I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.

sugarfree
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I'm a Christian. Convince me to become an athiest.

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Or maybe she's busy and has

Or maybe she's busy

and has no more time,

for the truth as we know it

is hard but sublime.

 

Ok, ok, I'll stop with the silly rhymes now, since no one's joining the game. LOL

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life


sugarfree
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zarathustra wrote: So what

zarathustra wrote:

So what have we learned, class?

The best way to keep your faith is not to listen.

Okay, would you stop egging me on so I can just let this thread die? I knew I shouldn't have checked back. Now I feel compelled to say this:

I feel you are doing the exact same thing you claim Christians do. That is, you are being close-minded to all religions, in this case Christianity. Many of you on this site (seemingly most) display an intolerant, belittling attitude towards it. This belittling "holier than thou" attitude is exactly what you are claiming to dislike about Christians. Since you seem to favor logic, I will ask you what you have asked me, is that logical?

How is your intolerance towards religion any different than being intolerant to homosexuality, or to a specific race?

I have the answer: It is no different.

The problem is not religion, it's human nature.


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Some differences: Race and

Some differences: Race and Sexual orientation are not chosen.

Neither involves an irrational belief.

By being a different race or being gay, a person isn't doing me harm the way Christians are: Puting their beliefs in the pledge and on money, discrimination against women/gays/atheists, anti-porn and other blue laws, the anti-choice movement, the Christian war on science, etc.

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rexlunae
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sugarfree wrote:Okay,

sugarfree wrote:
Okay, would you stop egging me on so I can just let this thread die?

Nope. Feel free not to respond.

sugarfree wrote:
I feel you are doing the exact same thing you claim Christians do. That is, you are being close-minded to all religions, in this case Christianity.

My main complaint against Christianity isn't that it's intolerant, it's that it's wrong. The subsequent intolerance is bad, but I'd probably be willing to forgive it if it were right.

sugarfree wrote:
Many of you on this site (seemingly most) display an intolerant, belittling attitude towards it.

We respond appropriately to whom we encounter, or at least we try. The notion that we should restrict ourselves from using logic to counter your arguments is stupid and unreasonable. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the fact. If you can't reason through this stuff you have no business challenging your religion or anyone else's. If you don't want to find uncomfortable truths, don't look for them.

sugarfree wrote:
This belittling "holier than thou" attitude is exactly what you are claiming to dislike about Christians. Since you seem to favor logic, I will ask you what you have asked me, is that logical?

No one here is taking a holier then thou attitude, you just don't want to discuss this on reasonable terms, so we are frustrated with you.

sugarfree wrote:
How is your intolerance towards religion any different than being intolerant to homosexuality, or to a specific race?

I have the answer: It is no different.

I have a better answer: Religion is a choice.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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sugarfree wrote: kmisho

sugarfree wrote:
kmisho wrote:
The point of going to church is to collect everybody's money. For churchgoers, the point is to spread and collect nasty gossip about your friends.
I'm guessing you have had a bad experience with a church, or multiple churches. So far I am lucky and have not had to deal with that kind of nastiness in my church.
kmisho wrote:
Then you either do not know what PREdetermined means or you are irrational..
I notice under your name it says you are a poet? So you understand paradox. Actually, I took a lot of humanities classes and literature classes in college. Also, comparative mythology... All of which actually, I think, led to my ability to see some of the underlying truths of the Bible.

Now I've had a 'bad experience' with the church. Sigh... I just got done lambasting someone else for dehumanizing me in the same way. No, you say, I could not possibly have good reasons to say what I say. It's just my emotional instability due to 'bad experiences' in church. Go away and think about how your religion steals your empathy.

Poetry is good as a communicator of emotions about indistinct elements of the human condition. If you will agree with me that religion, all religion, is simply current mythology, that it is simply of metaphor as revealed by poetry, that it is no better or worse than learning a lesson from any fable such as Aesop's fables then there's nothing left to argue about. This is precisely what I think religion is and accounts for what good there is in it.


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zarathustra wrote: So what

zarathustra wrote:

So what have we learned, class?

The best way to keep your faith is not to listen.

...or...

 

"It is impossible to reason someone out of something that he did not reason himself into in the first place." — Jonathan Swift


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MattShizzle wrote: Some

MattShizzle wrote:

Some differences: Race and Sexual orientation are not chosen.

Neither involves an irrational belief.

By being a different race or being gay, a person isn't doing me harm the way Christians are: Puting their beliefs in the pledge and on money, discrimination against women/gays/atheists, anti-porn and other blue laws, the anti-choice movement, the Christian war on science, etc.

These are your opinions. There are other people in the world that have different opinions that you. I'm just saying, I thought we were supposed to be "tolerant" and allow people...everyone...to express their opinions openly.


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kmisho wrote: sugarfree

kmisho wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
kmisho wrote:
The point of going to church is to collect everybody's money. For churchgoers, the point is to spread and collect nasty gossip about your friends.
I'm guessing you have had a bad experience with a church, or multiple churches. So far I am lucky and have not had to deal with that kind of nastiness in my church.
kmisho wrote:
Then you either do not know what PREdetermined means or you are irrational..
I notice under your name it says you are a poet? So you understand paradox. Actually, I took a lot of humanities classes and literature classes in college. Also, comparative mythology... All of which actually, I think, led to my ability to see some of the underlying truths of the Bible.

Now I've had a 'bad experience' with the church. Sigh... I just got done lambasting someone else for dehumanizing me in the same way. No, you say, I could not possibly have good reasons to say what I say. It's just my emotional instability due to 'bad experiences' in church. Go away and think about how your religion steals your empathy.

Poetry is good as a communicator of emotions about indistinct elements of the human condition. If you will agree with me that religion, all religion, is simply current mythology, that it is simply of metaphor as revealed by poetry, that it is no better or worse than learning a lesson from any fable such as Aesop's fables then there's nothing left to argue about. This is precisely what I think religion is and accounts for what good there is in it.

I'm sorry I have not been a better example for you, and I mean that sincerely.


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sugarfree wrote: These are

sugarfree wrote:
These are your opinions. There are other people in the world that have different opinions that you. I'm just saying, I thought we were supposed to be "tolerant" and allow people...everyone...to express their opinions openly.

Tolerance does not mean we can't disagree, and it doesn't even mean we have to respect their opinions. There are a lot of stupid opinions out there, and I don't think we should feel badly for calling them such, when the situation warrents it. But, you're free to have your opinion.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: No one

rexlunae wrote:

No one here is taking a holier then thou attitude, you just don't want to discuss this on reasonable terms

This is your opinion. I was just hoping we could all express our viewpoints in an atmosphere free of judgement and condemnation. That, apparently, is not how it works on this site.


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rexlunae wrote: There are

rexlunae wrote:
There are a lot of stupid opinions out there, and I don't think we should feel badly for calling them such, when the situation warrents it. But, you're free to have your opinion.

Feel free to call my opinions stupid, that's not the part I mind. Just don't strip me of my right to worship God the way I want. You go on not believing, I'll go on believing, and we can both be happy...

(Not saying you personally wish to strip my right, but the overall mood of this site gives me the impression that you, as a whole, would do that, all the while telling me you are doing the "right" thing.)


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sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:

No one here is taking a holier then thou attitude, you just don't want to discuss this on reasonable terms

This is your opinion. I was just hoping we could all express our viewpoints in an atmosphere free of judgement and condemnation. That, apparently, is not how it works on this site.

Judging is part of how we make decisions. For instance, you've seen our posts and judged us intolerant, unfairly I think. I'm not interested in judging you as a person, or on any other personal grounds, but I will not hesitate to judge the opinions you express. I try to judge them fairly, although fairness is sometimes somewhat subjective.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


rexlunae
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sugarfree wrote: Feel free

sugarfree wrote:
Feel free to call my opinions stupid, that's not the part I mind. Just don't strip me of my right to worship God the way I want. You go on not believing, I'll go on believing, and we can both be happy...

A lot of atheists support religious freedom very strongly, especially since we've been subject as a group to some of the strongest intolerance of anyone.

I won't stop you from pasting feathers to your head and trying to fly, if the spirit moves you. But I might caution you that it's a bad idea, if you give me the opportunity.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: Judging is

rexlunae wrote:

Judging is part of how we make decisions. For instance, you've seen our posts and judged us intolerant, unfairly I think. I'm not interested in judging you as a person, or on any other personal grounds, but I will not hesitate to judge the opinions you express. I try to judge them fairly, although fairness is sometimes somewhat subjective.

