And once again, Fonzie/Meph confuses himself with Jesus.

Fonzie, I never said I wasn't for Jesus. I do, however, have a problem with your portrayal.

If you're the Christ I'm supposed to be like, I'll pass.

It will be your own fault if you are lost.  And I'm sure at some point in your life you have been "taken".  You never forget those times.  This is the biggest take going.  If you listen to the Devil and let him make you miss eternal life you will be a  HELL  to yourself - regardless of whether it's a  "smoking or non-smoking" area.   

 

 

Ok JcGadfly,

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond death.  Does your hope end at death?

What is your ultimate standard for right and wrong and how have you arrived at this decision?  

How are you doing your fellow man the good you have mentioned if YOU are heading the wrong way, or no way, or don't know which way? 

Is it a matter of "I don't know where I'm going or what I'm doing either, so we have a basis for a relationship and we hope to keep it that way"?

Is it a matter of the blind leading the blind and the clueless applauding the clueless, the indecisive glorifying indecision? 

 

I have addressed all these points JcGadfly and all you have done is rage and laugh.  What do you have to offer?  Are your attacks just a distraction for your emptiness?  Don't cartoon this, let's hear your reason for living and loving.  If you are an empty suit have the honesty to admit it JcGadfly.

 

 

 

 

 

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond death.  Does your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life.

 

 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers. 

In contrast with the doubt and questions of DIY righteousness, our faith stands solidly on the willing sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God - God's Sacrifice, the Body and Blood of Jesus, the Son of God.  We are confident that sacrifice is enough for us and all who believe in the Son of God.  We have inspired Scripture that says the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross pays the price in full.  We know by this plan conceived (as Scripture tells us) before the world was created, and executed as planned - that God loves us all, enemies included. 

The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer. 

You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.  Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.  And you will find if you do He is Alive in you as well, and that fellowship with Him is the abundant life indeed, eternal life, confident life - confidence in Him not in yourself.  A point of how this principle works on a bad day - we can learn like Paul that "when I am weak, then I am strong". 

In other words, the principle really kicks in when we see ourselves as weak, which is reality, because our confidence is not in ourselves but in Jesus.  If you're trying to peddle your way through life achieving what you see as great through your own greatness, when you weaken it falls apart and your house of cards crashes.  But we have peace and help in Christ even when we are weak. 

I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.  He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NoDeity, JcGadfly, Atheistextremist - and all,

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you! 

While we don't find a lot we agree on it's been pretty civil in my opinion.  At least I haven't been offended.  The best to all of you.

 

Fonzie

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond death.  Does your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life. 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers.

The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer.

You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.

Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.

I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.

He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I so wish I could use this machine on a vast amount of the population.

Di66en6ion wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I so wish I could use this machine on a vast amount of the population.

Di66en6ion,

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this.  This article claims this machine switches off pride such that a man would see things as they are? 

 

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

First off, happy new year back at you.

Now, I find it interesting when Christians claim to not do good works to gain God's favor. Especially while they go to church and tell God and everyone all the good things they've done - it's like they're asking if Daddy still loves them.

I may have you wrong in this. you may be one of those Christians that thinks "I've got mine - I know God loves me. After all, righteousness is not based on works. If people want my help, they can come and be Christians first. Then I'll help them but only then."

As for me, I help people if they need help and I can help. None of this "my own righteousness" stuff. What God thinks of me matters about as much as what I think of him, that is, not at all.

To believe in salvation, i would have to be motivated to believe there is something to be saved from. It's interesting that the subject of hell doesn't come up until the creation of Jesus - OT scripture doesn't mention it.

How do I know you pick out the commands of God you like? Do you follow the dietary laws as found in Leviticus? Do you stone disobedient children to death? I don't believe you do and that's a good thing. It also means that you are selective of God's law. Not a big deal - all Christians can and should do that because so many of those laws make no sense.

Are you backpedaling on the faith thing now? I have to come to Christ with my faith instead of him giving it to me? I'm glas yo finally figured that part out.

 

JcGadfly,

I may be wrong but I don't think I could tell you the time of day (even if it was noon) and you accept it.  But you would make latitude for fellow atheists. 

