It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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JcGadfly (et al),
I have heard about these attitudes, actually have seen them without and within The Book, not surprised at them and don't take on the job of changing them myself as I admit I can't. You don't accept or like the message (gospel), the LORD (Jesus), the LORD'S method (preaching), don't see your own sin except casually, don't actually know yourselves (not complete, not connected with your creator or spirit), and have a wrong yet ignorant and insulting stance toward God. Here is an example of your creative effort to insult God: the satire of saying you can cause DD of S. Your ilk have taken new ground of folly and are the laughingstock of the universe, the cloud of witnesses, you who utter such folly to the God of the Universe who Knows the path of every raindrop, every dust speck, indeed every atom. Guys, I'll hand it to you working at your preaching lies and ignorance and pulling the oar for your master in harmony - but you ought to peek out and see where the death boat is headed before it is too late. Yet even now says the LORD, return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning; and rend your hearts and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil. Who knows whether he will not turn and repent and leave a blessing behind Him, a cereal offering and a drink offering for the LORD, your God?
Hi again, Meph.
Well, as long as you refuse to engage in discussions, then yes, of course you can't. Anyway, the only "attitudes" you've seen here are the attitudes of people who don't believe every word you say, just because you say so.
You really don't read anything in your own thread, do you ? You haven't noticed the occasional theist jumping in and disagreeing with your interpretation of all that ? As for me, I didn't just say I don't accept it, I explained why. It's the last bit you keep ignoring.
We point out the many problems with your personal interpretation of god. You find that ignorant and insulting ? Think about that for a moment.
As for "not seeing your own sin" or "not actually knowing yourself", well, hate to break it to you, but you have no way of knowing any of those things. Sorry.
Eh ? Uhm................hey guys, anyone here been saying that ? Meph, what's dd of s ?
That's a very nice insult, Meph. Unfortunatly, I don't know what it refers to. Are even still talking to us ?
And you ought to start explaining what all this gibberish actually means. It has no connection whatsoever to anything we were talking about, or any of the many questions that were put to you.
Actually, it's you who's saying all those things. This isn't the first time I have to remind you that you're not god. Try to remember it now, okay ?
Also, typing a word in capitals doesn't make it any more impressive.
Quite a lot of people, actually.
Right, now for your next effort, this being a discussion forum, why don't you actually start discussing ? With us, please, not with the imaginary atheists you keep shouting at. Thanks.
It is always amusing to read Christians talking about sin to atheists/agnostics as though the term has meaning for either group.
There are good actions and bad actions - we in reality have to live with the consequences of those actions and hope that the humans we offended will forgive us when we have wronged them.
Not so with Christians. Depending on which version of Christianity they follow (Jesus or Paul), they have either infinite forgiveness or need not worry because their belief in Jesus shields them from the laws of God and man. Which view do you hold, Fonzie? Or do you follow both (incompatible as they are) just to be safe?
Now to the rest of your slander:
As stated earlier, the Gospel message is incompatible with the rest of the Bible. Emotional attachment doesn't change that.
Hating Jesus? I can't hate him for the same reason you can't love him - neither of us have met him. Please drop the Todd Friel crap. Can't accept him as described in the Bible? No more than you can accept Zeus as described in his myths.
How does taking a 2000 year old book at face value make you know yourself better? Oh, yeah... the connection you forged with the God you made (you just borrow the title the Bible gives their main character).
The "divine denial of service" bit is a joke/ad campaign in response to real service disruption that some theists were practicing against an atheist group in Australia. I can't deny God from providing what he doesn't provide. How many times have you solved a problem by yourself or with friends and needlessly gave God glory for the solution? Or are you one of those that has to pray about each item on the menu before you can decide what to eat?
The death boat? That's almost funny. You're on it also. The only difference is you need a story of an afterlife where you can be in bliss and watch all those who disagreed with you roast for eternity so you don't have to be afraid of things that go bump in the night.
If your Lord needs to repent for the evil he's done doesn't that put us on equal footing? If he has to do what he wans me to do that doesn't make him a being worthy of worship.
