NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER - YES NO MAYBE?
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A life of doubt is no fun - doubts doing, thinking or saying something - then doubts looking back on what's done. I've had the experience - I didn't like it. It's a dark jungle with no map road or reason - or too fast a game in real time. You realize if you admit it you're not necessarily getting anywhere - yet there's the clock, the shot clock, the referrees with whistles, people in stands with agendas, teammates depending on you - and people "coaching" (do your thinking for you). There's statisticians writing down "facts", many facts.
It's obvious you have to put your "confidence" (your faith) in something or somebody - yet who or what? You could put your faith in the statistitian - but statistics (though they ARE facts) don't play the game - they just sit there. You could put your "confidence" (your faith) in the coach - (which might be ok during the game - but what about the rest of the week?) You could put your faith in your teammates - a roll of the dice. That leaves you yourself - which leads to a lonely question: am I right or am I wrong? Doubts anybody?
I was never able to see myself as a source of answers. And, I never saw anybody else that could take you very far without spinning out either.
So for whatever reason I started reading and mining the Bible - and I started finding substance, treasure, jewels and answers from God. It enabled me to go through a "transformation" - a "dying", a "burial" in baptism in water - and a resurrection to a new life in the Light of Christ - along with the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. In this Light I have been enabled to get to know myself before God (in the Presence of God), get to know other people in the Light of Christ, and get to know Christ and God. My faith is not in myself but in God and Jesus. My faith is not in my interpretation of the Word of God - but I know if I can understand it right - it's RIGHT. I have no doubts about God or Jesus whatsoever. They Know What They're doing and They Have all the Answers. I am living in the Presence of God (through faith in the promise and experience of it) 24/7. I don't know everything or anything compared to what there is to know - but I Know God, He Knows, and He can handle it. I can daily "die" to my view and "life" in God's ideas. It's a great trade.
So I report for work every day - take every thought captive and see if it matches up with respect to the Word of God. It's "work security" because we are hit by several thoughts as you know - however; just one at a time (me anyway). The way I see it - it's better to be "alert" than to be "strong" because I can pull little weeds (bad thoughts) and put out little fires (bad emotions) easily. It's not a life of doubts anymore - because I have a Standard, an Authority and a Reference to check these things out. Not only that but the Word of God is "Living and Active" and God and Jesus are "Alive in me" so this is not a matter of worshipping a non-living thing, a fact book - it's animated. I am able to meet life - with LIFE (the Life that is Life Indeed as Jesus said).
I wonder if you Atheists are able to know things for certain or not. If you are certain about the life you are living how did you get there - and how are you daily able to rise out of the jungle of doubts around you - maintain it? If you have hitched your life to a "star" or "stars" (an "expert) how can you be sure he or she is right? If you have faith in yourself - how do concrete answers come from that small world? If your faith and confidence is in "facts only" - how do you animate facts to constantly changing situations of life? Or, have you resigned yourselves to lives of doubt, having convinced yourselves there is nothing better? Have you accepted a life of doubt as the "new normal", resigned to it.
What hope and strength do you have to offer to the world to rise above a life of doubt? My answer is the Gospel of Jesus' death as the Lamb of God taking our sins upon Him on the cross, buried and Raised bodily. I am trusting in that Gospel of grace by faith plus nothing - no suplimental insurance. The Glory is all God's. The Power of the Gospel to deliver proves its genuiness - and I have experienced it first hand. It is certainly available to you all as well.
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A book of lies and mythology. It spun out on the first page.
Translation: Someone splashed water on you and you went bonkers.
You can't have faith in anything without having faith in yourself. Nice to see the book of lies taught you how to lie though. Wasn't a total waste of time.
More lies. This one stands out because it is a huge lie. A lie to bury other lies. The word of your primitive backwards religion hasn't changed in centuries. It is dead.
More than you ever will.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vastet,
I know you don't believe me or any of what I believe and also justify your position in your own way which is fine with me. I'll see you later.
I thought about responding to your story but I refrained because I found too the structure too scattered. It was illogical to ask the questions you presented.
Every one lives with doubt in their lives because we aren't always sure what will give us the least amount of suffering/greatest amount of pleasure.
While you might have found a source of <insert emotion>, atheists have challenged every angle and asked all the questions, leaving them with the conclusion that there is no god, no creator and certainly no savior.
