I don't know you, but...
Offline This is a back-and-forth between myself and another woman whom contacted me on MySpace. It's in correct order:
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Nicki
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:13 PM
I don't know you, but I love you.
God bless,
Nicki
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rook
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:14 PM
I don't know you, but I love you too.
By the way, what is a "bless?"
I'll be thinking for you,
Rook Hawkins
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Nicki
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:35 PM
You'll be thinking for me.
I'll be praying for you.
We have a mutual admiration society.
Nicki
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rook
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:36 PM
You didn't answer my question, what is a bless? How can you "bless" me without even knowing what a "bless" is?
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Nicki
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:41 PM
Bless
Function: transitive verb
1: to hallow or cosecrate by religious or word.
2: to hallow with sign og the cross
3: to invoke devine car for < bless you heart> used in the phrase bless you to wish good health.
All of thee above. 
Nicki
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rook
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:43 PM
Okay, so what does it do?
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Nicki
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:49 PM
A prayer... what does it do?
Is it just words?
Or is there something meaningful behind them. Well, I guess that depends on the person's heart and intention.
I could say "God bless" with a contrive smile and you would know I was being sarcastic. That would just be a monologue: a repetition fancy words. Or, I could say God Bless, desplaying an authenticity that isn't manufactured from what I hear everyone else say because it sounds good. It is because I mean it form my heart.
Nicki
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rook
Date: Sep 20, 2006 1:57 PM
A prayer... what does it do?
No, a Bless. According to your definition, a Bless is not a prayer. Its simply a magnamomous gesture, which is fine. But what does it do?
Is it just words?
To me, a Bless is just words. Unless you want to teach me what it is. That is, if you know. It seemed as if you had to find a definition because not even you knew what it was, and had to go research it before you gave me an answer. There is nothing wrong with that, to me learning never stops.
Or is there something meaningful behind them. Well, I guess that depends on the person's heart and intention.
Forgive me if this is a bit blunt but, if your heart was a factor in anything, mainly as your statement implies - that it has some real effect on you aside from pumping blood - then you could make billions of dollars proving that.
As for prayer, how often do your prayers get answered? Answer honestly because it is very easy to inflate numbers.
I could say "God bless" with a contrive smile and you would know I was being sarcastic. That would just be a monologue: a repetition fancy words. Or, I could say God Bless, desplaying an authenticity that isn't manufactured from what I hear everyone else say because it sounds good. It is because I mean it form my heart.
Nicki
Okay, but you aren't answering my question, my dear. Forgive me, perhaps I did not represent my question properly. You are explaining to me why you would say "God Bless", and you are explaining to me how to know a "bless" is really meant, which is fine. But what does it do? What is it meant for? Does it have any real meaning? If I save them up (say, 1,000 blesses) do I get to trade them in for something I need, like food or water or shelter or clothing? That would make plenty of sense, and I would love it if you blessed me everyday.
But I don't know exactly what it is yet, because it appears as if a "Bless" is, according to your research, merely a gesture of goodwill. Which is fine, but it doesn't really help me if that is the case. I could live a thousand years without a "Bless" in that case, because I'd be just the same as I would be with or without "blessings."
But since you value it so much, I'm assuming there is much more to a "Bless" then just a gesture. So if that is the case, can you tell me what it does?
Thank you very much,
Rook
I have yet to recieve a response, but she has read this reply. She was online a good hour after she read it too. So I think she may not respond, or she is seeking an answer from a pastor/youth pastor.
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Good stuff Rook.
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You made her start to think aboout what she was doing and she was unable to give a rational answer. Either she was irritated by having to think and won't respond or she is seeking an answer from somone she thinks knows more than she does on this subject. She'll never be able to do this again without at least a hesitation.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
Yep. Go Socratic Method.
lol I have a really funny convo too and my last reply to this woman was awesome but she never ever responded back and that was like a week and a half ago. She'll like the 11th person I've debated down on myspace. lol I'm going to use what is a bless on someone and see what they say.
---George Carlin---
SHE RESPONDED:
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Nicki
Date: Sep 21, 2006 12:04 PM
No sweetheart,
I was using prayer as an example of interpretation: not the definition.
I don't want to debate with you on the meaning because that was not my motive by saying God bless.