I don't know whether I should thank you for this or not. I talk with really nice Christians and read their books and get close to accepting Jesus into my heart. Then I read your stuff and think, "If a condescending, hate filled prat like him believes he rightfully deserves heaven why do I want to be there too?"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
I can't help but wonder when it was you were formed and poured, floated, brushed and cured, and set in these false doctrines, principles and perspectives? When was it you were a learner, formable, humble and porus that you took in these lies? When was it you were chained with pride and certified satisfied and petrified? You couldn't escape if you wanted to - unless you call for the Deliverer you hate though He doesn't hate you. The grace thing about this is - like Jonah knew about Ninevah - He would come! The snare would be broken and you would escape! You would look back and hate your old self - the "old jcgadfly". You would get a year off going to war being newly married to Christ. Then you would buckle on your sword and learn war against the powers of the air, the principalities coached by the Holy Spirit, still humble, remembering from whence and from how you came to be free and to see. And I would be glad too, old JcGadfly! I would rejoice with you, remembering my own escape! Hating my old self, the old Fonzie. Adventure, my friend awaits! It would work for you too! Can you dig it? Can you dig it? Can you dig it!!!
You just come here to insult people, don't you, Meph ?
It's actually quite impossible to hate something that doesn't exist.
"Married to christ" ? Who do you think you're talking to ? A nun ?
I think I already asked you, several times , to give the World of Warcraft talk a rest. We're doing our best to understand you, and this doesn't really help.
You mean back when you were still Meph ?
I'm beginning to wonder, have you ever even read a single one of his replies ? If you're not interested in a discussion, why do you continue to post here ? If you want a blog, just make one.
Ah, when did I come to this point...
Offhand, I'd say it was after reading the Bible, becoming a Christian, then running into bigoted, hateful people who loudly proclaimed allegiance to the same God I did. These were people that I once counted as my friends and family in the Lord, who claimed that they loved all people with the love of Christ. I couldn't understand how they could say that and be as bigoted and hateful to those they were supposedly trying to reach. When I expressed my confusion, the majority of these "Christians" said they weren't judging people but "God gave them the right to be fruit inspectors" - a la Matt 7:16-20. Then I re-read the Bible and found out that they had divine protection to be as abusive to people as they wanted being "not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14) and "where there is no law, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). I found this even more confusing because they also preached that one could "backslide" (which of course they NEVER did - I asked when I showed concern about their words not matching their actions).
These people (who seem to be much like you) meet your description "chained with pride and certified, satisfied and petrified" more than I do. I changed my position after challenging what I was told. You seem to be more content with picking and choosing what you like from the Bible and ignoring what doesn't fit. Then you march boldly out and preach your "I'm better than you because I have Jesus" corruption of the Gospel - a Gospel that Jesus would slap the taste out of your mouth for speaking. But you'd know that if you'd read it, wouldn't you?
And Deut. 24:5 about a newly married man being exempt from the military for a year to be with his wife - great idea. The image you put with it - making me visualize Jesus and me screwing for a year once I got saved? Wrong on so many levels.
Hating myself? If I wanted to do that, I'd be back at an altar of prayer, giving my life to Jesus. I treasure my sanity and my spiritual/emotional health far too much for that.
I did get a life out of all the "Can you dig it?" repetition. It reminded me of the professional wrestler Booker T. He always followed his with "SUCKA!"
When will you?
Oh wait, you won't read this anyway and just preach some more. I guess you just added the "SUCKA" line.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
Yes, I've read all your posts. I don't doubt you have strong faith in everything you have said; however, the thing I would "preach" as you characterize disdainly using the right word but wrong attitude toward is that your faith may be strong but if in any but Jesus Christ - it will fail. It's like the story about the guy that built the lighthouse on the Eddington rock. It was ornate and colorful - like you and your beliefs JcGadfly. He was so confident in his lighthouse that he said he wished he could be in it during the strongest storm. He got his wish and he and his lighthouse were never heard of again.
Then why do you keep ignoring his questions and arguments ?
He doesn't need faith to make his arguments. So everything following that assertion of yours is completely beside the point.
Re-read his post and try again.
There it is - the "sucka!" finish.
