It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Sadly, it seemd the Troll's senility was getting worse, as It now resumed conversations from years ago.
And yet, it was still quite easy...
There are no theists on operating tables.
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Butter,
if you Know God - and rightly understand (rightly divide into context) the Word of God - It IS Perfect, All True and Right
In order to rightly understand the Thoughts of God and Know God Himself you need the Gift of The Holy Spirit
a Gift promised to all who believe in Jesus and are Born Anew by the Water and the Spirit - a Gift you can have if you believe in Jesus
God through Paul tells the Corinthians: (paraphrased) 'what man knows the thoughts of man except the spirit which is in him'
I don't know how this works obviously (or neurons, gravity, light photons, etc.) but we think all the time - using our spirit
we use things all the time we don't understand - so this isn't a thing God wants to withhold from us or confuse us with
in the same way - that our spirit "knows" our thoughts - The Holy Spirit KNOWS the Thoughts of God - and makes them available to us, dwelling in us
also Jesus Promises He and The Father will come and dwell with those of us who believe in Jesus
this is why when Paul went to Corinth he had one thought in mind: Jesus and Him Crucified - the gospel was the First Thing, the One Thing
Paul wanted to get the Corinthians through the Door ("born anew into Christ) - so they could have fellowship with God
and understand these spiritual things, know God, have their sins washed away, be secure in Christ, be freed from being "in Satan", break the trap
God through Paul says it is therefore impossible for men and women of the world to understand the Things of God -
the unspiritual person can't understand the spiritual - it's foreign to them
however; God invites: "all who will may come" to Him - God invites and wants all to come to Him
since He is the potter - we are the clay...we come to Him on His terms - not vice versa - He is God not us
we submit to the Salvation He has provided and take on the Wedding Garment of the Righteousness of God in Christ
the Word of God says: there is "One LORD, One Faith, One Baptism" - those who believe in Him will be Saved
the Grace of God in Christ Jesus is a Gift to be received through faith in Jesus, His Death for our sins, His Resurrection to Indestructable Life
those who don't believe are condemned already because they have rejected the Grace of God in Christ Jesus
which is: God paying the price Himself through the death of The Perfect Lamb of God
God providing The Way, The Truth and The Life for us...in Christ
the Scripture speaks of those that love darkness rather than Light, and lies more than Truth
they condemn themselves by rejecting the gospel
^ Attempting to rehash lost arguments with people who aren't active posters is the definition of fail.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts. And yet, it was still quite easy…
god…blah…Word of god…blah…Holy Spirit…blah…jesus…blah…Water…blah…Father…blah…
He is the Baker - we are the pastries…blah…
christ…blah…Resurrection…blah…Lamb…blah…Scripture …blah…
There are no theists on operating tables.
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vas,
science has gaps it will never bridge - which you illustrate by your dedication and resulting gaps and non answers
when it comes to conveniences and new uses of God's creation - science does wow us
when you turn the corner and ask science or Vas, "what is truth" -
"where did we come from" -
"what is right and moral" -
"where are we going" -
science and Vas crashes
at that point science and Vas come to a fork in the road - and take it
either science Vas, Vas science - is honest and admits it/he has no answer and is not God
(I'm trying to imagine you being that honest - imagination fail)
or science/Vas pontificates
with some form of the lie
cloaked in a dissertation wilderness of full-bloom foliage dissemination wording
like a double chocolate sunday in a bananna forest
or the prating arrogance and ignorance of blasphemous ridicule - said ridicule of what is not known or understood
but a poor man with a modicum of understanding...can find them (and you) out - hmmm...el fako senor
but science is not God - it can't give you the answers you don't have, claim you do, claim you gave but didn't...long, long, ago
and far, far away - before time began,
before Vas even tried out the high chair,
titrated and evoluted to the risen state of self-propelled proud Canadian
^ Still spouting pure fiction that has been thoroughly refuted
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts.
There are no theists on operating tables.
