Well then, looks like you're going to hell. I mean you can be forgiven for anything except blaspheming the holy spirit. I mean, I guess they're just a bit petty up there. No hope now. Sorry.

Y'know, there's probably no point being Christian because God clearly won't forgive you.

Alternatively none of it exists. Hmmmm. I wonder...

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

Yeah. Once you accept eternal damnation as 'righteous' you give up all morality in favour of submission to a big bully, and anyone who convinces you that they speak for this bully will control you.

On the subject of Christians and which self-proclaimed ones make it, I always wondered what Capitalist Fundies would make of this passage:

Why?

IF god were real, which i don't believe for a second, he abandoned his "right" to do anything to you the instant he granted free will. IF he is real, when you die and go to stand before the pearly gates for judgement, if god condemns you for "blasphemy", give him the finger. 

So you need to live under threat of having the crap beat out of you forever? I dont find that appealing at all. 

I think it takes much more strenght to do something without being threatened or bribed. Since when did coaxing teach anyone anything but how to be lead by the nose?

Ok, let me understand this? I get a cookie if I say, "I love you" even if I dont. Or I get the crap beat out of me forever if I say, "Hey I dont want to be part of your club".

Thats not love, that is emotional blackmail.

If love is freely given, then I should not be burned forever merely for dying without belief in a deity.

If my punishment is burning in hell for not kissing the butt of Jesus, that would be like sticking someone in the gillotine for jaywalking.

I dont need a disimbodied voice to tell me not to rob my neihbor. I dont need stories about talking bushes or zombie gods who rise after 3 days, to tell me not to molest little children. I dont need stories about magical dirt turning into bone to tell me that raping a woman is wrong.

If that belief in fiction stops you, be my guest, we dont need more criminals in the world, we have enough all ready.

Well, traci, I could show you that this is a false analogy, and could get into an argument about it, but here's my question, and I'd like you to answer it from the bottom of your heart.  (Remember, if there's a god, he knows the answer anyway, so if you say it, it's not like there's anything new for god's ears, right?)

How do you feel about it?  If you were going to be god, would you set things up that way?  So that just by uttering two little words, someone would be tortured for billions of years before they get tortured for billions more years?  Skin burning off of their supernatural flesh for eternity, screaming and wondering what it was they did to deserve it, when they tried to be a good person all their life, but they just said two little words once!?

Please, please don't just answer by saying you're not god.  That's a cop out.  I want to know how you feel about it.

When you're little, going to little religious camps, they always tell you "God loves you no matter what, God loves everyone!"
I now see that that is a load of crap.

If you seriously think that you're going to hell for saying that... Why worry your whole life now? If there isn't a god and you spent your whole life worrying about going to hell... Well you kinda wasted your life dontcha think?

Actually, some people did throw eggs at the president's car at the first inauguration of Emperor Bunnypants.  And you know what?  I don't condemn them.  Compared to the crimes of George W. Bush, throwing eggs at his car was nothing.  He got into office using dubious means.  (Check out who interrupted the recount.) He lied us into war.  He set up illegal wiretapping.  He outed a CIA agent.  He fired US attorneys for political reasons...ad nauseum.

I wonder...what happened to the people who threw eggs at the president's car?  I never saw it on the news.  I only knew it happened because I seek news other than that portrayed by the corporate media, which for some reason, didn't want it to be known that someone threw eggs at the president's car.  What happened to the people who threw eggs at the president's car?  At one point, I would have wanted them fined.  At this point, when it seems we have no legal recourse for change...well, hand me a fucking egg!

(Yes, I'm going somewhere with this.)

So, suppose there was another self-righteous bully, a supernatural, omniscient, omnipotent self-righteous bully.  Suppose this bully did much worse things than Pretzeldent Bush.  Suppose this bully flooded the entire world except for one family.  Suppose this bully commanded genocide.  Suppose this bully tortured people forever if they blasphemed against him.  Wouldn't you want to throw eggs at his car? Did you already, metaphorically, throw eggs at his car by blaspheming the holy spirit?  What do you think such a tyrant would do to you?

There is at least one major flaw to this analogy.  I am pretty sure I can prove George W. Bush exists. Thank GOD the supernatural self-righteous bully DOES NOT. 

That's what I want to know. 

{FIXED}

I'll tell you. You have. Just by reading, or watching the Blasphemy Challenge, that image, the "fine print" of the words have already formed in your thought, and one side of your lower consciousness has already substituted you in the place of the real writer/speaker of those words. It's just how the brain works. But we couldn't ask so much from the Bronze-Age tribesmen that wrote the Bible to know that, can we?

It's a state of the mind, just like one of the commandments: thou shalt not covet. Physically, it's perfectly applicable. Mentally, it is impossible.

To demonstrate: try NOT to think of a purple flamingo. Did you think about it? Well, there you go...

It strikes me that there's a soup in a theist's head about religions alltogether. Allah isn't the "bad guy" in the story, it's actually the "good guy" of Islam. According to Christianity, he doesn't exist. According to Islam, Yahweh (or God) doesn't exist as well.

There are numerous questions to be asked even considering what you posted.

1. If there would be no more theocracy until Christ returns, could you please explain where, for example, the Inquisition came from? Also, a theocracy on Israel, in case you haven't realized, would be a simply insignificant... something there on the face of the earth. By the time the Jews discovered their Jesus, there were numerous other nations and cultures far more populated and advanced. Also, please tell us where that "no more theocracy until Christ returns" comes from? I don't remember finding that in the Bible.

