Old Seer wrote:

If you go on line and do some research you'll find that there are insights that what amounts to the Jews becoming westernized and have no idea on how to use their original numeric alphabet. They do not have a proper understanding of their ancestry or religion. The old testament is written at a time when the Alphabet was still being used. And, it didn't rain H2o for 40 days and nights as we understand it. Waters denotes mentality or state of mind--they killed each other. And--if you floks out there don't get this damn thing fixed/changed you.re headed for the same. We can see it. There's no fooling the Psycho Smurfs, they know exactly what they're looking at. The evidence is---the numeric Alphabet. It is what is needed to make determination within the OT and some things in the NT. Can you explain to me "what" I believe. You are delving in assumptions. Under the circumstances and not being able to use their numeric system we are reduced to speculation. We Speculate from the evidence within the book that the Hebrews were in Egypt. There is no other evidence to show they weren't  as I can see there can,t be. I'm not asking you to prove an impossibility.  Then to say they weren't is also a speculation, and I respect your speculation. There is no feasible reason to think they weren't in Egypt. There is no evidence to back up any claim nor can I present any, nor did I make any claim they were in Egypt.  Lack of evidence???-I'm not presenting any evidence or tried to prove anything. Your asking to prove something I'm not trying to prove. We are wise enough to know not to make a statement as, the Hebrews never were in Egypt---there's no way to know that.  You may be shown wrong at a future time.

Again, back up your claim with actual evidence or academic studies that prove this. otherwise it is just mumbo jumbo

 Why do you use the book as evidence in the first place?  It would appear you have to already believe the book is true, in order to cite it as proof.

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

Stele Ramses II excavations The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia. Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of  Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II]  george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon Cern J. 1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz Israel 6: 75-82. The Internet does not carry old info like this. You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books. Quid pro quo

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other.

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

the dark ages were not qualified to interpret the book--yes. They did a #1 botch job. Because the Euros lack of understanding the forces of nature they considered those forces God. There's no way with their limited knowledge that they could see it any other way.

Atheists have the same problem with the book. Being they don't understand it they say it's a myth. I'm not a theist, and technically an Atheist. We understand religions, but don't let their ideas blind us. Go to Old Seers Corner in the general conversations forum to understand the "We". We have a different interpretation of the book then the Euros. One can be an Atheist and still understand the book. We interpret it from a basic Atheist mind set. The book isn't what floks think it is.  

Yet again lots of rambling, no evidence to back up your claim.

you say. If you hate religion you hate people. We don't let hatred rule the mind. People need to learn not get kicked around. If you know something they can helped with--be helpful. Any claims we make can be easily reasoned by anyone.

Stele Ramses II excavations The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia. Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of  Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II]  george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon Cern J. 1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz Israel 6: 75-82. The Internet does not carry old info like this. You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books. Quid pro quo

the Archeologist team from the University of penselvenia Directed by Clarence Fisher, Alan Rowe and G. M. FitzGerald, determined that the jews built Ramses . If the Jews were in Egypt , then how did they get to Israel ?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

note form Alpha Smurf---Advising-----

Advice: (As per our previous stand on archeology, to restate as reminder) We think it may be best to stay neutral on archeology. (I have been)There's really to many disagreements by scholars, changes, typical bias, bickering over trifles, wrong and conflicting analysis, and the main is bias. It is best to remain with the book as to make decisions, Dates are  often wrong and speculative. End of message.

I made no attempt, and had/have no intent to add to or prove any archeological input by anyone. We didn't and still aren't specifically anilyising Hebrew history within our group. That's not our interest. Our interest is the mental side. If you care to go back to my original post on this thread --I was merely cautioning from experience, on the use of archeology to make determinations. There was no intent to prove or disprove anything, and still isn't.

Our experience with archeology led to a negative view and as far as we're concerned it's a bust.

It may be useful for others but it's not for us.

Hebrew history is no different than anyone else's.

We found all civilizations start at the same place and end at the same place. We study/studied --why. South American and North American history is no different then  European history---it's the same with Hebrew history, and why, is what we deal with. If someone finds evidence of Hebrews in Egypt it will be disputed by some one else. We don't care.   

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

note form Alpha Smurf---Advising-----

Advice: (As per our previous stand on archeology, to restate as reminder) We think it may be best to stay neutral on archeology. (I have been)There's really to many disagreements by scholars, changes, typical bias, bickering over trifles, wrong and conflicting analysis, and the main is bias. It is best to remain with the book as to make decisions, Dates are  often wrong and speculative. End of message.

 

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer wrote:

I made no attempt, and had/have no intent to add to or prove any archeological input by anyone. We didn't and still aren't specifically anilyising Hebrew history within our group. That's not our interest. Our interest is the mental side. If you care to go back to my original post on this thread --I was merely cautioning from experience, on the use of archeology to make determinations. There was no intent to prove or disprove anything, and still isn't.

If so, why did you say anything in regard to it?

Old Seer wrote:

Our experience with archeology led to a negative view and as far as we're concerned it's a bust.

Why is that? Does it expose that the stories are legends and myths and can't be supported in the real world?

Old Seer wrote:

It may be useful for others but it's not for us.

The real world sucks for you does it?

Old Seer wrote:

Hebrew history is no different than anyone else's.

Storytelling does not history make.

Old Seer wrote:

We found all civilizations start at the same place and end at the same place. We study/studied --why. South American and North American history is no different then  European history---it's the same with Hebrew history, and why, is what we deal with. If someone finds evidence of Hebrews in Egypt it will be disputed by some one else. We don't care.   

So don't bother to discuss it then. I do not see you have said anything here worthwhile.

 

 

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

They were no different then American society, is that so.

We are not about matters of claims. We are about matters of study and analysis. Our analysis bears no reason the doubt them. There is no proof one way or the other.

the Archeologist team from the University of penselvenia Directed by Clarence Fisher, Alan Rowe and G. M. FitzGerald, determined that the jews built Ramses . If the Jews were in Egypt , then how did they get to Israel ?

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

They were no different then American society, is that so.

We are not about matters of claims. We are about matters of study and analysis. Our analysis bears no reason the doubt them. There is no proof one way or the other

Oh for fucks sakes, let play this fucking game, your version of fucking what? You don't present anything, you make delusional claims and have ZERO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP, so far you have done nothing but ramble, either present it or shut up about it, since you cannot present any evidence for your claim. Simple present the evidence, if you cannot then we are done here.

There's no way to go back to the time of Adam and find archeological evidence on the mentality of a group of inhabitants unless they wrote something to find. Their pots would look like any other pot, if they even had a pot to piss in. . Adam is not about material, they were about a certain way/mentality. We know of no way to determine how long ago they were.

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

Video cameras weren't available at the time of Noah.  

 

Old Seer wrote:

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

 

begs the question of 'creation'. We must assume that you assert material reality is purely mental and further, you impose the false dichotomy that a thing must be either material or mental. You assert this at a time of insufficient understanding of the nature of neurology for us to know what thoughts are made of.

Then there's material - something that occupies space and possesses mass. And of course, once we get deeper into particle physics it becomes clear that matter is made of virtually nothing at all. No physicist would claim the standard model allows humans to understand matter. So despite your probable aim, what you are essentially arguing here is that we either don't know what our sense data is telling us, or we don't know what our sense data is telling us. This being an observation with which I fully concur. 

you said: it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area Jews in Egypt: Leiden Papyrus 348, a decree by an official of Ramesses II concerning construction work at his new capital, Pi-Ramesses, declares: “Distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Ramesses.”