I was agnostic my whole life. I hated Christianity because I thought they were hypocrites. I empathized to what you said on your myspace because you are exactly how I use to be. I didn't find God through church or other people. I have had spiritual experiences that can be explained by just "words."
All I wanted to say is my heart goes out to you whether that is saying God bless or I love you.
I will pray for you as well.
Nicki
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Rook
Date: Sep 21, 2006 12:56 PM
No sweetheart,
Aw, thanks. You made my day. Especially coming from a beauty such as you, thank you.
I was using prayer as an example of interpretation: not the definition.
I don't want to debate with you on the meaning because that was not my motive by saying God bless.
Yes, but I wish to udnerstand it. You can obviously see that I want to learn from you, you said it so definitively. As if you had authority, so I assumed (perhaps I was presumptuous?) you could explain to me what exactly a bless is for. You obviously meant it, but you don't seem to know what it is about, what it is for, what they are for....
Do you usually say things without knowing what they are and what they are good for?
I was agnostic my whole life. I hated Christianity because I thought they were hypocrites.
Oh, my dear, I don't hate Christianity. I am an agnostic-atheist, a link will explain to you why I am so.
I empathized to what you said on your myspace because you are exactly how I use to be. I didn't find God through church or other people.
Well I appreciate your empathy. It's hard to find somebody who understands. But why the change of subject? I am still quite interested on what a Bless is good for. Too often do I hear things said by people who have not the slightest idea of what it means. This bothers me because I like to know the benefit of what I'm saying.
For example: If I tell my fiance I love her, I know what that means, I know what that encompases because I have seen the love I have for her grow and play out in a physical sense. I have seen her love for me also play out physically. I can test that emotion and know where that emotion comes from (The brain, not the heart - which only pumps blood. The idea of a heart controling your body is a primative concept, not a modern one).
With a bless however, I do not even know what it is, what its uses have, and have not seen the measurable effects of it. People bless the homeless all the time, but they never lift a finger to help them off their feet. They feel that a bless has accomplished something, as if that will make up for the fact that they could have easily given them food, or took them to a shelter for care and help.
So I ask you again, what is a bless good for besides making the "blesser" feel better about themselves?
I have had spiritual experiences that can be explained by just "words."
You are proving my point my dear, that a blessing only makes the person doing the blessings feel good. What is the purpose of it otherwise? We can obviously live without such things, many people do every day. Unless tehre is some alterior thing I am not seeing. If I am missing something, show me the way.
All I wanted to say is my heart goes out to you whether that is saying God bless or I love you.
I've already expressed my gratitude for the gesture, but that doesn't help me. All it seems you are doing is substituting real help for a word. You are basically telling yourself "I've done enough" by uttering a useless phrase like "God bless you." It accomplishes nothing but make you feel better about yourself, it's self-gratifying.
You disagree, then show me where I err. I am a willing student.
I will pray for you as well.
Nicki
I'd like to think that you don't know what you are talking about, but I don't believe that. I tell myself, you must have a lot of knowledge if you can't answer my questions, apparently there is just so much time and effort in explaining it that it'd all fall on dumb ears. That perhaps I am not witty enough to catch it all? Please, answer my questions for me so I can become the wiser for it.
Best wishes,
Rook
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Yea dude bash those theists!
Your the man!
Hostility over Respectibility!
Oh Shit, perhaps I brainwashed? Perhaps I have been enculturated to accept such morals as respect, rather than overt confrontation!
Blast, please disect my statement sentence by sentence as to delibitate my stance, reducing me to nothing short of a babbling brainwashed non-conformist on the Rational Response Sqaud boards!
He bashed the beliefs not the theist.
Agreed.
Jeez, you think that was hostile? Spend 30 minutes with him in a debate with the style I've seen from your first 3 posts, your in for the ride of your life. Clearly the belief that a blessing serves some sort of purpose other than to make Niki feel better doesn't deserve much respect, Niki however as our brethren deserves respect which is why Rook is willing to waste his time talking to her about it.
Obviously, but we'll still help you out of it, because we respect you.
Can your culture tell us the purpose of a "blessing?"
Done. Your welcome (in advance of your thank you).
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Thanks for your quippets. They were about as useless as mine were.
