The official RRS defeats Way of the Master thread
Offline This is it. This is the official thread that Kelly and Sapient will try to interact with as many visitors as they can. If you are new here, welcome aboard. If viewing this from the homepage you can click the title of the thread, create an account, and post your comments. Kelly and Sapient will not have time to address all the email and would like to keep all of their exchanges public for the benefit of the readers who are curious. Soon we will have a downloadable document available right from this post that will expose as many arguments as we can expose from the ABC Nightline Face Off with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Here are the highlights of the face off from our eyes...
Did we make mistakes in the full debate? Yes. We stumbled on a few words, made an inaccurate point or two, and made a weak point at a moment or two. Ironically our worst points still seemed to be too much for them. So while we welcome criticism, especially constructive, please keep in mind that we feel we have a good handle on what we did wrong. We'll grow, learn, and get better. What we're really hoping for in this thread is for the actual content and discussion about gods existence to be brought into question. Challenge us to continue, and we will continue to respond to your claims. If you are a theist, please feel free to post your scientific evidence for God, leaving out the miserable arguments that Ray Comfort has already been beaten on of course. If you are having trouble finding the video on ABCs website, you can find most/all of the videos here. DIGG it.
A thread on our message board that has links to the entire unedited debate.
Other threads of interest:
Nightline Editing Bias - The Supporting Data
Gregfl starts a thread about Bashirs big blunder and the Nightline portrayal.
Some of the Christian mail coming in [YOU RESPOND] about the debate.
Pertaining to Jesus Mythicism A thorough examination of the evidence for Jesus by Rook Hawkins
A Silence That Screams - (No contemporary historical accounts for "jesus) by Todangst
Video from Rook outlining the basics of Jesus Mythicism
UPDATE Sapient spoke with ABC and voiced concerns leveled by many atheists in the community that the editing job for the Nightline piece gave Ray and Kirk a free pass. The most commonly voiced criticism of ABC was that it managed to show the debate as somewhat even and that there was no clear victor. This discussion was accepted only under the understanding that Ray and Kirk would prove God exists without invoking faith or the Bible. Anyone that understood the format saw that Ray and Kirk failed at their premise as soon as the proof of God became the Ten Commandments. ABC was made aware that commentary like "It was difficult to know if either side could claim victory" gave the impression that they were pandering to their largely Christian audience. While Sapient understood that this may be a wise business move, it was noted that it wasn't an accurate representation of the discussion. The Rational Response Squad brought it's "B" game and still destroyed every claim Kirk and Ray threw at them. In more positive news, we were made aware that the ABC unedited video of the debate was viewed over 160,000 times in the first 12 hours. Hopefully a few people have found the strength to overcome their god delusion.
AND THE PWNAGE CONTINUES:
THE FULL DEBATE!
EXPOSE OF POST DEBATE CHATTER AND BEHIND THE SCENES INFORMATION
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
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Support this or shut up.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
The ARTIFICIAL ROCK is Formed, it is produced through the process of manufacturing.
The NATURAL ROCK is Formed, it is produced through the process of EROSION.
All things Form-ed require a Form-er.
EROSION and Manufacturing are the “process” of Formation, Therefore they can not be the Former.
The Former of the ARTICIFIAL ROCK is Man.
The Former of the NATURAL ROCK is God.
The NATURAL ROCK exists, therefore God exists.
Their you go Brother Tilberion, I supported it with Logic, something of which you have Zilch.
zilch /zɪltʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[zilch] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–noun Slang. zero; nothing: The search came up with zilch.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Now Tilberian, please try and hold on to any integrity you have left, Please step aside and allow Cult Leader Sapient to respond to My argument, as we have all seen that you have Zilch Logic.
in·teg·ri·ty /ɪnˈtɛgrɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-teg-ri-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Support this or shut up.
All you are posting here is naked assertion. You have no evidence whatsoever that God is responsible for natural processes. Using your methods, we might just as well say that the former of the rock is a pink unicorn.
You want Sapient to respond? Your arguments are going to have to get a lot better than that.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Ahhh ok so you now say that this is true
The Former of the NATURAL ROCK is PINK UNICORN
weird you are going to have to support your theory that the PINK UNICORN created the universe as you are asserting, i am not asserting that, I am saying that GOD did it, here is the definition of God in case you missed it, please will you show me the definition of this PINK UNICORN that Fromed the universe, it must be very powerful.
