Sugarfree, you mention anger and hatred. I think it's that some folks feel frustrated and that's how it comes out. And I'm sure many on this board are angry because of their experiences with religious people.

 BUT. And it's a big BUT. In my opinion and belief, if everyone on the planet, in one great moment of understanding, simply agreed that we were all entitled to our own beliefs (or unbeliefs) and stopped trying to convert everyone, the anger would go away. At least it would for most. Because I, for instance, really have no investment in what people believe. I feel that it's a personal choice, and that their choice or understanding may change over time, and that we each should be free to walk our own paths without being bashed about the head for it. That open conversation is healthy. That preaching isn't

The problem is that many religions feel it's their duty to bash everyone else over the head and try to convert them. It's a cult-like attitude that I find difficult to understand, and when taken to extremes, very offensive.

I believe that you (Sugarfree) mean well. I'm happy for you, that you've found answers that work for you. Just please remember that the answers others have found may be different, and that if people on here perceive that you're preaching to them, they'll react pretty strongly.

Peace.

There is much bitterness, anger, and hate on this board.

I think people don't realize that "atheism" is inherently a meaningless concept. We don't classify people based on whether they like toothbrushes or computers.

Atheism only exists because religion has such power. If theism fell tommorow, the term atheist would cease to exist.

If it were up to me, I could put my feet up on this issue. I live in Hong Kong, one of the most secular countries in the world, a place where there are almost no religious, and where religion does exist, it is diverse and tolerant, and coexistence between the spheres of society is not marred by religion. There is no creation science, no vile protests with signs saying God of {insert violent religion here} warrants the destruction of {insert left-wing cause or hated minority group here} because of {insert Bible verse here}. There is none of that. Education is completely secular. There is no controversy of creationist students because there are none. There is no religious violence, no dogmatism. Religion has very much been placed in what should be its sphere of society, namely fully outside the public sphere. Here, there are churches, mosques and temples peacefully side by side.

 So why not put up my feet? Because a) I enjoy debate, which RRS offers, and b) I am gravely considered about the situation in parts of the world. From the Middle East to Middle America. We are on the brink of a scientific revolution. From theoretical physics to molecular biology, ancient spiritual questions, ones that once could only be answered by the myth of religion, are being answered by science. Yet instead of embracing this revolution in the interest of peace and progress for all mankind, people from Alabama to Afghanistan are turning inwards and embracing fundamentalism. And don’t say it is a small minority because it really is not.

 There is anger, surely, but only because of the hypocrisy. We don't seek to actively convert. Have you ever seen an atheist holding up a sign saying there is no God and you have to stop worshipping? Have you ever seen an atheist stop and demand you renounce Christ in the street or leave the God Delusion under the windsheild?

Yet because religious are under the delusion that they are on the one true path, they are in a constant circular battle of conversion in an attempt to bring more people under their control. I look at religion and see a set of mutually exlcusive dogmas. Never a good thing. 

Leviticus 23:3 plainly states that the Sabbath is a day of rest.

Number 15:32 Leads into the stoning of a man who worked on the Sabbath in observance with the rules.

But then...

Matthew 12:1 Jesus is working on the Sabbath, breaking the rules of the OT.

So he didn't live a life according to the law of the OT.

-Triften

So perhaps my phrasing was wrong and I should have said he lived a sinless life.  What you are arguing here is similar to what the pharisees said to Jesus to try to get him to trip up.  He was against all the laws they had put into place that kept people occupied, however, kept them from knowing God.

It's not about control, it's about freedom. Secularism is doing much damage to our society, from divorce to middle school kids having sex. They have no moral compass, and thus many of them are lost, trying to make up their own rules. The kids are suffering the most.

I do not understand your proposition. Furthermore, I am not American so that will not work on me. For years I have lived in the worlds most secular societies: Japan, China, Norway and Canada. These places have vastly better education, crime rates, health and life quality than the United States. Your American-centric veiw is meaningless to me.

I've never seen a vile protest of Christians over here except perhaps a few times on television, by groups on the extreme right fringes, who the rest of us Christians view as off balance anyway. And so what if someone stops me on the street to share their views with me. It's a free country. For now. If I meet you on the street someday, feel free to tell me to renounce God, but please do it kindly and without cursing. Then I will be more apt to listen to you.

When did I ever curse you? You still dont get it, do you? I dont care if people hold religious belief. I dont prosetlyize. I dont want to walk up yo you on the street and tell you not to believe in God. You know why? Because it is a free society. People can believe what they wish BUT! When religion operates under the delusion that deep down we are not free to believe in anything except what they believe because they think they are the only correct ones, then the problem becomes grave, especially when three billion people belong to the world's two evangelizing struggles for global hegemony: Christianity and Islam.

