NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER - YES NO MAYBE?
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A life of doubt is no fun - doubts doing, thinking or saying something - then doubts looking back on what's done. I've had the experience - I didn't like it. It's a dark jungle with no map road or reason - or too fast a game in real time. You realize if you admit it you're not necessarily getting anywhere - yet there's the clock, the shot clock, the referrees with whistles, people in stands with agendas, teammates depending on you - and people "coaching" (do your thinking for you). There's statisticians writing down "facts", many facts.
It's obvious you have to put your "confidence" (your faith) in something or somebody - yet who or what? You could put your faith in the statistitian - but statistics (though they ARE facts) don't play the game - they just sit there. You could put your "confidence" (your faith) in the coach - (which might be ok during the game - but what about the rest of the week?) You could put your faith in your teammates - a roll of the dice. That leaves you yourself - which leads to a lonely question: am I right or am I wrong? Doubts anybody?
I was never able to see myself as a source of answers. And, I never saw anybody else that could take you very far without spinning out either.
So for whatever reason I started reading and mining the Bible - and I started finding substance, treasure, jewels and answers from God. It enabled me to go through a "transformation" - a "dying", a "burial" in baptism in water - and a resurrection to a new life in the Light of Christ - along with the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. In this Light I have been enabled to get to know myself before God (in the Presence of God), get to know other people in the Light of Christ, and get to know Christ and God. My faith is not in myself but in God and Jesus. My faith is not in my interpretation of the Word of God - but I know if I can understand it right - it's RIGHT. I have no doubts about God or Jesus whatsoever. They Know What They're doing and They Have all the Answers. I am living in the Presence of God (through faith in the promise and experience of it) 24/7. I don't know everything or anything compared to what there is to know - but I Know God, He Knows, and He can handle it. I can daily "die" to my view and "life" in God's ideas. It's a great trade.
So I report for work every day - take every thought captive and see if it matches up with respect to the Word of God. It's "work security" because we are hit by several thoughts as you know - however; just one at a time (me anyway). The way I see it - it's better to be "alert" than to be "strong" because I can pull little weeds (bad thoughts) and put out little fires (bad emotions) easily. It's not a life of doubts anymore - because I have a Standard, an Authority and a Reference to check these things out. Not only that but the Word of God is "Living and Active" and God and Jesus are "Alive in me" so this is not a matter of worshipping a non-living thing, a fact book - it's animated. I am able to meet life - with LIFE (the Life that is Life Indeed as Jesus said).
I wonder if you Atheists are able to know things for certain or not. If you are certain about the life you are living how did you get there - and how are you daily able to rise out of the jungle of doubts around you - maintain it? If you have hitched your life to a "star" or "stars" (an "expert) how can you be sure he or she is right? If you have faith in yourself - how do concrete answers come from that small world? If your faith and confidence is in "facts only" - how do you animate facts to constantly changing situations of life? Or, have you resigned yourselves to lives of doubt, having convinced yourselves there is nothing better? Have you accepted a life of doubt as the "new normal", resigned to it.
What hope and strength do you have to offer to the world to rise above a life of doubt? My answer is the Gospel of Jesus' death as the Lamb of God taking our sins upon Him on the cross, buried and Raised bodily. I am trusting in that Gospel of grace by faith plus nothing - no suplimental insurance. The Glory is all God's. The Power of the Gospel to deliver proves its genuiness - and I have experienced it first hand. It is certainly available to you all as well.
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I refuse to challenge or debate a faith. Doing so is like challenging a belief that pizza is the best food.
It's a personal opinion. Your belief in your religion is a personal opinion.
Faith is a falsehood. I reject faith.
As I have stated previously, all gods are real or they are all false.
A: If all religions exist because of dogma, writings and followers; then their god(s) do too.
B: All religions exist because of dogma, writings and followers.
C: Therefore all gods exist because of dogma, writings and followers.
Make any claim and I can counter it with another religion. You have nothing special. You have no proof which is superior to other religions. You have no evidence which gives you an advantage.