So explain why I felt worthless while living for Jesus and somewhat more normal when I stopped.
I dare you.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
The one playing you for a sucker is not me. You are suckered taking security in the temporary. It's more comfortable staying at home by the fireside "secure" in the temporary house of clay than venturing to sea in faith to discover Christ and the eternal world. I don't think you ever made the guts breakthrough or got sea legs. Maybe you just water skied along shore but never sailed. The "feelings" you put so much importance on are just part of this "walking by sight" rather than "walking by faith". But you're right - it's easier. It's broad too. As far as "normal" - any old fool can be "normal". Jesus is extraordinary, beyond your belief. You are "enjoying yourself" - because you have never experienced "enjoying God" or you wouldn't be so easily satisfied. Yes, you have to reject every sylable about faith in Christ because if you admit any of it true your house of cards crashes down - which in reality would be good demolition for future building. When you realize it is true in the end - don't wait 'til then - think how and who has played you for a sucker. Not me, JcGadfly.
Oh for joy....more möbius preaching.
Let me guess, he's going to use the word "sucker" a lot now.
Well, even leaving all that god stuff out of it, you are still trying to make us believe you're not Meph, so you have more than one con going here.
Actually, he's done all that. How many times does he have to tell you ?
Ah, here it comes ! He didn't do it right !
And maybe, just maybe, you have no way of knowing what he did or didn't do. And if you really wanted to know, you could simply ask him, and then you'd know. But of course, then you'd have actual relevant information, instead of stuff you just made up, and where's the fun in that ?
Where did he say any of that ? Why can't you just read what he actually wrote ?
What is ?
What's "normal" ? Who's posts are you even replying to ?
All these quotation marks make it hard to figure out if you're being serious or just kidding again.
Nope, just the bits that don't make sense.
Again, no. Also, if any of it were true, then the first houses crashing down would be those of organised religion. Yes, yours too.
And good for people who make their living wiring houses, eh Meph ?
Yeah, when you're being thrown into the burning pits of hell !!!! Moohahahaaa !! Who's the sucker now, eh ? Nyahahahahaaa !
Read what you just wrote, Meph.
Yes, it's still you.
I think I might just wait here without posting for a while (at least until Fonzie finishes his sermon blog and answers my questions).
Why do I feel more love for myself and others as a non-Christian as I did when I was worshipping the God who supposedly is love?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
I'll give you my honest opinion for your opinion question. Why do you "feel more love for yourself"? Because you do have more love for yourself. I don't doubt that. You do know that is listed as one of the things that happen in the "last days", right?
Ok, "love for others"? What others? Those who love you? I didn't see you mentioning love for Jesus. Anyway, Jesus said sinners even love sinners but He called for something more from His disciples - love for enemies. (something more than just feeling normal).
Jesus said no man can serve two masters, so there you are - you. You are "enjoying yourself". I think you have settled cheap. It is worlds better to enjoy God.
Know this: the Father is watching the road for you to come back. The prodigal son realized a new view of things - but he was wrong thinking he would go back and just be a servant in his father's house. His father threw a party. You know the story.
He should have just stuck with feeling worthless ? Nice. Well, I guess that would have made him easier to manipulate, so I can see why you would like that.
Oh, I know how you love your enemies, Meph. You threaten them with death and eternal torture, don't you ? Threats = christian love. Well, I wouldn't expect anything else from a guy who freely admits he'd murder children for god.
And according to you, that "love" is all that seperates you from us godless atheists ?
That means that all I'd have to do to "love" like a real christian, would be to start threatening people.
Okay then : "Hey Meph, you're going to hell !". There you go. Now there's no difference between your love and mine.
The bible says that even the devil can quote scripture, so there you are - you.
If you really wanted to know what he's "enjoying", or what he "settled for", you could just ask him. You've had plenty of opportunity to do that, but it seems you don't really want to know.
That's were your opinions differ. He has arguments, you don't. You have threats and pseudo-biblical prose. There's some coming right now :
Know this : Once upon a time a christian grandad heard about the blasphemy challenge. He came to the godless atheist board to show these poor lost sheep how glorious a life in christ could be. But in his dealings with the atheists he was so consistently dishonest and proud, that he showed them the exact opposite.
