecified period of time. This usage is akin to, I told you a 1000 times, which of course isn't the case. It's an expression of repedidness. But in Hebrew 1000 is a lot as in ancient times it wasn't used much, according to us. Back then they hardly had 1000 of anything. 1000s of 1000s is eternity, an expression of quantity that can't be counted.

6- Baaaaaagh, Brand -X is way out of context with this one. eeeeeooooooeeeeooooeeee. UFO in sight, lock and load. or-- Ruuuuuuun. Brand-X has the uncanny ability to make any God according to their own personality. This is an extending of their own judicial operations and proceedures into where they don't belong. Everyone alive at the time of the arrival/knowing of the word runs smack into a judgement. The knowledge of God causes one to see the self for what one is. YOU, then judge yourself against the precepts. The judgement you make is deciding which way you prefer to go---with yourself. (same as tribulation). This isn't about the other guy, this is about you. Let the "other" guy make up his own mind.

7- There isn't anyone permanently in heaven as yet (except JC)and there's plenty of floks in hell. Hell is the same as dead. There's cemeteries everywhere. Everyone is continually jumping in and out of Heaven. The trick is to stay there. If sex puts you in Heaven try to stay there with it and see how long it lasts. Material and physical things aren't reliable sources of permenent happiness. If your new car puts you there for a while, enjoy it, you can always drive it again tomorrow. Heaven is a mental condition of happiness or pleasure. You've been trained to be happy for a reason. There doesn't have to be a reason to be happy. Watch a baby for a while and you'll get the idea. Babies don't need a reason they simply can be happy. Death is a state of non-existence, the same state as before you were conceived. You weren't existing before that so there is no difference. There is a consideration of hell in that one is denied resurrection. That's similar to the lake of fire in Rev.  a perminent  condition of destruction=no chance of resurrection. Very few at this time will be elligable for that. The most likely for that condition are polititians, religious leaders, industrailists, and the big financeres of the world and the biggest buck in the herd.

!44000. The number is attributable to creation. Almost all in the bible has creation in mind. Again we have 1000's. The 144 is 12X12=144. There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man (ask about that later) The 1000= eternity, forever. This is about people, not 144000 of them but of one's own spiritual nature. Creation is the making of Adam, man. Adam isn't any spiritually differently made then you. But Adam is a different person. He/it/them is a person minus the the influence animal traits. There is no genetic or spiritual difference then you. You are made spiritually of these 144 possible traits. In other ancient religions there may be less depending upon belief and who is doing the counting. The word of god creates Adam but with a bit different personality then people of present.

8- No. The book of Rev is tuff nut to crack. What it is, is one mans rendition of the end time in symbols. We recognize the symbols which we see as of civilization. The mission of Brand-A is to destroy civilization.  In this book that is understood to be happening. No one is physically going to be thrown into a lake of fire, or a pot of boiling beans for that matter. There isn't anyone to do the throwing  The term "man" can be singular or multiple. At times it's used as a singular but expresses multiple. IE, that man will be thrown into the lake of fire etc. We are not done with this book by the way. This is a guess from the way other interpretations are from Brand-A. As used man in this case could mean the precepts on which a civilized person is made up of. This looks as those precepts are being eliminated. The lake of fire denotes permanantcy. There is also usages from Brand-B. Brand-B is the basis of the symbols. We're relying on others to find some of this book when they understand Brand-A. More minds find more things. No, we don't know everything.

9- Oh hey, that's an easy one. How about right here. The here-after In Brand-A is after civilization is gone. The destruction of the world in Brand -A is not the planet. The God of Brand-X does not exist. In Brand-B there's no reference to "God". The term isn't used and isn't in the Hebrew Numeric alphabet. God is a Euro term for forces they could not explain or comprehend. We can't see where it has any place in the book. We're forced to use it because everyone else does. There's no here-after out in space that we can find or imagine. The here-after for the dead is, dead. Resurrection has yet to be comprehended.

it's not for you.Yet. I gave our translation of part of the book. I did not present it as true. or make any claim that it is true.

Old Seer- 

First off, my original 1-9 were not individual questions. It was merely a generic sample list of events to serve as an example of how a reply should explain the bibles (or one's interpretation of) sequence of events will play out from here to eternity.-  Iwbiek in post 3 gave his reply of how he thinks most 'fundies' see it.   But no worries, you still get an 'A' for numbering and effort.  I'll do my best with it.  However, if you would still like to make a short summarized list similar to Iwbiek's but according to Brand A's interpretations then you will have successfully completed the original assignment (question).

As I'm sure you expected here,  my skeptic nature leads me to what my first thoughts are about any ideas on religion- "What are they sellin' ?" and "Take me to your leader". But I'm always interested in how people came about their beleifs and where or who  there derived from.  And history has taught us that there is always an angle.

So my second thought was- I find it hard to believe that a group of people, after all these years, can all have the same agreed collective interpretation of ancient text that doesn't jibe with what billions have already spent their whole lives on, without some extraordinary find or breakthrough that could justify it (Picture Tom Hanks in a new movie un-earthing the cypher left by aliens that finally put logic to the madness), unless there is some underlying malicious intent from an originator-even if that be only narcicistic.