Digitalbeachbum,
You evidently can't see that you already ARE debating a faith - using YOUR faith to debate my faith. You don't have facts - you simply have faith. The statements you've made are not proveable - they originate in your faith. I admit I don't know what your faith is in but wherever that is - is where your statements of faith come from. I believe you believe these things - but they're not proveable. You probably have so much faith in these statements they seem like proveable facts to you - but they aren't. I have enough faith in Who and What I believe that they are like facts to me, but they are still faith.
While you say "I reject faith" - you don't realize that all these statements you've made (A B and C and everything else) and their supporting statements are NOTHING BUT FAITH. How can you possibly PROVE any of them? You simply believe these things (though unproveable) are true. I have faith in God's Word, Jesus and God - and I believe in Them, and I believe you are sincere but wrong. I believe Who and What I have faith in is very special - but that doesn't prove it to you. Your faith is in something else. There is enough evidence in What and Who I have faith in to prove it to me but not to you.
I'm not debating your faith.
I'm debating either all gods exist or that there are no gods. My arguement has been posted and you have ignored it.
A - All religions are made up of the following
1 - Dogma (the a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true)
2 - Writings (a collection of writings/stories/principles/teachings/fables)
3 - Followers (a person(s) who believe, follow, practice or worship the auhtority of said religion)
B - All god(s) exist because of (A)
C - Either all god(s) are true or all god(s) are false
1 - No religion has evidence to supersede any other religion
2 - No religion has superior teachings
3 - All religions negate all other religions
Like most people of faith you fall prey to your own devices. The more logic and facts presented the more you resist. You are 100% resistant to being open minded nor do you have the ability to change your mind about your religion.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
On the other hand I'm open minded and willing to accept facts and reason. I'm willing to change my mind about god(s) if evidence is presented to show it would be true.
I'd even be willing to say the FSM is real if evidence showed it existed. However you are a sad and disappointing human who lacks the ability to break free from the bonds of ignorance.
I have compassion for your suffering and I understand where it comes from; you will one day break from of your stupidity.
Digitalbeachbum,
This display is all intuitive. You are driving beyond your headlights. If this represents an atheist laying down proveable (and proven) facts and demonstrates applying facts it's a pretty sorry showing. I don't see any facts proven here - just strung out feelings and faith in those feelings.
BTW - you can "divine" my heart and mind? That's quite a gift! Anyway, carry on with your faith. If you are open minded like you say I would suggest you study the A-B-C's and 1-2-3's of the Bible. Though the Bible is to be read or heard and received by faith It is capable of Proving Itself to an open mind like yours. It's your best chance.
LMAO
I'm convinced you are either a troll or you lack the ability to actually form a persuasive argument.
Digitalbeachbum,
Well it appears if you are convinced of something that proves it to you. "Convinced" is another word for "faith".
BTW - think about what convinced you...that's what your "faith" is in. Nothing is being proved fact.
Yep - your title is suitable for you. You are a troll.
Digitalbeachbum,
And...(maybe you already knew this) - throwing out a title or insult (the atheist default) is a lot easier than proving your unproven statements of faith and (as a bonus) showing how you apply them. It's funny how you don't even realize you have faith (albeit in the wrong thing).
I've never seen an atheist yet say what he's absolutly sure of - and prove it. As far as finding answers to life you guys are running the clock out and not finding anything. You atheists need a "Larry Bird" to come through in the clutch.
No insult. You are actually a troll. Just like some people are douches, dickwads, cock suckers or on the other end of the spectrum, awesome, friendly or respectful.
When you act like a troll you are disrespectful to the other person who is presenting an argument. When you totally ignore the statement and go off in another direction with comments that are passive aggressive, then you are a troll.
I am 100% sure of my argument and if you want to deconstruct it, do it with logic and a counter argument.
However, since you are a troll you actually won't bother because it doesn't give you satisfaction to actually debate religion.
All religions have dogma, writings and followers.
Because all religions have dogma, writings and followers, then so do their gods.
All gods are either real or false.
Fonzie is indeed a troll, which is why Zara justifies trolling anyone who responds to him. On 4 or 5 separate occasions at least he's been caught saying things that don't fit the profile of a christian, indeed contradict such a profile.