You have no choice in being a christian. You are a christian because you are supposed to be one. You can't be any thing else.
You thrive on the emotions derived from following that christian path and you will continue to do so until you die or those emotions leave you/sour for you.
For the rest of us, we find <insert emotion> in other things we do with out the need to believe in a god/creator/savior. We don't need those things to survive. They provide us with nothing so we reject them.
if he's anything like me and many other current/former christians, the emotions soured a long time ago. usually (emphasis on "usually") the new believers in the grip of those powerful feelings are actually more open-minded and less obnoxious because they're too caught up in riding the high. when the high abates, that's when they either leave or decide to stick it out, the latter choice often leading to legalism, sectarianism, and that aggressive kind of proselytizing we're all so familiar with (and some, like myself, once engaged in). in the end, a christian who has lost his high is insecure in his spiritual status--he often wonders if he "did it right," if his salvation really "took," which is one reason why you have so many christians changing churches left and right, "rededicating" themselves, or getting re-baptized. it's also the reason for fundamentalism: taking a militant stance is a good way for christians to prove themselves (read: lie to themselves). there is nothing more cynical than a shouting, crying, fire-and-brimstone preacher. he doesn't really feel any of that. he just wishes he did.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I never had a high with religion. It was "get up, get dressed, go to church, yawn, go to supermarket and read comic while family shopped, go home, unpack, eat lunch"
That was my Sunday. There wasn't any thrill about church, god, jesus, mary, ect.
The thrill on Sunday was watching a football game with my dad.
Digitalbeachbum,
I have conducted my experiment too and come to a different conclusion.
The metamorphis of being "born anew" with faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice and invitation brings in the Light of the Holy Spirit to see the workings of the experiment. I went through the miserable legalistic experiment and went on to walking by the Spirit in the Light and in the Presence of God without doubts about God or Jesus or the Word of God. I don't mean I understand all the Word of God - but I Know my Master's Voice and Know He Knows what He's Doing.
It is night and day refreshing to be freed from the heresy of trying to earn Salvation by works or religious activity, etc. The misery caused by this wrong turn I think is the reason for a lot of attricion from seeking God. It's a trap and a trick. It appears even Paul experienced it in his trainng in the desert 3 years in Arabia (what I want to do I couldn't, what I didn't want, I did) (I'm not sure he was referring to that but possibly). Anyway it's great to come to a level place with the Light of Truth freeing you from all these misconceptions of Christianity.
Iwbiek,
I'm sure I am like you in many ways - for sure no better. I've gone through some confusing times, dark times, legalism, aggressive proselytizing, sectarianism and also worshipping the idol of "meville".
I don't look at the ship I'm sailing on as that of emotion as you mentioned. Though I didn't know it at the time and didn't recognize it for a long time the "promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit" is in place. How it works I don't know, but there is Light and Counseling and Coaching - and also the promise of the "Abiding Presence of God and Christ" (you would know about that promise) I have found to be a reality - not an emotional reality (emotions = weather) but a residual reality.
I have also seen what you described - people trying but not able to get a foothold. Also I have experienced the discomfort of being around someone who is intent on showing me how religious they are. (also a guy who is intent on selling me insurance - but I didn't buy it)
I think you by your own described compromise have "settled" for a lie - that you can never "find peace and happiness" in Christ. That's my opinion and experience from my lifetime experiment. (I guess that was a quote from Hunter Thompson) so I'm not addressing you but him on this idea. "If it had been as I intended I wouldn't have the peace I know" (Carol King -you've got a Friend)
Doubt is how progress is made.
If humans in the past didn't doubt religion, superstion and mythology, nobody would have bothered to open up the human body to figure out how it works, and we would not have modern medicine. If we didn't doubt, slavery would still exist and women still would not have the right to vote.
Faith is actually dangerous, it causes the gullible and fearful to cling to bad claims like climate change denying and sorry, to ignore such credulity today knowing it is fact, is dangerous to the survival of our species.
Yes, I do doubt an old book that makes claims of men magically popping out of dirt. I do doubt a book that makes claims of talking snakes, donkeys and bushes. I do doubt a book that claims the earth was made in 6 days knowing it is 4 billion years old. I do doubt claims of magic babies with super powers. I do doubt claims of zombie gods who survive rigor mortis.