GodA being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.
Now please show me the definition of Pink Unicorns, is it in the dictionary? where did you get it?
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Again Tilberian, Step Aside Kindly.
Cult Leader Sapient Please step forward and defend your Logic of this Website, it is under Direct Attack by Jesus Christ, you better Defend it well, because Jesus Christ was Set as the Almighty God of the Universe as he was deemed worthy through his Sacrifice.
Your Stronghold has Crumbled before My eyes.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Oh I see, in order for something to exist, all you have to be able to do is define it? Wow, that's easy...
Pink Unicorn n 1. The all-powerful creator of everything. 2. The being that made rocks look the way they look. 3. A little plastic toy in my daughter's closet. 4. The owner of Theist's ass. 5. An off-red creature with a big freaking horn on its forehead.
Where did I get my definition? Straight out of my ass - THE SAME PLACE YOU GOT YOUR DEFINITION OF GOD.
Er, well, you got it out of your ass is what I mean...
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Now you think you're Jesus?
Come to think of it, why hasn't Jesus smitten Sapient for his evil website? Does he want people to be led astray?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
There are no dictionary entries for pink unicorn, but pink, unicorn are spelled correctly.
as we can all see tilberian has been made aware of his delusion, he is claiming that the former of the universe is a pink unicorn and it does not even exist, as you can see if you go look it up, no definition, i tried, couldnt find it, sorry buddy,
now please piss off (Kindly, As I love you as my Flesh and Blood Brother) and let me debate Sapient so we can get on with the dismantling of this horrid website.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
When did I say I was Jesus Christ, he Died and Rose from the dead and now Sits at the Right hand of God, in the Realm of the Air.
I am a Man, a Man who Followed Christ where he lead me, he leads the War I am waging on you Right now, he is my King and My Saviour, he is the Commander of the Army upon the Forces of Darkness.
Seek Him and you too can have Logic.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
im gonna go mess around with my fantasy baseball team, this argument with tilberian is vexing, and quite pointless cause tilberion has no logic and it gets very redundant when speaking to him, ill check back later with you all, please go over what is written and use your mind to understand.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Thank you for confirming that pink and unicorn are both in the dictionary. Since pink is an adjective and unicorn is a noun, there is certainly no logical violation in talking about a pink unicorn. In fact, I'm looking at one right now! It's rather small and made of plastic, but I'm sure that if it wanted to it could create a universe any old time it wanted to.
Is that all you got, Theist? Because right now your God has no more support as creator of the universe than a pink unicorn. In fact, the pink unicorn has more, because I can see and feel the pink unicorn, which you can't do with your imaginary God.
For those of you scoring at home the score is - PU: 1 God: 0
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
You said it right in the line I quoted! You said JC was attacking the site, but the only one I see attacking the site is you. therefore, you must think your JC. Which would surprise no one.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Bye Theist! And while you're lost in yet another fantasy world, don't forget to look for some support for your naked, unproven assertion that things which are formed need a "former." I'll be waiting.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Ahahahahahahaha LOL Jesus: When zombies attack!
If ever I can be characterized as an "angry atheist" it's when confronted with displays of such stubborn, wilful ignorance and magical thinking from anyone over the age of 13.
{edit for my jacked up bbcode}
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
No i did not get the Definition for God from my ASS, I got it from the dictionary where all sane people should get their definitions, you on the otherhand just make definitions up out of thin air because you are an idiot, I am done with you, you are my brother in the flesh but you are a total moron, you remind me of a chimpanzee trying to understand algebra, everyone that is sane can see the truth, that you are incompetant as you make yourself out to be, If Sapient wants to challenge me I will be watching, otherwise I will not respond to any of you slowbies, maya and tilberion especially as they will go to the ends of the earth to defend their idiocy.
So Sapient I am waiting and Watching, Me and Jesus Christ, What will you say now, I look forward to speaking with you.