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vas and All,
keep in mind that the atheist "chomper" is not sure of anything - not sure of anything that's true or false.
he gives no reasoning to back up his statements - so he is asking you (or I) to accept his pontification with blind faith
his statements stemming from "no faith" as being true - I guess "because I say so" (to paraphrase the decree of Vas)
he invites us all into his life of doubt - not knowing what is, what to do, if what I did...is right - or why
the things he is doing or has done or will do he is not sure of - neither the things he is saying...admittedly - he's given no examples
he gives no reason - no truth - no facts - no proof - but he throws firebrands, arrows and death...and "chomps"
he doesn't know where he's come from, where he's going, right or wrong (if "what he likes" is right will he allow everybody that latitude?)
I guess this impresses atheists - but it doesn't impress me
I have a standard of what's True and what's False - the Bible which I have no doubt in - nor...The Shepherd's Voice
I also have no concerns about Vas' contrary view of all that - he's wrong - I have no doubt
I accept the Bible as True - Jesus The Way, The Truth, The Life - The Bible "God Breathed" "Living" "The Word of God"
the earth is God's Footstool - Vas is on it, doesn't know what he's on or what he's under, Who's the potter, who's the clay
it's tragic
but Vas wants it that way -
and...he can have it
Fonzie is the perfect example of irrational: repeating the same task over and over expecting a different result. The fact that a different result never happens actually qualifies as proof his god doesn't exist. Irony can be a beautiful thing.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vas,
wow
you sound pretty sure of all this - as if, bored with...and having left the moorings of "scientific method" - have sailed out with faith to fill the gap
but...faith in what Vas? how do you know these things? who told you? or did you discern them in yourself, in your spirit, your heart of hearts?
did you tell them to yourself? can you counsel yourself?
i.e., (to paraphrase) "this is the way it is" (has Vas come out to play?)
he's "the perfect example" (and I thought perfection was not in us)
the "fact" (a fact is a fact...wow - always true - you can take it to the bank)
he's "expecting (x)" (Vas can divine what I'm expecting - now that's a gift)
this "is proof" (a certain repeatable result? - a Pythagorean thing: i.e., A squared + B squared = C squared!)
now, carry on - what are you sure of that applies to you in real time?
or...it would be perfect irony - me living "rent free" in your head all day long
All lies...projection.
Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
...still quite easy...
I am wasting no time,
Because I am waiting to receive the enternal time of salvation,
Plus Bible ... Jesus ... Truth ... Life ... Word...
There are no theists on operating tables.
Vas,
if "understanding" is a waste of time
I wonder what you consider productive
I look at the question of scientific gaps
such as: what is right, what is wrong
why are we here - how do we help
whence did we come - where do we go - what do we do
but with you - hiding behind the no-faith tree of atheism
chomping on something
the news is: "he's wasting our time - I chomped on that already"
the Vaster is hosting a sampler of what the atheist considers a "waste of time"
a showcase of the atheist' empty suit
the "smoke and mirrors" of atheism
the "no reason" reason
the "take it from me" that represents true "faith in nothingness"
the essence of "diversion from basic questions of life"
the distraction of sarcastic pomp
the chomposity of dismissive whateverism
the "deep thought" that isn't there
All lies...fiction...projection.
Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
There are no theists on operating tables.
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Bob,
In Daniel 2 Nebuchadnezzar had a dream. He wanted to make sure he got the right interpretation - so he required those who were going to interpret the dream to give him the dream as well. They stalled. Don't you know you couldn't "stump the band" in the sense that if the king had laid out a dream, any dream - they could have come up with an interpretation, but would it be right? . Nebuchadnezzar had the right idea though - make them come up with the dream itself - that would show they are qualified to give an interpretation.
The Word of God said man's life is like a vapor - you could say even like a dream quickly gone. Since it's here already and we're experiencing the dream of life - there are a ton of interpretations. But no interpreter has come up with the dream itself (life itself) to prove his credentials to interpret life - except God. There are all kinds of interpretations - how do we know which one is right? Through faith in the One Who Made the Dream itself.
It's efficient - you "know" things by having faith in the one telling or teaching you things. If you have faith in God and the Word of God - things are revealed from the heavenly realm that you would never know. If you are "born anew" you are given the promised Gift of The Holy Spirit which reveals the thoughts of God and enables you to know the Master's Voice.