I also doubt the morality of stories that involve the death of kids over a beef the head character has with an Egyptian King. I do doubt the morality of mass genocide of the fictional flood story, and exactly who did the Noah family fuck to re populate the planet if not each other?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The Old Troll had gone out into the Desert to reflect on Its previous defeat.
When It returned to civilization, it quickly became clear that nothing had improved.
For It simply began a new thread with the same tedious preaching as before.
The same tedious preaching, which was still quite easy to...
There are no theists on operating tables.
Brian37,
Well I totally doubt and reject your premise and your extended application of your doubt. You can have that view and doubt - fine with me - continue to have faith in yourself and your view and doubts wherever. I don't share that faith or doubt and I'm not in the least offended or influenced by it or the numbers that happen to agree.
Zara,
sigh
It doesn't matter what your experiement was, it isn't valid. It is illogical. Any evidence you present can be applied to all other religions with the same results if faith is applied.
The Old Troll sighed with frustration, realizing Its dishonest blather would not escape criticism yet again.
For it was still quite easy....
There are no theists on operating tables.
The results from that manual are the same results people get using different manuals in different labs. It means that all other experiements have the same procedures and the end results are the same. What isn't noted is that the manuals are giving incorrect test data to use ending the experiement with what appears to be a valid result.
You should be on a higher troll level before engaging zara in a fonzie topic. It took me a good 5 or 6 pages over months before I won that battle. Maybe more.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Me? I'm not engaging any one for a battle because there is nothing to discuss. Fonzie made a comment which I stated could apply to any religion.
Digitalbeachbum,
Right - nothing has surfaced yet to be discussed. If one of you Atheists has an "inclination" (which all seem to have) then anything can become anything - and any discussion goes nowhere, nobody really "hears" or takes it to heart because everything you do you justify, dig in, and you Atheists are much more involved in faith up to your necks than you realize (I know you will be inclined to call it by a different name) but it all goes nowhere. Plus there's peer pressure here in the Atheist "church" - ha. It's kind of funny to see - the "church of what's happening now".
But, the Atheist ship appears to go nowhere. I have simply asked what you, any Atheist is sure of (blank) and what supplies sustaining strength from your view of things - and nothing of substance is ever brought out. This seems to me to be an honest fact that no Atheist here has been willing to honestly face and discuss. I would think the Atheist wouldn't see the "I can tell you what's wrong with anything" approach doesn't go anywhere - it's just a barking dog. It's not a road to go places on and only showcases the toxic wit of the Atheist in mocking the Word of God and LORD of LORDS - Jesus and the facts of the Gospel, etc., etc., (mocking all things not understood - treating heavenly things common).
I have laid out principles of Christianity in a straight forward sense - not expecting any of you to receive it because I've discussed it with a lot of you and I know you don't. But it seems you can't honestly tell me what is inspiring about lying to yourselves - saying you don't believe in anything when you obviously DO believe in something - it's just not Who or What I believe in. Maybe you sense you are on thin ice - explaining why you only attack rather than provide the substance you have (?) that inspires you to be better than believers in God, more righteous. Maybe I'm looking for something that doesn't exist - Atheist principles, Atheist Gospel, Atheist Ecclesiastes, Atheist Proverbs, Atheist Salvation. One Atheist described Atheism as "not having a stamp collection". I rest my case. (also the "break it up into sentence fragments and make sarcastic remarks" approach doesn't cut it either)
Everything bad you ascribe to atheism is actually a problem for theism. It's funny watching you jump through hoops trying to convince us that your problems are our problems.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
It was still quite easy...
Atheists have the problem that their lack of faith takes them nowhere, and evolution bears no Gifts.
There are no theists on operating tables.
It would be cool if you actually discussed or debated a subject.
Trying to discuss things with you is like talking to a vending machine.
Digitalbeachbum,
Yes it's because these are two different worlds which take off in different directions at: "In the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth..."
We can't debate "faith in God" in the context of "unbelief". I have presented some elements of "light" - evidently "darkness" isn't that presentable for one thing - for another, there's no debate between darkness and light. Light overcomes darkness and there are those who love darkness, hate light and don't want to come to light (don't go to the vending machine to buy light) - and debate won't make it happen.