Old Seer- "The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done"  

  Was there a "eureka" moment or did these papers give you instructions on how you should interpret the text?  You see what I'm getting at?  I'm just having trouble seeing you all studying individually over the course of years and comparing notes every once in a while and you all saying "ah, yes, that's the way I read it too. "  I have a feeling it went more like  "ah when I read it like the instructions say to it makes more sense. And the more we all agree, it even makes more sense"  I'm curious as to what the context and theme of this packet of papers was.

I see no conscious malicious intent yet.  Unless the answer to this million dollar question is "yes". Do you pay dues to be a member of your club?  Or do you contribute anything else non-monetary?

I'll have more questions regarding specific context of your replies later.

Thanks

now because it looks as that is the prime interest at present. I'll look over the other things tomorrow. We aren't special that we know of, nor trying to be. This is a group of guys going on adventures or explorations and are of various professions. I have ever been out in the field with them. I don't know what their finances were about. I've never paid dues. I doubt if they all went on jaunts at the same time. They are as other outdoor clubs would be, with snowmobiles, ATVs etc. there's nothing or anyone outside the ordinary. It goes as I posted previous. It was a chanced meeting of someone going through town a few times on his sales route. he was a member of the outdoor club. He explained the club to me. I really wasn't interested in joining the club. a typical bunch of guys doing things they were interested in. Just as any sports club would do. The uniqueness if any is because they were of different professions but  same interests in nature. The professions they were in allowed them the finances to go and do things. I've never had that amount of money. It looks to me as though they all became aquainted via the sales guy. I think he was an insurance or stock salesman. (I' trying to clear this up so I'm going to go a bit extensive to get it done). (I'm not perturbed at all so don't think that, it's just that this is nothing special to me) I think he is the one that promoted the idea of forming a club to the others. The club was formed long before I joined. The members obviously were his customers.  Their interest in me was because of being a bible scholar. That interest extends from my first meeting with the Sales Smurf on accounts of my problem with Biblical Creation. He was interested- I put a few things on a napkin and he left with it. A month later when he went through he dropped off what "they" think, their input. The Physics Smurf agreed with the Engineer Smurf and so ,on---I was right, this turkey isn't going to fly. Ok what is it. I didn't care really I've had it. The book was a farce and I spent enough time on it. Then they began asking me questions, and finally the whole book was gone through and a new or proper interpretation was acquired. What are they doing today---What everyone else is doing. They're going about their lives normally as retired floks. There's nothing else to do. I'm detecting that we are expected to be someones special. We're not. What's special if anything is the interpretations. This is the best i can do for now. I hope it satisfies.

There's some many floks looking everywhere finding so much it's gotten confusing. Someone goes out into the desert and finds another pile of rocks that dates to XXXX and according to him/her it's the first civilization. It gets down to---who built the first building.  Thanks for you info.

aren't solving a thing. I used to be a guitar strummer, I didn't solve anything. If my guitar planging didn't save the world how is this fella's guitar wire bending going to make any difference. Music is nothing more then organized noise. Is it any different then bird tweeting. Using it to generate consolation also creates confidence in falsehoods. It creates mental mud for intellectual tires to get stuck in. Been there, done that.  Regards.

That was a humorous poke at Arajuao, whom anyone can tell you asked for that due to some of his past posts, none of which were too nice. 

I am not giving time for any of this stuff that your talking about. I have got better things to do. 

Hmm, the plot thickens.

But it's to much used as a crutch. Poetry also. To much soothsaying puts the King to sleep.

Now you won't have to send it to my favorite charity---me.

"There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man"

Ok, please elaborate.

I understand about the money, with me it's grand kids. There's robbery in constant progress around here.

  So, Adam was a "living soul" because he was made from Terra Firma, you think ?

I finally realized this is what you wanted numbered. It can take 3 hours to do this one.The reason is-it's been 20 years since we completed the study (1992) and I don't have any paper work from the guys anymore. 20 years ago I didn't know anything of what was going to happen with our information. But I will handle #1 now. It's one of my favorites.

Nooooooway Jose. It doesn't happen this way in Brand-A. There's nothing physical going on here. Rapture---yes but people loosing their mental bearings., not hardly. Wouldn't rapture equate to a mental state as rapture denotes mental condition on the first count. Caught up in the air (holy moly). Air = spirit. Air=heavenly, same thing or in conjunction with each other. Heaven is a state of happiness-in some cases used as what is valued or that which is held or kept of higher value, a measure of uplifting or condition of being uplifted , mental condition. (simple ain't it) Earth = soul---mother earth, as in, Eve as in woman is soul, as in the emotional structure and that which is loved, which gives birth to a new manchild of "His" kind, same as reborn=new person. The woman was formed out of Adam=Adam acquires a new soul. Caught up in the spirit of renewal and remain in it etc. Absolutely nothing to do with countering gravity or the suspending the laws of physics.