I'd really like to hear from you again Bob - are you still leaning against the same tree?
The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts.
There are no theists on operating tables.
lol I've been so incredibly successful here that the irrational fool is now doing my job for me. Sweet.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Bob,
The way you frame this focuses on "experiences" "feelings". That's not where it's at with faith. How do you think the apostle Paul was "feeling" after he had been stoned and left for dead - or was in prison (no TV BTW) for an extended period of time. The Word of God is Living and Active and able to produce faith in the hearers - a faith that can see beyond feelings and experiences as well as the disfavor of mankind.
You continue in your reasoning to question how someone can discount the shipwreck of other's faith. This brings up faith in man. If you are focused on mankind, have fear of man, have confidence in the thinking of man - then I agree this would be quite a blow. I don't have that focus, fear or confidence. The fear of man lays a snare - and you illustrate that peril.
As far as "handling the truth" (a quote from a scripted movie delivered by a movie star). Again you cite the works and productions of man - which are a big deal to you. Is this where you find your "truth" - from movies? A lot of people quote from movies these days - again I'm not impressed.
What if I paraded all the "movie stars", "writers", and "producers" that shipwrecked life in general - committed suicide, etc., and used that against your great source of man's idea of "truth"? Maybe you couldn't handle that truth. Anyway, the fact is: Jesus IS The Way, The Truth, and The Life. Noone comes to the Father except by Him.
The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to continue fruitlessly responding to old posts.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Victory!
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"Butter,
if you Know God - and rightly understand the Word of God - It IS Perfect, All True and Right "
Lols....
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
A-Ex,
Not sure what you mean by "confirmation bias" - but I do believe the Word of God totally. It is the "Living Word of God" - able to Prove Itself, able to Define Itself, able to Produce Faith in the hearers (I haven't seen them here). That may be what what you are defining.
Could you describe the atheist "confirmation bias"? Could you indicate (other than decrying faith in God) where it would lead fellow atheists to the "happy hunting ground" if not hereafter at least here?
A confirmation bias is a tendency to see clarification of pre-existing ideas in new evidence. Everyone has confirmation biases and waves them about all the time, including scientists in dogmatic moments. For this reason I would argue rationalism and empiricism together comprise the best way to approach what is more or less true. Generally, I would argue any person who is absolutely convinced of any particular thing is believing irrationally. But as long as you're not calling for the death of unbelievers Fonzie, I'm not particularly interested in changing your world view. My entire family shares it. There are scarier things in the world than love of Jesus.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
So returneth the maskéd McNinja,
With fresh haggis spiced lightly with ginge-a,
To put in the bowl
Of the Dishonest Troll,
And coax him back in from the fringe-a.
And yet, it was still quite easy...
There are no theists on operating tables.
Hey A-Ex,
Your answer here is the first real reply I've had in a long time. It's interesting you say we all have confirmation biases - which is probably true. Having grown up in a Christian family I had a lot of things hard to let go - but they became obvious untruths so I experienced the difficulty adjusting.
Another thing that really interests me in this is that everything we "know" involves faith in something or somebody. The faith that I have in Scripture and God and Jesus was at one time a fragile thing - but has grown as I see it all and experiene it as more and more true and real. My faith in man has diminished. My basis for evaluating everything is based in the Word of God. It's interesting how faith plays a fundamental role in "who" and "what" we know. I believe Christ is Alive, Living in Me (as promised in Scripture), and thus I have "live support" in "real time". I know you don't share this but I'm trying to explain how it "works for me".
I appreciate your tolerance and lack of ridiule. I know you won't get much support from the masses on that.
For those who are neither brainwashed nor trolls, but are interested in learning something:
"Another thing that really interests me in this is that everything we "know" involves faith in something or somebody."
This really isn't true. All knowledge stems from faith in oneself above and beyond everything. Faith isn't required for any real and applicable knowledge.
I don't need faith to know about gravity or evolution or life or thought or time or any other useable knowledge. All of it can be tested, predictions made and verified. Attempts to disprove fail. The knowledge gained in such fashion can be passed on to future generations and built upon.
