I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.
Posted on: March 14, 2007 - 9:35pm
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I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.
I'm listening...
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You speak Greek?
Sugarfree,
Do you believe that god made everything?
If yes, then he made Adam and Eve and the Garden, and everything they knew at the time they were created, and everything they'd ever interact with, right? And he made them that way, knowing they would fall.
So, who's responsibility is it for us falling? Little old us? Or the omnipotent, omniscient, "perfect" creator?
(There's also the issue with punishing adam and eve for their actions when they didn't even know there was such a thing as good and evil.)
Can something that is perfect become imperfect? If a perfect being chose to become imperfect, that would seem to be an imperfect choice, would it not? If god is perfect, then anything he creates would be perfect, right? So how could his perfect creations become imperfect?
-Triften
It wouldnt do any good to ponder it, because it's already known what camp I would fall into. If your god were to "exist," I would have no problem summoning the courage to ask him why he created people he knew wouldn't be "saved," and therefore banished to eternity in hell. And then I'd give him a swift kick in the nuts, because he'd deserve it.
How is loneliness the result of sin? Or anxiety? I have a little anxiety because I have an important appointment for work this afternoon. How is this the result of any sin?
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
triften: Do you believe in free will, or do you believe that everything is predetermined? Christians believe in free will. If you try to make sense of the Christian message without the concept of free will, you will definitely go round and round.
If God has free will to choose or not too choose, and he made us in his image (which we believe), then it follows that we also inherited the right to choose and not to choose. God didn't create us to be robots. He created us with the ability to love him or not to love him...
The fact that we have free will, yet parts of the Bible say God already knows who will choose him is paradoxical. There is truth in paradox, but that truth is not always visible at first glance.
What if it is as easy as this...If I want to be one of God's predetermined, than I am. All it takes is that simple shift in will. I don't have to decide "am I or am I not." I just decide that I am. That is another paradox of God's character. He is both simple and infinitely complex.
As far as Adam and Eve, I am not a fundamentalist who believes the Bible is completely black and white. I believe God has depth and complexity, therefore, his word also reflects that depth and complexity.
Also, if we as human have the ability to communicate truth in our fiction via symbolism, then it follows that God also employs the same technique in his word (going back to...we are made in his image). So did Adam and Eve exist, or is it symbolism thru which he is trying to teach us an eternal truth?
A child's mind cannot grasp all things. If a child asks me, How are baby's made, I'm not going to teach him the details of sex because that would damage the child who is not ready for that knowledge. God, in the same way, has revealed his truth to us in small, manageable bites so that we do not become overwhelmed...because, he is too big and awsome for us to take in in one bite. The creation story, whether absolute fact or symbolic fiction is one of those bites.
You even state:
This is the power of faith. Once you are confronted with evidence that contradicts your religion, you must turn the faith-o-meter dial up more.
This is where you and I differ. I am willing to change my position on any matter, if questioning reveals that my beliefs are wrong.
By the way, Radio waves can be reflected, refracted, and polarized, and exhibit interference and diffraction effects.
This provides evidence for the existence of radio waves. When and if your god has comparable evidence, I will believe. Until that day, I see no reason whatsoever to believe in this hypothetical, illogical, indefinable figment of human imagination.
Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll
You are not.
No thanks. I spent about 18 years asking questions, and finally realized I was talking to nothing.
Insanity is what it is. There is nothing that differentiates what you're doing from the Egyptians who worshipped cats.
Your last sentence is quite revealing, and typical of theists. You grant your god all of these humanistic parental attributes, as if this makes any sense at all. You do it, because it's all you understand. You figure if it's not something you can get your head around, then it must be impossible. Or, if it's not a pleasant thought, i.e. the idea that there is no afterlife, then it cant be true either. You come in here challenging the folks here to convert you, but the truth is you couldnt be converted unless we could prove to you that we went to some Neptunian utopia after we died. You cling to religion because it provides comfort and a false sense of purpose. Just admit it, and stop claiming you're on some quest for truth. I suffer because of the sins of Adam and Eve? Give me a fucking break. If you actually believe ini the story of A&E in the first place, you need to have your head examined.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
"This is not the point of church at all. The point is spirituality, goodness, humbleness, shedding of pride and arrogance are virtues that are not easy to acheive."
