The official RRS defeats Way of the Master thread
Offline This is it. This is the official thread that Kelly and Sapient will try to interact with as many visitors as they can. If you are new here, welcome aboard. If viewing this from the homepage you can click the title of the thread, create an account, and post your comments. Kelly and Sapient will not have time to address all the email and would like to keep all of their exchanges public for the benefit of the readers who are curious. Soon we will have a downloadable document available right from this post that will expose as many arguments as we can expose from the ABC Nightline Face Off with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Here are the highlights of the face off from our eyes...
Did we make mistakes in the full debate? Yes. We stumbled on a few words, made an inaccurate point or two, and made a weak point at a moment or two. Ironically our worst points still seemed to be too much for them. So while we welcome criticism, especially constructive, please keep in mind that we feel we have a good handle on what we did wrong. We'll grow, learn, and get better. What we're really hoping for in this thread is for the actual content and discussion about gods existence to be brought into question. Challenge us to continue, and we will continue to respond to your claims. If you are a theist, please feel free to post your scientific evidence for God, leaving out the miserable arguments that Ray Comfort has already been beaten on of course. If you are having trouble finding the video on ABCs website, you can find most/all of the videos here. DIGG it.
A thread on our message board that has links to the entire unedited debate.
Other threads of interest:
Nightline Editing Bias - The Supporting Data
Gregfl starts a thread about Bashirs big blunder and the Nightline portrayal.
Some of the Christian mail coming in [YOU RESPOND] about the debate.
Pertaining to Jesus Mythicism A thorough examination of the evidence for Jesus by Rook Hawkins
A Silence That Screams - (No contemporary historical accounts for "jesus) by Todangst
Video from Rook outlining the basics of Jesus Mythicism
UPDATE Sapient spoke with ABC and voiced concerns leveled by many atheists in the community that the editing job for the Nightline piece gave Ray and Kirk a free pass. The most commonly voiced criticism of ABC was that it managed to show the debate as somewhat even and that there was no clear victor. This discussion was accepted only under the understanding that Ray and Kirk would prove God exists without invoking faith or the Bible. Anyone that understood the format saw that Ray and Kirk failed at their premise as soon as the proof of God became the Ten Commandments. ABC was made aware that commentary like "It was difficult to know if either side could claim victory" gave the impression that they were pandering to their largely Christian audience. While Sapient understood that this may be a wise business move, it was noted that it wasn't an accurate representation of the discussion. The Rational Response Squad brought it's "B" game and still destroyed every claim Kirk and Ray threw at them. In more positive news, we were made aware that the ABC unedited video of the debate was viewed over 160,000 times in the first 12 hours. Hopefully a few people have found the strength to overcome their god delusion.
AND THE PWNAGE CONTINUES:
THE FULL DEBATE!
EXPOSE OF POST DEBATE CHATTER AND BEHIND THE SCENES INFORMATION
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
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This is a letter to Brian Sapient.
Dear Brian,
Hello Brother,
I know that you are a logcial Man, I know this from viewing your videos and listening to your arguments about the nature of the universe. I do not mock you my brother, I know what you say, Logic is our God so to speak, reason, is the truth, Science is knowledge. Brian, Brother, Do not think I am using some sort of emotional Argument against you to protect some sort of belief that I have, this will nevar be so with me. Listen Brian let me show you something that Logic has shown me.
The natural Forms that we all can see and that we all comprehend, these forms are real, they exist, they also contain truths. These Forms, you and Kelly, both of you are Forms, what do you see in kelly? why do you love her? I know that you do, and I know that your love for her is real, I have watched your videos.
Listen Brother, I am speaking to you as my equal, even less than that, as your servent, do you not see and comprehend, that your love for Kelly is real, and the love you have for your mother is real? It is a real substance, it is not the same as the physical reactions in your brain that you belive it is from, it has its own existance. Listen brother, I know for a fact that you can understand this through your conscience. Listen brother, it is God that has put me before you to talk to you, becasue God himself has given you much power, much intellect.
this power he has given you is for a purpose. you my brother are the St. Paul of this new age. Do not belive me brother, but seek your conscience for this truth, I do not Lie to you, you will find it.
God has set you up, for you to lead, and I know that you will. I do not doubt your power, you will be a major leader in the new dispenensation of truth.
Follow that which you hve inside of you, but forget what you have learned from the hypocrites of the current church, for we still exist in the evil age.
Brother, just from viewing you I can see the Logic that leads to truth inside of you, and it will not be wasted on falseness, become that which your destiny has ordained, a leader of truth, and for this reason god placed you in your current position.
this is all I have to say for now.
Peace my brother.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Just saw the debate. You guys tore WoTM apart. All Christians in the blogosphere can do is whine about how meeeeeaaaaan the RRS is (while making fun of the woman who had/lost someone to cancer in the very next paragraph). Comfort, I hear, has sent out an email to his followers saying the atheists clapped too much. Pathetic.
I also saw the video of Friel ambushing Sapient to avenge his friends and win a consolation prize. Also pathetic.
My only criticism would be that while Ray and Kirk said they would prove God scientifically, they ventured into irrelevant fields like history and morality. You could've called them out on that and avoided parts of the debate where, to the uninformed, the victor was not as clear-cut.
... and perhaps I don't understand how this works, but what is the typical amount of time before someone responds to posts?
I don't want to seem anxious (I'm not, really), but am simply looking for some guidance as to when I should check back in for a response from either Kelly or Sapient.
TIA to anyone who can help me out!
I appreciate your response, thiest, but what makes you think I need guidance? I was really just looking for an answer to the question of why Sapient has dictated the type of evidence in advance?
Is he saying that he, personally, will only accept scientific evidence, then that's fine - it tells us the nature of what he finds compelling, but of course says nothing at all about whether or not some other sort of evidence is logically more appropriate.
If he is saying that the question of God's existence logically demands "scientific" evidence, then I would love to hear his argument for that.
I'm really just a newbie here, trying to understand a little more about this whole discussion.
Actually, there's not a typical amount of time for responses anywhere on the forums.
However, if you're wanting to track when responses are made in a particular thread where you've posted, there are a couple of things you can do.
1) You can go into "My Account" (link at the top of the page) and click on the Edit tab. Scroll down to Subscription Settings and check the box for "Autosubscribe". Checking this box allows you to be automatically subscribe to any thread you create or post a comment to - meaning you will be sent an email when there is any response in that thread.
2) Again, under "My Account" click on the Track tab. That will bring up all the threads in which you have participated.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Thanks for the info, Susan!
I just watched the debate on YouTube and I am stunned by the pwnage. You left Ray, Kirk, and their ilk smarting. Christian bloggers can do nothing except compain about how meeeeaaaan RRS is (while making fun of the woman who had/lost someone to cancer in the very next paragraph).
I also saw the video of Todd Friel ambushing Sapient to avenge his slaughtered comrades. Pathetic. I hope they enjoy their consolation prize.
My only criticism is that Brian and Kelly let Ray and Kirk draw them off topic. They said they'd prove God scientifically so when they went off into irrelevant fields like history and morality, you could have called them out on it and avoided parts of the debate where your victory is, to the uninformed, less clear cut.
Job my Brother,
Anything I say it directed at all mankind, not a single person, you obviously do not need your eyes opened from my opinion as you have deduced that not only Empirical Science can Prove God exists, it is the synthisizing of both Empirical and Con Science.
Sapient has not responded for weeks on this forum so do not get your hopes up.
The first comment I made I got a rude remark out of kelly, but then she also disapeared, I am guessing they are to busy "proving" God does not exist with no "proof".
I am not trying to be rude even if it seems that way, the truth can be abrasive to those who dwell in falsity.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
I have been drinking fo the great wine that God has given me, whreinwhitch I have not been intoxicated but with the holiness of my Lord, and I have much Love to speak of you all, and I will speak it, I love you Sapient, Kelly and Rook, the main members of this organization, I see much of you, the enjoyment you have From yoy lord displayed in the yellow#5 opens a package for sapient video, I see your Love and your freindship, I love ye with all my heart as I also Love my Creator, But I love my Creator with much Greater Love that is unfathomable to me, I love ye with Love that I know, and This Love will change you, the love i have Grows like a vine on the banks of a great river, the river of God that exists in the second Realm below God, for his Throne is above the Water.
I am feeling the great Joy of love and wanted to express it to my fellow men, the men whop are Lost and need their Eyes opened, this Love I have you also can have, seek it and you shall find it, Drink of the Water of our God and have it, let God open your eyes to the Truth, it is awesome and most great!
I need not speek of these things but I do, for the World is in the Hands of God, but I am his Slave, and your servent, Love Conquers all and will conquer, I love all peoples and all places that God has Made.
Love Love Love, Love is great, it is Good, it is Godly.
Well I shall go now and seek more enjoyment in the earth as God has ordained for me becasue of His Glory, so should you all.
I love you all.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Lets get serious here folks, I mean dead Serious! Let us start from the beggining, Hydrogen and Helium, then we shall go on from their as we speak of the creationary order. Here is the first Question.