Except that you must have faith in your own existence and your perceptions of all that is not you, without which everything is meaningless. If you don't have faith in your own perceptions, then a demonstration of gravity behaving as predicted is irrelevant and uninteresting. If you don't have faith in your own existence, then all is called into question and nothing matters.
You can have knowledge that you simply have faith in yet remains useful, if you're lazy and never test that knowledge. Never question it and never seek out conflicting evidence. Most people are indeed guilty of this. Read something in a textbook and simply take it on faith. Countless scientists have knowledge they never tested, because that knowledge applies to fields they have no interest in. Indeed everyone believes something they never tested personally, for the simple reason that we don't have the time to test everything billions of people have learned over a hundred thousand years. Not even a small fraction of it.
That's why so many people are religious. They just read something in a book they are told is true, and believe it. Never test it, never question it. It's a necessary side effect of a quality of intelligence which is capable of advancing technologically as we have.
The trick is that with science, even if you don't test it personally; you can. And if you do, you will find that evolution happens. The big bang was an event, if poorly named. That entropy is the prevalent force in the universe. That life is undefinably incredible, yet quite obviously not something that was planned and designed.
When you attempt to test religion, it always fails. It always makes grand claims that are impossible. It often contradicts itself, and always flies in the face of testing and prediction. Only if you do not have faith in yourself can you believe such claims.
The grand irony of faith is that to have faith in gods, you must lack faith in yourself and your perceptions.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
There are no theists on operating tables.
^ A pathetic fool continues to prove he's a pathetic fool. lol. Fonzie and Brian37 both are more intelligent than zarathustra. Embarrassing.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vas,
I appreciate your time giving an extensive answer. "Faith in someone or something" would apply to you and your view wouldn't it? You are building on your faith in yourself and you are "someone".
It's true I don't see how you could start at any other point than faith in yourself to determine what you're looking for in life. I was a heathen and was wowed by the wisdom of men, science, what most people think, "believe in yourself", "love yourself", a false idea of Christianity being rules and ceremonies, etc. etc.
I never was able to honestly have much faith in myself however. And in fact the ground was moving under me with the bipolar - and when I turned the corner I saw my perceptions had been grandiose and wrong - so how could I trust myself? Fortunately, I had already found something that was "rock solid" and not moving - the Word of God. In and out of sanity I kept reading my Bible seeing more and more how true and right and real it was and is.
Your science was experimenting on me - as if all the world was a big nail for science's hammer - electroshock treatments. I woke up not knowing where I was for a while but the problem was not solved but it was held off with heavy sleepy drugs. I kept working and dealing with this new normal which re-occured about every 2 years. I read a book "Moodswing" which had just came out and was featured at the library and found what my real diagnosis was - bipolar not schitzophrenic. I took the book in and told them to put me on lithium - but no, this was foreign to this doctor who soon retired.
I went off the med. 9 months later it started coming on and I realized it. I started taking the old med but was falling behind on my mood level. I had a vivid dream - that I died in the hands of this Jewish doctor - the old psy doc that went back to the '40's with his strategy. In this vivid dream I died and he became a Christian. I entered the hospital voluntarily but made him agree to not give me shock treatments. He agreed.
He gave me more of the old med than I knew the body would take. I was on the ground in about 3 days - but I had good insurance. He came in and said, I think you're jumpy, you need shock treatmatents". I said, "I'm ok and you promised me". He then went on a mission to get me to sign for treatment. I wouldn't. He said he would commit me to the state hospital then they would do whatever if I wouldn't sign ( a lie - not possible because I had done nothing that warranted). He had a nurse take me into the storeroom and try to flirt with me and get me to sign - I didn't fall for it. He had my dad come in and sign (my dad didn't know what was best - he was the professional).