I am very open to the possibility that I, at times, have misread your intents. I do not wish to judge you all, but I do wish to point out what I see as hypocritical on your guys' parts, because I know you are all adamently against hypocrisy.

And, I do not mind you judging my opinions, however, word choice really makes a difference. I disagree with you on the whole God thing, but I have not called your ideas stupid, have not used foul language, and the like. Because, I believe, you are a person, no different than me, on your own journey. Though this means nothing to you, I see you as my equal in the eyes of God, therefore, I have no right to judge you. If I have come across as judgemental in any of my posts, I apologize.


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sugarfree wrote: Feel

sugarfree wrote:
Feel free to call my opinions stupid, that's not the part I mind. Just don't strip me of my right to worship God the way I want. You go on not believing, I'll go on believing, and we can both be happy... (Not saying you personally wish to strip my right, but the overall mood of this site gives me the impression that you, as a whole, would do that, all the while telling me you are doing the "right" thing.)

Uh, perhaps you forgot who laid down the initial challenge?

Quote:

Convince me to become an atheist.

Reminds me of the old saying: "If you think you won't like the answer, don't ask the question."


zarathustra
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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Okay, would you stop egging me on so I can just let this thread die?

Um...no, I won't. You began this thread by saying you were listening, and declaring your willingness to admit you're wrong if presented with a reasonable argument. You have proceeded to dodge and ignore questions I and others have raised. You responded at first with some attempts at rebuttal, and those were shown to be inadequate. As your arguments foundered, you retreated into your shell of faith rather than confront the challenges to your faith, and finally bid an inconclusive adieu. You should either take up the challenge again and formulate meaningful arguments, or retract your previous statements about listening and being willing to admit error. Otherwise, the egging will continue.

sugarfree wrote:
I knew I shouldn't have checked back. Now I feel compelled to say this: I feel you are doing the exact same thing you claim Christians do. That is, you are being close-minded to all religions, in this case Christianity.

I am not. This is another in your line of accusations, beginning with the one that I am angry. How am I being close-minded? When I say that there is no historical evidence for jesus, I am not being close-minded, I am simply stating a fact; there isn't. If anyone would come forth with historical evidence of the biblical jesus, I would certainly review the case with an open mind. As of yet, that has not happened. I made this point to you in our initial exchange, and you quickly came back with the same set of sources (Tacitus, Josephus, etc.) that have been made dozens of times before -- and which dozens of times before have been shown to be inadequate. There is nothing close-minded on my part in rejecting that which is not evidence to begin with.

Separately: Deludegod and I (if not others as well) have pointed out (multiple times) that your argument for christianity was special pleading. If you have in fact been "listening", you should know what that is by now, but just to remind you: It was special pleading when you used christanity's rapid spread to claim that it was true, but would not apply that same logic to other rapidly spreading religions. Rather than provide a well-premised argument for why christianity's rapid spread was somehow more truthful than other religions', rather than answer to the claim of special pleading, you simply responded "false prophecies", and disappeared. How would you conclude that I was close-minded here? How are you not close-minded with the terse dismissal "false prophecies"?

As another example of your special pleading: You mentioned the 2,000 year duration of the jesus story as support for its truth. I pointed out to you the 5,000 year duration of the Krishna story, as well as the 1,400 year duration of the Mohammed story. You conceded the point about krishna, but failed to explain why you're sticking with jesus (if you think the longevity of the story is a big deal to you, shouldn't you cast your lot with the older one?). How are you not close-minded to not give krishna and mohammed further consideration?

sugarfree wrote:
Many of you on this site (seemingly most) display an intolerant, belittling attitude towards it. This belittling "holier than thou" attitude is exactly what you are claiming to dislike about Christians.

I do not deny my belittling attitude towards religion. I simply ask you: Why should we have respect for beliefs for which there is no proof? If someone told you that Elvis just came back to life after 3 days and I needed to believe this to go to heaven, would that not seem ridiculous? Would you feel obliged to "tolerate" such a belief? Why is it somehow not ridiculous if we replace "Elvis" with "jesus"? At least in the case of Elvis, we have proof that he was a real person.

As far as the "holier than thou" attitude, this is absolute hypocrisy on your part. Your haughty remarks about Islam, Mormonism and Scientology ("..Don't get me started...!&quotEye-wink are clear indication of who has the "holier than thou" attitude.

sugarfree wrote:

Since you seem to favor logic, I will ask you what you have asked me, is that logical? How is your intolerance towards religion any different than being intolerant to homosexuality, or to a specific race? I have the answer: It is no different. The problem is not religion, it's human nature.

You do not have the answer: It is different. People have no control over the race they are born into. They cannot switch their race later in life after an emotional experience, or by giving up white sugar. I am yet to hear of someone attributing their homosexuality to an outdated, innaccurate book. If you favored logic, this false comparison would be quite clear to you.

Enjoy

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


rexlunae
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sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:

Judging is part of how we make decisions. For instance, you've seen our posts and judged us intolerant, unfairly I think. I'm not interested in judging you as a person, or on any other personal grounds, but I will not hesitate to judge the opinions you express. I try to judge them fairly, although fairness is sometimes somewhat subjective.

I am very open to the possibility that I, at times, have misread your intents. I do not wish to judge you all, but I do wish to point out what I see as hypocritical on your guys' parts, because I know you are all adamently against hypocrisy.

My point, which I think we've agreed upon now, is that everyone makes these kinds of decisions (judgments) about the opinions of others. No one that I have seen has called you stupid, personally, but we have called the willing ignorance that you are using stupid. I hope that's clear.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


triften
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sugarfree wrote: Feel

sugarfree wrote:
Feel free to call my opinions stupid, that's not the part I mind. Just don't strip me of my right to worship God the way I want. You go on not believing, I'll go on believing, and we can both be happy... (Not saying you personally wish to strip my right, but the overall mood of this site gives me the impression that you, as a whole, would do that, all the while telling me you are doing the "right" thing.)

Just my 2 more cents: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (Voltaire)

There is a great difference between challenging a belief with questions and using force to try and extinguish it.

On the other hand, if someone you knew believed that their car could fly and they had no evidence, only faith, that it actually could, would you be afraid of them driving off a cliff one day? What would you do to stop them?

-Triften


sugarfree
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rexlunae wrote: No one that

rexlunae wrote:
No one that I have seen has called you stupid, personally, but we have called the willing ignorance that you are using stupid. I hope that's clear.
Okay, if you truly don't see this wording as a bit rude, in all seriousness, I believe you.  Me, personally, I think you could say the same thing in a nicer way.  But, regardless, I hear what you are saying.


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sugarfree

sugarfree wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:

Some differences: Race and Sexual orientation are not chosen.

Neither involves an irrational belief.

By being a different race or being gay, a person isn't doing me harm the way Christians are: Puting their beliefs in the pledge and on money, discrimination against women/gays/atheists, anti-porn and other blue laws, the anti-choice movement, the Christian war on science, etc.

These are your opinions. There are other people in the world that have different opinions that you. I'm just saying, I thought we were supposed to be "tolerant" and allow people...everyone...to express their opinions openly.

Well, they're opinions supported by evidence gathered by, y'know, looking. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not all opinions are supported by anything. Some are plainly prejudices and idiocy. The Flat Earth Society doesn't have a presence in the classroom, for instance, but maybe they should, hmm?


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wrong forum

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
No one here is taking a holier then thou attitude, you just don't want to discuss this on reasonable terms
This is your opinion. I was just hoping we could all express our viewpoints in an atmosphere free of judgement and condemnation. That, apparently, is not how it works on this site.

 Actually, this subforum is called "Freethinkers Anonymous" and is an "everything goes" part of the site. If you want a place that is kinder and gentler and free of judgement, you should post the same questions in the "Kill Them With Kindness" subforum. That area has strict rules about how discussions can be made. This FA area is specifically set up for open, honest, sometimes strong-felt argument and discussion. At least that's my understanding of the guidelines for Rational Responders. Wink

And since you're feeling picked on, which is certainly not MY intention, here's a virtual hug for you! ((()))

There's a reason some people say that three things shouldn't be discussed in "polite" society: religion, sex, money. Because they're full of very strong emotions and opinions.

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life


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Technically if you're not a

Technically if you're not a freethinker you aren't even supposed to be posting in this forum.

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MattShizzle

MattShizzle wrote:
Technically if you're not a freethinker you aren't even supposed to be posting in this forum.