The fool fails endlessly at everything.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You might want to take another look at who you were responding to.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You might want to take another look at your bible (Word), because in the eyes of the True Lord (Light), it is you who is failing at everything.
There are no theists on operating tables.
I remember Fonzie. I know the previous threads.
Apply those same words to any other religion and it works too.
We can debate faith. You have too look at it in the context that your religion isn't the only religion.
Light doesn't overcome darkness.
The post I'm referring to wasn't a response to fonzie.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I'm not concerned about what Zara is posting
Vastet,
You really ventured into truth here - every living thing has problems. The Jews had the schooling of the law but didn't get the lesson: that they couldn't save themselves by law. The Gentiles had orientation problems - not having Revelations from God or a good example in the Jews.
We who are "raised in Christianity" have problems seeing ourselves as we are. And Atheists have problems seeing anything to it at all. You can't receive a "gift" without faith in the One Who Gives it.
There is a difference though Vastet. Unlike Atheism, in Christ we have solutions. You see imperfections of those who "come to Christ" - sure - only Christ is Perfect, but you can't sort it out. You have deep false impressions of Christianity, "Christ Raised from the Dead", "God became man", "born of a virgin", "God in Christ redeeming fallen man", "Christ dying for the sins of those who believe in Him", "Life in Christ", "walking by faith", "walking in the light", etc. - - your false impressions you rightly reject (understand they are YOUR false impressions). But you have a problem.
You are trapped in your own unbelief - and devil's angels are standing guard to keep you chained to your false impressions. You have no faith in me, or maybe anybody. You're like two men chained to a rock wall with a tiny window - and the other one says to you, "here's my plan" - ha. You could "cry out" to God - and He would surely come and rescue you. But that would call for faith you haven't yet discovered in your heart of hearts. It could happen - maybe when an "ass's colt is born a man". Maybe before, who knows.
No, you believe you have solutions but it's a lie, because here we are 2000 years later and exactly the same problems are still around.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
There are no theists on operating tables.
That's a bold statement
He's simply been throwing a tantrum for a good year over the fact that people don't ignore fonzie.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vastet,
I know the Gospel is a "lie" to you - but t's not a "lie" to me because I believe it. If you were able to believe me (which you aren't) you would take the idea more seriously. I received it as the Gift It Is through faith in the One Who Gave it and the Gift itself. The Lamb of God Was and Is without flaw.
As far as the "same problems still around" I would agree - "there is nothing new under the sun". Some of us though have found "faith in God and the Gospel" plus NOTHING to be the solution.
BTW are you 100% sure what the "problems" are - and why haven't you found the solution? Are you looking in the wrong place? Are you accepting the lie that there is no solution?
He should be throwing a tantrum for people not ignoring Brian.
That's your problem fonzie.
You believe in a lie, but because you believe it, you ignore that it is a lie.
He's simply been throwing a tantrum for a good year over the fact that people point out that it is still quite easy...
There are no theists on operating tables.
God hates you, his son hates you and you are being punished for being a gaping dickhole
lol!
Belief is irrelevant to fact. A lie remains a lie no matter how many believe it.
I take the idea of a god rather seriously. The mere belief in fictional beings has caused more death and suffering than any other cause in human history. Whether o not there is a god is an interesting question, one I'd have little trouble entertaining if not for the fact that no religion in history has been a force for good. Worse than that, every religion enforces only belief, not adherence. Throughout all of christian history, for an example, millions of people have bern raped, tortured, bullied, ostracised, and killed all just because they didn't believe. Almost noone has even been excommunicated, let alone raped, tortured, bullied, ostracised, or killed for breaking the rules of the religion. You can kill and steal all you like, the church will turn a blind eye. But admit you don't believe, and the church will attempt to destroy you.
It's not as bad now as it once was, the church is no longer in control of most nations. But give it enough rope to go back to its old ways and it won't hesitate. Noone is more hateful than a religious zealot. Even sociopaths are better people.
Many of them yes. I doubt very much I know what they all are. Yet I wouldn't be shocked if I did know them all.
I have found solutions to most or all of the problems I'm aware of. Give me absolute power and I'll have most of it fixed before I die of old age. Can't guarantee they'd stay fixed, a lot of people are incredibly self destructive. It would only be a matter of time before someone fucked everything up.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Keep whining baby. XD
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"Projection."