2. A theocracy doesn't necessarily mean murdering people. And even if it does, it certainly doesn't mean murdering people "just because they were in the way", like the Jews did, according to the Bible (and to be frank, I'm not exactly sure that actually ever happened). So that excuse is... well... no excuse

3. What if Satan was the one that "inspired" the Bible, to lead us to a false belief, punishable by Hell ? Can you discount that possibility? Because, considering the sheer stupidity of some verses and the extreme cruelty of others, this is actually a very significant possibility.

4. But of course, it didn't happen that way (what I said at 3), did it? No, it didn't. Because the Bible was neither wrote, nor even "inspired" by a god. The Bible, as we currently see it, is the product of years of filtration and discussions on the matter. Just study about the Councils, especially the first and the second ones at Nicaea. Yes, it was written and hand-picked by humans.

Homework: answer these.

Okay. I'm working on it now.  

I'm like an upsidedown version of you. If you were to read your post from the last sentence to the first...you would sound like me.  

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Hey Traci!  Like the others, I am concerned for you.  As far as your immediate worry, though, I think the fact that you do believe now trumps anything that happened before.

I will, however, encourage you to question anything that mandates that level of fear and causes you to question who you are.  With or without Christianity, you are most likely a very good person who knows right from wrong; love from hate so please remember that.

 Also, please continue to read these threads and educate yourself on the history of the bible.  Those stories are not grounded in fact so your fears are unfounded.

Seriously, JCE is right. We are concerned for you. Look, I'm going to be quite blunt. You are not going to hell!! It is fiction. You're not going to heaven either. Nor purgatory or Limbo or whatever the hell there is between, nor is your spirit going to haunt the earth. Your body is going to go into the ground, it will be eaten by worms and bacteria and new life will flourish because of your lack of life. This life is for living, not for fearing the next (which will not actually happen). Live, blaspheme, have fun but do not harm anyone and you'll have a life worth living.

tracifish, I'm going to say this straight: You're ****ed up. I too was afraid of God and his unsurpassed powers once. I knew he could squash me like a bug if he wanted.

 So here's what you must do: Stop this madness. Let go of your God delusion. It only makes your life more miserable. There is no victory in living in fear of a non-existent god. No, you will not go to hell, nor heaven, because neither exists.

It is time for you to do what many people do when they are converted, except this time you do this completely the opposite:

Deny the existence of Jesus Christ. Tell to yourself that he didn't die for our sins, and he wasn't the son of God.

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. They don't believe in hell, but they're convinced the rapture (armageddon) is just around the corner. Do you know the funny thing? They've been saying it's just around the corner for over a hundred years! And it's the same with all these other doomsday cults - sorry, I mean religions. Just look back at the history of the one you're in- the rapture isn't a new idea, every generation thinks they are the ones who will experience it, every generation has been wrong. We're just the latest generation to be told these lies, in order to keep us in the cults, sorry, religions.

Traci...I know I'm gonna get shouted down by this bunch in their efforts to convert you, but I have to tell you that there are no limits to the mercy of God, but that anyone who deliberatley refuses to accept His mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Spirit. 

I dunno what your particular "blasphemy" was, nor do I care, there is no sin which cannot be forgiven save the belief that one's sin cannot be forgiven by God.  I can tell you don't meet that criteria, so you're quite alright.

Mr. Burns is an excellent representation for you...you're a cranky one.  LOL

I would never presume to condescend to you, Brian.  You're far too rational to be taken in by a dleuded old theist like myself.  I did read in this thread, though, the suffering of another and thought I might present the opposing view for her consideration.

Believe me when I say that I have no need to adopt any lost puppies, I've got enough of my own running around here already. 

Traci - one point I don't think I was very clear on is that the true sin against the Holy Spirit is doubting the willingness of God to forgive sinners like us.  Good luck and God bless.

Excuse me, but did you read my post?  I have no interest in converting anyone, however, I am concerned for Traci if she has been told to fear hell to the extent that she seems to.  I agree with you that according to the tenets of christianity the mercy and love of god trumps everything.  I never did accept a god that was all fire and brimstone although the bible certainly could lead someone to believe that is true.  That is why I encouraged her to research the bible and learn it's history.  This will go a long way toward helping her understand her own beliefs.  Unreasonable fear is not conducive to belief or non-belief.

I also have no interest in shouting you down.  It does bother me a bit that this is your opinion of everyone here. *sniff*

You know what this answer should tell you? That your god is what you want it to be.

My point is that "all powerfull" means "unlimited in power".

So if one is going to take that position then this "all powerfull" god must be capable of asking you to kill someone.

"He says he wouldnt do that" only states what he says.

I am not talking about what he says. I am adressing the issue of capability.

The truth is that you want to think of such a claimed being of not doing something like that. But once you claim he cant ask you to kill me you have placed a limit on his power. If he is "all powerfull" then part of his unlimited power is the capability of asking someone to kill someone else, otherwise you cannot logically assign the atribute "all powefull" to such a claimed deity.

If he cant, he is not all powerfull.

If he can, he is a monster.

The point of this example is not to insult anyone. It is to understand the inconsistancy in the use of logic claiming "all powerfull".

That is why I say to you that it is YOU that wants your deity to do nothing but good. Why? Because to think of a parent of doing bad is an ugly thought.

However, god must be capable of anything, including being a monster, otherwise "all" becomes a meaningless sequence of letters.