That's true. This whole thread should have gone under Atheist vs. Theist, or Killing them with Kindness. FA is only for atheists.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
No one that I have seen has called you stupid, personally, but we have called the willing ignorance that you are using stupid. I hope that's clear.
Okay, if you truly don't see this wording as a bit rude, in all seriousness, I believe you.  Me, personally, I think you could say the same thing in a nicer way.  But, regardless, I hear what you are saying.

I didn't say it was polite, it's just honest. I don't sugar-coat this stuff, but I haven't attacked you personally, and I don't think anyone here has either.

I know it can be hard, from a Christian perspective, to even entertain rational doubts, let alone give them serious consideration. I've been there. But I don't think softening the language of discourse to avoid uncomfortable truths is helpful. I also assume that most of the people who show up on these forums have fairly think skins, and can handle the truth, because it doesn't make sense to me for a theist whose feelings are easily hurt to enter a forum for atheists and challenge them. No one is trying to make you feel badly, but at the same time, it is necessary to point out that if you can't use logic to address the question of god's existence, you are actively, intentionally ignoring reality, in which case you may as well not bother.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: But I

rexlunae wrote:
But I don't think softening the language of discourse to avoid uncomfortable truths is helpful. I also assume that most of the people who show up on these forums have fairly think skins, and can handle the truth, because it doesn't make sense to me for a theist whose feelings are easily hurt to enter a forum for atheists and challenge them. No one is trying to make you feel badly, but at the same time, it is necessary to point out that if you can't use logic to address the question of god's existence, you are actively, intentionally ignoring reality, in which case you may as well not bother.

I'm not sitting here saying boo hoo, I'm just saying, guys, do you realize how you sound?  You're never going to win people to your side of the argument this way.  If that's what you have been trying to do, I'm telling ya, it ain't gonna work.  On the other hand, if you are simply annoyed with my presence here and want me to go away, your tone is actually quite appropriate for that.  However, I do have a pretty thick skin, and I'm quite opinionated, which is why, everytime one of you says something that fires me up, I can't stop myself from posting a response.


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I'm not sitting here saying

I'm not sitting here saying boo hoo, I'm just saying, guys, do you realize how you sound?

I think most of them acquitted themselves well. I didn't, but I've had it with magical thinkers and their disproportionate influence on the world.

You're never going to win people to your side of the argument this way.  If that's what you have been trying to do, I'm telling ya, it ain't gonna work.  On the other hand, if you are simply annoyed with my presence here and want me to go away, your tone is actually quite appropriate for that.

There really isn't a side. There's no dogma regarding atheism, it's just a conclusion that a lot of people, from varying backgrounds, eventually come to. With a mind open to observation, religion just finds its proper context. Once you realize how a few things work, you get bored trying to rationalize a view that's been superimposed on the subjective experience by traditions forged out of fearful ignorance.


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sugarfree wrote: I'm not

sugarfree wrote:
I'm not sitting here saying boo hoo, I'm just saying, guys, do you realize how you sound?  You're never going to win people to your side of the argument this way.

Maybe not, and to a certain extent I say 'their loss'. It's only worth discussing religion with people who are looking for the truth. If you can't handle a logical argument, you can't handle the truth.

I'd love to see the whole world freed of the guilt and fear that religions impose on people, but in all reality, too many people have bought the lie of eternal life too thoroughly. That's a hard thing for them to give up. Some never will, and others will take years. It took me years. I'm willing to try to help those who are willing, if I can, but I'm not going to try to force those who are not.

The discussion in this thread started out rationally enough, some arguments on both sides, and then you started complaining about the use of logic as an argument. You put up a wall of faith that none of us could hope of penetrating. That's a clear sign that you're not ready to really challenge your faith. Maybe that will change some day, but for now I don't think there's anything to discuss as long as you are unwilling use the proper tools of discussion.

Let me leave you with this thought. You've said that you suffer from depression, in other words you have certain feelings that are probably disproportionately negative. So, you know better than most that you can't always trust your feelings. They are subject to all sorts of influences that are not reflective of reality.

In that case, it seems that feelings are an entirely inappropriate element in discussing religion. As a Christian, you are probably afraid that if you doubt god, you will have sinned, and the whole concept of an afterlife is very reassuring. But at the same time, you also can't know how liberating it is to realize that there is no divine judge who might condemn you for thought crimes (and yes, your beliefs are thoughts). You have to decide first what is real, and then decide how to be comfortable with that, otherwise you will truly be living in a delusion.

Good luck.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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zarathustra wrote: You

zarathustra wrote:
You began this thread by saying you were listening, and declaring your willingness to admit you're wrong if presented with a reasonable argument.
I'm still waiting for the argument that's going to convince me.
zarathustra wrote:
You have proceeded to dodge and ignore questions I and others have raised.
Of the questions I have "dodged", which were you most expecting a response to? I know I missed some, but I don't want to sit at my computer 24/7, so I gotta set limits.

zarathustra wrote:
You responded at first with some attempts at rebuttal, and those were shown to be inadequate.
That could be because of my pea-sized brain.

zarathustra wrote:
How am I being close-minded?
Okay, so you don't believe in God. But what about the afterlife. What if...well, do you think this "reality" is the only dimension? What if this universe consisted of many dimensions and "heaven" was one of those. What if...in one of those dimensions, was a really smart alien being...? Do you believe in aliens? What if, that alien was so smart, he created our universe? That would be weird. Then we'd all be wrong! What if...hmmm....what if... Okay, our bodies have their own electrical systems...we constantly have electricity flowing thru us, right? What if each emotions had it's own wavelength...and so, depending on what we thought, our energy vibrated at higher or lower intensity? What if, when we die, we slip into a different dimension based on the properties of our "electrical being"? These wavelengths, these properties, this would be science, right? They could be measured. Soooo, do you ever think like this? I let my mind go like this sometimes. Does that mean I'm crazy, imaginative, or open-minded? Do I think God will strike me down for speculating like this? Nah...

zarathustra wrote:
When I say that there is no historical evidence for jesus, I am not being close-minded, I am simply stating a fact.
Okay, what I'm reading in this is that you think the Bible is a worthless piece of crap, like nothing worthwhile can ever come out of it. That, is what I perceive your bias is. Please tell me if I'm wrong. Let me know if you have one inkling of respect for it, then I'll take back my last comment. But to counter your argument: The Bible is not 1 book, it is 66 books. There are 4 books written specifically about Jesus, recording his life. They were written by different authors, presumably in 4 different locations. So--given what I just said, we have f-o-u-r historical biographies of Jesus' life. The fact that they are completely the same and have some inconsistancies--while it bothers you profusely--actually further proves that they were written by different people, in different places. That's f-o-u-r historical accounts of the life of Jesus. There are also the gnostic gospels. The Gospel of Thomas, etc. Soooooooo..... There you have it. The argument you have provided in an attempt to disprove Jesus' existence is not a strong one, in my opinion.

zarathustra wrote:
Separately: Deludegod and I (if not others as well) have pointed out (multiple times) that your argument for christianity was special pleading. If you have in fact been "listening", you should know what that is by now, but just to remind you: It was special pleading
Okay, to be perfectly honest regarding special pleading...I don't particularly care so much about what it means. I mean, I asked what it meant at first, didn't get a real clear answer, so I gave up on it.

zarathustra wrote:
When you used christanity's rapid spread to claim that it was true, but would not apply that same logic to other rapidly spreading religions. Rather than provide a well-premised argument for why christianity's rapid spread was somehow more truthful than other religions', rather than answer to the claim of special pleading, you simply responded "false prophecies", and disappeared. How would you conclude that I was close-minded here? How are you not close-minded with the terse dismissal "false prophecies"?
Because if I say what I WANT to say, your going to say...that's dumb because of this this and this, so what's the point...I'm never going to get you to agree with me.

zarathustra wrote:
As another example of your special pleading: You mentioned the 2,000 year duration of the jesus story as support for its truth. I pointed out to you the 5,000 year duration of the Krishna story,
And exactly HOW MANY hare krishna's have I EVER met in my life?? Hmmm....let's see. Well, there were those bald guys in orange robes I saw when I was in Washington D.C. one time..... Something tells me the Krishna message isn't as relavant to people's current lives as Jesus's message is.