You know the story.
It goes on, and on, and on......
Yep,
Gotta love those choices.
Stay with the best guess of what I think God is (That's what you're belief is - the hope you got the right god out of all the others) and dream about committing suicide every night so I could have a peaceful sleep. (what I actually lived as a servant of god considering ministry)
or
Feel completely worthless because of a belief that I am nothing without God while simultaneously telling people I'm better than they are because I worship God the "right" way. (also known as being you)
or
Live my life understanding that I don't need an invisible magic man to experience joy. (where I'm at now)
I'll stay with option 3, thanks. I don't need to threaten anyone with this choice.
Looking forward to your next sermonette...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
I'm going to take you at your word - this sermonette is that the whole effort of reconcilliation comes from God. It's His idea , and it's His work. He calls man to be reconciled to Him rather than man calling to Him. What He calls man to is a turn of emotions like a rudder turns a ship - toward love for Christ. If man wants to be reconciled to God the reconcilliation is all prepared in Christ. A man can die to himself in Christ and be raised to a "new creation" in Christ. This is totally different than a reformation - like a drunk deciding to be sober for instance. All things are new in Christ. God gives us a new heart. It's great. You're passing up a great option.
And all I have to do is swear undying obedience to a being who thinks I will never be anything without him. Then when I do that, he denies me his presence (in spite of my fervent pleas) so that I can be something.
Loving someone who hates me that badly would make me a battered spouse not a beloved child.
Things must be going really well for you to have such a pollyanna-like view of God.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
No, the part you say He denies is the best of this I think - He is with you. You're never alone. You know, you have the wrong impression of being a slave. If you are a slave to Jesus you have a Master that has shown He will even wash His slave's feet. If you have a Master Who will even die in your place - it's better than being a king!
Whether things go well or rough for me on this earth I just don't want to be out of His Presence. I have great longings to be at home with Him, so I am content in this world but not content with it. But, yes He has lifted me up to a level place. And He has armed me to the hilt against the powers of the air, and the principalities. If I lose to them in daily battle I have no excuse. So yes I am secure.
When you drive by the graveyard what meaning do you attibute to life? You know the clock is ticking - what hope lifts you and sets your course? Are you not without rudder as an atheist? How do you concentrate your force of life? What do you focus on - besides yourself? Isn't focusing on yourself a bummer? It always was for me. It's a dismal road with a bridge out at the end. I'm hoping you'll put in for the Bridge.
Your sermonettes are essentially the same thing as those Nigerian emails I keep getting.
...or christian fortune cookies.
Anyone know what that's supposed to mean ?
Likes to watch, does he ? How comforting.
Who mentioned slaves ? Nobody. Why can't you just read what he wrote ?
Any second now, you're just going to start talking about how great you are again, right ?....Yup, there he goes :
That's nice, Meph, but you see, here's the thing : Nobody actually asked you about any of the things you're talking about there.
Let's try this again, shall we ? If a discussion in a thread is over and done with (or never started at all), but you still want to discuss something, then what you should do is formulate a new OP, and start a new thread.
Or you could just stay here, and ignore people's attempts to debate with you, using your occasional irrelevant replies as a vehicule for more preaching.
I'm actually fine with that. I have my own reasons for keeping you talking.
You just keep rephrasing the same questions. You've asked him this many times before. You never cared about his answer before, so why ask again ?
That question has also been answered many, many, many times. You didn't forget. You just didn't want to hear it.
Quite easily, thanks.
Other people.
Actually, your collected posts are a monument to your narcissism. I've never met anyone who talks so much about himself.
Actually, no, it isn't. We've told you that many times before as well. Again, I'm forced to ask, if you have no intention whatsoever of listening to us, then why are you here ?
He's been there, he's done that. How many times does he have to tell you ?
And how many times will I have to ask you that again ?
If I had felt his presence even once, I'd still be a believer. And please don't tell me it's not about emotions. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the peace that passeth understanding - as a Christian, I never had it (even though it is promised to the believer).