I've never seen a vile protest of Christians over here except perhaps a few times on television, by groups on the extreme right fringes, who the rest of us Christians view as off balance anyway.

This mentality of "small minority" must end. There are 55 million Evangelicals. They are extremely dangerous and weild tremendous political power. The far right of Christianity can bend the American political scene to it's will. 

I appreciate the sentiment but I don't eat refined white sugars.  Fruits only, in moderation.  I've learned that sugar is bad for my mental health, which is pretty ironic, given your offer...

It's this simple, deludedgod. Christians do NOT WANT state sponsored Christianity. They just do not want God to be stripped out of the public arena. The more you all try to strip the word God out of everything, the more Christians will fight. But we are not fighting for state sponsored religion. That is a complete fallicy.

So, if it feels good, do it?

There are many things wrong with this argument and I think you're intelligent enough to know it, but I'll point a few out for you anyway:

1) There are many, many atheists that live fulfilling lives, including me. Just because I have difficulties doesn't mean I'm willing to throw my life away. Nor am I willing to sacrifice the truth, hurting the world just so I can live in a fantasy. Doing otherwise would be cowardly and selfish.

2) Religion was, if not the cause, a major cause of the difficulties I experience. Getting rid of religion also caused a lot of problems in the same way giving up alcoholism will cause problems. There are painful withdrawal symptoms and you often find you can no longer hang out with your alcoholic buddies. Because I've seen the absurdity of the Christian religion, I couldn't go back even if I wanted to. And, what's more, I wouldn't want to. I do better swimming without the anvil. It was dragging me down. Eventually it would have killed me.

Being raised fundamentalist is abusive. It's a wonder anyone manages to live through it. It's a tribute to the human spirit.

Comparing my life with some old person who wasn't raised as I was, who doesn't have the same brain chemistry, who doesn't have the same personality, etc. is ridiculous in the extreme. Ignorance can be bliss, but it can also be harmful. In my case it was harmful.

I like who I am now, but because of my background / brain chemistry, I will always struggle (unless a cure is found). It's a relief to be able to think what I want to think and be who I really am without kowtowing to some nasty, whiny fairy in the sky. What a relief!

Absolutely. 

Before Islam had its fundamentalist crisis, Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world.  Algebra is an Arabic word.  Ever hear of "Arabic numerals"? Ptolemy? 2/3rds of the stars have Arabic names.

Then what happened? Fundamentalist religion happened. An Islamic cleric, Imam Hamid al-Ghazali, decided math was the work of the devil.  The Arabic world never recovered.

And you still can't Torquemada anything.  

I believe the secularism in Europe started after WWII, and happened in part because Europe took Roosevelt's socialist ideas and ran with them, but here in America we have put up more of a fight against them.

Indeed, I have a dislike of Europe's left-wing attitude towards Islam. Nonetheless, I have travelled extensively in Europe and have found it a spiritual home.

You don't think you benefit from America's economy? "Made in Hong Kong"? America supports free societies because we would like to remain free also.

I was actually referring to social ideas not economic policy. Furthermore, I have seen with my own eyes the rise of China, and I am convinced that within 15 years America will be completely overshadowed by this giant. Interestingly enough, China in and of itself defeats the notion that religious morality is necessary. For 7,000 years they had a Confucian system of nontheist morality that served them perfectly. This society, which for so long has ruled the world, makes the idea of religion as a necessary force seem utterly ridiculous.

Good. Then help me out, deludedgod, because I do not want to wear a burka. By being so against Christians, you are helping to strengthen their morale.

If I could choose to wipe one religion off the face of the map, it would be Islam. Furthermore, I do not dislike Christians, many friends I have are Christian. But there is one issue I have not shared with you. I feel very strongly about the rise of literal Christianity again. I am referring to Creationism now. How few accept evolution in America? 

As a scientist, I feel extreme problems about the astonishing spread of misinformation, all of it Christian. If you can fix this, I will never breathe another word about my general dislike of the religion.

 But I concede. I despise Islam.

 They are trying to divide the world into two camps, yours and mine, and they are waiting for us to destroy each other.

 That is a little pessimistic. It is they seem to enjoy killing each other. I hope perhaps that they will just blow each other up and leave us alone. As Kissinger said of the Iraq-Iran war "a pity they can't both lose". I have studied Islamic fundamentalism and I have never heard the theory that they are attempting to split our society. They see Christians and atheists as one block of evil.

 This is part of the propaganda war. And our enemy is winning.

I doubt it. When the oil dries up, Arabia will collapse.

 but I feel you are strongly against me for being a Christian.