And just for clarification I also am a Muslim and a Jew and a Bahai, Jesus Christ is Lord over all religions, he orchestrated them all to set up the Glorious Ending for God, a perfect story, like spider man and whatnot.
till next time , peace my loved ones.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
The emphasized words in the first two definitions don't do much for your assertion that the existence of a dictionary definition necessarily makes the thing exist. Concepts and beliefs don't make a thing exist, no matter how many people insist that this particular concept they believe in exists simply because so many of them believe it does.
Good thing, too. I live in Hollywood... the place would be infested with goddamned Vampires, Elves, Aliens and every other sort of fantasy character!
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
it is not a prayer Assault, I pray to Jesus Christ not to you guys, It is a LOGICAL ASSAULT, I am dropping LOGICAL BOMBS, My Amphibious LOGICAL ASSAULT TEAM is at the ready to infiltrate and DESTROY the LIES of the DEVIL that you have been entranced with.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
It is not the DEFINITION that makes something TRUE, it is the ARGUMENT supported by DEFINITIONS, REMEBER the ARGUMENT that I laid out for SAPIENT to reply to.
You all have no LOGIC, look up thr words meaning, you have Zilch.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
God is defined in the dictionary. Unicorns are defined in the dictionary. Why, according to you, does one exist and the other one doesn't?
BTW, it might interest you to know that the dictionary is not the ultimate arbiter of what is real in the universe.
But I'm not done with you. Not by a long shot.
Yes, you're doing a great job of convincing the sane people with your torrent of insults. Keep 'em coming, jackass, your hole just keeps getting deeper.
Getting into a debate with Sapient is obviously your wet dream, because just by getting the guy to respond your credibility would increase about a thousand times (check that, what's a thousand times zero?) Let's put it this way, Theist - a debate with Sapient would look great on your CV. A debate with you would look like a coffee stain on his.
So far you haven't even forced me to think once. If you think this is the ends of the earth, your horizons are too short by about thirty miles.
More begging? Here's a thimble to put your dignity in.
JC is a close pal of yours, huh? Who else ya got in there, Napleon?
"Please Mr. Sapient, I'm begging you to talk to me and give meaning to my life." I guess those theistic habits die hard, always looking for someone else to make sense of things for you.
Nothing like spreading yourself around to make real sure you're completely wrong. What you've done, Theist, is put yourself in a position where absolutely NO ONE will agree with you. How's life on the island? Pretty comfortable, I'm sure, but you must be getting tired of telling yourself the same old stories over and over.
Yes, exactly like Spider Man. Fictitious.
Every time you say this, you show just how meaningless the word love is to you. You don't love us. You don't even know us.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
God is defined in the dictionary. Unicorns are defined in the dictionary. Why, according to you, does one exist and the other one doesn't?
Indeed both of them are defined in the dictionary, Let us compare Each definition and decide which one makes more sense for the Creator and Author of the Universal Order.
God
/gɒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[god] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, god·ded, god·ding, interjection
–nounOr do you Say that this UNICORN created and ordered the universe?
u·ni·corna former gold coin of Scotland, first issued by James III in 1486, having an obverse bearing the figure of a unicorn.
Anyone reading can clearly tell which one created the universe, and which one my argument is based on.
BTW, it might interest you to know that the dictionary is not the ultimate arbiter of what is real in the universe.
Indeed it doesnt, Arguments like the one I have stated many times that you can not refute prove realities, maybe you are capable of learning.
Yes, you're doing a great job of convincing the sane people with your torrent of insults. Keep 'em coming, jackass, your hole just keeps getting deeper.
Sorry that you feel insulted by my observations, but when people defy Logic their is only one conclusion to make, it means they do not possess the proper reasoning power to understand concepts, the concepts are "above their head" so to speak, i am sorry that you were insulted I'll try not to hurt your feelings again brother.
Nothing like spreading yourself around to make real sure you're completely wrong. What you've done, Theist, is put yourself in a position where absolutely NO ONE will agree with you. How's life on the island? Pretty comfortable, I'm sure, but you must be getting tired of telling yourself the same old stories over and over.
I am not looking for people to agree with me, I only do that which Jesus Christ leads me to do, tell the truth, I can not help it that you can not understand that the Lord Almighty Jesus Christ is the Author of all religions, its just the way it is, All religions are here for the purpose of Glorifying God, All of them have a part in the plan of the Redemption of Mankind.
Every time you say this, you show just how meaningless the word love is to you. You don't love us. You don't even know us.