When I go by the graveyard, I go by a graveyard. Death holds no terror for me as it is inevitable. My life's course is set by my desire to help others. My hope is that I have lived my life to the best of my ability and to the most use of others. That should tell you that I don't focus on myself. In fact, selfishness is something I could accuse you of because your sole focus seems to be getting yourself to heaven and bragging about the trip you think you're making.
I hope you're not too disappointed when you find the nothing that awaits us all. I hope even more that you aren't shocked when you meet me in some other god's hell because you made the wrong guess.
If there is a god, I know where I'll be - do you?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
If you felt god relieve you of your conscience and reason you be a believer?
Have you ever considered the implications of this?
JcGadfly,
The presence of God is there for you to have in Christ. It's no different than any in the "all" of "The times of ignorance God overlooked but now He commands all men everywhere to repent". I can't describe the "new creation" to you or create it of you, but I have prayed and will pray for God to visit it to you. You are right in recognizing the potential greatness of this blessing of the presence of God. There is nothing like it - to awake with it and run the course with it, go to sleep in peace and not care where you wake up. The preacher tells us there is nothing new under the sun but the lowliest saint is a "new creation", spoken into existence by God. The blood of Christ is the blood of the "new covenant" and as a "new creation" we are tied to that in the most fundamental way. The understanding of how this fulfills God's justice and delight in His grace is soundly laid on the rock of reason but the fire and fury of the emotions of love for Christ come and consume the sacrifice - we are propelled and constrained by the love of Christ. The "new creation" in Christ involves every part, mind, heart, soul, spirit, understanding. The fire burns bright in our tent. We know we have the treasure of the presence of God with us JcGadfly. God can visit you with it. Every saint was called by God while still in sin. There is no sin of man that can be mentioned but there are now saints who had committed those sins, now new creations who have died with Christ and are now lifted up by Him to set in the heavenly places. It is too new to describe to you what this is like. Lazarus was raised from the dead but he had the same body - this is different than that. Naaman was healed of leprousy but had the same body still - this is different. God gave Saul "another heart" 1 Sam 10.9 but God gives us a new heart in Christ. Who knows what might unlock for you the riches of the knowledge of Christ. It has been different for everyone called that I know of. God could make a totally new way to call you.
Gee, I wonder how long it will take meph to once again ignore the most repeated, basic fact about JCG.
And there it is. The very first sentence. Meph, sweetheart, try to listen this time : He's already been in christ. The presence of god wasn't there.
How many times does he have to tell you ? And how many times will I have to ask you that ?
Right, now that you've once again ignored something he's been telling you for over three years, I guess it's time for more preaching, completely unrelated to anything anyone has been trying to talk to you about. Here it comes :
What is ? What are you talking about and why ?
What "new creation" ? Who asked you to describe it to them ?
And if nothing happens ? Let me guess, it 'll be his fault ?
He's recognizing the absence of it. Try reading what he writes. Just try. Just once. Please ?
You can keep bragging about it till you're blue in the face. It won't make it true.
You're just going to admit that all you're doing is preaching ? You're not even going to try and pretend you're actually having a discussion ? Once again, probably not for the last time, but if that's what you want to do, then why are you even here ?
He just told you it didn't happen. There is nothing in your reply that even acknowledges that, nothing that shows you even read what he wrote.
Why can't you just be honest and tell him you have no intention of ever acknowledging anything he says ?
So you're saying that's what God's presence does? No wonder Christians love it so much.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
Can two walk together unless they agree?
With those outside we talk of salvation, entering through the Gate, a turning of the affections toward Jesus the Lamb of God Who loves us even as we are enemies. Paul lays the foundation of justice cold and hard as a Rock, then the fires of emotion - heart, mind, understanding, soul, spirit - consume the sacrifice.
A new creation in Christ we are like the guilty in one of the cities of refuge, like a stone in the temple, like a fruitful branch in the vine. And to those in Christ we talk about the Holy of Holies of communion with Christ.
Walking implies life. Walking together, communion - agreement of direction, purpose, talking, progress, not just for a moment but going the distance.
I'm willing to accept that you're as happy as you say you are. I expect that you'd probably be just as happy -- possibly even more so -- if you had chosen to value reason instead of faith.