I continue to respond to his posts because he's very good at pretending to be christian, and approximately 98% of his comments fit the christian profile perfectly. So even though he himself isn't a christian, he still parrots christian arguments as well as any christian would. As such, they should be attacked as if made by a christian, to prevent unwitting people seeing he is not being challenged and deciding he must have unassailable arguments.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I hadn't really had much discussion with him until recently. After a few responses he couldn't come up with any thing more. It was a repeat of words and phrases with out logic.
Sometimes he changes the argument on the fly too. But mostly it's just repetition.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Digitalbeachbum,
Well it looks like you have the support of everybody that's not sure of anything and haven't proved anything. It's a mutual admiration society. Take comfort.
Ah the glorious hypocrisy.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
A: If Fonzie is a troll then he will avoid discussing his claims honestly and with logic.
B: Fonzie avoids discussing his claims honestly and with logic.
C: Therefore Fonzie is a troll
XD
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Digitalbeachbum,
Now that you have expanded your definition of "troll" it looks to me like Atheists are "trolls" and likely projecting this "plight of all plights" "insult of all insults" - that of being a troll. It's logical that the Atheist has a big problem facing this feared fact that for all his ranting against faith he is totally immersed in faith yet unable to face it. This unfaceable fact makes faith a touchy subject indeed. The things that irritate you in other people are things you are doing yet can't face in yourself.
The Atheist then lays out some form of philosophical sophistry that is only serves as a "proof" to fellow Atheists looking for "any port in a storm" - a "proof" that would not be admitted for "proof" of anything except what the Atheist and all Atheists want as "shelter from the storm". If I offered an "A" "B" and "C" like Digitalbeachbum I dare say unlike a stopped clock it wouldn't even be right once a day to the prejudiced Atheist.
I'm thinking the fact the Atheist is "living by faith" (we're not talking faith in God) is a deep seated phobia that I am unqualified for as to "intervention". It's a long road and not going to be easy.
^ Fonzie pretends we're the ones making shit up, failing to respond to points, and failing to use logic. But everyone laughs at his blatant lies.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Fonzie
Not that you care to actually debate or form a logical argument, but you lack any sort of cohesion or logic in your posts.
Digitalbeachbum,
My position is one of faith and I know it is based on faith - and I am very happy about Who and What my faith is in. It's not proveable to you by me and I'm not debating my unproveable faith WITH you - it's faith and I know it is. The "debate" you speak of is happening away from me - IOW, I have no debate with you on What or Who I believe in. Nothing you "debate" with your fellow Atheists has anything to do with me or my faith. I know you don't believe in Who or What I believe in and - happily it's your choice and I'm fine with that so understand there's no debate and there's no argument, ok? You are free to believe Vastet or Darwin or Leviticus or whoever or whatever it is you believe and have confidence in.
But know that your statements are not "creating truth, fire and light" just because you state them - nor are your "ABC's" proving anything about anything to me. If they prove something to you and you're satisfied with your "ABC's" of proof then just go ahead and be satisfied and don't feel the need to debate it with me. I'm ok with you believing it and you know there are people that don't agree with you right? - and I am happy to be one of them. Why should I try to debate and bring you out of your happy and fulfilled state of being - your peaceful state of mind and life?
If you have time and inclination however you might go on to describe what it is about your cohesion and said logic that have accomplished this transformation - of making you a well rounded and happy individual and what it is about it that gives you the strength and the basis for elevating those around you and your everyday quality of life to carry on; not a debate, just a logical exploration of how your faith works for you and supports you. I WOULD be interested in understanding that.
The delusions are strong with you.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
We live in a logical world. There are specific actions and reactions which can be explained when one observes them and studies the outcome. Every thing in society is based on this logic. You have cars, tires, engines, gasoline, electric, houses, planes, hospitals, etc, etc etc. None of this would exist with out logic and science.
That which can not be explained is either non-existent or the science has not been understood yet.
Digitalbeachbum,
Are you inferring that because I have faith in God - a faith that you determine I can't prove to you (to your satisfaction) (though I can prove God completely to me) - that I can't deal with logical things like wheels, golden section, trigonometry, algebra, leverage, electricity, momentum, etc., etc., etc., because faith exists? No, even though I have faith in God I have dealt with all these things you mention with some degree of success in 53 years of construction and survived.