After the First movement of this universe that we exist in, the first elements to form had to be Hydrogen and Helium, for they are needed for Star Formation, as we know, all other elements come to exist from an exploding Star.
Lets go on from here and speak of the creation order, an order that has existed from the beggining.
Lets see if we can open your eyes to the order by going over it in a Logical Manner.
So I have begun, what happens after the first star explodes and creates all the elements?
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Why would any atheist engage in this discussion with you when you have already presupposed some kind of First Movement? There may or may not have been a classical chain of events and consequences that started the universe, but you have already tagged it as such in accordance with your First Mover (read: god-of-the-gaps) theory.
Let's hear you admit that you have no more idea than anyone else about what, if anything, happened before the Big Bang and then we'll talk.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
I am not trying to show you the Father, I am showing you the Fathers order of the universe, how can I show you the Father? as it is written.
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
The Father can only be accessed through the Kingdom of God which is inside of you.
I am showing you the Work of the Father, if you want to see the Father, then Seek the kingdom of God.
Also go read into the Big Bang Theory, or as I call it, the First Movement Theory, read einstiens reasons for this, their are much other evidence for the "first movement Theory" AKA big bang, so go seek this information, we can agree that it is a reasonable assumption that the "big bang" happened?
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
God has set you up, for you to lead, and I know that you will. I do not doubt your power, you will be a major leader in the new dispenensation of truth.
I agree. I have also sensed something about Brian. I like him. I think he's an honest atheist. I predict that he is going to return to the faith and become a voice for it. His witness will make a great impact on the youth of our nation.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
Ry, the Bible does not say that the world is flat. It refers to it as a "circle." It also states in Luke that when Jesus returns, a woman will be grinding at the mill, and two men will be in one bed. This could only occur if the world is round. Think about it. The woman is in daytime working and the men at night time in bed. It will be night on one side of the earth and day in the other. That's round, not flat.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
Ok, just got booted from the rationalsquad room on stickam for 1 hour and dont wanna stay up to get back in.
Rook, lets speak, please come in this room and talk with me.
Ok, so here is yer basis, Peter 1 was written in a dialect of 2nd century Greek.
I am expecting from you the proof and logical arguments on this aspect of the letter in this forum, if you do not produce, i will be in much sorrow.
please show me these things so I can stop believing in God and become like you rational people.
1. Show me the evolutionary order in a documented timeline the Greek language from 0 A.D.
till 300 A.D.
2. Show me that the writer of Peter 1 was psudographic, bring the proofs and logical arguments.
Please I beg of you give me logical arguments to not believe that Peter was an Eye witness of the sufferings of Christ, show me why this is not true, show me this knowledge, bring it, if you are truthful, give me the page number and book name, so I also can know, please,I beg you, I am a man of the truth, if my experiences with Jesus are false, please, bring me the truth, show me the facts, I beg you, Like I beg God for Wisdom, so Bring please, do not dissapoint me.
give me the books. give me the knowledge. give me the proof.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Ok, been looking into Rooks All-Knowing Assertion that Peter 1 is not written by Peter, found a Good article on it, so everyone should read it, and we also should read any Book and Page number that Genius Rook gives us, then we can all decide for our selves what to belive , Correct?
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ynotpeter1.html
ok so im waiting rook, for this awesome information you have that Proves that Peter 1 was not written by peter, and it better be good!
I want "PROOF" like the awesome kind that u ask for God, I want the buttery and delicious kind, the kind that when i taste it, its like i just ate a giant steak dinner on an empty stomach, I want this proof you have to be so tasty and delicious hat I let out a large belch after I consume it.
and i wont accept assertions rook my brother, your assertions taste like a load of horse dumpa doos to me, they make me want to vomit, I want truth, I want "PROOF" BABAY.
Much love brothers, im waiting to get served by Rook!
Love ya!
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
I am well aware that Christians are supposed to presuppose the Father and His influence behind all things. From the atheist point of view, this is a deeply flawed way to try to understand the universe. I could, with equal authority, presuppose the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster who created all things.
The kingdom of God isn't inside me. I know what's inside me and it ain't there. So either you are lying or your God is an evil bastard who doomed me to hell from birth.
No. Nothing that you are talking about requires or even suggests the existence of God.
I know a million times more about the Big Bang theory than you. How do I know this? Because you said the following:
Big Bang theory has nothing to do with First Movement and makes no claims about the ultimate source of the primordial energy of the universe. Go read about the Big Bang yourself before you embarass yourself further.
Einstein did not believe in your God.
Yes. The Big Bang happened - AFTER the primordial energy potential of the universe already existed.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
I am well aware that Christians are supposed to presuppose the Father and His influence behind all things. From the atheist point of view, this is a deeply flawed way to try to understand the universe. I could, with equal authority, presuppose the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster who created all things.
God is not presupposed, He is logically known through the Work of His hands, the Universe.
The Flying speghetti monster as you are claiming is just another name for the Father, if indeed the FSM did the things the Father did, they are one and the same.
The kingdom of God isn't inside me. I know what's inside me and it ain't there. So either you are lying or your God is an evil bastard who doomed me to hell from birth.
Mark 10:15 (Show me Mark 10)
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
Luke 17:21 (Show me Luke 17)
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[1]
John 3:3 (Show me John 3)
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[1] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
You must be Born of spirit to enter the Kingdom of God, so bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and ask this of your Lord and it shall be given.
Ill answer the rest later, gotta go
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Wonderful! Then you can show me empirical evidence for God's existence. Why don't you start with some characteristic of the universe that could only have come about through God.
BTW, this will not be a proof from the Bible. You have claimed that knowledge of God can be arrived at through naturalistic means. I have better explainations for the existence of the Bible than the theory that God wrote it.
No. The FSM has quite different characteristics than the God of Christianity. You cannot say that God has the characteristics of the FSM and vice versa without commiting a logical contradiction. Or is it your assertion that God can be something and also not that thing at the same time?
This is just a bunch of bullshit spewn out of a work of fiction known as the Bible. I'm no more likely to believe this than I am likely to believe that Big Brother is watching me because I read that in a book once.
This is blathering drivel that makes no sense.
I hope so, since you haven't answered anything so far.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
No. Nothing that you are talking about requires or even suggests the existence of God.
So tell me Tilberian, what does that which I am speaking about Suggest, if indeed it does not Suggest God?
I know a million times more about the Big Bang theory than you. How do I know this? Because you said the following:
Big Bang theory has nothing to do with First Movement and makes no claims about the ultimate source of the primordial energy of the universe. Go read about the Big Bang yourself before you embarass yourself further.
The Primordial Chaotic Disorderly Mass was First Moved Upon by the "Big Bang" So I can refer to it as the "First Movement", the "Big Bang" was the First Action of the Universe upon the Primordial Mass, so I shall refer to the "big bang" as the First Movement from now on.
Einstein did not believe in your God.
My God is the God of all, whoever believes in anything, belives in my God, For My God consumates all things and all things are Consumated by Him.
Yes. The Big Bang happened - AFTER the primordial energy potential of the universe already existed.
Yes indeed the Primordial Female Potency was indeed existing before the Male Potency or the so called "Big Bang" first moved upon it.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
This is just a bunch of bullshit spewn out of a work of fiction known as the Bible. I'm no more likely to believe this than I am likely to believe that Big Brother is watching me because I read that in a book once.
God does not right books, men do, but God is the former of all ideas that mankind can comprehend, so the ideas in all books are from God and have their source in him, all knowledge comes from the Father.
This is blathering drivel that makes no sense.
Let me show you what it means, to understand the order of the universe and the God who ordered it, you must first bring order into your soul, when you have obtained euqlibrium in your soul as a Star Does in its lifetime, then will the spirit of order be born inside of you, do this by doin that which is Good and Just, for Justice and Goddness bring order to your Soul, the Soul is the etnirety of your being, Produce this Fruit of Repentance which is the ordering of the Soul, and then Humble yourself before the order that is revelaed unto you, and you shall be allowed entrance into the kingdom for being worthy of its Grace.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
The less faster you pedal, the more slower you go.
Theist, Basically, Your main point/s boil-down to "It is true, because a religious-text says it is", and "Everything, is everything else", "If one 'believes', then it's true", "One can't possibly 'see' if something is true unless one 'believes'-it before examination. Etc.
These are (at-best) flawed, and/or logically fallacious in the extreme. IMO
Please see this good listing of many common errors of reasoning.
Logical Fallacies
An Encyclopedia of Errors of Reasoning
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
The ability to identify logical fallacies in the arguments of others, and to avoid them in one’s own arguments, is both valuable and increasingly rare.
Fallacious reasoning keeps us from knowing the truth, and the inability to think critically makes us vulnerable to manipulation by those skilled in the art of rhetoric.
What is a Logical Fallacy?
A logical fallacy is, roughly speaking, an error of reasoning.
When someone adopts a position, or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position, based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a fallacy.
I say “roughly speaking” because this definition has a few problems, the most important of which are outlined below.
Some logical fallacies are more common than others, and so have been named and defined.