As for enlightenment, it is pretty clear to me that you are choosing to live in delusion. So, no, I don't think that "enlightened" is a term I would use to describe anyone who holds the beliefs that you do.
What criteria would you use to determine whether or not that which an atheist would offer is better?
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
You can walk all you want, Meph, but you can't really talk about "agreeing" if you don't actually listen to people.
Yes Meph, we know what you like to talk about. We also know what you don't like : Honesty.
Paul, eh ? Wow, you really don't listen to him at all, do you ?
Should I mention again that no-one asked you to preach at them ? That this improvised bible prose isn't an answer to any of the questions that were put to you ? Yeah, I'll mention it, just for giggles. And I'll add once again that this is a discussion forum, not a pulpit. If you want a new OP, then make a new thread.
Anonymouse,
If the presence of God was not JcGadfly's experience then it would truly be "new". There is "nothing new under the sun"; however, this is not from "under the sun" this is from the Son, and this is new - a new creation. This would be new to both JcGadfly and you, Anonymouse.
NoDeity,
You would be the criteria for what you see as better.
Well Fonzie/Meph,
As the presence of god seems to be pretty much emotionally based for you, I'm not surprised that feeling happy equates to God's presence for you.
It's the same prosperity theology dung that Osteen and Schuller put out - "God wants you to be happy and wealthy - If you're not giddy and rich. it's your fault."
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Oh, talking to me again, are you ?
The point was, nobody asked you anything about that whatsoever. We asked you plenty of other things, though, all of which you cheerfully ignored. You're basically just talking to yourself now, well, you were doing that from the start, you're just more open about it now.
Look Meph, if you want to preach, fine, but don't do it on a discussion forum. Get a blog. Go nuts. I promise I'll come over and say hi.
You have absolutely not even the tiniest notion of a figment of an idea about what's "new" to us.
JcGadfly,
How would emotion hold strong for decades? I went to that movie the passion and the emotion wore off by the next day. This is different.
I have seen the things you mentioned preached and have no appetite for them. The old, "if you're right why aren't you rich" lie has been around a long time and is destroyed by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, various proverbs i.e. "a good name is better than great riches...", etc. and other fundamental teachings - and the Teacher Himself not carrying money or having a home on earth.
It's not my intention to avoid serious discussion (which would include respect). I tried to answer your problem with experiencing the presence of God obliquely, honestly trying to share something that is remote to you but real with me.
Any one can take every line of any effort to present another view and make sport of it - and I'll admit I have been tempted to show how easy it is, but I think you would honestly admit that isn't serious discussion. It doesn't bother me that the destroying of discussion goes along with the accusation of a lack of it. It's like some church experiences gone wrong. In fact Sapient called this the flock or something like that, so this is similar to a church experience where some need to say things that show others what a great defender of the faith they are - especially those who live in the church so to speak. It's kind of like the apostles having that question of "who's the greatest?" I have seen that sort of thing in church just like here.
What I am trying to discuss here is the experience of the presence of God. You say it never happened with you. You sincerely say you were a Christian. I don't have a problem accepting all of that. I am just intent in telling you that - accepting all of that - evidently something was missing. Maybe it was perseverance, maybe something else I don't know.
Now, every line of this could be followed by a mischaracterization and a barb, then that could be followed by the statement that I don't want to listen to the barb er and don't want to have a serious discussion with the mocker. But know this - I have made an honest effort to explain myself.
I'd appreciate it if you would offer a clearer, more precise answer. I find conversation more satisfying when the responses are less ambiguous.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Let me save you some time. He doesn't do "less ambiguous". Conversation ? Not gonna happen.
Yet another bad analogy. Your emotions are with you all the time, Meph.
He was referring to your "I'm happy because I did it right, and you didn't do it right, so you're not" theology. You most certainly have an appetite for that. As for the "God wants you to be rich" crowd, they're actually a lot more succesful than atheists. And yet you don't preach at them. Gee, I wonder why.
Read your own threads. Count the unanswered questions, the ignored posts, the many times your op and other points were defeated and you pretended nothing happened.