Know that your life is also based on many things you can't prove and have to resort to faith (that logical word you hate) in something or somebody - even just to make ordinary conversation - yet I assume you also deal with these other logical things you listed as well.
So it's logical to conclude: that faith and logic are not "mutually exclusive". The fact is we both operate with some degree of faith that doesn't necessarily interfere with functioning in a logical (though not completely understood) world.
I have heard Atheists say and infer radical things like (paraphrased): there would be no ( ) or ( ) except for "us infidels that make it our goal and career to insult and blaspheme all things we don't believe in or understand". That <>Digitalbeachbum<> isn't logical or cohesive in the least. It may in fact be a result of bad faith (or bad light). I have two medical doctors that both believe in God and are logical and friends as well that I trust. Again friendship is something that can't be proved scientifically but I have faith in them and they're logical as can be.
1 - I never said any such thing.
2 - A person who believes in Hinduism and Vishnu is 100% rightous as you are too. Both gods exist.
3 - I do not operate with any faith. Either I know or I do not know. While I suspect that the sun will rise tomorrow. I know that there is a sun and that this planet orbits it at a specific rate, that the same planet spins on its axis at a specific rate, that there are X number of hours in the day, Y number of hours of night and that tomorrow at a specific time, the sun will peek over the horizon and tell us "time to get up sleepy head"
I do not believe any god(s) play a part in our lives. There are no miracles. There are no specific plans created by a creator. Religions have come and they have gone. They will continue to come and go until such a time that mankind finally "gets it". That will happen when the last brick of the last church, falls and hits the last preacher in the skull, killing them thus ending all religions and mankind can get on with make a more stable and balanced society.
4 - My brother is a doctor who goes to church and he does it because it is a social thing. He doesn't believe in god, no one in his family does, but they still go and they still talk about god, but they do not believe in it.
5 - Friendship can be tested. Friendship exists. We see it come and go. Friends one day, non-friends the next. The same thing can't be claimed by any religions. There as never been any one who has actually spoken or sensed a god(s). They do not exist. They did not create the Universe. They will die when all religions die.
(Digitalbeachbum QUOTE): (3) "I do not operate with any faith. Either I know or I do not know" "I do not believe...." "He doesn't believe in God, no one in his family does but they still go and still talk about God but they do not believe...." "The same thing can't be claimed by any religions" "There has never been any one who has actually spoken or sensed a God (s) They do not exist. They did not create the universe."
It is pretty entertaining to see how just as you keep breathing you keep basing everything you say on your faith - i.e.; faith in yourself or some expert you have embraced. Yet for you to admit this faith to yourself (let alone to me) is not something you can do. I think you really "believe" you don't "believe" (in yourself or anybody or anything). So I guess that's where the "fact" comes in. You treat your denial of faith as a fact though obviously to me it isn't fact. To you admitting faith must be as foreign as the thought of entering a church building. You can't imagine that to be something you would do or think or be. Yet it's obvious you can't get out of bed without standing in faith let alone walk out the door. But you seem to think you have a grocery cart of facts you're pushing around everywhere and everything you do and think and say comes out of the "fact cart".
Another thing you as a dedicated Athest want to be known for is your "fearful flamethrowing blatent blasphemous honesty". I could see you saying something like "all Christians are phoney - but we Atheists tell it like it is". This too is entertaining as you walk by your faith in denial of it and also recite your doctrine based on your faith. But I guess it's as you say - either you know or you do not know - and in the most fundamental way you don't and can't know what you display you don't - or see what you stumble over not seeing.
So the argument seems to divide up like this: the Athiest doesn't believe God is. He thinks he can "prove" his faith - it but he can't because that belief he has is simply faith which in reality he can't prove or admit even to himself.
Then the Atheist turns on the Christian demanding he prove his faith in God to said Atheist who is in denial and dreamworld as to his own faith in himself. Then the Atheist lays out what he has faith in as HIS proof for faith in nothing but won't admit is faith and isn't proof. So this is where we are: we are involved in a dishonest based discussion based on denial and faith phobia.