When people speak of logical fallacies they often mean to refer to this collection of well-known errors of reasoning, rather than to fallacies in the broader, more technical sense given above.
Formal and Informal Fallacies
There are several different ways in which fallacies may be categorised.
It’s possible, for instance, to distinguish between formal fallacies and informal fallacies.
Please continue to study these fallacies, once You purge these fallacies (among others) from Your so-called 'reasoning', I'd wager that You'd be well on Your way towards a reasoned-arguement.
Continue at the following link:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
Good luck to You-!
Nothing except itself.
The Big Bang certainly was NOT the first movement of the universe upon a primordial mass. Mass as we know it did not exist prior to the Big Bang. Nor was there any universe outside of the pre-Bang singularity that could have acted on it. Extract your foot from your mouth (again) and go do some actual reading on this subject.
I see. So people who don't believe in God, believe in God, according to you. The world must be an interesting place when words can mean whatever you want them to mean.
Riiiiiiiiight. Was that before or after Han Solo won the Millennium Falcon from Lando?
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
The biggest Logical Fallacy IMHO is to say something is a logical fallacy without backing it up with some Logic, With that Said.
Your post is a logocal Fallacy, go look here to see what it is,
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
After you have studied them please then come back and actually pinpoint my fallacious reasoning please, instead of just stating something as your opinion and then linking a webseite that is obviously smarter than you.
Luv ya much Dug!
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Nothing except itself.
The truth is in itself, exaclty where it should be.
The Big Bang certainly was NOT the first movement of the universe upon a primordial mass. Mass as we know it did not exist prior to the Big Bang. Nor was there any universe outside of the pre-Bang singularity that could have acted on it. Extract your foot from your mouth (again) and go do some actual reading on this subject.
i am pretty sure in your last post you stated that their was primordial mass, now their isnt primordial mass? which is it tilberian, I will accept a link to the information with Glee!
I see. So people who don't believe in God, believe in God, according to you. The world must be an interesting place when words can mean whatever you want them to mean.
My God is in all "things", therefore if you believe in any-"thing" you belive in my God.
Riiiiiiiiight. Was that before or after Han Solo won the Millennium Falcon from Lando?
Actually this was at the very beggining of Time and star wars the Movie did not come out till the 1970's so it is definitely before Han Solo won the millenium Falcon.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Blahblahbinks Speaks in Truth,
Why oh Why? did u not allow me to speak? why did you not even allow me to speak as a servent to you all, rook? I will relate to you that which My Lord Related to me in truth, but has failed.
The Parable of the Persistent Widow
18:1 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
Rook, you were the judge, I asked to speak in all humility, but you have freed me from the bonds of all servitude, for a time, for I shall return to speak with you, but for now I shall order my own Life, not your life will I carry a budren for, for no man can carry anothers burden, less he allow them, I aksed and I did not recieve from you due respect as a servent to your obedience. days shall become weeks, and weeks shall become years, as it is ordained from our Orderer.
You did not fail me Rook, but you failed yourself, to deny a Man to speak in all truthfullness? To deny me the right to express my opinion? why did you do this? but for this reason God gave me freedom, freedom from servitude of your authority, he raised me up above you in the form of Truth.
This is the end of my coming to teach, the end of my coming to relate to my own brethren, till a time, for all of us are proven to be Relatives, seek the truth of DNA to know this is true, we have all one Father, and we are all brothers, but you rejected me, your own brother, Why?
It matters not, but I am Grateful to the Orderer of this Existance, for he has loosed the bonds of wickedness that were upon me, with Goodness he did this thing, for the Maker Loves me, For I love Him.
I do not leave you all with any condemnation, but with Love for all, When you also realize that the Love I have for all My DNA relatives is indeed Right and True, then shall he have a possibility of entering te Kingdom, the Same KingDom that I sit in now, and Drink Wine with the Myth of Jesus, who is above your wasteful knowledge.
Good bye for a Time, I leaveyou with one quote, from a Great Philosopher from the West, so that ye may understand all truths about the immortallity of the Soul.
I will not seek for you, because I am to drunk to even find what I seek at this moment, Read Plato's Timeaus for Truth, For the Truth of what a Myth is, for it speaks that the myth is only a semblance of Truth, and you will see this when you read this work of the days of old.
Farewell brothers, lovers, prise God for giving me freedom from you through your own attitude, and I leave you with one saying.
Love at all times, Seek at all times, and you shall Find All.
Peace my Brothers, I am on my way Home, and I shall see you when I get there.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Meaningless blather. You have descended into incoherence.
Completely wrong, as usual. I said that there was primordial energy. Please learn something, anything, about the Big Bang before attempting to discuss it.
Bullshit. I believe that the universe and everything exists and that there is no God in any of it. So I do believe in something and I don't believe in God. You are refuted.
The point being, you ignorant prat, that your blather about the universe being male and female is a fantasy with the same level of verity as Star Wars.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Before we can talk about "changing" the fact that the sun is a symbol from God, you have to support the fact that it was God that created the sun in the first place. You're putting the cart before the horse.
No, I don't see. I could just as easily say that you can't see that God's will appears to be incomprehensible because you're putting the concept of God in the unsupportable position of being the creator of the universe. Again, you've decided there is a "proper position" that everyone should take without providing an support for this claim.
You're also declared that Free willed beings have to be made pure in the first place. Some people have great health, relationships and financial success, while others experience one tragedy after the other. As such, this purification process just happens to be arbitrary and randomly applied to people without any particular rhyme or reason? Again, if God created everything from nothing, then he would have explicit control over the definition of what is to be "pure" and the way in which we had to meet these requirements. Out of a infinite set of possibilities, God just happened to create the concepts of Good and Evil and decided to make us choose from one of them as part of his plan?
Nor does it seem that all beings need to be purified, since children die before they can be aware of Good and Evil.
Again, I ask you: do these children go to hell because they haven't been tested? Are they segregated from the rest of the population in heaven until they can under go simulated testing of good and evil? If so, why can't we simply go though the same process?
Yet again, you have a presupposition there is a creator to humble yourself before. Where did this presupposition come from? What evidence do you have that supports it? Your saying Y and Z is true because of x. But you haven't proven X. Thus your claims of Y and Z are baseless without support for X. If you base your presupposition there is a creator on faith, then you 'believe' there is a creator. I could have faith that aliens exist and they created all life in the universe. As such I could make similar claims that you should humble yourself before these aliens so they can reveal their truth to you. Or that all life reveals the nature of these aliens. Or that we can answer questions about these aliens by looking at the work of their hands (or whatever appendages they happen to have.)
Again, there is no explicit reference to God in nature. Instead, we see organic development of life that seems anything but "intelligently designed." Why do men have breasts when they do not produce milk? Why does the male urethra go though the prostrate gland when it tends to swell after the age 60? Did God want it to be more difficult for us to urinate in our old age? Why do our eyes project an upside down picture of the world on our retina? These artifacts certainly do not appear to be the work of an intelligent creator.
A side effect of adding God into the hierarchy of the universe is that that everything you see would come from God. But you must put God in this position based on faith alone because when we look in nature, we see no explicit evidence that points to God. One could just as easily add aliens into the hierarchy of the universe and come up with similar conclusions.
Again, I can make the exact same claim. I'd like to believe in God because I'd rather not blink out of existence when I die, but based on everything I know about the world I can honestly say I don't believe the claim that God exists. I reject the things you think you understand because they contradict an overwhelming amount of empirical evidence and there is little to no evidence that supports it. We also have substantial historical evidence of man creating supernatural beings to explain his world that we now know is incorrect.
Or the universe could be complexly random and without purpose. If you claim that God is all powerful and doesn't have to make any sense, then it's impossible to tell the difference between the two of them.
This all boils down to a claim I won't believe in God until I decide to believe in God. Until then, I can't see what God is trying to tell me. I've been down this road and God did not reveal himself. Of course, you'll simply say that I'm not doing it right and that I must I truly believe in God before I can truly believe in God. Go figure.
So then why does God go around telling everyone in Old Testament that he is the God of Abraham and the God of David?
Acts 7:32: 'I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FATHERS, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND ISAAC AND JACOB.' Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look.
Matthew 22:32: 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
He makes it very clear that he is separate from other Gods that people worshiped at that time.
You said "...becasue Empirical Science can nevar answer the question of why we exist, it is fruitless to seek it with emirical science, but with conscience it is possible to know and understand why we exist, you must use this science to prove that God exists within youselves."
Essentially, you're saying that if we want to find a reason why we exist, we must believe in God. Otherwise there is no answer to the question of why we exist. Again, what is if there is no reason? You're limiting your search for truth to answers that give reasons why we exist. I'm not under such limitations.
I'm quite aware of the definition of the word 'know'. If I cut and paste the definition of the word 'meaningless', does that somehow make my claim that there is no default meaning in universe true?
Then you shouldn't have any problem presenting empirical evidence that God exists and I should be able to reproduce you're so called con-science knowledge that God exist. Yet, I haven't seen or experienced either of these things.