zarathustra wrote:
You conceded the point about krishna, but failed to explain why you're sticking with jesus (if you think the longevity of the story is a big deal to you, shouldn't you cast your lot with the older one?). How are you not close-minded to not give krishna and mohammed further consideration?
Because Jesus's messages are AWESOME! Have you read them? I love reading his words. I flip thru the gospels and just read the red sentences. I L-O-V-E Jesus. He was (is) AMAZING!!!! He is my rock, my deliverer, my comfort, I am his beautiful bride. Religion be DAMNED! Just give me JESUS!!!!!!!!! (Is that enough?)

sugarfree wrote:
Many of you on this site (seemingly most) display an intolerant, belittling attitude towards it. This belittling "holier than thou" attitude is exactly what you are claiming to dislike about Christians.


zarathustra wrote:
I do not deny my belittling attitude towards religion. I simply ask you: Why should we have respect for beliefs for which there is no proof? If someone told you that Elvis just came back to life after 3 days and I needed to believe this to go to heaven, would that not seem ridiculous? Would you feel obliged to "tolerate" such a belief? Why is it somehow not ridiculous if we replace "Elvis" with "jesus"? At least in the case of Elvis, we have proof that he was a real person.
Well, there is no authoritative book of Elvis's death and resurrection, so I'll stick with Jesus.

zarathustra wrote:

As far as the "holier than thou" attitude, this is absolute hypocrisy on your part. Your haughty remarks about Islam, Mormonism and Scientology ("..Don't get me started...!&quotEye-wink are clear indication of who has the "holier than thou" attitude.
My bad.

zarathustra wrote:

Enjoy

I did, actually. Thanks!


sugarfree
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magilum wrote: There really

magilum wrote:
There really isn't a side. There's no dogma regarding atheism, it's just a conclusion that a lot of people, from varying backgrounds, eventually come to. With a mind open to observation, religion just finds its proper context. Once you realize how a few things work, you get bored trying to rationalize a view that's been superimposed on the subjective experience by traditions forged out of fearful ignorance.

I know, you guys are just smarter than the vast majority of people in all of human history who have believed and do believe that there is a God. The rest of us, well, we're just crazy. It's amazing we even EVOLVED. BTW: I'm done being nice. You guys have at least converted me to sarcasm. OH NO, I'm going to hell. Wait. Oh, now I'm confused!!!


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I know, you guys are just

I know, you guys are just smarter than the vast majority of people in all of human history who have believed and do believe that there is a God. The rest of us, well, we're just crazy. [...]

So, for the sake of this argument, it no longer matters that the majority of the world is practicing blasphemy. By your own admission, you'd want a missionary to save you from those false religions, so using them as a defense of your particular beliefs seems ironic. Your argument is called an appeal to popularity. Favor popularity over reason and evidence. It's not even homogenous popularity, but an adamantly divided and mutually exclusive set of subcategories (that you'd love to convert, but you're instead counting as allies).

Do I even need to go over some of the beliefs people have held in the past that have mercifully fallen out of favor?

 


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rexlunae wrote: I'd love

rexlunae wrote:
I'd love to see the whole world freed of the guilt and fear that religions impose on people,
I hope you are not saying to get rid of guilt and fear altogether, because sometimes both are merited.

rexlunae wrote:
but in all reality, too many people have bought the lie of eternal life too thoroughly. That's a hard thing for them to give up.
Actually, it was harder for me to accept. Life going on forever and ever...come on, that could be pretty boring, right? (I think some people become atheist because the idea of living for eternity terrifies them...I know it did me for awhile.)

rexlunae wrote:
The discussion in this thread started out rationally enough, some arguments on both sides, and then you started complaining about the use of logic as an argument.
But you guys use logic as your crutch. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. You bow down to the idol of logic. (We are beings made to worship. If you don't worship God, you end up worshipping something. Is logic really worth this much affection?)

rexlunae wrote:
You put up a wall of faith that none of us could hope of penetrating.
I don't think I did. I think you guys just really aren't getting what I've been trying to say.

rexlunae wrote:
You've said that you suffer from depression, in other words you have certain feelings that are probably disproportionately negative.
Nope, not really. Because in the act of pursuing Jesus, I am being set freeeeeeeeee!!!!!!! Laughing out loud

rexlunae wrote:
you can't always trust your feelings. They are subject to all sorts of influences that are not reflective of reality.
Most definitely true. That's why I trust the Bible more than my own feelings.

rexlunae wrote:
As a Christian, you are probably afraid that if you doubt god, you will have sinned,
Please. You should see my pages of peotry berating God. He and I go way back.

rexlunae wrote:
you also can't know how liberating it is to realize that there is no divine judge who might condemn you for thought crimes (and yes, your beliefs are thoughts).
No, I don't feel like he is judging me. He's HELPING ME. Jesus is faithful and merciful. HE FORGIVES. I don't understand why you guys aren't getting that!!!!!!!

I've been trying to tell you, you guys are turning your back on the greatest thing...JESUS. It makes no sense. It is not rational. Forget religion and all that crap. I don't care about religion and neither did Jesus. That's not what it's about!! I humbly ask you to at least consider Jesus. Read what he has to say!!!!

Laughing out loud

rexlunae wrote:
Good luck.
I appreciate it. You too.


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magilum wrote: Your

magilum wrote:

Your argument is called an appeal to popularity. Favor popularity over reason and evidence. It's not even homogenous popularity, but an adamantly divided and mutually exclusive set of subcategories (that you'd love to convert, but you're instead counting as allies).

DUDE! Stop thinking so much!!!!!!! "an appeal to popularity" You have a label for what I just said, too????? Seriously. This is becoming comical.  Come to my church sometime. We have fun. (Having fun isn't a sin!!!!)

 In all seriousness, I'm thinking you might be over-thinking this whole god/religion thing.


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I'm still waiting for the

I'm still waiting for the argument that's going to convince me.

I don't know what you're waiting for. Your beliefs are unconditional. If you're waiting for “proof” a deity doesn't exist, I want proof a teapot isn't orbiting the earth.

Of the questions I have “dodged“, which were you most expecting a response to? I know I missed some, but I don't want to sit at my computer 24/7, so I gotta set limits.

Cop out.

Okay, so you don't believe in God. But what about the afterlife. What if...well, do you think this “reality“ is the only dimension? What if this universe consisted of many dimensions and “heaven“ was one of those. [...] Does that mean I'm crazy, imaginative, or open-minded? Do I think God will strike me down for speculating like this? Nah...

Then it's fortunate you don't live in a theocracy.

[...] Okay, to be perfectly honest regarding special pleading...I don't particularly care so much about what it means. I mean, I asked what it meant at first, didn't get a real clear answer, so I gave up on it.

Cop out.

They were saying if you're going to claim support for Christianity's validity based on popularity, that argument would have to be applied to other popular religions as well, or an explanation given why not.

And exactly HOW MANY hare krishna's have I EVER met in my life?? Hmmm....let's see. Well, there were those bald guys in orange robes I saw when I was in Washington D.C. one time..... Something tells me the Krishna message isn't as relavant to people's current lives as Jesus's message is.

Somebody's never heard of Hinduism!


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sugarfree wrote:magilum

sugarfree wrote:
magilum wrote:

Your argument is called an appeal to popularity. Favor popularity over reason and evidence. It's not even homogenous popularity, but an adamantly divided and mutually exclusive set of subcategories (that you'd love to convert, but you're instead counting as allies).

DUDE! Stop thinking so much!!!!!!! "an appeal to popularity" You have a label for what I just said, too????? Seriously. This is becoming comical.  Come to my church sometime. We have fun. (Having fun isn't a sin!!!!)

 In all seriousness, I'm thinking you might be over-thinking this whole god/religion thing.


"STOP THINKING!" I want that on a t-shirt.
Religion's about fun now? Boy, whatever gets asses in the seats, I guess.
BTW, I didn't make up the name for your argument. It's a well known fallacy.


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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Of the questions I have "dodged", which were you most expecting a response to? I know I missed some, but I don't want to sit at my computer 24/7, so I gotta set limits.

I would have thought that was obvious since I have mentioned them specifically in my last few posts: jesus' historicity, and your special pleading.

sugarfree wrote:
That could be because of my pea-sized brain.