If we could frame it like this: the Atheist has faith there is no God and why he believes that <versus> the Christian believes God IS and why he believes that...I "believe" this could be an honest discussion. If you want to take that on - you could say why you "believe" there is no God (knowing you can't prove it) and then you could enumerate how this faith there is no God works for you, helps you know things, inspires you, fulfills you, guides you and helps you admit the truth even though it may incriminate you - that would be a discussion I would like to have.
I stand by my previous logical argument, which you fail to address every time you post your gibberish.
Digitalbeachbum,
I HAVE been commenting on it. Just as you don't recognize your argument is based on your faith (and doesn't prove anything) you don't recognize my comment on it.
Digitalbeachbum,
Maybe it would be interesting for you to see Christopher Hitchens get his rear handed to him by John Lennox - admittedly even by fellow atheists.
Christopher Hitchens vs John Lennox | Is God Great? Debate
LMAO - What exactly is this supposed to be? Is this one of those times when you have a moment where an atheist has a not so good day and a relgious believer has a so so good day?
I also noticed that the debate is edited, so I'd like to see the entire debate. I also noticed FIXED POINTED did the editing, so that is discouraging because their desire is to promote the gospel.
At :52 Hitch sums up the entire debate. Case closed. I don't care what else he said or didn't say, one debate doesn't change things.
Atheists operate in a neutral stance for their opinions about a creator of the Universe. We reject all religions because there is no supporting evidence.
There is no evidence which makes your god, their god or any one elses god superior to all the other gods.
There is no evidence which makes your religion, their religion or any one elses religion superior to all the other religions.
ZERO. NADA. ZILCH. You have no evidence.
Digitalbeachbum,
Well, as John Lennox said you certainly have the right and free will to choose your god (or God) which is a great privilege and a serious thing - and I respect that. I am not compelled or driven to confirm my choice by trying to force you to choose the God I have chosen - the God of the Bible, God of Abraham, Creator of Heaven and Earth, Father of Jesus Christ - though I honestly would offer JEHOVAH as the right choice. This is a choice that we should bring all the honesty and courage we have to bear - in making this choice, and that honesty is something you will have to scrutinize in yourself to your complete satisfaction.
Atheists say that Christians 'escape reality in the God of Grace in Christ' - did you notice John Lennox points out you could equally say Atheists excape reality in their Atheism. I don't want to excape anything in facing the Truth or leave anything in myself unconfronted. I don't want to be distracted by yours or other's desires for what they think they want and therefore try to justify. I don't want to pass this subject off as a joke or hide behind insulting remarks, mocking or sarcasm. I just want the down to earth simple Truth - and I have found that in Jesus personally to my total satisfaction. It just gets better and better, stronger and stronger. I believe what Jesus says about Himself and it is confirmed by what I experience in Him. I am personally experiencing the Gift of the Holy Spirit as promised in the transformation I was enabled to go through being "born anew" of the water and the Spirit. The flame of faith burns high and is very real. Jesus is Alive and Working in me and other believers. I have plenty of evidence personally.
You have claims for which you think you have evidence - but they are completely the result of your faith in your own and other's perception of the world, what's fact to you, (what you consider "fact) and who you consider "experts". This is fine with me but it's interesting you have such a great aversion to admitting the fact that your position is only supported by your faith (as all Atheists seem to have and hate to do). I think it's because this position forces you to admit your Atheism is simply your religion - just a different faith, a different god. You would like to think you are on a higher level than the Christian and your position is supported by facts. But it honestly is nothing more than your faith. You actually have no hard fact evidence - ZILCH, ZERO, NADA.
I have never seen an example of free will other than some one allowing their emotions to dictate their actions, words or thoughts.
The fact that you pick a religion explains a lot. You haven't come to a logically conclusion and have accepted an assumption.
LMAO - Rinse and Repeat. You are not too bright. The burden of proof would be in your hands.
Dogma, writings and followers. HAHAHAHA. You are just like all the rest of them. You are no different from a Hindu or a Scientologist.