Wrong. The point of going to church is to collect everybody's money. For churchgoers, the point is to spread and collect nasty gossip about your 'friends.'
"Christians believe in free will."
...Despite the fact that the attributes of their god remder the existence of free will an impossibility. See Omniscience.
"So, if my God is real, what camp do you think you would fall into? The saved or those who are damned to hell? Are you brave enough to ponder that question?"
If god is real and all you think he is, he wouldn't care on whit whether you believe in him or not.
"What if it is as easy as this...If I want to be one of God's predetermined, than I am." Then you either do not know what PREdetermined means or you are irrational.
"But I became discontented with the pursuit of knowledge as its own end. What's the point? What good is it?"
What's the point of a perfect god wasting his time creating things? What god is god?
I accept that you do not have faith in God. However, do you not believe in the concept of faith in general?
I have faith that gravity will hold my feet on the earth, that my car is going to start in the morning, That my heart is going to keep beating as I write this, that the cauliflower I am eating is going to digest in my stomach. I don't think about these things, or worry that they will/won't happen. I just take it on faith that they will, so that I can focus on other, more important/interesting things.
Can a person live totally without faith of any kind? I see faith as a virtue, but take from your message that you see it more as a vice. Am I correct, or misreading your intent?
(Capital 'T'
Truth is dogma -- it's what people claim when they don’t have facts, and is an illusion perpetuated by those who require something constant and absolute to cling to in a world that is ever changing.
There is reasonable faith, and then there is the religious faith you are defending. Two completely different things. The examples of faith you provided (ie., gravity, or faith that the sun will rise in the east come morning) are based on things like evidence and rational/naturalistic experience that provide a sane and reasonable chance of occurring.
I happen to have utter contempt for delusional religious faith, and these quotes from others best describe why I do:
"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.... A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ass: he is actually ill." ~ H.L. Mencken, New York Times Magazine, 11 September 1955"Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail." ~ Sam Harris
"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)
"Faith is the antithesis of proof." ~ NY State Supreme Court Justice Edward J. Greenfield, 1995
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true." ~ Mark Twain [Samuel Clemens] (1835-1910)
"Faith is an absolutely marvelous tool. With faith there is no question too big for even the smallest mind." ~ Rev. Donald Morgan (b. 1933)
"Faith," said St. Paul, "is the evidence of things not seen." We should elaborate this definition by adding that faith is the assertion of things for which there is not a particle of evidence and of things which are incredible." ~ E. Haldeman-Julius
"Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith." - Unknown
"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits." ~ Dan Barker
"Faith is believing in things when common sense tells you not to." ~ George Seaton
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." ~ Richard Dawkins
In fact, she found out later that her father was in the exact same denomination that she choose. What a coincedence /sarcasm
I'm not. And who cares.
Suppose my parents raised me from an early age to believe that Bob was god. Every sunday I had to go with them to a building set aside for worshipping Bob , and reading passages from Bob's biography. When I doubted that Bob was god, or just failed to pay rapt attention, my parents would discipline me, and tell me I would go to hell if I didn't worship Bob. Since I had been raised without any other option than to believe in Bob, I held onto the belief as I grew older, and concluded that Bob must have existed beyond any doubt, and anyone who didn't believe in Bob was wrong. Then, in college, I learn that there actually is no historical evidence for Bob, and that most of the stories attributed to Bob are just myths. Having come by this knowledge, should I give up my belief in Bob, or should I remain willfully ignorant and continue to go through life as if this Bob myth is true? Replace 'Bob' with 'Jesus', and you essentially have the decision I faced back in college. You can probably guess what my decision was.
You seem here to be discounting, if not deriding, the merits of 'book knowledge'. I draw from this that you are tolerating, if not praising ignorance. It seems your decision to remain ignorant is commensurate with your continuing faith in jesus.