Quoting scripture doesn't prove anything. It simply proves that you've read the Bible.
The origin of the word 'myth' comes from the Greek word Muthos, which described ancient, traditional stories, usually transmitted orally, which tell of incredible and exaggerated events in a deliberate, illustrative manner. Since most people preferred oral over written communication, myths were a common way to teach people everyday concepts and ideas. However, the events depicted in these stories were simply a backdrop used to prove a point and were not designed to be taken literally. In addition, it was common to use some kind of supernatural element as a vehicle to bring about the specific situations which illustrated the story's point. This reinforced the idea that what the characters were experiencing was carefully orchestrated to teach the them (and the listener) a specific and important idea, instead of a random series of events that could be interpreted some other way. Even to this day, most of he world prefers oral over written communications and stories continue to be an integral part of how people hand down information from generation to generation.
While you look at the supernatural element in the Bible as a literal entity that is real and has authority over the universe, I look at it as a mechanism which puts characters in situations that illustrate a particular point. In other words, I think the God of the Bible is no more real than everyday machines which transform into robots and threaten to destroy man kind. They are both extraordinary plot devices used to tell a story.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
Tilberians Says thoughtfully,
Completely wrong, as usual. I said that there was primordial energy. Please learn something, anything, about the Big Bang before attempting to discuss it.
Tilberian Brother in Love,
Remember E=MC2
Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared.
So if their was energy it could easily have been Mass.
Think Brothers, Think.
I am in all seriousness not coming back here to talk, I came back to see what I had written as I was in a drunken stupor and did not quite remember exactly what I wrote, I was duley impressed with my drunken wisdom.
I am a man of God, if you want to know God, seek him and you will find him, stop bickering with the people who already crystilizzed their thoughts, free your mind and seek into the depths of your being for the truth, it is their, and it is also verified in nature and history and religion, seek brothers, love brothers, find brotherhood and Godhood. Use the Christ as a Tool and a Guide, he is My Master and Showed me Much in the ways of Wisdom, Knowledge, and Understanding.
Farewell, I wish you all luck on your journey.
Much Love from BlahBlahBinks.
Peace.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
im back, hah, soonet then expected, but hey, who do i have to impress, i do not claim omni-science, just con-science.
well, i have been thinking and talking with m brothersd and freinds, and have some thoughts to share with you woman and men.
well, the whole rivalry between us thiest and athiest has become retarded beyond belief, it has fallen into a fruitless argument with no purpose or reason.
I understand that jp holding and frank whalton for whatever reason think you guys are going to burn in hell(not sure if this is true of them, i only read it, please let them come in here ans also speak) lets make this an open forum for us all to speak.
We need to find a common ground, one that we can speak from, a basic level, without a common ground any argument is going to fall into a debate of opinions, it is not useful.
i have love for both sides, frank whalton and jp holding even though i find their interpretations of the bible to be quite ignorant I also find rook hawkins and sapients interpretations of the bible to be quite ignorant, both of yo in my eyes are special ed when it comes to biblical interpretation, but does this make me right? No.
So, here is what I am proposing, let us all come into this forum and speak one with another, but the first debate must be on the common ground that we will be debating from, such things of the ressurection of jesus are stupid, not one of us can go back in time and see the truth, all that we use will lead to a speculation, God knows this becasue one of his aspects is omni-science.
we need to unite as people, frank whalton and jp holding need to start understanding that they are going against what the bible teaches, they abide by a written code as i do, but they do not act like such when dealing with athiests, they are breaking their own code, this is wrong for them.
on the other hand, they can not accuse athiests of not abiding by a written code, as athiests do not have one to abide by, athiests use con-science alone, so when we look at it objectively , the people more on the wrong side are the christians when it comes to this debate, they are making me and jesus my Lord and master look bad, and its pissing me off, well im not angry, it is just annoying, speak the truth in love as the written code teaches, they dont do this, and its annoying.
so, RRS get ahold of frank whalton and jp holding and anyone else that needs to be here, we need to deal with this issue, from a commmon ground, their can be no mediator, because all of us are bias, we need to have an open forum of discussion with each of us taking turns, and thinking about what the other people say, this is my proposal, it is a good proposal in my eyes.
so, i love you all , both sides of the rivalry, but you guys just spit hate, and the christians are in greater condemnation, stop please, chirstians, come in here and speak the truth in love, and we shall have a great debate of the ages.
please people let me think of what you think of this porposal.
p.s. i saw transformers last night and it was bad ass, the annointing that God has given me told my much truths from this bad ass movie, I want to obtain the mythical ALLSPARK, go read about it, to me, transfomers is a idealistic exegesis of Godly truth, it is awesome, optimus prime is a godly mofo.
so let us begin the discussion with love for each other, let us seek the truth in love together, without bitterness and ad hominum attacks, lets us do this for humanity, let us come to an agreement, let us use the reasoning god has given us to seek the truth brothers.
peace.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Again, I ask you: do these children go to hell because they haven't been tested? Are they segregated from the rest of the population in heaven until they can under go simulated testing of good and evil? If so, why can't we simply go though the same process?
just reading over yer post maya, i will answer this aspect becasue it is easy, here is a quote to answer the first part, jesus taught,
Matthew 19:14 (Show me Matthew 19)
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
Luke 18:16 (Show me Luke 18)
But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
also if you read the taachings of jesus the whole point of it is that you can be just like this, the only way to enter the kingdom, which children already exists in, is to be born of Gods spirit, become a child of God, do this by humbling oneself like a child does to his father.
p.s. i am listening to resident anti-hero and this brother is a true prophet, listen to him, he is awesome, heas a playa.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
So, you're saying that God / Jesus simply decided to make an exception for children and allows them into Heaven without being tested. What about your claim that "...beings can not just be 'made pure' they have a free will do do Good or Evil, do not contradict yourself, if God automatically made us pure, we would have no Free will, you see?
Sounds like the rules are not set in stone and God can make exceptions whenever he wants to. Again, out of all the infinite choices that God had, he's simply decided that, at a certain age, we are no longer children of heaven and requires us to be tested. This is quite a departure from your previous claim that we MUST be tested, as if it's some kind of a hard, fast rule that God has not choice but to impose on us or we couldn't possibly enter heaven.
That's odd, last time I read the Bible is said I must believe that Jesus was born of a virgin as the son of God, that he died on the cross to save mankind and that he rose again. This is the literal interpretation of what I must do to go to heaven. Of course, if you don't think the Bible should be interpreted literally, then your free to come with whatever interpretation you want. However, If you think your non-literal interpretation is the only true interpretation, the line starts in the back. Way in the back.
And I guess you simply don't have answers to the rest of my questions or they're too hard compared to this one?
Did you just say you found God in a Michael Bay movie?
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
So, you're saying that God / Jesus simply decided to make an exception for children and allows them into Heaven without being tested. What about your claim that "...beings can not just be 'made pure' they have a free will do do Good or Evil, do not contradict yourself, if God automatically made us pure, we would have no Free will, you see?
1. Jesus is not god the Father, Jesus is a man, God is the Creator of all things, including Jesus and the Logos of God that incarnated in his body.
2. Let me explain the testing to you in a simpler way, imagine that the soul is a peiece of gold that forms in the earth, now when the gold starts to form its center is completely pure gold (not sure if this is true just explaining it with something we can think about) now as it forms it gets impurities from all around it inside of the actual gold, when we mine the gold we then use intense heat to melt off the impurities so we can pure gold left over. Now so goes the soul, childrens souls have not been tainted by the impurities that exist in the earth, racism, hatred, genocide, greed, death, the souls of children are oblivious to things conceptions, but as you know we are not, so now, when our souls are taken out of this earth realm and put into the fires of judgement a childs soul will not have any impurities to be burned off like we do. Joshua the annointed clearly explained this in his teachings, but of course people wanted to make up their own stuff and create commandments of men, like original sin.
Sounds like the rules are not set in stone and God can make exceptions whenever he wants to. Again, out of all the infinite choices that God had, he's simply decided that, at a certain age, we are no longer children of heaven and requires us to be tested. This is quite a departure from your previous claim that we MUST be tested, as if it's some kind of a hard, fast rule that God has not choice but to impose on us or we couldn't possibly enter heaven.
It is not at a certain age, it is not arbitrary like that, it depends on your development as a human being, like I said, all will be tested in the fires of judgement, children just wont have anything to be burned off. it is correct, only completely pure beings can enter the water and air realm, thats why impurities arew burned off in the fire realm first.
That's odd, last time I read the Bible is said I must believe that Jesus was born of a virgin as the son of God, that he died on the cross to save mankind and that he rose again. This is the literal interpretation of what I must do to go to heaven. Of course, if you don't think the Bible should be interpreted literally, then your free to come with whatever interpretation you want. However, If you think your non-literal interpretation is the only true interpretation, the line starts in the back. Way in the back
You have to make a decision on your own what you belive about the bible, dont let me or anyone else tell you the interpretation thereof, yes i am telling you my interpretation, but my whole goal is to get you to seek it on your own, to interpret it using the spirit of wisdom and knowledge, blind faith is a myth for those who do not seek truth.