Digitalbeachbum,
The principle you mention >"I have never seen an example of free will other than some one allowing their emotions to dictate their actions, words or thoughts" < is a big mistake. Do you realize here you are saying you don't see anything other than "letting your feelings run your life"?
If I was doing this I would view myself as getting blown around by the wind. This isn't being "rooted and grounded" in life - which means having real life and design. This approach has no foundation or destination. As Hitchens said you guys have the problem of finding real meaning and inspiration in your nothingness. According to Scripture which you deny to yourself as being true - you will never find the way within yourselves. It's not in man to direct his steps.
I don't view my faith as a "religion" BTW I was only using your word as a comparison. I view my life as faith in the Living Christ Who Lives in me and in the living written Word of God - a reference that is not changing. This is very different than navigation through life by "feelings". To view my faith as a "religion" would mean to me that I am somehow "paying" for my salvation by what I am doing. Instead my faith is totally in What Jesus did taking my sins upon Himself and paying my debt to God with His Blood. He totally paid the debt. I have faith in Him PLUS NOTHING. I am just trying to please Him and work with Him - which is what true happiness is.
As far as how bright I am - I am glad to become a fool that I may become wise in God and Christ. The alternative is to falsely view oneself as wise while being a fool. What any of us know in comparison to what there is to know is like comparing a dot to the universe. It's a good thing to keep in mind - and I don't view myself as wise. What about you?
I agree there are things about us that are alike. We are both part of fallen man for example. But - as far as where we differ - you can't really get to know your own uniqueness - IOW get to really know yourself - except by first Knowing your Designer and Maker. In God and Christ we are able to really get to know ourselves - not by judging ourselves by ourselves or comparing ourselves to ourselves. That's a miserable lonely trip. In Christ we have light to see ourselves as we are.
One thing you didn't comment on is the object of your faith other than navigating by your feelings. How would you describe the extent of what your faith is in? Do you see your faith going beyond yourself or beyond those you view as "experts", smarter than you? Or do you see anybody as smarter than you?
I submit the following article for you to read so that you may better understand my position on life and the human condition.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/feeling-our-emotions/
I have no faith. Faith does not exist for me because it is a blind assumption.
Digitalbeachbum,
I got busy last week, hastily read the link but wanted to read it again which I just did. So it appears you are conscious of your brain producing different chemicals that give you different emotions and you get to experience this happening understanding it's just a chemical reaction. That gives meaning to your experience. To me it seems like a violinist playing a piece of music while thinking instead about the blood flowing back and forth through his arm and fingers. It seems to be missing something - the point.
One "something" from Scripture I see missing in this view is "spirit". The real "you" in the middle of this life we find ourself in - is your "spirit". This is where you and I "live", and know what we're thinking and apply our experience and knowledge to things. This is "what's happenig now" in us as we work on that small table of our "heart" (seat of emotions). When those of us who accept the Gospel are "born anew" into Christ we are promised the "gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of our inheritance". Just as in our "spirit" we are able to discern our own thoughts - the Spirit of God Knows and shares the Thoughts of God and enables us to understand the Written Word of God.
Jesus has made it possible for our fallen spirits to be "made new" - to become a "new creation" in Him, in Christ. This is like turning the lights on in our spirits. It enables us to see what's going on in the Light of Christ. Before the Light came into us we didn't know what we were stumbling over. Now we can see and learn more and more and gain experience. You don't really ever get to start to know yourself as you really are though until you come to God and accept Christ. You don't really ever understand yourself until you start getting to know your Maker and Master. This requires giving up some confidence in your thoughts and accepting instead God's Thoughts.
This is offensive to man. Man doesn't want to see himself as a helpless beggar outside the Gate of God. Man doesn't want to submit. Man doesn't want or think he needs help. Man wants to see himself as being good and righteous on his own. So there are barriers to coming to God in Christ. And there are active intelligences opposing it. But it is great to be "in Christ". It is efficient to submit yourself to God's Word (which doesn't change). It is refreshing to see yourself as you are - it enables honesty and security and living without doubts.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
You're welcome - and good luck with your search Diogenes.
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