Anyways, deconvert, its not a word. Please respond, i noticed you didnt adress this in the other thread
Nobody else seems to have a hard time understanding it's use. Makes perfect sense as a word.
It's something I don't care to argue. You call it convert, fine with me.
Here's a thread on IG where a theist made the same charge. (oh fwiw you get confused for a theist because you tend to only make arguments that theists make) If you really care to DEBATE it, rehash it with them at IG.
Some snippets from that thread:
See thread for more, including comments from one of the most irrational and close minded people the IG board ever had: "actualrationalist."
Now, as for atheism being a natural born state... argue away... refute all of this... http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist
Feel free to jump on the back of others that you can lend support to, in a thread right up your alley: Is this site hypocritical which has turned into the atheist/agnostic discussion.
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Or Chuck-E-Cheez tokens
This reminds me of a very funny argument to god "giving" you a new "gift" of virginity if you used it already, in form of a comic strip:
(enjoy!)
http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/journal/wuzup.shtml
Anyway, nice work Rook.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Even shit is more valuable than a "bless" - at least a farmer or gardener can use it as fertilizer.
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I always thought of "god bless" as the opposite of "goddamn you" meaning good wishes (good tidings for you...blah blah)as opposed to evil ones. lol
Interesting read.
Mmm... perhaps someone should delete that article at wikipedia then.
The Vernacular is far different from the actual language. I will use real words when I discuss theological issues, rather than words such as "ain't" and "deconvert." Furthermore, deconvert seems to me to be logically flawed. I will elaborate.
de-
pref.
1. Do or make the opposite of; reverse: decriminalize.
2. Remove or remove from: delouse; deoxygenate.
3. Out of: deplane; defenestration.
4. Reduce; degrade: declass.
5. Derived from: deverbative.
con‧vert1 /v. kənˈvɜrt; n. ˈkɒnvɜrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. kuhn-vurt; n. kon-vurt]
1. to cause to adopt a different religion, political doctrine, opinion, etc
(I have chosen this definition because that is the sense we use it in)
Now, since atheism is not a religion (hmmm quite contrary to most theist beliefs =]) or a political doctrince, it must be an opinion, more specifically a specific stance an issue. Lets apply this definition to the definition for the prefix "de" can you cause some one to do the opposite of (def. 1) adopting an opinion? No. When changings someone's opinion to atheism you are not simply removing their opinion (the opposite of adopting an opinion) you are replacing their opinion - replacement is not the opposite of adoption, rather it is just adoption but instead of fighting against a blank slate you are fighting with a slate that has been written on. Now how bout defintion 2 (remove or remove from) This similair to the prior, can you remove someone of an opinion (a stance on an issue)? It seems that you can, but we must look deeper. If someone has a stance on an issue, all you can really do is change that stance, you can't completley remove there stance. Therefore you are merely converting thier stance to something else. I could elaborate on the others if you wish but they don't seem to need elaboration.
So there you have deconversion is just a pretty word that comes in handy for you when debating theists.
But the bottomline is Sapient, deconvert is not a standard word verified by dictionaries, as you originally asserted, and you have changed the basis of this "debate" in asserting that it is a word in the vernacular. So you see, argue how you will, deconvert is not a dictionary-verifiable word, and you were in fact wrong.
I will comment on your other things later, i dont have time now
Yeah, you can. If I believe there is a god, then I no longer believe one, I have just removed my god belief.
Where did I say it was in "dictionaries?" I believe I provided one dictionary(wiktionary) and showed why it can be considered a word, I also showed you a post from someone who explained there are tons of words we use that aren't in dictionaries.
I don't mind being wrong. Quote the part where I said deconvert is in many dictionaries and you will have done it.
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Alright my friend, this will be my last post, your welcome - a pre-empt to your thank you.
"Yeah, you can. If I believe there is a god, then I no longer believe one, I have just removed my god belief."
Blah missing the point. Surprise. You see, to every issue there are at least two sides. Issue: "God" Possible Responses that you offer: 1. Yes I believe, 2. No I dont believe. When you deconvert some one to atheism (ermmm how illogical does that sound) you cause them to replace the former belief with the latter. It can work vice versa. The only way where replacement would not occur would be the removal of the issue, which is impossible. This is where a deconversion would take place, being that no one selects another stance. When you replace theism with atheism you convert the individual from theism to atheism. Perhaps that clears things up, convert demands a 'from' and a 'to'. Likewise, so does your atheism deconversion BS. Therefore they are the same thing in essence and one must go. Voila, that will be deconvert.