You accuse me of 'showing off' my knowledge. Take care to note I was responding to your attempted demonstration of 'knowledge', in listing some ancient texts along with their dates. Apparently it's ok to profess 'knowledge' when done in support of jesus, but when done to demystify jesus, it is 'showing off'. I'm not at all certain what "tone" you are referring to in my response. I consider it a fallacy that you would mention the writings of Plato and Aristotle in support of the history accuracy of the New Testament. Explain to me how it is not, and I will certainly change my "tone". At present, I am still declaring that there is not historical support for the person of jesus, and you have not yet provided a response in refutation of that.
You cynically ask "What's the point of having knowledge for knowledge's sake if you do not use it to lift other people up, help them, strenthen them". What is your opinion of the polio vaccine? Pasteurization? Solar energy? The Internet? Have these things "lifted people up, strengthened them"? What is the source of these things? Knowledge. Not the bible, not jesus. By any standard, knowledge has done more for the human condition than blind faith in jesus.
Thank you for remaining open-minded and giving all views a fair and balanced consideration.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Shoring up beliefs and draining the faithful of their money are the main reasons for the existence of church services. I bet I've been to more of them than you have.
As for virtue, I'm a much better person without a religion that convinced me homosexuals are evil and that anyone who didn't believe what I believed was going to hell. I did some pretty nasty things in the name of religion. I bet I can make a better case for "religion is evil" than you can for "religion is good."
Methinks you doth protest too much.
I was a Christian for many, many years. It's nothing but a big lie.
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You didn't even look at the evidence. This shows me you are not here in "good faith," if you'll pardon the pun.
If you want someone who speaks Greek, I'm sure Rook Hawkins will vouch that the author of Matthew had a rotten translation of Isaiah and based his story of the birth of Jesus on it. It is one of many errors in the bible.
Biblical Errors --> http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy
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After reading this thread, I must say this: No, you aren't.
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You won't even admit you're wrong about the "prophecy" in Isaiah. So, to whom are you lying? Yourself? Us? Both?
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Were you looking for this:
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Are you a Republican, or worse, a Bush-supporter?
One of the worst things about faith is it causes people to blindly support anyone the church tells them to support. In this case, it's been an unmitigated disaster. Only someone with his / her head up his / her ass could still support Pretzeldent Bush. That would include most fundy or evangelical Christians.
"Faith is not the result of fuzzy thinking; it is the cause of it." - Dan Barker, former fundamentalist preacher
Religion is going to get us all killed if we don't stop it first.
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There is a difference between reasoned faith ( the examples you provided), and blind faith ( the type required to believe in the christian myth). What one must “believe” to be a Christian is nothing similar to what one must “believe” to adhere to the digestion of food, the continuation of your heartbeat etc…
To adhere to the Christian dogma, one must believe events ( dead people coming back to life, virgin births, superpowers, deity w/ emotions etc…) contrary to evidence…. This is Blind FaithReason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll
Yes religon is going to kill us becuase religons split apart Christanity thus putting them against eachother but Chirstanity itself won't kill anyone. And George Bush is just an example of how powerful God is . How the heck did he get in office.Explain that Science.
Why are you all so angry? I don't get it.
Why at all would you think I am angry? I am all too delighted to be engaged in such an open-minded and heartfelt discussion. I am looking forward to nothing other than your insightful and well-thought-out responses to my postings.
I sincerely apologize if my overly-coarse syntax created the false impression that I am angry.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Could you please be more specific; who is angry? I believe you are falling for the old “ atheists are just angry at god” bit. I have not witnessed any anger here, however; I have witnessed excellent questions that you have failed to respond to.
I admit that many here do not sugar coat their concerns. A kinder, more gentler atheist may eventually come along and talk to you.
Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll
First off, is the hatred in this comment supposed to convince me to become an atheist? Because, if becoming an atheist is going to make me start swearing at people I don't even know on the internet, then I'm not sure it is such an enlightening human philosphy.
Secondly, I'd venture to guess you do not understand the nature of evil, which is why you do not understand some of the things George Bush is trying to do. I don't agree with everything he does, nor would I agree 100% with what any president would do. But, do you realize, Islamic terrorists have been at war with us since the 1920's (and it's not because we are a Christian nation or because they are Muslim, it is because they are a group of people who are filled with fear and hatred. That's what hatred does, it fills the mind, corrupts it, blinds it from the truth), we just didn't know they were at war with us until they bombed the towers.