And I guess you simply don't have answers to the rest of my questions or they're too hard compared to this one?
in all honsety i will answer all of your questions, you type so much stuff around a single question it is hard to see what the exact question is, if you ask simpler questions it will make it alot easier for me.
Did you just say you found God in a Michael Bay movie?
Ask our father in all sincerity for the annointing of the Spirit of wisdom and it shall be given, then you will Exorsize all things in the earth and dicsern what is good and evil and record the good things on the tablet of your heart and live according to this code that is written within you.
if you go read about the allspark you will see it is very close to the actual Gnostic Beliefs about god the Father, their is much truth to be found in all things, For God the father is in all things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allspark
peace.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
How did we go from being tested on earth to fires of justice outside the realm of earth? You said "...for he tries you with fire as i said before, look at all that is placed in front of you, do you not have a choice to do good or Evil? you do indeed, this is the test from God to see what you choose, and what do you choose..."
My question refers to your claim that we are tried by God with fire here on earth. If this trial is necessary, then what about children who die before they are tried here on earth. Why must we be tried and they are not? They do not choose good or evil, yet you claim they can enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, are these children somehow missing something important and segregated from the general population? Can they have a simulated trial in heaven? If so, why can't we?
If we truly are tried by God then there must be some kind of reason for it. Of course, you can simply say that we can't comprehend his will, but your KNOW that it's God who's trying us instead of random events in a random universe.
And how do we get these impurities in the first place? By God's trying us on earth. Again, if God created everything from nothing, then he created the entire system down to the very last detail out of an infinite number of possibilities. And, very conveniently, this system just happens to look exactly like a series of random events that happen without any rhyme or reason. Since God made up the rules, he could change them at any time, but of course, he won't, even if he knew what would happen when he gave men free will.
Again, God appears to be an invisible, supernatural conductor which man invented to convince himself that a series of random noises and sounds are really an orchestrated, classical piece of music.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
My question refers to your claim that we are tried by God with fire here on earth. If this trial is necessary, then what about children who die before they are tried here on earth. Why must we be tried and they are not? They do not choose good or evil, yet you claim they can enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, are these children somehow missing something important and segregated from the general population? Can they have a simulated trial in heaven? If so, why can't we?
We must choose becasue we are of the elect of God, chosen to be tempted by the Evil of his decaying creation, we exist in the only realm that can noautomatically know of the ultimate Glory of God and his Awesome power. Did you ever read how angels are servents of men? why would this be? becasue we are Gods most holiest creation, when a man comes to love God it is on his own free will, God does not make you love him nor would he ever make a man do that which he did not want to do, he can test you, and you can choose. this is why this world is the perfect world, a world where one person can come to knowledge of God and another can be comp-letely blind to it, God has set logical Walls up around this Universal sphere, he is behind the curtain, as in the Temple of the Jews (which is a layout of the human soul), when Joshua the Annointed sacrificed himself the curtain was rent from top to bottom and the Glory of God was revealed to those who purify themselves in the name of peace. Do you forsake this election to this realm of existance? why? do you not see the beuty and the love, the ugliness and the sorrow? these things are for us to view and contemplate, God did this for Us, and for Him, for Gods Glory will be revealed to all people in the end, and his awesome power will be undeniable to even the most hardcore Athiest. To answer your question, you have been elected to be tested in the realm of earth where you have a choice, once you pass on, then you will have no choice of the testing, you will be in a sphere of Fire as I will, your being will then be made of the elements of fire and your body will be thrust inside of the heart of the Earth, the Sphere of Fire, one of God's everlasting spirits. I look forward to this. That is why I purfy my personality, for whatever part of personality is based in the Vices shall be consumed by the Fire, but that of my personality that is demonstrated in virtue shall come our pure as gold, become a pure person and none of your soul shall be consumed by the fire.
And how do we get these impurities in the first place? By God's trying us on earth. Again, if God created everything from nothing, then he created the entire system down to the very last detail out of an infinite number of possibilities. And, very conveniently, this system just happens to look exactly like a series of random events that happen without any rhyme or reason. Since God made up the rules, he could change them at any time, but of course, he won't, even if he knew what would happen when he gave men free will.
the impurities come from the Hearts of men, men who have been corrupted by the Fallen servent, Iblis, or Satan, Who has no free will, but only serves the lord, but he too shall be thrown into the lake of fire, but it will not consume him i suggest, as he was made of fire as spoken of in the Quran. After the men become corrupt from the whisperings of the fallen one, they then spread evil in the earth and it spreads like a plague no man has ever seen(but we all see its symptoms), it starts wars and destroys families, it causes death and destruction. This is how God brought the fire to earth, and for a purpose, to test men and find those who will love him to raise them up to a high degree in the heavens, as Joshua the Annointed was raised to the right hand of the Father as the God of Mercy, as also was Gabriel Raised up to Gods left hand, as the God of judgement. Your rank in heaven will depend on your actions on earth, do you seek high ranking with the God of the Universe?
Again, God appears to be an invisible, supernatural conductor which man invented to convince himself that a series of random noises and sounds are really an orchestrated, classical piece of music.
Look into physics and quantum mechanics, the idea of free will existing withis the atoms is in itself quite a miracle, The universe is deterministic as we know it, nothing is left to chance, proboblitity in quantum mechanics I belive in the future will be shown to be false as we gain more knowledge of this Realm.
Which is it?
God does not play Dice?
or
God throws the dice where we can not see them?
You can decide what you belive about physics and chance, but seek the evidence before you say something is random. Chaos does not exist in this universe, only order, the only choas that comes here is through the human heart for it can comprehend all knowledge.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
You still haven't answered my question. If unborn children have souls and they die before or shortly after they are born, then they are not tested. Either God doesn't know the choice these children would have made, which you're claiming has some critical significance with Man's standing with God, or God knows what these children would have chosen since he is omniscient.
However, if God can be satisfied by knowing the choice these children would have made without going though the act of being tested, then he would know the choices I would made before I was tested, which makes the actual process of being tested completely irrelevant and unnecessary.
Of course, you still haven't proven that it's really God behind the seemingly random events you claim are specifically designed to test us in the first place.
Again, if God is all powerful and created everything from nothing, then all of these so called requirements, tests and choices are completely arbitrary decisions that God made up because "he wanted to." Since you're claiming it's our obedience that God want's to test, he could have just as easily decided to make us choose from 'Good' and 'Indifferent', instead of 'Good' and 'Evil.' In fact, couldn't God have simply decreed that cocoa was forbidden and given us a choice between vanilla and chocolate cake?
That is, unless you're implying that God was somehow bound by some other force to create the universe in some specify way.
And who created the hearts of men and the fallen servant down to the very last detail? Supposedly, God did. As such, Man would be completely and utterly dependent on God for everything. Surely, man couldn't have given his own heart the ability to reject God or the ability to be influenced by Satan on his own. These properties would had to have been deliberately and specifically placed there by God with full knowledge of their implications.
Example: if I prepare my taxes on my computer and it returns the wrong amount, causing me to be audited, is it my computers fault? No, it's not. The incorrect results could be caused by one of one more of the following external factors...
01. The software shipped with a bug, which wasn't caught by quality control. (Flaw in logic created by the software developer)
02. I entered the wrong information (Bad information from the environment)
03. The hardware had a design flaw, which caused the wrong result to be returned to the software (Faulty hardware design by the engineer)
04. The hardware had a defect due to a manufacturing error. (the hardware was not manufactured to specifications or failed prematurely)
In other words, the computer did not program itself or supply the information used in the calculations. Nor it did not design or manufacture itself. As such, the computer has no choice but to return the results it did and is not ultimatly responsible for the results.
However, you claim that God gave us free will and created / has control over our environment. You claim that God designed us down to the last detail and that he alone gave us life and the ability to reproduce. Yet, you claim that God will judge us if we make the "wrong" decision, even though God would have known the exact choice we would have made.
It simply doesn't make any sense. At all. Period. We can't be anything other than what we were designed to be.
Of course, you could always say that we can't understand God's will, which makes God indistinguishable from nature.
Again, you're claiming that Z is true because of a presupposition of X. But you haven't given any proof that the universe has a God that I should seek ranking with in the first place.
When I said "orchestrated, classical piece of music.", I meant an intelligently and deliberately orchestrated work that was designed with a particular result in mind. Just because some pulsars continuously emit x-rays at a particular frequency doesn't mean that frequency was fine tuned by God. It just happens to be the state of equilibrium the pulsar reached during it's formation. The same could be said for our entire universe.
And, since you quoted Einstein, here's a response he wrote to a letter on the potential religious implications to his Theory of Relativity, which sums my view on the matter rather nicely.
In another letter Einstein writes...
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
You still haven't answered my question. If unborn children have souls and they die before or shortly after they are born, then they are not tested. Either God doesn't know the choice these children would have made, which you're claiming has some critical significance with Man's standing with God, or God knows what these children would have chosen since he is omniscient.
