Reminds me of the outcry amongst the whiny literary types when Newton conclusively proved that rainbows were caused by diffracted light and not as proof of a covenant with God.

That's what gets to me about religion.

It demans man to the point that its followers forget or ignore just how important human beings are and what they bring to the party that is life and the world. 

True, music is "waves with purpose". So if we have no purpose, we are just molecules. Can that purpose come from within ourselves? If so, what is our purpose after we have died?

I think you (and other people) are important.  But, I ask, what is our importance past the boundaries of our lives? 

I disagree -- music doesn't inherenly hold purpose -- we PERCEIVE it that way. Just because certain frequencies sound pleasing to our ears when played concurrently doesn't mean that the frequencies themselves are somehow driven to be pleasing -- we SELECT the frequencies and rhythms that we liked, that are effective, and AVOID those which are less pleasing. Go to a new piano-player's recital then go hear a seasoned professional play -- same instrument, same frequencies, different auditory response.

 Similarly - our molecules don't inherently hold purpose. Our sentience, our thought processes, we attribute purpose unto ourselves and our actions (and the actions of others). When a community of organisms evolve slightly, they aren't thinking "What we really need are some organisms that are a little more fitting to our environment" -- the just reproduce and the organisms that are better fitted survive longer and reproduce more. (Sort of like business product mixes -- product lines that are more successful such as Cherry Pepsi outlive those with are less successful such as Crystal Pepsi)

Show me there's something past the boubdaries of our lives. Or are you too heavenly minded to be of earthly good? 

The Bible says it is given to man once to die, then comes judgment. Some to the judgment of eternal life with God, some to the lake of fire.

But I'm sure you've heard that

What do you think?

I think the Bible was written by men to flesh out the gods they created (yes I used the plural intentionally).

That doesn't show me anything more than what the writers believed would happen (according to the system they built).

Ophios - sorry I contributed in the thread jacking. As one of those guys that hangs out with musicians (a drummer ), I agree with you. Referring to music as "just sound waves" and to humans as "just molecules" cheapens the players and the listeners, reducing them to automatons and neglecting their worthwhile contributions..  

I disagree that it cheapens their contributions --

Music *IS* just sound waves and humans ARE just a coheisve and discrete collection of molecules. But that doesn't make either of them any less moving, powerful, or influential. A hammer is "just a tool made of metal and wood" but when wielded well, it can be instrumental in producing some amazing structures.

The beauty of music isn't inherently the sound -- it's the way it's played and the composition of the notes and frequencies. It doesn't matter that it's "just a soundwave" any more than a rainbow being "just a diffraction of light" isn't any less neat-looking or DNA synthesis being "just a series of chemical reactions" isn't any less amazing.

I personally don't see the problem.  What's so bad about being "just molecules"?

It is a question of purpose.  Some people want their lives have some meaning beyond themselves and the people they know.

Sadly, the material reality is that nothing has any meaning.  Eventually, everthing everywhere will die.

That's why each individual creates their own purpose. That or they stop living their current life and concentrate on living their belief in the life hereafter.

Ok, I woefully misunderstood your point.

I thought you were looking at it from the view of "We're just a collection of molecules so why bother appreciating things." Those are the folks that I (and I think Ophios) are annoyed by.

Thanks for the clarification 

As a Christian, I have certainly stopped living my life for myself.  But, it has given me "life more abundant" (not necessarily good, but certainly interesting .  That is the paradox, those who hold grasp ing onto their lives will lose them; those who give their lives to God will gain all.

Some people want a lot of things.

Life is still worth living, even without an ultimate purpose.

Yes. We're doomed. Out of the countless eons of the universe's existence, for one brief moment, the elements have taken the form of conscious beings who can contemplate their own existence. In yet another brief moment, all this senseless beauty will be so much space dust, and the universe will continue on its meaningless way.

Crank some music and have a twinkie. It's all good.

Mmm, twinkies... oh, er, Yes.  This is "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." 

Funny - the christians wind up just as dead as the atheists. Where's the gain again? 

Oh yeah - that unprovable afterlife.

The more I try to figure this out the less sense it makes. Is that why you guys have faith - so you don't think about how strange it all is?

Me - I know that this life is all I have - I can't hold onto it, it's going to leave one day at a time. I figure that I'll live it as well as I can and maybe even help a few people along the way. That seems better than giving it to the god that I can only hope is the real one.

Sure, I'll die.  But where I used to be afraid of death, now I don't mind (not that I am eager to die   "Faith" has gotten pretty bent out of shape.  The word is better translated "trust".  Trust that God keeps His promises.

You can know the God of the Bible is the only true God.  It starts with understanding who He is, and who you are. 

I'm not afraid to die, and I'm an atheist.

I live my life in a manner as fulfilling as possible, and while I certainly don't WANT to die (I happen to enjoy being around my family), I'm not afraid of what will happen when I do.

 Here's something to think about:

What about all the people that died before Christianity was invented? The Council of Nicea didn't meet until the early AD years (300 AD? somewhere around there) and before then there was no formal Christian religion. Is it straight to limbo (which I think the Catholic church recently decided didn't exist -- which puzzles me that a bunch of humans can just willy-nilly decide whether or not a supernatural plane exists or not)

The idea of an afterlife and cosmic sorting of "good" and "bad" people is just silly (or even "saved" and "unsaved&quot.  

I gave up being afraid of death a while ago - cancer does that.

Understanding who he is or who the writers of the Bible and the clergy say he is?

I already know who I am in God's eyes - I checked out the Bible and the hymnals. I don't know if I want to live loathing myself that much. 

To some extent, it is good to be afraid to die.  Death is the price of sin (disobeying God).  It is our fear of death that turns us to God.  Make sure that you have not disabled your inner understanding of God to break this fear... 

The Bible says there is none good.  So the sorting is pretty easy

Salvation (before or after Christ) comes from agreeing with God that we have broken His law, and trusting in Him for salvation.  Before Christ, this was revealed through the Hebrew people's concept of "messiah".  Christ was this messiah, so now we say there is no "way" but through Christ.

I'm not sure you meant literally what you said above, but it looks like you're saying that death is the result of disobeying God. So if I never disobey God, then I never die? What about "pious" people who are killed by others? I *think* what you may have meant is "death of the soul"? But please clarify.

I don't have an inner understanding of God because I don't believe he exists! There is not "disabling of [my] inner understanding" and this isn't a pride issue. Perhaps it was *your* fear of death that turned you to god, but myself, and others I know disbelieve in God and are unafraid of death.

Awesome. So by believing in your god I have to admit that I am somehow inherently a corrupt individual?

Bulltihs.

I feel sorry for the people who believe their greatest accomplishments were only possible through God's hand, and that they themselves weren't capable of it. Humans are capable of some pretty phenomenal things when we are determined, and it's a shame that religion tries to convince us otherwise. 

Where are the moderators when you need one? Proselytizing on here is almost rampant. You, nedbrek, can stop now. We're all well aware of what the bible reports on most things and you are not a teacher we wish to have. We don't want your salvation and we don't want you telling us about it, or how we can obtain it or what the specifics are of it. Leave off it!

edit: Proselytizing is against the rules nedbrek, so stop. 

Terribly sorry.  I was aware of that on "Freethinkers Anonymous".  Does that apply in the blogs area?  (Surely it doesn't include "Atheist vs. Theist"...)

There is a line beyween discussing and preaching - I think you may have crossed it. 

I see.  Hopefully, I will get the hang of it  

I leave for a bit and suddenly a brazillion replies, hold on.