Questions on the Flood for TWD39 (or any theist)
Offline This thread is mainly for TWD39, though other people who believe the flood, Noah and so on really happened are welcome to chime in. It is an extension of the other thread discussing language and the tower of Babel, which started some questions about Noah's flood.
If you believe that the Flood happened as the Bible states, then you must have rational answers to the following questions:
1 Were babies also killed in the flood? Were they deemed sinful, or just collateral damage? What about the unborn? (in case you think people are born with sin..) Is God an innocent baby killer?
2 If the flood covered the whole earth, where did the water come from, and where did it go afterwards?
3 If the flood was caused by rain for 40 days and nights, and rain covered the earth, then it would need to rain 112 million cubic kilometers each day. The water vapour that’s needed to be suspended in the air to achieve this would render the air unbreathable - people would have drowned by breathing this air. How did Noah and his family survive this?
4 How did the animals get to the arc? If Noah gathered them, how did he get around the world so quickly? If the animals came of their own accord, how did the giant tortoises get there in time? How did animals that can’t swim cross seas to get there?
5 How did Noah feed the animals? Some animals have very specific diets (pandas eat only bamboo, koalas eat only eucalyptus, for example) so how did Noah get these foods, which don’t grow in Mesopotamia?
6 How did Noah keep meat fresh for the hungry carnivores?
7 How did the freshwater fish survive? Did the arc carry fresh water? How were these fish collected and stored?
8 The flood would have killed all plant life. What would the ‘saved’ herbivores eat? What about those that feed only on adult trees that take a long time to grow?
9 What about the carnivores? They must have had to eat the herbivores – they were on the arc for over a year, so any corpses would be completely rotten, as well as being buried under sediment.
10 Where would the animals find fresh water to sustain themselves?
11 How did the plants survive being underwater for more than a year? Some might have seeds that survive, but vast numbers of plant species would have become extinct. How come the are still here today?
12 When the flood ended, only 6 people survived that would go on to breed. The bible indicates that the tower of Babel happened 100 years after the flood. How were there enough people to build the tower, which must have been massive?
13 How did the Native Americans, and Australian Aboriginals get to their continents (Which don’t have land bridges with Asia) after the flood?
14 How did God ‘create’ the rainbow as part of the promise he’d never flood the whole world again? If there was refracted sunlight and rain ever before the flood, there must have been rainbows.
15 Why did god change his mind about how many of each type of animal had to be taken into the arc? Genesis 6 says take 2 of each, Genesis 7 says take up to 7.
16 Lastly, why did god go to all the trouble?
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Offline No, that isn't what constants do at all. Constants are constant, the variables are what gives weather a range, constants influence the variables and limit the theoretical minimums and maximums. A raindrop can never fall faster than terminal velocity, period. There is a maximum speed that raindrops can achieve because of constants.
There are constants that are associated with scientific law... e.g. terminal velocity... and those same constants can be associated with variables that do not determine a limit... again, this is obviously a bit beyond your comprehension... stick with what you know.
Yes, and that didn't "prove" anything unless I consider you an authority and take your word for it. I don't even believe that you took meteorology 101 let alone have any authority on the subject, which is why I have asked for you to provide sources OTHER THAN YOU countless times. You have yet to provide anything.
...and do you remember why?
And yet I have found several meteorlogical sources that explore meteorlogical phenomena that has never happened as far as we know. Proving you a liar or ignorant yet again. Meteorologists can and do create models that predict extreme weather that has never happened as far as we know. I haven't asked you to prove it happened, I've asked you to prove it possibly could have.
what does something that has never happend have to do with something that has happened historically?
I have read every link I've posted and a good bit more, which is how I know you are making shit up.
if you did, you wouldn't think I was making shit up... I have quoted several times the very links you posted... unless you're claiming your links are "making shit up"
I'm just asking you to tell me what the conditions would need to be. Whether or not they actually occurred is irrelevant to that point. Why can't we determine what the conditions must be to cause Noah's Flood?
...and I did... but I'm not a credible source in your eyes, so it didn't matter.
Why would you expect me to answer questions that aren't answered within the links themselves? *snip*
We know that hominids lived constantly in north eastern Africa for over 4 million years, so it seems reasonable to assume that Noah's flood had to affect that area, since it supposedly killed every human except Noah.
And punishment for purposes other than reforming the person being punished is sadistic, but I've already determined that you are not the good person I assumed you were. My initial question was how a good person could see god as moral, maybe all the people I think are good people actually aren't good people and I need to be more careful making that assumption.
I like how you use a religious term to define it... and what makes a "good person" good? Please be objective in your answer.