What do you mean they are not tested? on the journey to the Air Realm they shall go through the Fire, having pure souls they shall not be burned theiren, they will Join the other Cheribum, a Form of Angel in Heaven, like the Cheribum Before them.
Just as their are differant Forms of Man, so shall there be Differant forms of Angels in Heaven, Nephalim, Seraphim, and Cheribum. So yes they are tested, but they go straight to the final exam, and they pass with 100%.
Again, if God is all powerful and created everything from nothing, then all of these so called requirements, tests and choices are completely arbitrary decisions that God made up because "he wanted to." Since you're claiming it's our obedience that God want's to test, he could have just as easily decided to make us choose from 'Good' and 'Indifferent', instead of 'Good' and 'Evil.' In fact, couldn't God have simply decreed that cocoa was forbidden and given us a choice between vanilla and chocolate cake?
That is, unless you're implying that God was somehow bound by some other force to create the universe in some specify way.
Gods creation is perfect in every way, Good and Evil corrosponds to the Mathematical Perfection of the Universe, indifferance would be 0, So no, with Gods perfection he could not give us a choice of Good or indifferant, His creation is perfect Balance, It is created by the perfect Being, The Mathematical Universe is the greatest link to gods mind that we have, the Tytractys which is the creationary order when linked to the Ten Sephirotic Beings of God will show you the Structure of the universe if you care to seek it out.
God is bounded by no means, He is the Sphere of Being that envelopes all things from the Throne of Power, Above all spheres of Existance.
Again, you're claiming that Z is true because of a presupposition of X. But you haven't given any proof that the universe has a God that I should seek ranking with in the first place.
Like I have already told you, X being the Kingdom and Knowledge of God is inside of you in the innermost Chamber, look at the Temple of the Jews, he is behind the curtain, behind your perception that is false, if you want knowledge of God you must Use Con-Science to prove it, which is higher in form that any empirical Science. If you do not want to know God exists then do not seek it, if you do then seek the knowledge it is up to you.
However, you claim that God gave us free will and created / has control over our environment. You claim that God designed us down to the last detail and that he alone gave us life and the ability to reproduce. Yet, you claim that God will judge us if we make the "wrong" decision, even though God would have known the exact choice we would have made.
Yes do not sit and lie to me that you do not know the differance between a right and wrong decision, ill give you an easy one, should you go out and cut someones head off right at this moment? if you did make this wrong decision would you expect to be punished for it by the american judicial system? So just because God knows what you will do in no way takes away the fact that you would choose to do it within the situation that is in front of you, right at this moment, you have a chose right now to write back to me or not? what do you choose? use your free will to make a decision, but remember, God is not forcing you do to anything, this is obvious from anyone who has a being, like me and you.
You were designed to Choose, what do you choose? why do you not go steal money from old grandmothers? becasue you "know" it is wrong to do, from your Con-Science you know this, now seek more knowledge in the same manner.
So know, when the design is made to choose things, it is not forced to choose one way or the other, you have a free will to choose, so pick one, seek the kingdom of God or do not seek the Rightousness of the Supreme Being of the Universe, its your free will, what do you choose?
When I said "orchestrated, classical piece of music.", I meant an intelligently and deliberately orchestrated work that was designed with a particular result in mind. Just because some pulsars continuously emit x-rays at a particular frequency doesn't mean that frequency was fine tuned by God. It just happens to be the state of equilibrium the pulsar reached during it's formation. The same could be said for our entire universe.
And, since you quoted Einstein, here's a response he wrote to a letter on the potential religious implications to his Theory of Relativity, which sums my view on the matter rather nicely.
Actually I wasnt quoting einstien, becasue the first word I used "God" refereed to the Supreme being of the universe who is my Father, not to einstiens benign God, So it was actually My quote that I took and Rewrote with proper meaning.
And about the God orchestrator, why do you keep calling things random, nothing is random, stop saying that unless you will bring evidence of random chance in the universe, I will bring proof of order if you so request it, untill you bring me evidence of random events I will not beleive you.
And your line of thinking is quite good, God is the Musician, as if you look at the Creationary order in the Tytractys you will see that the musical note that God created which we exist in is detalied in this mathematicallly perfect symbol. Gods music which me and you are, is quite amazing will you not agree?
Eitnstien Says,
There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only SHEER BEING.
As you can see me and Einstien only differ in 2 factors about the universe, Goal and Will, but we both recognize the Sheer Being that envelopes the universe.
Of course I see the Goal and Will of the universe in all things, Goal being the perfection of his Creatures through the proccess of the Birth order, from earth to fire, through water, and into Air.
And will, For the Will of God is reflected in the purest of human beings, when all vices have been destroyed through the free will of man and woman, and all that is left is perfect virtue, like unto my Father who is in Heaven.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
You said "we are of the elect of God, chosen to be tempted by the Evil of his decaying creation....you have been elected to be tested in the realm of earth where you have a choice, once you pass on, then you will have no choice of the testing,"
Children who die before or shortly after they are born do not choose good or evil. They are completely unable to do what you claim what mankind was created to do, which is choose. If these children cannot fulfill their election, then what is the significance in choosing? Why does God allow them to die without choosing, while making others choose, if that is our reason for our existence?
Either God's selection of Good and Evil is arbitrary or God had to create the universe using a particular mathematical model, since that model requires him to make the choice consist of Good or Evil. If God is all powerful, he could have chosen to create the universe anyway he wanted to, which could have resulted in whatever choices he wanted. If God is all knowing, then God would have known creating the universe in a particular configuration would have required him to make us choose from Good or Evil. To suggest otherwise indicates that God is not all powerful, not all knowing or was constrained in some way.
Which is it?
And I can say "Aliens modified our DNA so we are born with an organic mind control device that look like a natural part of your brain. The knowledge you claim comes from God is really sent to you from these aliens in outer space, which then is received by this device in your head. While it may look just like the rest of the matter in your brain, which make it impossible for me to scientifically prove that it's an alien device, I KNOW it was put there by aliens, who are using to fulfill some kind of master plan.
You simply don't want to know these aliens exist and choose not to seek the truth."
The fact that I have moral impulses does not prove that God exists. Nor does it indicate that God would have the right to judge me for making a decision he would have given me to make.
If you claim that God programmed us with some kind of artificial intelligence which is designed to detect and choose Good instead of Evil, the rate in which we actually detect and choose Good is directly related to the effectiveness and fitness of the algorithm God used and the information we receive from our environment.
Let's say I create an unmanned drone with a weapons system that uses artificial intelligence to identify and select enemy targets. If the software in some of these drones correctly identify enemy targets, but end up selecting civilian or friendly targets anyway, is the drone somehow responsible? No. I'm responsible for creating the drone, programming it's identity *and* selection logic and putting it in a situation where failures in said logic can cause harm. The drone can't come up with it's own selection logic since it did not program it's own artificial intelligence system.
Again, if God created us down to the very last detail from nothing and God created and controls our environment, then our ability to know the difference from right and wrong *and* choose it is a direct reflection of God's creation. We didn't create ourselves, nor did we give ourselves the ability to not select Good in spite of God giving us the ability to detect it. If God should receive the glory for everything, then he should be responsible for it as well.
The American judicial system does not judge people based on a claim that it created humanity and the universe. Laws are created by governments, which is represented by a societies. You agree to live by a society's rules in return for being allowed to live in and receive the benefits of that society. Your free to find some other society where cutting people's heads off or mutation is part of some tribal or cultural ritual that's been going on for thousands of years.
The fact that I find myself in a universe where I must make choices does not in any way indicate that I was designed to choose or that there are "right" choices to make as defined by a supernatural being. You're making this assumption based on your belief, not any evidence found in nature.
You don't say? You were talking about quantum physics and casualty and just happened to come up with your own quote that is a near word for word match of a famous quote from Albert Einstein?
And, on that note, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
You said "we are of the elect of God, chosen to be tempted by the Evil of his decaying creation....you have been elected to be tested in the realm of earth where you have a choice, once you pass on, then you will have no choice of the testing,"
Children who die before or shortly after they are born do not choose good or evil. They are completely unable to do what you claim what mankind was created to do, which is choose. If these children cannot fulfill their election, then what is the significance in choosing? Why does God allow them to die without choosing, while making others choose, if that is our reason for our existence?
Either God's selection of Good and Evil is arbitrary or God had to create the universe using a particular mathematical model, since the model he used requires him to make the choice consist of Good or Evil.
If God is all powerful, he could have chosen to create the universe anyway he wanted to, which could have resulted in whatever choices he wanted. If God is all knowing, then God would have known creating the universe based on a particular model would have required him to make us choose from Good or Evil. To suggest otherwise indicates that God is not all powerful, not all knowing or was constrained in some way.
Which is it?
And I can say "Aliens modified our DNA so we are born with an organic mind control device that look like a natural part of your brain. The knowledge you claim comes from God is really sent to you from these aliens in outer space, which then is received by this device in your head. While it may look just like the rest of the matter in your brain, which make it impossible for me to scientifically prove that it's an alien device, I KNOW it was put there by aliens, who are using to fulfill some kind of master plan.