Your words, not mine.

sugarfree wrote:


zarathustra wrote:
How am I being close-minded?
Okay, so you don't believe in God. But what about the afterlife. What if...well, do you think this "reality" is the only dimension? What if this universe consisted of many dimensions and "heaven" was one of those. What if...in one of those dimensions, was a really smart alien being...? Do you believe in aliens? What if, that alien was so smart, he created our universe? That would be weird. Then we'd all be wrong! What if...hmmm....what if... Okay, our bodies have their own electrical systems...we constantly have electricity flowing thru us, right? What if each emotions had it's own wavelength...and so, depending on what we thought, our energy vibrated at higher or lower intensity? What if, when we die, we slip into a different dimension based on the properties of our "electrical being"? These wavelengths, these properties, this would be science, right? They could be measured. Soooo, do you ever think like this? I let my mind go like this sometimes. Does that mean I'm crazy, imaginative, or open-minded? Do I think God will strike me down for speculating like this? Nah...

Um...okay. How am I being close-minded?

sugarfree wrote:
Okay, what I'm reading in this is that you think the Bible is a worthless piece of crap, like nothing worthwhile can ever come out of it. That, is what I perceive your bias is. Please tell me if I'm wrong. Let me know if you have one inkling of respect for it, then I'll take back my last comment.

If I saw it in the fiction section next to "Lord of the Rings", I would respect it as much as any other work of fiction, including the qu'ran, the vedas or the book of mormon. (Incidentally, do you consider those religious texts to be "worthless pieces of crap"?) However, when people use the bible to make draw conclusions about history, science, morality and some as of yet unproven being called "god", I think the bible is worse than a worthless piece of crap: it is dangerous.

Here's a simple question (so please give a simple answer): Do es the bible confirm your beliefs, or do your beliefs confirm the bible?

I would also like to point out at this time how you treat the bible as a whole in your statements, as you have done here. However, when I or anyone else has taken issue with passages from the old testament, you retreat, saying you have not read that through, or implying that the o.t. is now irrelevant because of jesus. If you are not prepared to field questions about the o.t., you should not speak of "the bible" as a whole in your arguments, but only the n.t. Otherwise, you are being duplicit: using the bible as a whole when it suits your purpose, then latching on to just the n.t. when it doesn't.

sugarfree wrote:

But to counter your argument: The Bible is not 1 book, it is 66 books. There are 4 books written specifically about Jesus, recording his life. They were written by different authors, presumably in 4 different locations.

Correct...

sugarfree wrote:
So--given what I just said, we have f-o-u-r historical biographies of Jesus' life.

We have f-o-u-r accounts of jesus. What made you think you could sneak "historical" in there without any proof? Because there are f-o-u-r accounts of jesus? F-o-u-r accounts of Papa Smurf do not suddenly become f-o-u-r historical biographies of Papa Smurf.

Shall we start counting the number of accounts of Dionysus in ancient literature? Trust me: it's more than f-o-u-r.

sugarfree wrote:

The fact that they are completely the same and have some inconsistancies

"completely the same and have some inconsistencies" is a contradiction in terms. That is no way to argue a point. By the way, you're right about the "inconsistencies", and wrong about "completely the same".

sugarfree wrote:

--while it bothers you profusely--actually further proves that they were written by different people, in different places. That's f-o-u-r historical accounts of the life of Jesus. There are also the gnostic gospels.

Which differ even further on details, and on the religious precepts that can be drawn from them. Are you familiar with the gospel of Peter, in which jesus brings clay pigeons to life and kills a boy? Shall we include that in his "historical biography"?

sugarfree wrote:
The Gospel of Thomas, etc. Soooooooo..... There you have it. The argument you have provided in an attempt to disprove Jesus' existence is not a strong one, in my opinion.

I have not essayed to disprove jesus' existence. I am simply stating the lack of proof for his existence. Your present argument for his historical existence is apparently that since there are so many accounts of jesus, he must have existed. Please "listen" closely: None of the gospel accounts appeared before the year 70, approximately 40 years after jesus' supposed death. The fact remains: there is not one contemporary account of jesus, or any of the significant events mentioned in the gospels as occurring during his lifetime. Paul himself makes no mention in his letters of any of these significant events, except for jesus' death and resurrection. The plethora of jesus accounts you give is more indicative of a mythological motif developed in many different variations, much like Zeus or Dionysus. Several of the myth motifs -- such as death and resurrection, turning water into wine -- were in full operation prior to the time jesus was supposed to have been born. We have indeed historical figures with myths attached to them, such as Alexander, Caesar Augustus -- or even Davy Crockett. But there are historical references to these individuals that even with the myths stripped away, they still have their place in history.


sugarfree wrote:
Okay, to be perfectly honest regarding special pleading...I don't particularly care so much about what it means. I mean, I asked what it meant at first, didn't get a real clear answer, so I gave up on it.

I've actually lost count of how many times this has been explained to you -- how you can claim you didn't get a real clear answer is beyond me. One more time: How is christianity's rapid spread proof that it is true (your words), but scientology's or islam's spread not proof that they in turn are true? Your only response so far was "false prophecies". Essentially you're saying "christianity is true because it' true, islam is false because it's false".

(If anyone thinks this explanation of special pleading is less than clear, please chime in.)

sugarfree wrote:
zarathustra wrote:
... How would you conclude that I was close-minded here? How are you not close-minded with the terse dismissal "false prophecies"?
Because if I say what I WANT to say, your going to say...that's dumb because of this this and this, so what's the point...I'm never going to get you to agree with me.

Once again, go ahead and say what you WANT to say! Why is it so hard for you to do this? A response like "false prophecies" strikes me as close-minded. But surely you are not close-minded. Surely you considered these other religions with an open mind and didn't just assume that they were wrong without a second thought. If you have an well-supported explanation of why the bible is true and the qu'ran is not, or why christianity's rapid spread was genuine while islam's was not, far be it from me to say "that's dumb because of this and this". Otherwise, it is just your faith against the next guy's, end of story. This of course, would be close-minded. But surely you are not close-minded.

sugarfree wrote:

And exactly HOW MANY hare krishna's have I EVER met in my life?? Hmmm....let's see. Well, there were those bald guys in orange robes I saw when I was in Washington D.C. one time..... Something tells me the Krishna message isn't as relavant to people's current lives as Jesus's message is.

Thank you for that open-minded response. Let's examine, shall we? First of all Krishna is a god of hinduism - which predates christanity by 3,000 years. The hare krishna movement grew out of hinduism later. Now you as an open-minded person conclude that since you personally have not encountered many hare krishnas or hindus than you have christians - jesus message must be more relevant. Please consider with your open mind that 5/6 of the world is not christian - which is to say that after 2,000 years, most of the world doesn't really think much of jesus. The fact that in Podunk, USA (your words) you rub elbows with more christians on average demonstrates the relevance of European immigration to America rather than jesus words.

sugarfree wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
How are you not close-minded to not give krishna and mohammed further consideration?
Because Jesus's messages are AWESOME! Have you read them? I love reading his words. I flip thru the gospels and just read the red sentences. I L-O-V-E Jesus. He was (is) AMAZING!!!! He is my rock, my deliverer, my comfort, I am his beautiful bride. Religion be DAMNED! Just give me JESUS!!!!!!!!! (Is that enough?)

No, really. Why?

 

sugarfree wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
If someone told you that Elvis just came back to life after 3 days and I needed to believe this to go to heaven, would that not seem ridiculous? Would you feel obliged to "tolerate" such a belief? Why is it somehow not ridiculous if we replace "Elvis" with "jesus"? At least in the case of Elvis, we have proof that he was a real person.
Well, there is no authoritative book of Elvis's death and resurrection, so I'll stick with Jesus.

So would you belittle someone's belief in the risen Elvis simply because they don't have an "authoritative book"? As jesus showed, it takes 40 years for the "authoritative book" to get written. We've still got a few years to go. Please don't be so intolerant.

 

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magilum wrote: sugarfree

magilum wrote:
sugarfree wrote:

DUDE! Stop thinking so much!!!!!!!


"STOP THINKING!" I want that on a t-shirt.

There already is this anonymous quote:

"When you start believing, you stop thinking." Laughing


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"(We are beings made to

"(We are beings made to worship. If you don't worship God, you end up worshipping something. Is logic really worth this much affection?)"

 Now this is an assumption that I completely disagree with. Why do you feel that we are "beings made to worship?" I can't think of any good reason to worship anything. I see good reason to love, to be honest, to be gentle and kind, to grow as a person, to ask questions, to decide for oneself on issues, and many other things.

 BUT..

I cannot see worship as a benefit, or as a human attribute that the majority of people believe in. Most Christians I know do not go to church and worship. They believe in a god, but they don't feel that god needs their worship.

If you feel a need to worship something, please go right ahead. But I don't understand your assumption that "most" people have that same need.