Now. Moving on.
"Where did I say it was in "dictionaries?" I believe I provided one dictionary(wiktionary) and showed why it can be considered a word, I also showed you a post from someone who explained there are tons of words we use that aren't in dictionaries."
By proving your existance of deconvert you used a dictionary. Thus you implied that dictionaries are the means to proving a word. It was not spoken, but i was simply using your logic to refute your word. I continued to disprove your word using other methods, since you insisted on shifting your stance and not admitting that you were initially wrong to use the key you presented. Perhaps you don't understand this. But I'm weary of spelling everything out for you.
and.. if I may use selective quoting (as you love to do):
"I don't mind being wrong."
Thats obvious. Thanks for your time. I would respond to other posts that we are on opposing sides but quite frankly I dont have the time. Be sure to tally me up as another successful non-atheist that you have smashed, despite the fact that you have failed quite successfully in being A) reasonable and B) Victorious in your efforts. Please take heed to this though.
An atheist is truly rational when he realizes his stance himself, rather than being force fed it.
Goodbye Sapient,
Remember the BREW
Siggghhhh... Another one who seems to consider Atheism a religion. I heard another explanation - we have all heard that Atheism is a religion like bald is a hairstyle. Baseball, Football, Hocky, Basketball, Soccer, etc are all sports. Say you choose not to play any sport. Is your non-participation a sport?
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You know that’s kinda like saying I have to have a belief if I lack a belief in santa...
I think he thinks that in order to lack a belief you must have a negative belief of it. As in you either a person believes in god or the believe there is no god. I guess this just goes back to what does atheist mean...
It has changed how I'll answer the "What is your religious belief?" I'll say, "I'm anti-theist about most gods, but atheist about all of them." That should start clearing up confusion from the get go...
You know though if you really wants to aruge what is and isn't a word you could point out that it changes citing 'Doh' and 'Truthyness'
I'll come back to this statement in a moment.
It doesn't sound illogical at all.
So, not believing in something is a belief, thanks for clearing that up.
Now, the next section is all directly related and shows you to be dishonest in discussion and not willing to actually debate an issue honestly...
I asked you to show me to be wrong by showing me where I said it was a dictionary verifiable word....
Right, so in other words I didn't say it, you used a strawman fallacy, and I wasn't wrong. I also took time to note that there are other words that are used that aren't in dictionaries, that are understood within their specific fields.
Yes, it is obvious dumbass, as I just said it. What isn't obvious to you, is that you still didn't prove me wrong.
Bullshit... there are plenty of irrational atheists who have realized their stance themselves... there's something you probably would've never expected me to say.
As a result of your dishonesty in debate, and expressing that this was your last post, we have decided to help keep you honest and have blocked your account from posting. Should you want it reinstated a letter sent to us would be a good start.
You'll probably be forgotten by tommorrow, you're a dime a dozen. Closed minds like yours are the majority.
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It's his last post whether he wanted it to be or not!
http://www.christianforums.com
I found this website. The members actually do accumulate blessings.
ex. Christian Babe has 1258 but Soldier for Christ only has 577.
I am just as confused on this blessing idea. For that matter, when I sneeze, people say "bless you" because as I understand it when you sneeze your heart stops beating for that second and you "die" and so if you don't want satan to come take your soul someone has to say "God Bless You" real quick in order to avoid the devil taking over your body/soul. Maybe no one blessed me enough when I sneezed and now the devil's got me. Maybe it's not me talking but the devil herself.
(joking, sensitive people)
I have a question for christians on that matter. Is the devil's skin red? Or does he look like normal but with a goatee? Does Jesus really look like an ex-member of the BeeGees?
No, he looks more like Eazy-E from when NWA was started.
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Yeah, I do like him better this way :
:
I thought he would look more middle eastern at least from where all this stuff came from.
Now what would be interesting is to find a myth that mirrors jesus' from asia and pre-dates it then you could say jesus could look like that.