 What? Please find a quote that supports that. Argue with does not equal dislike.

 Where does secularism get its morality from? 10 commandments, other religions? How would a secular society exist if it was not founded on religious morality.

That is a revisionist approach. Secularism is founded on religious society (at least in the West, I trust my example of China straightened this myth out for you) but after that it is an unnecessary force. For instance, science used to be an arm of theology. But science only progressed when it tore free of that institution. Should scientists have to study theology then?

 Religion started out as man's way to govern himself, so you are a product of it's legacy

that does not mean it is still necessary

 Me + Burka = Bad.

You are merely rephrasing my formula 

Religion - secular influence = dogmatism = theocracy = bad

You've been misled.  If anything, Christianity contributes to these problems.  As deludedgod pointed out, the more secular Western nations are much better off than we are.  What's more, divorce rates are LOWER among atheists than they are among Christians: http://dark-sided.blogspot.com/2006/10/divorce-rates-highest-for-christians.html

Another interesting tidbit your church won't tell you: we've postulated that Christians commit more crimes than atheists:

"Unfortunately, this is not the case. When one looks at prison incarceration, one sees Christians most represented, and atheists UNDERPERPRESENTED per capita (USA population has roughly 13% atheists, and yet prison population is 0.209% atheist: see http://holysmoke.org/prison.htm). Out of 74,731 prisoners, 156 are atheists; 62,594 are Christian; 5,435 are Muslim; 1,325 are Jewish. Given a conservative 10% of USA population being atheists, one would expect 7,473 atheists in prison: the data suggests that atheists commit fewer crimes than theists."

The above is from http://www.holysmoke.org/hs02/unfit.htm 

Societies with higher percentages of religious adherents have higher rates of homicide, teenage pregnancy and abortion and STD infection. There is not a positive correlation between belief in god and 'moral behavior' if anything there is a negative correlation. Check out this study published in the Journal of Religion and Society.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

I used to be religious. I wasn't raised to be though. My parents wanted me to make my own choices. I haven't been baptised. When I was 9 they took me to church just to give me the opportunity to see what it was like and I did, admittedly fall for it. The vicar there, really nice guy is actually fairly agnostic, in fact he doesn't really believe it. When I was 14 I started to think, realised Buddhism was pretty cool but by that stage I really wasn't bothered about commiting to irrational beliefs besides vegetarianism (which I adopted aged 5 - I'm still one by habit only at 20).

My advice to sugarfree is to reread the bible (if you have actually read it) see what a bastard God actually is in it, then read the works of atheists, not just think about the fact that we have no belief in God, but actually consider our reasons not to- the problem of evil, logical problems in the theory of God, anthropological/psychological reasons why humans actually tend to believe in God, why you believe in God, and even if you believe accept God why does that make the bible true? Question the very basis of your faith down to the validity of the bible or what your parents may have told you. If you do this well it's very likely you'll become an atheist or agnostic. It's not up to us to convince you but to advise you how to enlighten yourself. I'm sure most people here are against the idea of indoctrination so we'll leave it up to you.

There are ugly things in American history.  But are we going to keep beating ourselves over the head because of it, or learn from it and move forward?  There are also many good things about American history.  No country has a 100% spotless record, including atheist country's.  Look at China. 

So it's not a sin to work on the Sabbath and steal?

-Triften 

All you have to do is ask... 

Awww, I was hoping you'd respond to her with a poem. That would be a really new way to discuss religion.

Just ask him you say

but I'll not, come what may

'cuz the whole thing makes

no sense, regardless of day.

You have not looked at all the alternatives. Even if you have looked at a lot of them, that doesn't automatically make your religion right.

I'll suppose hypothetically for a minute that Christianity really has rationally and scientifically stood up to scrutiny.

There are plenty of things that you can't prove false. You can't prove that we're not all living inside a computer simulation (the matrix). That doesn't mean we are living inside a computer simulation.

Anyway, as far as scrutiny goes: Have you ever really studied the bible carefully?
do you know how many faults and contradictions there are in it?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
And that's was just the first hit on Google.

You said it in 3 words. Thank you.  

Hello all. Thank you for joining me on this thread. I have learned from this discussion, and hopefully you have too. Now I am ready to let this thread die a peaceful death. (I can see your comments now..."yeah right, learn something from you?", "she can't handle it", "she dodged the questions", etc. There, I said 'em so you don't have too. Truthfully, this baby is taking too much time to keep alive, I don't want to trade my sugar addiction for an internet addiction.)

See you occasionally on other threads.

Good bye for now.

sugarfree

Amen.

I don't think anything we as atheists say about theism is as powerful a testimony against it as the willfull ignorance of it's followers.