You do not have Jesus Christ so you would not understand, when you have Jesus Christ you feel the love he fealt when he went to the Cross and was Crucified for all of mankind, it is Love for All humans regardless of who they are or what they do (without judgement), I love all people, they all have part in the plan of Gods Glory and the Redemption, so yes I do Love you as my Brother Tilberion, but since you do not have Christ you can not understand this powerful concept.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Good. Now we have dispensed with your nonsense that God exists and created the universe because he appears in the dictionary. Do you have any other support for your assertion that formed things must be formed by a personal being, or can we now agree that your line of reasoning in defence of God is dead?
Newsflash for ya: Islam doesn't agree that JC is the Lord Almighty of anything. He's a second-class prophet and not fit to wipe Mohommand's ass.
Bahai also doesn't elevate JC above Mohommad, Buddha or a dozen other religious thinkers.
So in claiming that JC is somehow special, you are blaspheming directly against two of the religions you claim to follow.
Now tell me again who doesn't understand religion?
What a bunch of crap. You don't know me, therefore you don't love me. You are a liar and a hypocrit.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Good. Now we have dispensed with your nonsense that God exists and created the universe because he appears in the dictionary. Do you have any other support for your assertion that formed things must be formed by a personal being, or can we now agree that your line of reasoning in defence of God is dead?
That was nevar my "nonsense", the argument that you have not refuted is the "sense" that I am using, I am sorry that you still do not understand that Forms require Formers, in the case of the Universe as I have Proven with my argument, the Universal Former is God.
Newsflash for ya: Islam doesn't agree that JC is the Lord Almighty of anything. He's a second-class prophet and not fit to wipe Mohommand's ass.
Bahai also doesn't elevate JC above Mohommad, Buddha or a dozen other religious thinkers.
So in claiming that JC is somehow special, you are blaspheming directly against two of the religions you claim to follow.
Now tell me again who doesn't understand religion?
In the Case of Islam, indeed it say this of Jesus Christ in the Quran.
1. He is the Messiah, go look up the definition of Messiah.
2. Allah Allows intercession by his permission.
3. Jesus Christ will return at the End of the Age (in the Quran) along with the Mahdi (Mahdi is spoken of in the traditional Holy text not the Quran, it is much like the Talmud for the Jews), to bring peace to the World.
I can not be held accountable for Muslims who ignore facts about their own Holy Text, I can only let Jesus Christ Lead me to the truth.
In the Case of Bahai, I have only read portions of their Holy Texts, but what I did read has the Fingerprints of Jesus Christ all over it, now that you speak of it I will obtain a Copy of the Holy Text and start De-Ciphering it, thank you Brother.
What a bunch of crap. You don't know me, therefore you don't love me. You are a liar and a hypocrit
I do not need to "know" you personally to Love you, I only need to "know" what you are, a Creation by the Loving God, therefore I know that I indeed do Love you.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
This is what Islam says about Jesus Christ.
They call him this, Messiah.
Mes·si·ah
/mɪˈsaɪ
ə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mi-sahy-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–nounFrom God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Also I just wanted to make you aware of something that even the most devout Muslim completely Ignores, The Quran states that the Bible is a "Light" and a Holy Book, yet muslims refuse to read it and say it is "corrupt", their ignorance keeps them from the Holy Knowledge contained in the Bible.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
And as you Can see what it states at the very last book (the very Last Sentence before the New Testement) of ther Old Testement, it says this.
5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.” [3]
Obviously Jesus Christ did not "turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers"
the Jews (Well I mean God Killed him, As God Set Everything up to proccess the Redemption of All Mankind) instead Killed Christ, therefore God sent a Holy Anathema, "I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction"
The Quran is a Holy Decree of Utter Destruction as you can obviously See.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
If forms require former, wouldn't god require a former and wouldn't god's former require a former? You have an infinite regression here. The only escape of this regression is to say some form didn't require a former. As far as evidence goes we know the universe exists we can see/taste/smell/touch/hear it. Why can't the matter/energy be the that which has no former? At least we have evidence it exists.