The terrorists are using their propagnda to convince us that we have caused all the problems of this world, and to tear our country apart from the inside. It will work if we can't, at the very least, speak to each other in civil terms.
Okay, geez, I haven't had time to look it up in my Bible yet. This discussion is one against many. Give me a couple minutes at least! (Well, I'm at work now, won't be able to look it up until tonight.)
I'm being sweared at. That's not hostile to you?
Well, contrary to what you may think at this moment, I'm not dumb and can sense the anger and sarcasm of your words... Can't write more now. Going back to work.
Sorry to include everyone in the "all". You are right, some here are being courteous in their questioning and I appreciate that much.
The conversation you are involved in discussing politics might be a little heated. A Person can get worked up over politics, regardless of his or her religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I do honestly hope that you find the answers you seek.
Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll
Invading Iraq as a response to 9/11 made as much sense as invading Switzerland would have after pearl Harbor.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
[derail]
Fact is, some neocons in the Bush administration actually believed even attacking parts of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil also made sense.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5570015/site/newsweek/
[/derail]
I'm simply curious as to why so many Christians support Bush. My whole Christian family does and every fundamentalist Christian I know supports him. WHY?
I'll let you in on a sordid little secret: I voted for him in 2000. I wasn't terribly fond of him even then, but when evidence came to light of what he had been doing, I actually took the evidence into account and changed my mind. Yeah, I changed my mind. It's what people do if they're serious about looking at issues. I've changed my mind about big things more than once when shown good evidence.
Luckily, I changed my mind (and party affiliation) before the Iraq War or I'd feel even more guilty than I do now.
If sugarfree supports George W. Bush, I'd like to know why. What good has this man done? How can you simply look the other way when a lot of evidence has come to light that his war against Iraq is a war of choice, a war of aggression and an illegal war? Is it that you only watch Fox News so you have never heard of the Downing Street Minutes? the illegal wiretappings? the outing of a CIA agent? the illegal firings of prosecutors who didn't have the right politics?
Or do you really want a police state and a theocracy? I think that's what my family wants. *shiver*
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I consider George W. Bush and his supporters to be dangerous. Anyone who has not yet reached this conclusion is to be regarded with suspicion and perhaps pity. My family supports the Idiot Son of an Asshole who may yet get us all killed. I don't hate my family. I get exasperated with them, yes. I feel they are part of the problem, yes.
Do I hate George W. Bush?
I hate what he represents more than the person himself. He has become a symbol of all that is wrong with this country, so I suppose you could say I hate him. And what's more, I hated him before it was cool (even though I voted for him in 2000).
Do I hate religionists?
No. I hate religion. Much of the time I feel sorry for religionists because they are not the masters of their own minds. They are in a very real sense infected with a virus. I want to eradicate the virus, not the people who have the virus. And I only care to do this through discourse. I'm not at all a fan of legislating anyone's morality. If humankind cannot disregard religion of its own free will, then we'll all go down together.
I am not allowed to force you to change your mind, but I am within my rights to express opinions which may offend you. No one is allowed to get through life without being offended at one time or another. In fact, when I was losing my religion, I was very angry with the people who had showed me how Christianity had erred.
I've done nothing to attack you on a personal level. I have attacked your beliefs, yes. But do those beliefs equal who you are? If so, I am sorry for you. I have also attacked your dishonesty. Did I attack you as a person? Only if you are always this dishonest with yourself and others.
Am I angry?
Only with religion. I'm not angry with you.
If you are angry, I challenge you to decide where this anger comes from. Are you angry because your beliefs are not withstanding logic? Are you angry because you may have to let go of your god-belief and admit that you were hoodwinked and lied to?
I was angry when that happened to me. In some ways, I'm still pretty upset about it and don't want to see the same thing happen to others. I don't want you to be brainwashed. I don't want you to brainwash others, especially children. If the human race is to survive we had better get very rational very quickly.
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I'm not wanting you to impress me with knowledge.
I'm a computer programmer too, but that has nothing to do with it. You don't care? If we evolved, then the Bible has false statements. You don't care about that? These false statements are not just in Gensis chapter 1, but in places like Romans 5:12,14, 1 Timothy 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 15:22.