 

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life


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sugarfree wrote: rexlunae

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
I'd love to see the whole world freed of the guilt and fear that religions impose on people,
I hope you are not saying to get rid of guilt and fear altogether, because sometimes both are merited.

That's clearly not what I said. My statement was carefully qualified, and you inflated it into a bizarre generalization.

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
but in all reality, too many people have bought the lie of eternal life too thoroughly. That's a hard thing for them to give up.
Actually, it was harder for me to accept. Life going on forever and ever...come on, that could be pretty boring, right? (I think some people become atheist because the idea of living for eternity terrifies them...I know it did me for awhile.)

Well, I agree with you there. Living forever would suck.

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
The discussion in this thread started out rationally enough, some arguments on both sides, and then you started complaining about the use of logic as an argument.
But you guys use logic as your crutch. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. You bow down to the idol of logic. (We are beings made to worship. If you don't worship God, you end up worshipping something. Is logic really worth this much affection?)

No. Worship is what you do. It is satisfying to be able to think clearly, but that's not the same thing. It is entirely possible to live your life not worshiping anything.

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
You put up a wall of faith that none of us could hope of penetrating.
I don't think I did. I think you guys just really aren't getting what I've been trying to say.

I understood you to be saying that you don't want to use logic to approach the question of god. Is that not what you were saying?

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
you can't always trust your feelings. They are subject to all sorts of influences that are not reflective of reality.
Most definitely true. That's why I trust the Bible more than my own feelings.

Ok, but why do you trust the Bible and not the Koran or the Book of Mormon or the Lord of the Rings?

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
As a Christian, you are probably afraid that if you doubt god, you will have sinned,
Please. You should see my pages of peotry berating God. He and I go way back.

Interesting. Why do you berate god?

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
you also can't know how liberating it is to realize that there is no divine judge who might condemn you for thought crimes (and yes, your beliefs are thoughts).
No, I don't feel like he is judging me. He's HELPING ME. Jesus is faithful and merciful. HE FORGIVES.

The fact that you need forgiveness implies that you are being judged. You shouldn't need forgiveness for thoughts, no matter what they are. Thoughts don't harm anyone.

sugarfree wrote:
I've been trying to tell you, you guys are turning your back on the greatest thing...JESUS.

We like things that exist...

sugarfree wrote:
It makes no sense. It is not rational. Forget religion and all that crap. I don't care about religion and neither did Jesus. That's not what it's about!! I humbly ask you to at least consider Jesus. Read what he has to say!!!!

I've been a Christian. Lots of us have. Jesus is really overrated. It's much better, in my opinion, to think for yourself, and live a life without unnecessary guilt. Why pray for forgiveness when you can just realize there's nothing to be forgiven for? If you truly wrong someone, apologize to them. No need to go humble yourself before your imaginary friend.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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Google is your friend. From

Google is your friend. From this site on nizkor.org:

Quote:
Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption.

From what I gather, sugarfree, you claim that because Christianity rapidly spread that this shows it's "trueness." But you don't think other religions that spread fast are true. In your plead you want to treat Christianity specially, without any justification, by allowing something be true for Christianity but not allowing it to be true of other non-Christian religions.

If you don't want to be guilty of special pleading, then you need to justify why Christianity's rapid spread gives credibility to it, and why this same credibility is not given to other rapidly spreading religions.


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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
No one here is taking a holier then thou attitude, you just don't want to discuss this on reasonable terms
This is your opinion. I was just hoping we could all express our viewpoints in an atmosphere free of judgement and condemnation. That, apparently, is not how it works on this site.

Honest discussion sometimes means passing judgment on someone else's opinion. Would you rather we not be honest? I honestly don't respect religious belief, just as you honestly don't respect our lack of belief.

I have tried to keep personal attacks out of the equation. (I don't always succeed.) In some cases you have confused our attack on religion as an attack on you, personally.

Here's an excerpt from Sam Harris's Atheist Manifesto. It's about three pages long and I highly recommend you read it:

"Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas."

That is why I would urge you to stay and converse, even though you may not always like all that is said. You should not base your decision of "truth" on emotion or gut feelings or how you perceive the people on this forum.

 

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I'm sorry, you are not

I'm sorry, you are not going to like this, but these are not my words.  You can attribute them to whomever you like.

 Luke 4:1-13

 John 8:42-47

 And for some palette cleansing (and for my own benefit, hopefully one day for yours also):

 John 17:20-26 

 Goodbye for now.  Much luck to all of you, and the same for me. 


MattShizzle
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Haven't you realized yet we

Haven't you realized yet we don't care what a book chock-full-of-bullshit says?


deludedgod
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Dude! I want your "Stop

Dude! I want your "Stop thinking so much" saying on a t-shirt as well! I wish more theists would make this argument instead of trying to insist on the rationality of their faith. Damn that thinking! That evil process! After all, when people think, what can the rulers do? We must all unite AND STOP PEOPLE FROM THINKING! EVERYONE MUST WORSHIP THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER! No-one will be allowed to think. They must worship. I'm sorry, but now I'm just having fun. This is by far the best and funniest thread I have ever encountered!

CYA

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


zarathustra
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sugarfree wrote: I'm

sugarfree wrote:

I'm sorry, you are not going to like this, but these are not my words.

You can attribute them to whomever you like.

Yes we pretty much can - because after all this time, you haven't shown that there's any truth to these words. 

sugarfree wrote:

Luke 4:1-13

John 8:42-47

Ahhh...special pleading once again, just for all time's sake. 

sugarfree wrote:

And for some palette cleansing (and for my own benefit, hopefully one day for yours also):

John 17:20-26

Some palette cleansing to go with that brainwashing.  

sugarfree wrote:

Goodbye for now. Much luck to all of you, and the same for me.

There's no such thing as luck, just as there's no such thing as god.  You apparently have a need for both, whereas we have a need for neither.

I'm sure there's 72 bowls of white sugar waiting for you in heaven.  Enjoy. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:

I'm sorry, you are not going to like this, but these are not my words. You can attribute them to whomever you like.

Luke 4:1-13

John 8:42-47

And for some palette cleansing (and for my own benefit, hopefully one day for yours also):

John 17:20-26

Goodbye for now. Much luck to all of you, and the same for me.

Luke 4:5 - "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

The devil takes Jesus to the top of a mountain and shows him "all the kingdoms of the world." Because the writers believed the earth to be flat in those days. Stupid book!


John 8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So Jesus calls the Jews, the sons of the devil, and that there "is no truth" in the devil.

But then in:

Luke 4:41 - "And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ."

So were 'the devils" lying then also? Stupid book!

Good luck to you. If you can't even think your way through to realizing the most obvious fact that Christianity is a fraud and hoax, you are certainly going to need much luck.

 

"... the Bible was a collection of books written at different times by different men -- a strange mixture of diverse human documents -- and a tissue of irreconcilable notions. Inspired? The Bible is not even intelligent. It is not even good craftsmanship, but is full of absurdities and contradictions." ~ E. Haldeman-Julius

"[The Bible is] a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology." ~ Mark Twain

"As long as woman regards the Bible as the charter of her rights, she will be the slave of man. The bible was not written by a woman. Within its leaves there is nothing but humiliation and shame for her." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." ~ Isaac Asimov

"If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" ~ Robert G. Ingersoll


ABx
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Hopefully not too late in the game..

The subject of "logic" seems to have become a rather heated one in this thread. I think it bares addressing, and I'll also use it as an entrance to the rest of my thoughts on the original post. I do hope that sugarfree sees fit to read all of my post,. Although it's not a post intended to convince anyone to be an atheist, it is my own feelings on the matter (which, although critical, should not be seen as derogatory).

Logic is not a dogma or crutch, it's not a set of beliefs. It is a finely tuned system of thinking that is in line with nature to the degree that it reliably produces results or plausible results. Something that is logical stands on it's own as something that could possibly be demonstrated to be true without necessitating any of it's constituent components to be speculative. Two plus two equals four is logical because we know for a fact what two is, and you can repeatedly demonstrate that adding two more will equal four. If you were to say that "if we agree that two can sometimes equal three, then two plus two equals five", this would not be logical because we would have to speculate, without evidence, that two could possibly be three, despite the fact that this can never be seen in the real world.