The Universe is a Closed System, God is outside of the Universe, the Sciecne of the Universe is obviously Differant then the Science of God, God Formed from a Single point, When he projected His first thought it was realized and Jesus Christ who is Logic was Born, through Jesus Christ God formed the Universe, If you can show me Something Within this Universe which just "appeared" and was not Formed in Some way, sceintifically I might add, then I will concede, But as we all know, Nothing Just appears out of nowhere in "this Universe", To speculate upon a realm that we have nevar experienced, the Realm outisde the Closed system of the universe, is complete foolishness, as we do not know the Rules and Laws that govern outside of this Closed System.
And also if you can belive that the Universe had a beggining, the "big bang Theory" which has much evidence to support it, why can you not belive that God has a beggining, formed from a Big Bang, its the same thing, Why can you beleive in the Big bang of the universe and not the "big bang" of God.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Still no proof, still no support for your argument, still nothing but naked assertion, again and again. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it true, Theist. I have given you a specific example of a form that does not require a former and you still have no answer. Are you ever going to present this wonderful, logical proof that you claim to possess?
The Koran is quite clear that Mohommad is the Latter Prophet who speaks with the voice of Allah. Any Muslim that follows JC (or any other prophet or god) instead of Mohommad is an apostate and must be killed. That's in the Koran, too, Theist. If you are a Muslim, you better go out in the back yard and stone yourself to death, because you are worse than an infidel in the eyes of Allah.
I'm trying to think of how anyone could be more ignorant than to come on an atheist website claiming intellectual high ground, then end up taking lessons in their own religion from the atheists there. On the other hand I shouldn't be surprised...it happens here all the time.
Yes, you do need to know me personally in order to love me. Look up love in the dictionary, since you are so fond of definitions.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
We don't know this for sure.
This is a meaningless, incoherent statement. Where is God, then?
Support this or shut up. You can start by showing evidence for the existence of this "different science."
How can you possibly know this? Support it or shut up.
Are you just making this up as you type? Show me where, except in your mind, it is written that JC is logic.
So JC was formed before the universe? That's an interesting trick. Where was JC born then? And, again, please support this wild assertion with some kind of support from any religious tradition anywhere.
Why? Matter or energy appearing out of nowhere would be a startling violation of physics that would be nothing short of miraculous. If anything, such an event would support belief in God.
And yet to claim to have all sorts of information about this wonderful place! To wit, that God is there and that he's operating under different rules than we do.
Because the Big Bang is necessary to explain the events immediately following the beginning of the universe. God is not.
BTW Theist, I know your delusions of grandeur cause you to think of everything you type as Holy Writ, but even so it really isn't necessary to Capitalize Every Third Word You Type.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
This is an interesting couple of items. IMO
Just 'appeared'-? Scientifiically-Proven-?
Hmmmmm,........ Conceed-?
Creation ex nihilo - Without God (1997)
Mark I. Vuletic
Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things - perhaps even the entire universe - can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes.
This document is an attempt to compile quotes that explain how all of this is supposed to work.
Eventually, I would like to write an article assessing the value of quantum vacuum fluctuations as a means of producing universes, but for the time being, I will just let the scientists speak for themselves and leave evaluation to the reader.
Vacuum Fluctuations and Virtual Particles
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html
http://tinyurl.com/9codk
Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence?
Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics?
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?chanID=sa005&articleID=0004D0F8-772A-1526-B72A83414B7F0000&topicID=13
http://tinyurl.com/yr99lf
One more site, with links to experimental data.
http://www.vacuumfluctuations.com/
Still no proof, still no support for your argument, still nothing but naked assertion, again and again. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it true, Theist. I have given you a specific example of a form that does not require a former and you still have no answer. Are you ever going to present this wonderful, logical proof that you claim to possess?
No you gave me no example of an unformed form becasue they do not exist. You showed me a Rock which is formed by the proccess of erosion, the former is God.
The Koran is quite clear that Mohommad is the Latter Prophet who speaks with the voice of Allah. Any Muslim that follows JC (or any other prophet or god) instead of Mohommad is an apostate and must be killed. That's in the Koran, too, Theist. If you are a Muslim, you better go out in the back yard and stone yourself to death, because you are worse than an infidel in the eyes of Allah.