You simply don't want to know these aliens exist and choose not to seek the truth."
The fact that I have moral impulses does not prove that God exists. Nor does it indicate that God would have the right to judge me for making a decision he would have given me to make.
If you claim that God programmed us with some kind of artificial intelligence which is designed to detect and choose Good instead of Evil, the rate in which we actually detect and choose Good is directly related to the effectiveness and fitness of the algorithm God used and the information we receive from our environment.
Let's say I create an unmanned drone with a weapons system that uses artificial intelligence to identify and select enemy targets. If the software in some of these drones correctly identify enemy targets, but end up selecting civilian or friendly targets anyway, is the drone somehow responsible? No. I'm responsible for creating the drone, programming it's identity *and* selection logic and putting it in a situation where failures in said logic can cause harm. The drone can't change or choose it's own selection logic since it did not and cannot program it's own artificial intelligence software.
In other words, the drone's targeting system either works like it's supposoed to or it doesn't. There is no inbetween.
Again, if God created us down to the very last detail from nothing and God created and controls our environment, then our ability to know the difference from right and wrong *and* choose it is a direct reflection of God's creation. We didn't create ourselves, nor did we give ourselves the ability to not select Good in spite of God giving us the ability to detect it.
The American judicial system does not judge people based on a claim that it created humanity and the universe. Laws are created by governments, which are represented by societies. You agree to live by a society's rules in return for being allowed to live in and receive the benefits of that society. Your free to find some other society where cutting people's heads off or mutation is part of some tribal or cultural ritual that's been going on for thousands of years.
The fact that I find myself in a universe where I must make choices does not in any way indicate that I was designed to choose or that there are "right" choices to make as defined by a supernatural being. You're making this assumption based on your belief, not any evidence found in nature.
You don't say? You were talking about quantum physics and casualty and just happened to come up with your own quote that is a near word for word match of a famous quote from Albert Einstein?
And, on that note, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
You said "we are of the elect of God, chosen to be tempted by the Evil of his decaying creation....you have been elected to be tested in the realm of earth where you have a choice, once you pass on, then you will have no choice of the testing,"
Children who die before or shortly after they are born do not choose good or evil. They are completely unable to do what you claim what mankind was created to do, which is choose. If these children cannot fulfill their election, then what is the significance in choosing? Why does God allow them to die without choosing, while making others choose, if that is our reason for our existence?
Either God's selection of Good and Evil is arbitrary or God had to create the universe using a particular mathematical model, since the model he used requires him to make the choice consist of Good or Evil.
If God is all powerful, he could have chosen to create the universe anyway he wanted to, which could have resulted in whatever choices he wanted. If God is all knowing, then God would have known creating the universe based on a particular model would have required him to make us choose from Good or Evil. To suggest otherwise indicates that God is not all powerful, not all knowing or was constrained in some way.
Which is it?
And I can say "Aliens modified our DNA so we are born with an organic mind control device that look like a natural part of your brain. The knowledge you claim comes from God is really sent to you from these aliens in outer space, which then is received by this device in your head. While it may look just like the rest of the matter in your brain, which make it impossible for me to scientifically prove it's true origin, I KNOW it was put there by aliens, who are using to fulfill some kind of master plan.
You simply don't want to know these aliens exist and choose not to seek the truth."
The fact that I have moral impulses does not prove that God exists. Nor does it indicate that God would have the right to judge me for making a decision he would have given me to make.
If you claim that God programmed us with some kind of artificial intelligence which is designed to detect and choose Good instead of Evil, the rate in which we actually detect and choose Good is directly related to the effectiveness and fitness of the algorithm God used and the information we receive from our environment.
Let's say I create an unmanned drone with a weapons system that uses artificial intelligence to identify and select enemy targets. If the software in some of these drones correctly identify enemy targets, but end up selecting civilian or friendly targets anyway, is the drone somehow responsible? No. I'm responsible for creating the drone, programming it's identity *and* selection logic and putting it in a situation where failures in said logic can cause harm. The drone can't change or choose it's own selection logic since it did not and cannot program it's own artificial intelligence software.
In other words, the drone's targeting system either works like it's supposoed to or it doesn't. There is no inbetween.
Again, if God created us down to the very last detail from nothing and God created and controls our environment, then our ability to know the difference from right and wrong *and* choose it is a direct reflection of God's creation. We didn't create ourselves, nor did we give ourselves the ability to not select Good in spite of God giving us the ability to detect it.
The American judicial system does not judge people based on a claim that it created humanity and the universe. Laws are created by governments, which are represented by societies. You agree to live by a society's rules in return for being allowed to live in and receive the benefits of that society. Your free to find some other society where cutting people's heads off or mutation is part of some tribal or cultural ritual that's been going on for thousands of years.
The fact that I find myself in a universe where I must make choices does not in any way indicate that I was designed to choose or that there are "right" choices to make as defined by a supernatural being. You're making this assumption based on your belief, not any evidence found in nature.
You don't say? You were talking about quantum physics and casualty and just happened to come up with your own quote that is a near word for word match of a famous quote from Albert Einstein?
And, on that note, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
Accidentally hit Quote instead of Edit.
My last post contains the corrected message.
Wow. Such a steaming puddle of textual diarrhea... incoherent, ill-digested concepts spewed out as nuggets of shit that are nearly indistinguishable from what went in, except they stink more for having made the trip.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in hopes that you're not being deliberately obtuse by claiming that your and Einstein's ideas of "Sheer Being" are in any way equal. He means it as "simple existence," whereas you appear to define this "sheer being" as some sort of supernatural god. I'm not
Your beliefs sound like a blend of Judeo-Christian myths and some neo-pagan/new-age ideas. Interesting.
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
Children who die before or shortly after they are born do not choose good or evil. They are completely unable to do what you claim what mankind was created to do, which is choose. If these children cannot fulfill their election, then what is the significance in choosing? Why does God allow them to die without choosing, while making others choose, if that is our reason for our existence?
All shall fulfill their election to their place in the Heavens, All shall be where they were made to be, I already told you , God creates differant forms, these forms are evident on earth, as well they shall be evident in the heavens. Your reason for existance is for God to create something for him to Love, for God so Loves the world that he would sacrifice his greatest love to teach those who will be elected to high positions from a place where he is not known to all people, the perfect world, where we exist.
If God is all powerful, he could have chosen to create the universe anyway he wanted to, which could have resulted in whatever choices he wanted. If God is all knowing, then God would have known creating the universe based on a particular model would have required him to make us choose from Good or Evil. To suggest otherwise indicates that God is not all powerful, not all knowing or was constrained in some way.
Which is it?
The world that God created where we exist, is the perfect world, I am sorry that you do not humble yourself before him and bow down to his Almighty Glory, you will be elected to a low estate in the heavens, but as shall I , For i condemn myself to save others, trangrassing in the ways of the written word to bring people closer to God, I accept the lowest position in the heavens, for this is where my election is laid down, this is my greatest place, for I want true humilty, in heaven and on earth.
And I can say "Aliens modified our DNA so we are born with an organic mind control device that look like a natural part of your brain. The knowledge you claim comes from God is really sent to you from these aliens in outer space, which then is received by this device in your head. While it may look just like the rest of the matter in your brain, which make it impossible for me to scientifically prove it's true origin, I KNOW it was put there by aliens, who are using to fulfill some kind of master plan.
You simply don't want to know these aliens exist and choose not to seek the truth."
If the aliens are the ones who formed the universe that is reflected in the periodic table, then they are my God, for if the Aliens formed the universe they are equal to my God, if you have any truth in you about these aliens then bring it to the table, but we al know you do not, and you do not know this about the aliens like i know about my Father.
From the large peice of text that you wrote about drones and the judicial system it is obvious that you have not contemplated on what I have spoken, I see what you write and their is no need for contemplation or research, unlike what i write, which apparently you have not researched or contemplated on these things, you are missing the point, and will forever miss the point if you do not humble yourself as I do before the Orderer of your human body.
The fact that I find myself in a universe where I must make choices does not in any way indicate that I was designed to choose or that there are "right" choices to make as defined by a supernatural being. You're making this assumption based on your belief, not any evidence found in nature.
Wrong, the evidence is in the science of physics, i have control over matter, it does not control me, the universe is deterministic, probobility in quantum mechanics will still not explain the fact that I control the matter that is my body, and also can move matter with my hands. I form things, as God the Father formed me to be like him. Nature tells a differant sotry then free will, free will is opposed to nature, you should know this if you research the truth of this world.
You don't say? You were talking about quantum physics and casualty and just happened to come up with your own quote that is a near word for word match of a famous quote from Albert Einstein?
And, on that note, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
Obviously you did not read what i wrote, I said i "took" the quote from einstien and gave it proper meaning, sorry that you did not understand what I meant.
As you have bowed out of the discussion I can only wish you a good journey in the earth till we meet in the heavens, you will be above me, for as i have said, I have taken the position of lowest estate, you will be above me, and I look forward to speaking with you then.