We've established you are doing great things for great reasons.  I am just telling you the truth that whatever it is you do for whatever reason it won't be acceptable in the end - if you accept the Scriptures (which we've also established you don't).  Also we've established you don't need a Physician because you're not sick.  You don't need God, and you don't need least of all me.  We're just talking about it all, just shooting the created breeze.  

I "go to church" as you say to worship Christ in fellowship with others who are in Christ.  I'm not going to find out if God still loves me - that's established just like it's established that you don't think you want any part of it all.

Salvation is by grace in Christ and Him Crucified, the Lamb of God sacrificed for all the sins of all men of all time who accept it through faith  (I know you know I told you) and with no works of the law mixed in.  Paul was really fighting that wrong turn in the book of Galatians down to the finest point.  Works of the law include the dietary you mentioned (Jesus declared all foods clean) and stoning (Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus the only One Who kept it perfectly, the Law didn't have anything on Him, He didn't have to die - but He died willingly for us - the death of Death.  When Death sucked the life out of Jesus it was Death's own Death and it also sealed Satan's doom - and the timer is ticking. 

I'm not planning on going to Hell.  I have my doubts and questions put to rest in Christ and His Death on the Cross.  My faith and trust is in that, not in my going to church, good works, knowing how to answer all your questions, being able to make you understand when you don't want to, making nice,nice in such a way that you are pleased, justifying myself to you, etc.  I have perfect peace in Christ well lit with the indwelling Holy Spirit's glow. 

Next you say I'm proud.  I think you react to the confidence that is possible when Christ takes the iniquity away between a man and God.  I am confident.  God has brought me near.  I have been born again, born into Christ, given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, God has written His law on my heart (Scripture perspective not mine), I know the Shepherd's voice.  I am at peace and ready for war at the same time (not war with you JcGadfly - war with my old self, war with the Devil and his water boys - you're not one are you?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are wrong - tell me the time and show me your watch, no sweat. Tell me that God told you that it was noon and I'm going to pull my watch and check. Nothing personal - I just don't trust magic for answers.

I'm telling you that the only thing we are sure of is that we will both end. I hope that people will remember me for what good I've done but it's cool if they don't. You hope that there is an afterlife where the God you believed in kept score of your deeds so you can have a reward. If believing is all that you need to do, why do James and Jesus spend so much time talking of works? Anyone can talk the talk - where's your walk? It's not showing up here.

I'm glad you have such confidence in your belief that you've jumped through all the right hoops. In the end, it's still guessing that you have the right version of God. You claim knowledge of what you can't know. If you knew it you wouldn't need faith.

I don't think you see what you wrote in the first sentence - you use the scriptures to validate your own assumptions. If you want to do something and you search the scriptures finding one that says you can then claim "God told you to do it". If you can't, well, you can always claim "the Bible was written by men and they didn't expect the things we have now"

As for us using things we don't understand, I agree. However, so many of the things you use as examples can be measured and documented that I can't really compare them to the being that you claim it is impossible to know anything about (and consider that a virtue).

congrats on 42 yrs - My wife and I celebrated our 11th last year.

I know, you walk by faith and not by sight. Unfortunately, that also can mean you ignore what's in front of you because you're focused on the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen". AKA, being too heavenly minded to be of earthly good".

I appreciate your attempts to help me and I believe the motives are sincere. I must ask if you have faith and you believe that is all you need (as you seem to) why bother trying at all? You're already set. Why be concerned about this command of Christ's when you ignore so many others?

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. ¹⁶If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. ²⁴You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and Luke 12, where Jesus commands people to DO things and not just believe.

The things we know about God are self contradictory - he is love but he hates and is jealous. He tells us not to commit murder but dispatched people at his whim. He is the perfect love that casts out fear but we are supposed to fear him because he can throw body and soul into hell. He sent his son/himself as a sacrifice but gave up nothing. He loves us unconditionally as long as we worship him from our conversion and beyond. I wouldn't want a relationship with a human so inconsistent because I wouldn't trust them. Why give God a pass?

Do you mean the same Paul that preached that all you have to do is believe? Granted, he kept busy spreading that message. One could say that he didn't believe his words enough to follow them and added works to his faith.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. ¹⁶If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. ²⁴You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and Luke 12, where Jesus commands people to DO things and not just believe.