I read the quran, it says lots of good things about christians and that they are believers, not one time does it say that if you follow jesus christ will you have to be killed, sorry you are dead wrong. And jesus is not just a prophet, he is messiah (in the quran), muslims forget that to understand the word of god you need both the bible and the quran, what messiah is, is explained in the bible, so in actuality, when you follow jesus who is messiah, who is God, you follow Jesus and you are following God.
I'm trying to think of how anyone could be more ignorant than to come on an atheist website claiming intellectual high ground, then end up taking lessons in their own religion from the atheists there. On the other hand I shouldn't be surprised...it happens here all the time.
I claim it becasue I have it, and it is silly, athiests are so puffed up with pride and conceit I knew exactly the kind of reception i would receive here, it does not halter me or Jesus Christ who is my King and Leader and God.
Yes, you do need to know me personally in order to love me. Look up love in the dictionary, since you are so fond of definitions.
love
/lʌv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[luhv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, loved, lov·ing.
–nounFrom God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
We don't know this for sure.
OK, thats fine with me, we will go on what we do know.
This is a meaningless, incoherent statement. Where is God, then?
God is in the realm of the Air, above the Realm of the Water, which is above the Realm of the Fire, which is above the Realm of the Earth, where we exist.
How can you possibly know this? Support it or shut up
Take the ten sephiroth Diagram, overlay the trinity at the Top, then overlay the first 8 elements (with hydrogen in place of the Holy Spirit) of the periodic table on the bottom 8 sephiroth, this is how I know this. Also you must understand pythagoras 10 number pyramid, which is then underliad below the ten sephiroth to show the realms.
So JC was formed before the universe? That's an interesting trick. Where was JC born then? And, again, please support this wild assertion with some kind of support from any religious tradition anywhere.
oh really thats wierd, let me show you something;
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made
first chapter of the new testement, obviously u have nevar even read the bible.
Why? Matter or energy appearing out of nowhere would be a startling violation of physics that would be nothing short of miraculous. If anything, such an event would support belief in God.
The universe doesnt violate the laws God ordained for it, this is exaclty why you can not show me an form that is not formed. Unless of course God chooses to change the settings on the factory with his ultimate power, such as raising christ from the dead and all the other miracles in the bible which are true.
And yet to claim to have all sorts of information about this wonderful place! To wit, that God is there and that he's operating under different rules than we do.
Indeed.
Because the Big Bang is necessary to explain the events immediately following the beginning of the universe. God is not.
BTW Theist, I know your delusions of grandeur cause you to think of everything you type as Holy Writ, but even so it really isn't necessary to Capitalize Every Third Word You Type.
Ahh so now you are just making things up becasue they are nessacary to explain something? sounds like what you accuse religious people of doing, how strange, how the tables have turned.
I will type how I like, If you do not want to read it or respond, i would be grateful, as you are trying to break through a wall of Logic with a hammer of ignorance, and lets just say it is not possible, i joke with my brothers and indeed you are my brother in the flesh, so I will joke with you, you are like the energizer bunny of ignorance, you just keep going and going and going, but i still love you brother.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
many modern physicists claim that things - perhaps even the entire universe - can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes.
thats some nice claims, apparently you have no idea what you are talking about as you then direct me somewhere else to find the information, why not just lay it out for me right here? oh i forgot, casue you dont know what your talking about.
Nice Try Sophist.
I love you Brother, even though you are not very smart.
THOUGHTFUL EDIT
(i apologize Dug, i was still in the mindset of speaking with king rudeness teilberion, i had no right to be rude to you, i am sorry, your opinion is very valid indeed, I will look at the sites maybe later to see whats so interesting about it to you, thanks for pointing it out brother.)
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
I wasn't giving you an example of an unformed form. I was giving you an example of a form that was not created by any intelligent "former." Since your whole "logical" argument rests on your assertion that anything which is formed requires a former, it is refuted.
Muslims are told again and again in the Koran to kill anyone who does not accept its words and follow the path of Islam. Followers of JC are in this camp because they do not recognize Mohommad as a prophet of God. You have a duty as a Muslim to kill Christians.
Your reception here has perfectly reflected the quality of your arguments and your rude attempts to proselytize here.
You'll note the emphasis on a personal relationship throughout all those definitions. Better come up with a different word for what you feel toward me because love ain't it.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Answer the question. WHERE IS GOD?
None of this points to anything. It is perfectly meaningless. Support your assertions about the nature of God or shut up.