You don't need to be conduct a "deep scientific inquiry" to understand what scientist say. For instance, It's not hard to understand why the universe is much older than what the Bible claims the age to be.
Yes, it is that limited. Science deals with the natural world. God is supernatural.
Yes they are predictable. They are well known. So, why did you bring up the old tired (and debunked) arguments if you knew the answers? This is why I was doubting that you had searched things out.
Nothing about this administration shocks me anymore. For awhile, every new scandal made my mouth drop open. Now, if I hear the Bush admin did something particularly nasty, I had already considered the possibility at some point. Illegal wars, wire tapping, torture, transgression against the Constitution: it's all par for the course.
The sad thing is I don't think anyone is going to do a damn thing about it. A third of the country--"backwash Republicans" as Stephen Colbert would say--still support the bastard.
[breaking Godwin's law]
There are still people in Germany who support Hitler (that good, Christian man).
[/breaking Godwin's law]
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Hitler wasn't a Christian. He persecuted Christians along with everyone else. He was simply an evil man.
"The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
!!!Challenging Sugarfree!!!
The main theme of my life has been truthfulness (not truthiness
) and the search for truth. I try very hard to be truthful with myself and others. I don't always succeed, but I always strive. That is one of the reasons I finally "came out" as an atheist (and basically suffered the consequences ever since).
After reading the above, I came to the conclusion that sugarfree is not willing to admit being wrong about the biblical error in Isaiah and Matthew, let alone admit being wrong about Christianity.
Since Rook actually does know Greek, let me ask him a few questions about this little Isaiah/Matthew issue:
And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'".
sugarfree, here is a challenge for you.
If I am wrong on this point, I will gratefully admit it. I don't like to disseminate incorrect information. Sometimes my residual fundiness creeps in and makes me feel ashamed of being wrong, but most of the time I can admit my mistakes and learn from them.
If you are wrong, I challenge you to admit it. If you won't there is no sense in continuing a dialogue with you because you are lying to yourself, us or both. You cannot admit Christianity is wrong if you cannot admit this one small error in your argument. Remember, you are the one who brought up the prophecy in Isaiah. I challenged you based on what I've learned and you ignored me. You did not admit your mistake. Instead you insinuated I couldn't know what I was talking about because I don't speak ancient Greek.
Well, I know someone who does. Listen to what he says and take another look at my argument.
Deal?
I will ask Rook to look at this in a scholarly fashion. If you know an acknowledged biblical scholar that knows Greek or Hebrew and has analyzed ancient texts, feel free to contact him or her and direct that person to this post and thread.
(Note: I'm not talking about a preacher. I mean an actual scholar who has analyzed the oldest texts, the translated texts, the differences between various texts that inevitably crop up when copying and translating. I mean someone whose main interest is ancient texts and their translation.)
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Please, everyone. Let's NOT discuss Hitler or the Nazis!
I haven't had time to look intot he Isaiah and Matthew thing yet. I'm trying to respond as best I can to all these posts, but there's sleep, work, eating, and tonight my husband wants me to actually spend time with him...go figure. I'm reading the rest of your post now. Just couldn't resist posting this aside.
Plus, you didn't think I was going to be *that* easy to convince, did you?
[tangent]
Okay. Sorry 'bout breaking Godwin's Law. I'll go sulk in the corner for awhile.
You know, it seems Americans are not historically well-educated except when it comes to Hitler and how America kicked his ass. I find WWII and Hitler's rise to power very interesting, but I would like to know more about Stalin's rise to power, Pinochet's rise to power, Mussolini's rise to power, Pol Pot's rise to power. I know a little about Saddam's rise to power because the U.S. (Bush cronies) put him there.
So when it comes to an historical example, I find I'm hard-pressed to come up with anything that doesn't simply shatter Godwin's Law. It doesn't help that when I had the History Channel it played WWII crap all day long. I know People that call it the "Hitler Channel."
I try to read what I can of history, but still feel I know less than I should. I'm more interested in biology and zoology and the proper evolutionary education I was denied because I grew up fundy.
[/tangent]
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