So are you saying that scripture is wrong about the parameters?
no, how would we have determined that?
Because the link doesn't suggest that any such flood happened any time anywhere.
does the link happen to suggest that it could have never happened, or that we just don't have any evidence at this time? My guess is we have evidence for proabaly 10% of all the floods that have occured in the history of the world... and so that means nothing to me.
Obviously, because it never happened.
then it's settled, we're done here
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, then Orrorin Tugenensis was fossilized before your flood. I mean, sure, you might not agree with a timeline for the earth, or dating methods, but you have provided no consistent criteria on which to decide these things. Until you do, then I can assume anything I want. You have provided me with no literature (even creationist literature) that describes your beliefs regarding when the flood occurred, the age of the earth, and how old humans are. 
(homo-heidelbergensis) [the alleged direct link to humans] yet noticed the dramatically pronounded browline in the bone structure that miraculously disappeared when humans allegedly evolved from it... beyond that, the facial structure of the human skull is quite smooth where as the latter is quite rigid in areas and has a much more pronounced cheek /frontal structure... Let's move on to homo-erectus 
.. now according to the chart, this is 3 special generations back... yet it is a more likely culprit for an ancestor to humans, with the exception of the protruding browline that is consistent throughout the orbital which is strangely again absent in the human skull yet was consistent through both other future species. If anything, it looks like homo-erectus could have possibly over much time evolved into humans except that the future generations look like they back tracked a bit from the modern day human then *poof, the brow and protruding orbital disappeared, the facial structure dramatically smoothed out and here we are. 
No, that isn't what constants do at all. Constants are constant, the variables are what gives weather a range, constants influence the variables and limit the theoretical minimums and maximums. A raindrop can never fall faster than terminal velocity, period. There is a maximum speed that raindrops can achieve because of constants.
Yes, and that didn't "prove" anything unless I consider you an authority and take your word for it. I don't even believe that you took meteorology 101 let alone have any authority on the subject, which is why I have asked for you to provide sources OTHER THAN YOU countless times. You have yet to provide anything.
And yet I have found several meteorlogical sources that explore meteorlogical phenomena that has never happened as far as we know. Proving you a liar or ignorant yet again. Meteorologists can and do create models that predict extreme weather that has never happened as far as we know. I haven't asked you to prove it happened, I've asked you to prove it possibly could have.
I have read every link I've posted and a good bit more, which is how I know you are making shit up.
I'm just asking you to tell me what the conditions would need to be. Whether or not they actually occurred is irrelevant to that point. Why can't we determine what the conditions must be to cause Noah's Flood?
And punishment for purposes other than reforming the person being punished is sadistic, but I've already determined that you are not the good person I assumed you were. My initial question was how a good person could see god as moral, maybe all the people I think are good people actually aren't good people and I need to be more careful making that assumption.
So are you saying that scripture is wrong about the parameters?
Because the link doesn't suggest that any such flood happened any time anywhere.
No it doesn't. The flood didn't wipe out the whole population, it didn't even wipe out a large percentage of it. It shows how 99% of the population managed to survive despite the flood destroying their homes.
Obviously, because it never happened.
No, the link doesn't support that possibility. I've asked for a meteorlogical theory that a flood that more or less fulfills the parameters described in the bible is possible. The flood in the link is nowhere near the parameters in the bible. I agreed that 200 ft in 40 days would be close enough to the parameters (although still makes the bible a lying exaggeration). Being the nice guy I am, I cut that in half to 100 feet.
I can't speak to what Fugita decided to do or why he decided to do it. Meteorologists do create models that predict tornados and they do collect detailed information when tornados happen, that information is incorporated into future models. I don't know if Fugita does that or not, I don't know who he is.
Well if his goal is to determine the damage caused by tornados and not the details of the tornado itself that seems a sensible way to do it. But whether he does it or not, there are meteorologists who study tornados and they are interested in their exact speed even over 200 mph.
Show me a single flood in history that wiped out 100% of a population of a village. I doubt that one has occurred. I will allow for a single survivor or family of survivors. Hell, because I'm generous, I will allow for 5% of the village population to survive. I'll bet you that you can't even find a flood that killed 50% of the population of a village.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I saved twice that much in half the time!
...sorry, couldn't resist.
I have stopped??? huh.
Anyway, it is how it works... what could a meteorologist do if he did know the date and time and place? use geology to find out the magnitude, water flow, volume, possibly ice samples to understand a better comprehension of the weather patterns of the time, etc... in ohter words, they could build a model... go figure.
It wasn't likely the flood of Noah. I don't remember if I linked it or not.