You better point to me where in that verse it mentions God creating JC, because as I recall it doesn't happen until a long, long time farther in.
So the laws of the universe don't apply to God. That's cool. So now please explain why the miserable prick allows evil to exist.
You moron. You didn't even understand the point, did you? Let's see if you can follow this - it's your own argument:
1. God is outside the universe.
2. We can have no knowledge of things which are outside the universe.
3. This guy called Theist knows a bunch of stuff about God.
Do you see any problem with this, professor?
You can't point to any time that I have done this. I dare you to try. Double dare you.
Hey, go nuts. I'm just trying to save you from looking like an idiot, but it's quite a bit too late for that anyway.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Eh, don't worry about it theist, we all make mistakes.
Check out the links and see that things DO 'appear out of nowhere', in THIS universe. LOL
Creation ex nihilo - Without God (1997)
Mark I. Vuletic
Few people are aware of the fact that many modern physicists claim that things - perhaps even the entire universe - can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes. This document is an attempt to compile quotes that explain how all of this is supposed to work.
Eventually, I would like to write an article assessing the value of quantum vacuum fluctuations as a means of producing universes, but for the time being, I will just let the scientists speak for themselves and leave evaluation to the reader.
Vacuum Fluctuations and Virtual Particles
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html
http://tinyurl.com/9codk
Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence?
Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics?
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?chanID=sa005&articleID=0004D0F8-772A-1526-B72A83414B7F0000&topicID=13
http://tinyurl.com/yr99lf
I wasn't giving you an example of an unformed form. I was giving you an example of a form that was not created by any intelligent "former." Since your whole "logical" argument rests on your assertion that anything which is formed requires a former, it is refuted.
So you possess knowledge of the former of the Rock? God formed the Rock, what or who do you say formed the rock, becasue erosion is a proccess therefore it can not be the former, go read what a proccess is, proccesses are implemented by formers, everything that is formed requires a former tilberion, it is a fact, like i said you can not show me a form that does not have a former, therefore it is not refuted.
Muslims are told again and again in the Koran to kill anyone who does not accept its words and follow the path of Islam. Followers of JC are in this camp because they do not recognize Mohommad as a prophet of God. You have a duty as a Muslim to kill Christians.
Like I said, i am not accountable for ignorant muslims who ignore the entire bible and the teaching of their own messiah jesus christ, what a muslim says and what the Quran says are two totally differant things, compare it to the crusades, what the pope was saying was not what the bible said, the pope corrupted the Logos of God to serve his evil purposes, much like imams do today, as God ordained it for the redemption of mankind.
Your reception here has perfectly reflected the quality of your arguments and your rude attempts to proselytize here.
My reception is alligned with how much you fear the truth as it will invade upon your own created world that you live in, i am not evangilizing, i have come to the only place that will accept the truth at this point in time, if i take this true knowledge to religious folk, they will call me the devil.
You'll note the emphasis on a personal relationship throughout all those definitions. Better come up with a different word for what you feel toward me because love ain't it.
Trust me brother, I have much love for you, even if you can not fathom the concept of universal love, it still exists, Jesus exhibited it on the Cross.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Answer the question. WHERE IS GOD?
As i said before, The Father still exists in the single point at the top of the ten sephiroth diagram, in the realm of the air, The Father set the Son Jesus Christ as God of the Universe as he was deemed worthy through his sacrifice. The Son, or God Jesus Christ is at the Right hand Of Power, In the Realm of the Water.
You better point to me where in that verse it mentions God creating JC, because as I recall it doesn't happen until a long, long time farther in.
The Word Became Flesh
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, [1] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [4] who is at the Father's side, [5] he has made him known.
1. God is outside the universe.
2. We can have no knowledge of things which are outside the universe.
3. This guy called Theist knows a bunch of stuff about God.
I know about God threough entering into marriage with jesus christ, entering the kingdom of God which is inside of us, as stated in the new testement, The kingdom of God is on Earth as it exists inside anyone who enteres into marriage with jesus Christ. The kingdom of Heaven is differant, it is in the realm of the Air, The kingdom of God is how I know all these things, it is our Link to God, like our Umbilical Cord at birth.
You can't point to any time that I have done this. I dare you to try. Double dare you.
here you go, I accept yer double dare.