Logic produces reliable results. It's the opposite of belief, as it has to be able to be demonstrated. Over the centuries humans have found principals that must be followed for something to be logical. Such things include falsifiability. If your statement cannot be shown to be false, then it cannot be logical, because there is no test to disprove it, and lack of proof is not proof for something's existence. One of the reasons that we can accept that two plus two equals four is that it leaves you room to try, and thus room for it to be disproved if it's not true.

You hear a lot about logical fallacies because there are a lot of forms of reasoning that are not logical. That is to say that they are not realistic and cannot produce accurate results. Reasoning (which is different from logic) is just the faculty which you use to come to conclusions, it says nothing of the conclusion's plausibility or accuracy. We all have known people that rationalize obviously false beliefs using faulty reason, especially in times of great stress such as a relationship ending or a very close loved one dying. Once the overwhelming emotion subsides, we come to more logical conclusions that give us proper closure, and that brings me to my next point.

There is one historical constant that has marked our progress as a species as we become civilized, and that is that as we grow we shed our illogical precepts and rationalizations and become a more wise, balanced, and civil people. We started out with little understanding of our environment, and as we learned truths we admit our mistakes and correct them. This becomes easier as our basic needs are more easily taken care of.

Here's a few things that we, as a people, once clinged to because it was more comfortable to believe them than not (at the time) because they helped us to attain our short-term goals, and that we have since grown out of and improved ourselves and our lives based on logic:

- Government persecution based on religious preference is bad, secular government is more fair and works better (the founding of the USA, the spread of democracy and freedom of religion).
- Blacks are people too; they should not be enslaved, they are people just like people of every other color, they should be allowed to vote, attend the same schools, share the same water fountains, etc.
- Jews and gays should not be killed by the millions because a dictator doesn't agree with their values, and we should take steps to prevent this from happening by thinking critically about who we allow to power.
- Part and parcel to the last point: absolute power corrupts absolutely.
- People should not be unjustly accused of being witches and burned at the stake. Even if they are witches, they should not be put to death simply because of their beliefs and practices (so long as they don't actually kill anyone).
- People accused of adultery should not be put to death. It's not right, but capital punishment is too harsh.
- People should have a right to a due process.
- The Spanish Inquisition was wrong.
- Hate crimes are wrong.

The list goes on and on. These are all things that were believed by the majority of people until logic prevailed and we admitted our mistakes and moved on. These weren't comforting or convenient truths, they were the cold hard facts. Once we got over the emotional resistance to these things and did the right thing, everyone ultimately benefited and prospered. We didn't need a god to tell us these things, in fact it was often a god that started them. We, as a people, decided collectively what was right and wrong, and even applied this to all the different values in the bible as the religious chose to adhere to some principals and leave others behind, more so as time went on.

It should also be noted that the most heinous and numerous of these crimes against humanity often involved religion. That's not to say that religion is the only factor, but it is the most prevalent. It should be noted that these atrocities are either religious, or due to something else (like national pride). I've seen a few places claim that atheism has caused all sorts of atrocities, which is clearly not true - when was the last time you heard of a dictator commit mass murder for the specific claim that "there is no god, so people must die"? There are plenty that used non-religious excuses, which religion played no direct roll in either way, but there are far more atrocities that were committed in the name of one religion or another, or was due to differences in religious belief. There were some that mixed religion in in one way or another, but the determining factor that I'm speaking of is whether the atrocity would have occurred in the absence of religion - some would have, but many would not.

From what I've seen in history, the more steps a society takes away from religion, the better off everyone has ultimately been. Governments that are both democratic and secular seem to have a tendency to produce less oppression and bloodshed, so long as they stay away from religious issues.

I don't need either logic or religion for my personal fulfillment or happiness. I don't need religion or any book to dictate ethics or morality to know what is right and wrong. I don't need a god to fill in any kind of void, I have no "god/jesus shaped hole in my heart". Ultimately I find religion to raise more questions, and damage the mind and intellect more than anything else.

Science doesn't fill any spiritual void for me, but it does make sense of the world around me and give me a vision and hope for the future. I'm not afraid of the unknown, and have no need to assign mystical precepts to the unknown. The only fear that I have of the future, both my personal future and the future of mankind, is that someone that has religious views that conflict with my own views will take a position of power and affect my how I live my private life. I'm afraid that a religious man will take office that will run the country, not based on universal truths, what's been demonstrated to work, what's proven about the world around us, and what's logical, but rather based on his HOPES that come from his religion. I'm more afraid that a president will take power that decides there is no reason to take responsibility or accountability for our environment or society because god will come back and fix it for us, than I am afraid of what happens when I die. I repeat, I am more afraid of what will be done to this world than what might possibly maybe happen when I die. I recognize that there is no possible way that I can know what will happen when I die, and do not concern myself with it. There have been countless numbers of answers in tons of different books from tons of different people in many different countries in many different times. None of them have any more basis for truth, but they all claim to be the only truth. The one commonality they all have is a near obsessive fear of death, and that is not how I choose to live my life.

Some have said it's a safer bet to believe, but I find two glaring problems with this. The first is that I do not see it as "nothing lost" if I don't believe, as I have seen many de-converted religious people very angry because of the life and opportunity lost and wasted due to the inordinate amount of time spent focusing on fear of things we can't control. You're told you have to feel guilty and bad, and spend your life doing just the right thing in hopes that the all loving god might forgive you. The second is that which one of the innumerable number of answers given, each of which claim a monopoly on truth and warn of grave consequences for not believing, am I supposed to believe? Even if you reduce it to one god, you still have hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations that all tell you that you have to believe it in these very specific ways, and that every other way will result in the aforementioned grave consequences. Which brings me to my next point.

Every theist that brings the subject of god to the table has their own point of view with their own convictions and their own monopoly on the truth. This isn't a truth that can be questioned (at least not freely), demonstrated, proven, or even shown evidence for. On the other hand each and every one of them uses deception, faulty logic, and sometimes outright lies to make their case, although it's not always intentional (in fact I would say that most of the ones that are not clergy in some form don't realize it because it's what their clergy has told them was true). They will say that something has been scientifically proven when it quite clearly has not. They will say that something is absolutely not proven when it quite clearly has. They will say there is no evidence for something when there is a huge pile of it, and vice versa. They will claim to be using clear logic when it doesn't hold up to the slightest hint of it. Different people will present different cases, and each will tell you that the other is "not what we're really like". The extremists will tell you in no uncertain terms that you have to believe something very specifically. You resist this and someone else tells you that they aren't right, that the truth is more moderate. There are then numerous different iterations of that moderation, each with different interpretations of the truth, but all claiming the sole truth. God seems to be a custard that can't be nailed to the wall. They all use the same bad logic, each claiming that it will hold up to scrutiny, but each refuses the other and will insist that you don't know what you're talking about if you don't agree with the premise. When it comes down to it, they will usually find ways of shutting the conversation down completely. They'll enter the conversation claiming that they're looking for truth, but when logic, or even reason, starts to lead away from their comfort zone they will resort to shutting down and attacking the other person. Heck, I've even seen these conversations end with "You can tell he's a satanist because he's intelligent. Logic is the tool of the devil".

And this is how we're supposed to search for the truth?

I'm sorry, but I don't see it. The brightest of minds that this world has ever produced, from all different points of view, have formulated ways of thinking about our existence that have shown results and make sense of other things. These methods reliably reveal what makes this universe work in ways that can be clearly seen by everyone everywhere, in no uncertain terms, anytime, reliably.

No, I don't have the answers to every question. I will always have existential questions that science won't be able to answer, at least in my lifetime. The big "BUT" here is that I'm not afraid of that. That actually fills me with wonder and awe for our existence. It may confound the theist to know that I actually find comfort in it. I can review and revise my beliefs as needed, and grow as a person. I actually enjoy finding a truth, even when it destroys a prior personal belief. The fact that there is not one single entity that answers every question of the unknown makes life that much more interesting to me. I don't need to be made to feel special by some divine right. I am well aware of how small and insignificant I am in this universe - that makes me feel lucky as hell to be here, and makes me reach for ever greater goals. I'm free to think about the most mysterious of sciences, like quantum theory, string theory, complexity theory, chaos theory, and on and on, and not think about how it might apply to any kind of personal convictions.