Meph, avoiding serious discussion is the cornerstone of your faith.
You are confusing respect with gullibility. The fact that people who've known you for a while here are still talking to you goes beyond mere respect, btw.
It always came down to the same thing : "I did it right, you did it wrong". And try to understand, you have no way of knowing what is "remote" to any of us.
I'm dealing with each and every point you try to make, which means I'm repeating myself a lot, cause you don't take a blind bit of notice. And then you turn around and say it's not your intention to avoid serious discussion. And you wonder why I call you dishonest ?
You're already tried that. In fact, there's nothing left you haven't tried at least twice. Except have a serious discussion. You really want one ? Then go back to the first unanswered question and start from there.
It bothers me, though. You call questions and information you don't like "making sport", well, then how is anyone supposed to communicate with you ? You can't even be bothered to be honest with us about your earlier threads here on the board. That's how much "respect" you have for us.
I have no idea what Sapient calls anything. You seem more interested in him than I am.
And like I've told you many times before, nobody reads this thread. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if people are getting a bit irritated with me for keeping this thread alive.
There it is again : "You didn't do it right". But you had more perseverance than him, didn't you, Meph ? Ah, I see you added "maybe". Well, that's a start.
I see. So if I don't want to talk to someone or acknowledge their points, then all I have to do is use words like "barb" and "mocking", and it's okay ? Gee Meph, that sounds sort of dishonest. Are you sure you want to do that ?
As you have just demonstrated yourself, you've been very far from honest indeed. But I will admit, you've explained yourself quite clearly.
And that's what made me an atheist.
You may be right but I'll be interested to see for myself how he responds (if he responds).
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
That's why people go to church once or twice a week - a recharge.
You're preaching a variant of prosperity theology and aren't aware of it. Instead of "believe in god and you'll be rich" yours is "believe in god and you'll be happy" Either one has "if you're not X, you're doing it wrong" as its flip side.
Don't be oblique. If you believe that you have something that is directly useful, deliver it directly. Otherwise it looks like you're being dishonest. What you're doing is not bringing what you claim is remote any closer.
I have yet to care what Sapient calls this place. I speak for no one but myself.
As for the experience of God, you claim that you don't know what was missing in my experience but you know that it was missing on my end. That reminds me of friends of mine who prayed fervently to be healed of MD or MS that had been living a life the Christian life for years. When they were unsuccessful, they shared their concerns with their brethren in Christ. What they got in return was "Your faith wasn't strong enough" or "You didn't pray hard enough".
"You didn't do it right" - look familiar?
I don't think I've thrown any barbs at you - apologies if I have. It is frustrating when the discussion doesn't really go anywhere.
What it's been to this point is:
You - "Jesus is cool - you're really missing out"
Me (et al) - "why is Jesus cool for you?"
You - "Jesus is cool - you're really missing out"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
NoDeity,
I'm not wanting to be ambiguous. My thinking is framed in the Bible. I mean I have studed it a lot and thought about it a lot (digested) and tried to apply it. It is a part of me, so in answering this I would compare the idea of a man's way of life to the parable of Jesus about a man in search of the best pearl. In that parable when he finds it he gladly goes and sells everything he has to buy that pearl. What I have offered - walking by faith in Jesus - is that best pearl to me. I was asking what the best pearl is to you - what you see as worth putting your whole life, energy, passion..... into. Obviously I have made my choice and have tried to explain what walking by faith in Jesus is in different ways - that's The Pearl to me. If you have such a pearl to you - I would like to hear it.
aka "Jesus is cool - you're really missing out"
I've been trying to be honest with you - I'd really like you to be the same.
Why is Jesus so cool to you? Or is that the mystery you mentioned way back in the OP?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
Yes, and yes to 1 and 2.
3) Why is Jesus so cool to me?
Answer: What I have read about Jesus in my Bible I have also experienced and am now experiencing. The Bible says we who are in Christ were once dead and have now been made alive. I have experienced the misery and frustrated hope and thwarted desire of being spiritually dead. Now I am experiencing the ever brightening joy of abundant life getting brighter - beyond what I ever hoped or dreamed.