Tilberian says this,
Because the Big Bang is necessary to explain the events immediately following the beginning of the universe
Hey, go nuts. I'm just trying to save you from looking like an idiot, but it's quite a bit too late for that anyway
any sane person can obviously tell that the opposite of this statement is true.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
perhaps even the entire universe - can indeed arise from nothing via natural processes
Brother Dug, Thank you for the links i am sure they will be very interesting, but let me point something out to you, you said formed by natural procceses, the concept of proccess in itself can not be a former, it is impossible, the way logic works, a former will implement a proccess to produce a certain item or object, this is the natural logic of the universe, think about this for a while and go read the definitions, thank you again for the links when i have time ill check them out, i am sorry agin for being a rude ass to you.
Peace my Brother.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Of COURSE processes can be and are 'formers-!
One quick example, the 'process' of freezing water "forms" icicles,.....or is it the 'icicle-faires'.....LOL
Natural processes 'form' all kinds of things.
Your argument makes no sense. IMO
I have to say that I haven't ever seen any object/s that were 'not' (formed) by natural processes,.....
Have You-?
Something 'formed' by 'unnatural-processes' perhaps-?
Any such thing-?......in THIS universe-?
(I couldn't resist LOL)
proc·ess
/ˈprɒs
ɛs; especially Brit. ˈproʊ
sɛs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pros-es; especially Brit. proh-ses] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural proc·ess·es 
/ˈprɒs
ɛs
ɪz, ‑ə
sɪz, ‑əˌsiz or, especially Brit., ˈproʊ
sɛs‑, ˈproʊ
sə‑/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pros-es-iz, ‑uh-siz, ‑uh-seez or, especially Brit., proh-ses‑, proh-suh‑] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, verb, adjective –noun
Movies. created by or used in process cinematography: a moving background on a process screen.
Now look at the underlined and boldened words, these "actions" are not carried out by the Process themselves but by "Formers" of Procceses.
for·mer1
having once, or previously, been; erstwhile: a former president.
Proccess = Former = FALSE
Former+ Process = Product
= True
The "natural Process" that you are speaking of when water becomes ice cycles is instituted by God, Who else could be the Former of the Process?
Tell me who is the Former of the Process?
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
yes all things were formed by processes, yet who "implemented" the process, all processes need an "implementor"
I am sorry, but you are wrong brother dug.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
form
/fɔrm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawrm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
to take a particular form or arrangement: The ice formed in patches across the window.
As you can see Forms, require an "ordering" who exactly "ordered" the process that Forms Ice cycles, Dug,the Process Forms the Item, but who set forth the Process?
I will wait for your answer.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
It'd be just as valid/invalid to say Zeus was the 'former'. IMO
god-did-it is not a rational answer.
The 'process' 'formed' the icicles,.... right there.
This discussion would be better suited for this forum.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums/sapient/atheist_vs_theist
As we have already defined the fact that Proccess = Former is a Contra-Diction, it can not be true.
do you understand the word Contr-diction?
It is against logic and is not accaptable.
con·tra·dic·tion
/ˌkɒn
trəˈdɪk
ʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuh
n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–nounProcess = Former = False
If you want to continue to defy the Logic of the universe go ahead, but you will always fall into a contradiction.
This can not be true under any circumstances
process= former = False
I am sorry, you are wrong.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
a process existing in or produced by nature (rather than by the intent of human beings); "the action of natural forces"; "volcanic activity"
I know , human beings did not intend it, God did.
God
/gɒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[god] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, god·ded, god·ding, interjection
–nounFrom God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Here is a statement with 0 Zilch, contra-dictions, unlike your statements dug, which fall into contra-dictions, i am sorry that you have been raised with 0 understanding of what Logic is, when you fall into 0 contradictions, now I know that you also are foolosu like tilberian, and will reside in a contra-diction no matter what the evidence against it, you are a fool.
The artificial heart is Formed, it is produced through the process of manufacturing.
The human heart is Formed, it is produced through the process of evolution.
All things Form-ed require a Form-er.
Evolution and Manufacturing are the “process” of Formation, Therefore they can not be the Former.
The Former of the artificial heart is Man.
The Former of the human heart is God.
The Human Heart exists, therefore God exists.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.