Self description.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You talk of torture and killing as if they are bad things? But without god (Bread), how do you decide they are bad? Jesus (Lamb) was tortured and killed so we wouldn't have to be.
There are no theists on operating tables.
The tantrum continues. XD
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vastet,
I agree faith does not make or prove a fact - but faith IS relevant to what you and I view as "fact". If your faith is in the Truth - you have Rock solid facts. If your faith is in lies - you think you have facts but you don't. This is where we are talking long distance from two different worlds.
Contrary to your assessment there are those who have honestly accepted the "Gift" of "Righteousness" - God's Righteousness which is Christ. I KNOW some of these people - and they are totally different than you have described. We who receive the Gospel through faith are "born anew" into Christ. We "put on" Christ. Christ becomes our Righteousness. We come to God "in Christ" - and though in ourselves we are not perfect - Christ IS! He paid the price to put our sins away so we are able to be "saved" and acceptable to God in Christ. It's like a wedding where the Master gives you the wedding garment - Christ that we "put on" through the "new birth" - a miracle like turning a worm into a butterfly. Though I don't have 100% confidence in myself - I have total confidence in God in Christ. And we have strength from our relationship with the Living Christ Who Lives in us.
Here's one thing I'm 100% sure of: you would make a LOUSY god! (but, that would be true of any man other than JESUS).
I have run across this problem previously in other discussions.
Fact and truth are not interchangeable. Facts are basically evidence. Truth is the state of a fact being true.
Fact (The gun was found in his car, so he killed her)
Truth/Fact (The ballistic tests show that the gun found in his car was not used in her death)
====
Fact (God/Jesus/whatever deity created us/world/universe, because here we are, who else could have created us)
Truth/Fact (There are two dozen religions in this world who all claim creationist stories, none of which have any validity)
====
Fact (Fonzie believes in Christianity, so every thing he believes in true, all other religions are false)
Truth/Fact (Fonzie believes in Christianity, which is one of two dozen religions, created by a guy named Abraham who claimed to have spoken to a burning bush which claimed to be a god, which later became the Jewish religion, which had a prophecy of a savior coming to save the Jewish people, which the Jewish people believe still has not happened, but Christians believe Jesus fulfilled that prophecy).
====
Fact (All religions are made up stories to fill in the unknowns/that which are not understood, such as how the Universe and every thing in it, came to be)
Truth/Fact (All religions are made up stores to fill in the unknowns/that which are not understood, such as how the Universe and every thing in it, came to be)
====
Fact (jesus is the Son of god, and through his Death and Resurrection we have Everlasting Life.)
Truth/christ (I believe in christianity because it proves itself to me every day, god has kept his covenant with Abraham, fulfilled in jesus, the promised Messiah of the jews.)
P.S. It was moses who spoke to the burning bush, not Abraham. If you aren't reading the Word (Bread) of god (Lamb) correctly, it's no wonder you don't realize it's True.
There are no theists on operating tables.
The tantrum continues.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
No, it isn't. A fact is a fact regardless of belief. Faith is completely irrelevant.
These sentences say nothing about nothing, because you don't even know what truth is.
Yeah, me in the real world and you in the imaginary.
I never said there weren't people who allowed themselves to be brainwashed.
No they aren't, you just don't have the tools, knowledge, and skills to see it.
Exactly. You have to put on the mantle of lies, because you certainly weren't born with it.
I'd be a MUCH better god than yours.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vastet,
You illustrate - your "facts" are relevant to your "faith". All your statements (your facts) come from your world view - which you have faith in - with you at the center. When you say to me: "you're in the imaginary world - I'm in the real world" - that statement expresses your faith (in whatever your faith is in - for you - not for me) and your resulting set of "facts" which await a final evaluation. For me, I've tested and found your world, your faith, your facts - "wanting" (to say the least). You have no doubts (I guess) - I have no doubts whatsoever about my faith and facts.
I have faith in the Word of God, God, Jesus, His substitutionary death for those of us who believe in Him. Like you - I'm willing to take it all the way. God has Proven Himself to me by What He has done. I believe Jesus and believe in Jesus. I believe the Bible and believe in the Word of God - to be totally True. This is reality as I see it. You can have the other.
I don't share in your faith or facts whatsoever - AND - I have been delivered from your world of lies and delusion (and I don't mean Canada).