There is only one thing that I hold as an absolute conviction, and that is that if there did turn out to be a creator, science would never disprove any word it really sent down. If a god was responsible for all that we see and know, then probing and analyzing it, learning to think congruently with the ways that the universe can be shown to operate, would never run contrary to this creator; it would, in fact, reveal it more and more, without needing any kind of holy book, special interpretation, or speculative premise. This creator would be seen simply by looking, and without having to think "Did a god do this?" Just like a clock in a field that is clearly artificial in contrast to nature and bares the individual artistry of a clearly organic mind influenced by the aesthetic standards of his century. This creator would also surely never want to prohibit us from observing or thinking about any part of his creation, and would want us to learn and grow in any and every way possible. Ultimately, other explanations of our universe and existence would simply not work, but the simple fact is that they do.

Perhaps some day we, as a people, will come to understand that there is some kind of higher intelligence and come to understand how it works and exists. Perhaps we will come to see other universes and be able to contrast them with our own. Perhaps a higher intelligence will even be found in this other universe that we can explore and communicate with in some fashion. Perhaps it will even have something to say about the creative forces of this universe. At such a time many (but not anywhere near all) questions would be answered, and be apparent to all. At such a time I will enthusiastically and whole-heartedly explore the subject and learn how it enhances our knowledge and brings it to new heights, for it will certainly bring forth the most exciting kind of technology to truly accelerate our advancement and improve our lives! Until such a time, I find no lack of fulfillment, wonder, inspiration, and comfort in what we have now, and if there is one truth that I hold to be absolute, it is that truth about nature is always more subtle and yet beautiful than we ever expect. And that *is* something that can be seen throughout all of human endeavors, from art, to science, to philosophy, to economics, and on and on.


ollj
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Believing in the chtristian

Believing in the chtristian concept of a god you already are an atheist towards many other gods, including zeuss and shiva. You deny the concept of them to be true, otherwise you would worship them.

A general atheist just goes one god further by mirroring the denial towards one god towards any god.

3 simple reasons are a lack of evidence for any god (excluding all made up so called "jou just have to believe my faulty definition for evidence&quotEye-wink...

and the sum of fallacies in (ancient) mythical stories about ALL gods that reduce the concept of them to nothing but a scam: "donate some money for much salvation". It is just a variation of the nigerian scam and there is no evidence for any salvation because it is just fictional/scam.

The third and most reasonable reason for atheism is that ignorance is NOT a bliss, instead religious beliefs affect the dopamine system similar to drugs and any addiction; the positive effects of addiction usually come at a high cost.


ShaunPhilly
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Sugarfree, you have talked

Sugarfree, you have talked about how you have become a better person because of Christianity. I must ask you to consider that it is not Christianity (or Christ) that is making you a better person but yourself.

Thinking philosophically, whether inspired from the Bible or any other source, will tend to make people re-consider many factors of their life. Any introspection will tend to improve a person. That's why the oracle at Delphi said "Know Thyself" (it actually said it in Greek, something like gnothe seauton), because seeking self-knowledge, introspection, and search for wisdom will find these things.

What you have done, sugarfree, is undertaken a personal journey of self-discovery and wisdom. You have found it amoung others who are on the same search within a Christian community. What you should consider is that this journey is possible in any religion or lack-thereof.

The wisdom and other valuable ideas in the Bible (whether we agree they are valuable or not) are not valuable because the Bible says them. rather, they are valuable because they make sense to us and we make them valuable. Thus, what is really the cause of your improvement is your ability to distinguish between wisdom and non-wisdom. You may say that this is because you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit or taht because God gave you this power, but that would be begging the question.

Begging the question means, simply, that you assume what you conclude. If the question is what the source of wisdom, truth, etc is, then to conclude that when we find it it is due to God's gift of the ability to tell the difference, you have simply asnwered the question by assuming the answer you wanted. If, in pursuing truth, self-improvement, and wisdom you find it while reading the Bible, you cannot say that it was God's truth. You can say that you learned it from the Bible, but to assume that the Bible is God's word is circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning, in this case, is the following (or something like it); a) The Bible is true because the Bible is God's word. The Bible is God's word because the Bible says that it is the word of God.

What if I said; b) The Quran is true because it is God's truth. The Quran is God's truth because the Quran says that it is God's truth.

What's the difference between a) and b)? Unless you can rationally justify why a) is true and that b) is false, you are committing the special pleading fallacy, already explained.

And if you don't have reasons for your belief, then you cannot be surprised when others don't believe you.

I, personally, believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't care what reasoning anyone has, what evidence there is, or what you believe, because the FSM has helped me improve as a person and I feel his noodly appendage on me frequently. Nothing can budge my faith in the FSM.  The FSM is real and Ican't believe that you would deny it!

Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


sugarfree
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ABx wrote: Some have said

ABx wrote:

Some have said it's a safer bet to believe, but I find two glaring problems with this. The first is that I do not see it as "nothing lost" if I don't believe, as I have seen many de-converted religious people very angry because of the life and opportunity lost and wasted due to the inordinate amount of time spent focusing on fear of things we can't control. You're told you have to feel guilty and bad, and spend your life doing just the right thing in hopes that the all loving god might forgive you.

ABx, I found your post insightful and interesting.  I sense you do have an open mind.  While I do not agree with everything you said, The quote above was the thing I felt I most wanted to comment on.  As far as the Christian faith goes, I feel people who spend their Christian lives worrying and fretting, most likely have it wrong.  Jesus says not to worry.  The idea is that when you find yourself fearing, worrying, fretting, you cast your cares on Him.  In atheist terms, it simply means, you let it go.  Also, a good Christian teacher is not going to say "you are bad, you sinner, you horrible person".  The idea is that when you are baptized, you are made into a new person (spiritually speaking).  Jesus doesn't hold grudges.  He says, when you realize you have "sinned" (i.e., made a mistake), then stop doing that thing.  In atheist terms, that means, say your sorry and/or stop doing that which you have finally come to realize is hurting you.  Also, there is plenty of awe in the Christian life.  Whereas, an atheist might say, "isn't nature/science fascinating" a Christian would say "isn't God brilliant for creating this thing...

 


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Shaun-- How being a

Shaun--

How being a Christian has made me better is that I used to have to pick everything apart, reason everything to death, because ulimately I was seeking to control that which I could not control.  I thought, if I figured it out, I could control it.  This very much let to serotonin burnout, i.e. depression.  When I became a Christian, I realized I don't have to figure everything out.  That I can just let some things "be".  In other words, I began systematically letting go of those things I was trying to control.

Also before Christianity, I did not really know how to connect with people.  I knew I wanted to connect, and that I needed it for my well-being...but I didn't understand WHY I needed it, or how to go about doing it.  Since becoming a Christian, I am slowly learning to accept the fact that, yes, I need people, I will always need people, I cannot be an island unto myself.  And I am also learning how to reach out and ask for help when I need it, rather than retreating back into my shell and trying to figure out how to solve thing my own way.

Another thing is, I started opening myself up to possibility.  To the fact that, maybe there is a God that wants to speak to ME.  It seemed impossible, unthinkable, but I decided to open myself up to the possibility and see where it led me.  I had questions about the Bible, I knew there were plenty things about it that I did not like, or understand, but I decided, I was going to read the Bible...and I prayed to Jesus to reveal it's truth to me.

 Just last night I was reading where Jesus said he did not come to bring peace, but to divide.  I thought about this site, about the profound disagreements we have been having here...the fact that we truly cannot see each other's point of view, and I realized, yes, Jesus has divided us.  He had to come, to divide us, to force us to choose God, or to not choose God.  God is testing us.

  The other thing, when I come to a part in the Bible I don't get, or wonder about, I just read it and say "God I really don't get that", and I move on.  I don't think its a big deal to God, or to my Christian walk, that I don't get it right now.  Maybe I will get it in the future...  Truth is...it's no big deal right now.

Before I considered becoming a Christian, I never prayed.  Quite frankly, I never even considered it.  But my Christian college roommate prayed all the time.  The other thing I noticed about my college roommate was...she was calm.  There was a peace about her.  She wasn't the most attractive girl, but that didn't seem to matter to her.  She didn't berate herself about it, she didn't fret, or worry (like I was CONSTANTLY doing).  So, I decided to give it a try...let me pray to this God...and, my prayer was answered...and I was shocked by that.

Now that I have been a Christian for about a decade, I am beginning to understand the path God has had me on.  I'm looking back and seeing that events in my life, which I did not understand, are paying off in big way in my future.  Because...in the early days of my career, I was given opportunities that I didn't want, and not given opportunities that I wanted...but now...I see why He wanted me in this particular job, or at that particular location...  It is fun to look back and see what happens when I earnestly seek God's will for my life.  The pieces of my life...my experiences, are fitting together, building upon themselves...and that is quite satisfying.