The Bible says Jesus became sin and God's wrath was poured out on Him, so that the death He died.... I died. The Life He now lives... I live. I am experiencing that. I can remember the spiritual death I have come from. I am living the risen life in Christ. There is quite a difference. The difference is greater than I can hope to describe to you or even myself.
The Bible says my sins have been washed away. I've experienced that, and maintenance of that as I stumble along. I am motivated by Jesus' love to respond with love for Him as my driving motive for life. That is a powerful motive for life, and there is no sorrow with it, no side effects.
Jesus said if I obey His Word He and His Father would come and live in me. I am experiencing that, the presence of God and Christ. That is a powerful spiritual fellowship. I read Paul saying, "I know Who I have believed" - and I am experiencing that. I know Jesus. He lives in me.
The Bible says to count it joy when I face trials - all things work for good for those who love Christ. So I know when I face trials that they are perfectly measured and designed and dispensed by my Father Who is on top of His game totally. To me this is all cool JcGadfly. For me nothing could be cooler than to look back on my life and be able to say I was propelled by love for Christ. That would be the coolest for me.
You're trying to be honest ? Try harder. For example, you still haven't owned up to your earlier threads.
It's already been explained to you, many times, that having read something in the bible isn't an argument in any discussion. Furthermore, you simply have no way of knowing if any of your personal experiences are in any way similar to something that happened 2000+ years ago.
I know, you already told us about suffering from bipolar disorder.
That's how I and many other's here would describe our first steps into atheism. You've been told that many times as well.
That's nice, Meph. The point is, there's no way for you to know that I'm not experiencing the same joy, but without the jesus.
This may surprise you, but I know what you mean. I've been taking care of someone who's been suffering from severe depression for many years, and when their condition improved, they described the difference in exactly the same way. Leaving out the christ, of course. In other words, even if what you're feeling is real, it is in no way unique to religious people.
No side effects ? Then what about your consistent dishonesty ? What about your admission that you would kill an innocent child for your god ?
If you described these vague notions ("he lives in me", "I am experiencing the prescence", etc) in more detail, explained what it all actually means in reality, then you'd find that other people are doing/experiencing the same things all the time, but without religion or god.
But of course, it's the vagueness that makes you special, so you will keep using the bible prose to hide behind.
Even the killing of innocent little children, apparently. I'm sorry, as normal and "enjoyable" as that is to you, I still find that rather shocking
That's just taking the phrase "shit happens" and adding god to it. Makes no difference to what it actually means.
"Jesus is cool because it's in the bible and it makes me feel good."
It's already been explained to you why that is not a rational argument. And yet you keep bringing it up. This is called preaching.
So Jesus makes you feel good? Or are you attributing the good things you have done to Jesus because the Bible says you can do nothing without him?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
In a nut shell, my "pearl" -- that which I value most highly -- is life, most especially my own life. The best tool human beings have for maintaining and enhancing their lives is reason. So, I value reason. Faith is the wilful abandoning of reason. So, I reject faith.
Regarding the Bible, I am somewhat familiar with it. I practically grew up in church. When I was small, the Bible was read to me daily. As soon as I was old enough to read, I read the Bible daily for myself. In my teens, I attended at least one mid-week Bible study group most weeks as well as church on Sundays. I attended a post-secondary Bible school for several years, majoring in biblical studies, with an eye toward the ministry. I tell you this just so that you understand that I am not ignorant about that which I have rejected.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
NoDeity, Be prepared for a "You just didn't persevere" sermon.
LOL! Yeah, I've received plenty of those over the years. My usual response is that, when one realizes that banging one's head against a wall is not going to achieve anything worthwhile, there is no shame in stopping.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Is there any more you would mind explaining or expanding on this this? I'm really interested.
Actually, Meph, you've talked to many people like NoDeity before, and you were never really interested in what they had to say.
So is this progress or pretense ?
Can't wait to find out.
Can you be more specific? Are you referring to what I wrote about value and reason or about my familiarity with the Bible?
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Can you talk more about your experience (or lack of) with the God of the Bible you were reading. This is like a time line but you leave out your thinking in this experience.