The things we know about God are self contradictory - he is love but he hates and is jealous. He tells us not to commit murder but dispatched people at his whim. He is the perfect love that casts out fear but we are supposed to fear him because he can throw body and soul into hell. He sent his son/himself as a sacrifice but gave up nothing. He loves us unconditionally as long as we worship him from our conversion and beyond. I wouldn't want a relationship with a human so inconsistent because I wouldn't trust them. Why give God a pass?

Do you mean the same Paul that preached that all you have to do is believe? Granted, he kept busy spreading that message. One could say that he didn't believe his words enough to follow them and added works to his faith.

 

JcGadfly,

Real faith in God manifests itself in real change in life, real hatred of evil and works which show evidence of a real living faith.  Here's another aspect of it: "he who has doubts is condemned if he eats (against conscience) because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.  One view of that is our faith should be a "together" faith - where we are not divided against ourselves, not the divided state that results from going against our conscience.   

Paul said, "it is no longer I that live but Christ Who lives in me".  Paul had good works but the works issued from Christ Who lived in him.  The works that result from Christ living in a Christian are an expression of a real faith that can be observed, true, still salvation is from Christ and His Death Burial and Resurrection.  That's the gospel to be received by a real faith - which manifests itself in works which can not all be hid. 

We receive the gospel through real faith which convicts us, enables us to be "born anew" into Christ and into His Death, burial and Resurrection.  Our real faith means that since He died, we died with Him.  Since He was raised, we are raised to walk in a new life.  Since that life is really new and really real it results in real change and real actions.  But the actions aren't what saves - the actions just result from the real Living Christ and His Holy Spirit living in us. 

I have a friend that for one period of his life he didn't even check his mail box.  He said, "nothing good comes in the mail".  The postman eventually left a funny note on the mail box.  It said, "there's no sign of life at this address".  If there were no works we could say the same about that address.  But if the opposite is true, the right thing to do is give glory to Christ because it's His work. 

You mentioned the range of characteristics of God.  What can I say, God has it all.  There's no one outstanding characteristic (like Peter's impulsiveness) in either God or Jesus because they Both are Perfect in all characteristics.  God has perfect justice - yet is a merciful and forgiving God, thus to be feared. 

True He is the One Who can send body and soul into Hell but He is the One Who stands ready to forgive and totally forget our iniquities.  If you would come to Him for forgiveness you would remember things He doesn't (on purpose God would forget).  He puts our sins as far away as the east is from the west.  There's no contradiction.  If there would seem to be which there doesn't it would just indicate my ignorance and lack of understanding. 

Is this just academic with you or are you thinking about real faith manifesting itself in real change of heart, mind, affection - and observable works? 

 

"Let  the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe"  (God)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. ¹⁶If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

Everything starts by thinking for me - did you process the information before you heard it or were you persuaded without thought?

This real faith in God - did he give it to you before you came to him for salvation or did you come to him with your faith? Also, why does Paul consider thinking and doubting a sin? Doesn't this stand in opposition to Mal. 3:10 - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

One cannot prove something where there is no doubt. I'll go out on a limb and say that you don't pray anymore because you're asking for God to respond (you know, prove himself and remove your doubt).

I never said that the actions led to salvation - what I'm wondering about is why one part of the Bible says that works are necessary and another says they're not. Or are you working a circular argument = works come from faith which comes from works which come from..."

In other words, ACTIONS cannot save us. Only FAITH. But once FAITH has saved us, and God has changed us, then the love that is within our hearts from God will cry to be let out... in ACTION.

Action is evidence and an indicator that God truly has changed us.

Why don't you climb off that big warhorse and take your armour off?

As for making statements people don't agree with, or causing offence, I know it won't have escaped your attention that forgiving people you love gives a really nice natural high. I'm old enough to know that all my friends and family annoy the hell out of me sometimes and it's mutual. But we forgive and let things go and move on. Maybe god could try that instead of using violent threats? That would be leading by example.

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

NoDeity wrote:

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

Hi NoDiety,

Nice to meet you.

Every man does good to those who love him. If we greet our brothers, we are behaving as normal, natural 'good' humans. Even the worst murderers and rapists probably loved their friends.

The 'supernatural' is when God changes normal, natural humans to love their enemies and truly pray for their good. That's God.