Peace my brother, and much love to you and your family.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Wow. Such a steaming puddle of textual diarrhea... incoherent, ill-digested concepts spewed out as nuggets of shit that are nearly indistinguishable from what went in, except they stink more for having made the trip.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in hopes that you're not being deliberately obtuse by claiming that your and Einstein's ideas of "Sheer Being" are in any way equal. He means it as "simple existence," whereas you appear to define this "sheer being" as some sort of supernatural god. I'm not
Your beliefs sound like a blend of Judeo-Christian myths and some neo-pagan/new-age ideas. Interesting.
I Cherish your comments in my heart, it shows that you woman, have contemplated on the ideas that exist within the writing, even if you call it shit, at least you have called it something.
Peace to you and your adolescent child, I wish you both well in the earth, enjoy Gods bounty.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
and obnoxious, just so you dont think im trying to pull a benny hinn job, i know you have a adolescent child becasue you spoke about your son/daughter turning 16 in the rational response chat room.
i wish both you well.
peace
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Thanks! I thought I saw you in there
Eh, I'm never all that surprised by what some people know about my "real life" - I don't particularly go out of my way to remain anonymous online.
I'd just like to know where you come up with some of this stuff because your posts ramble all over the place.
Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.
I seek for truth and I find it, but first I had to humble myself to the point of ignorance, to know I knew nothing, So that I could be filled with everything.
God annoints those who do this, any man or woman can have the annointing, you need only humble yourself and it can be yours.
The Truth is in all things, you need to order it into its proper place with the help of the annointing.
peace
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.
Theist,
I understand your theory, and I understand why you might believe it's plausible and has merit. The problem I have with your theory is that you claim it must be true based on declarative statements which you present as concrete, indisputable facts that are obvious to anyone. Yet you do not provide any support for those statements. Again, I can see why you would want to believe these statements are true, but that doesn't mean they *are* true or that they are explicitly supported by anything in nature. There could be other explanations for the characteristics we see, which are at least as plausible, if not more, than God.
For example, you say the universe is perfect. Perfection is a very subjective word and requires knowledge of other possible universes that are not perfect of which you can compare to. Otherwise, you're simply saying that our universe exists. And it exists because God made it. And God is perfect. Therefor, our universe must be perfect. This isn't an answer, it's a declarative statement. Even if God exists, it doesn't mean our universe is perfect. God could have created some other universe that is "better" than ours or he could have used it as an experiment. If you're saying it's a good universe in which to test his artificial intelligence algorithms, then I would say yes. But perfect? How would we know that is the case?
And would God have the right to judge us just because a test he created was perfectly executed? If I think of the perfect test to find out if you like chocolate or vanella ice cream, does that mean I have the right to judge you based on your choice since the data was obtaned in a perfect manner? No, it doesn't.
I don't think the universe is perfect. This doesn't mean I'm not in awe of the universe, that I don't think it's a beautiful place, or that I don't have respect for it from a certain perspective. But it means that I'm aware of it's imperfections and I can see them as imperfections because I don't see the universe as some kind master plan that's unfolding. The universe may be determinate, but that doesn't mean that the end results are perfect or designed by some intelligent supernatural force.
If you're saying that the Universe is a "machine" that does X and it does X perfectly, then I would agree. But that doesn't mean the end result of X is a perfect result compared to some other result. In fact, if the universe must do X, then it simply cant produce any other result. Again, you can say that that Universe is perfect because it can have only one result, but again, it doesn't mean the result is perfect because it's the only result that could have occurred.
You also said that "All shall fulfill their election to their place in the Heavens, All shall be where they were made to be..."
In other words. Things happen. They happen because God made them happen. God is all powerful, all knowing and perfect. Therefore, regardless of what happens, it was supposed to happen that way and it's the only right way.
This is not an answer, it another declarative statements with no support. Again, if God's will is arbitrary and incompressible, then how can we distinguish it from nature?
I can say that there is beauty in the seasons of life: birth, youth, adult hood, old age and even death. But that doesn't mean it's perfect or that it's somehow part of some master plan by God. I don't have to reject reality to reject your claim of God's existence. I can be humble in comparison to the universe without believing that God created it. These are not mutually exclusive as you're making them out to be.
We do not learn by experience, but by our capacity for experience.
I understand your theory, and I understand why you might believe it's plausible and has merit. The problem I have with your theory is that you claim it must be true based on declarative statements which you present as concrete, indisputable facts that are obvious to anyone. Yet you do not provide any support for those statements. Again, I can see why you would want to believe these statements are true, but that doesn't mean they *are* true or that they are explicitly supported by anything in nature. There could be other explanations for the characteristics we see, which are at least as plausible, if not more, than God.
I can make declaritive statements about the perfection of the universe that are true by default of living in this universe for example.
The Universe is perfect for Forming Human Beings with Free Will.
This declaritive statement is true, both me and you understand it is true, I declare it, and you know it to be true by observing that indeed the universe is perfect for forming human beings, as that is which it has done, so the evidence to back up the perfection of the universe in certain respects is existant and can not be ignored.
For example, you say the universe is perfect. Perfection is a very subjective word and requires knowledge of other possible universes that are not perfect of which you can compare to. Otherwise, you're simply saying that our universe exists. And it exists because God made it. And God is perfect. Therefor, our universe must be perfect. This isn't an answer, it's a declarative statement. Even if God exists, it doesn't mean our universe is perfect. God could have created some other universe that is "better" than ours or he could have used it as an experiment. If you're saying it's a good universe in which to test his artificial intelligence algorithms, then I would say yes. But perfect? How would we know that is the case?
I gave you a declaritive statement giving you proof of perfection within the universe, now give me a declrative statement giving proof of imperfection, think about this....
can you do it?
And would God have the right to judge us just because a test he created was perfectly executed? If I think of the perfect test to find out if you like chocolate or vanella ice cream, does that mean I have the right to judge you based on your choice since the data was obtaned in a perfect manner? No, it doesn't.
Yes it does, the situation you are put in is part of the judgement, when you know what is wrong and choose the wrong, you will be judged for it, same goes here on earth in the judicial system, in Texas where I live the law for insanity is "you can not distinguish between good and evil" if this can be established then you will be declared insane and your case will be aquitted, how can you judge someone unless they Knew they were doing wrong, we humans are capable of understanding this, of course God understands this, God judges by the situation you are in personally , as humans do also, so yes, God has a right to judge you when you knowingly commit wrong actions, you will be repaid for your deeds, as all people will, in the Fire of Redemption.
I don't think the universe is perfect. This doesn't mean I'm not in awe of the universe, that I don't think it's a beautiful place, or that I don't have respect for it from a certain perspective. But it means that I'm aware of it's imperfections and I can see them as imperfections because I don't see the universe as some kind master plan that's unfolding. The universe may be determinate, but that doesn't mean that the end results are perfect or designed by some intelligent supernatural force.
Again Prove imperfection within the universe, or stop saying it is imperfect, I just showed you perfection, here is another statement.
The Universe is Perfect for Forming Stars.
Please Maya, explain to me how you recognize if something has intelligence behind it, give me the Criterion for saying something has intelligence behind it, then I will show you how their is intelligence behind the Universal order.
If you're saying that the Universe is a "machine" that does X and it does X perfectly, then I would agree. But that doesn't mean the end result of X is a perfect result compared to some other result. In fact, if the universe must do X, then it simply cant produce any other result. Again, you can say that that Universe is perfect because it can have only one result, but again, it doesn't mean the result is perfect because it's the only result that could have occurred.
Finally you will admit that the universe is not based on anything random, as you said it over and over, are you starting to see the light? Human beings will inevitabbly exist in this universe, it is coded into the Universe by the Laws and inside the Matter.
In other words. Things happen. They happen because God made them happen. God is all powerful, all knowing and perfect. Therefore, regardless of what happens, it was supposed to happen that way and it's the only right way
Precisely.
This is not an answer, it another declarative statements with no support. Again, if God's will is arbitrary and incompressible, then how can we distinguish it from nature?
Like i Said, nature is an image of God, is not an image of you in the mirror indestinguishable from the actual object being reflected? to the Eye?
Gods image is reflected in nature, as the hindus know very well, and the Will of God is reflected in the Love of Joshua the Annointed.
I can say that there is beauty in the seasons of life: birth, youth, adult hood, old age and even death. But that doesn't mean it's perfect or that it's somehow part of some master plan by God. I don't have to reject reality to reject your claim of God's existence. I can be humble in comparison to the universe without believing that God created it. These are not mutually exclusive as you're making them out to be
If the plan was not instituted by God, then who instituted it? because we have already discovered that the Universe is not Random, where did the Structure and Form inside the universe come from, where does the Order come from, becasue the order is not random.
And no you can not be humble without being Humble to God, tell me Maya, what are you humiliating yourself before? What power are you humbling yourself too?
Explain to me your "Entity" or "Idea" that you humble yourself to in respect to the universe.
From God, God Formed Ether, From Ether, God Formed Energy, From Energy, God Formed Matter, From Matter, God Formed Mind, From Mind, God Formed Mankind, From Mankind, God Formed God.