There was a black dude in the same room that was a cool guy. He said, "you don't have to do this, man - this is America - tell them you won't go". I told them exactly that. Later the psy dock came in mad and said, "I thought we had you scheduled..." I said, "you gave me a choice, commit me". He said, mad as hell, "I didn't give you a choice, your EST will start Wed." I was sitting there reading my Bible. I looked him in the eye and said, "Ok, but I've had a dream. And in that dream I die at your hands in a shock treatment, and I'm hoping and praying it happens." He jumped back and said - "no shock treatment!" He came in the next day and said, "I want to remind you there will be no shock treatment". He released me at the end of the week and I went back to work.
A new doc came to town from a big city. He called me and said I had been misdiagnosed - I was bipolar. I needed to be on lithium. Yeah. No more problems for over 35 years. I take a ultra small dose of it now - llke Kay Redfield Jamison said in one of her books. I just need very little. It's in the water down in an area in Texas and there are no cases (if you have faith in the book Moodswing).
So I have some gratitude for science advances. I enjoy this computer. But I've learned I can't trust my own perception of things totally - nor theirs - nor science's - nor anybody's. I haven't however found anything in the Word of God that isn't solid rock true and real. The Presence of God and Jesus is real to me - and the Word of God is true. And that is my ruling principle.
I have abandoned my heathen faiths - wisdom of men, love yourself, believe in yourself, be swayed by what most think, etc. I have found rest in being mastered by Jesus Christ and comfort and strength and navigation through this maze in His Living Presence.
Unfortunately you were a victim of the least understood science: medicine. It is in the worst shape because the procedures necessary to advance understanding happen to be unethical. As horrible as your experience was, the steps necessary to advance medicine to vastly improve diagnosis and treatment would require experimenting on people. As much as I would love us to have that knowledge, I don't think I could condone the methods necessary to acquire it at a faster pace.
But the consequence of that is effectively butchery, as the problems the plague our species are manifest in number, and often complex. Hell, the only reason medicine has advanced sufficiently to mend bones and perform transplants is because our own bodies do most of the work.
We've a lot further to go in medicine than in almost every other field of science. Psychology in particular has a history of horrors, as the tools necessary to begin to understand the mind only recently became available, and without those tools a number of methods that can only be described as torture became mainstream. It'll likely be decades before we can treat psychological problems the way we can mend a broken arm.
But we have managed to muddle our way through to some effective treatments despite our blundering, and as a result you were lucky enough to get a treatment that worked; at least to the degree necessary to keep you out of the hospital.
And you shouldn't trust anything blindly, not even science. I myself have long questioned some mainstream beliefs in the scientific community, because I wasn't satisfied with the evidence. But I actually looked at the evidence, and researched the subject for years. I didn't just read a couple paragraphs on the subject and make a conclusion. Science takes work. It builds on itself. Religion is easy, and remains the same forever. It doesn't grow.
But you don't have to abandon religion entirely to embrace science. Religion itself has contributed significantly to science. It can easily be argued it has been a bigger detriment to science in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't erase the contributions of religious scientists.
One thing science will never do is destroy belief in god or gods, nor will it ever attempt to. People might use science to point out flaws in specific religions, but eventually a religion will come along that actually is consistent and has no vulnerabilities in logic and reason, which people won't be able to use science against.
In the interim, however, science is under assault simply because it doesn't mesh with literal interpretations of the bible and other 'holy' books. But we need science. Without science we'd still be migrating for food, dying of simple things like broken bones, and being hunted by predators. Until the inevitable disaster that wiped us out hit and we went extinct. With science we've become top of the food chain, mastered gravity to such a degree we've sent people to a moon (soon to a whole different planet) and a probe (debatably) outside the solar system. With science we will colonise space and continue to advance beyond what we can comprehend. Without it we will die.
So believe in god if you like, but don't attack science along the way. It isn't necessary. It isn't your enemy.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Vastet,
I am getting finally a totally different impression of you from this answer - in fact we see several things alike from different viewpoints obviously. I accept the existence of the different bases of viewpoints and don't have either a arrogant or submissive position to them. So there's no attack really from either side - you are secure in your base of operations and I in mine and finally it seems we understand and accept that. I'm not thinking or trying to strong-arm anybody to my view nor deny it which it seems you can handle.
I don't see science any different than my carpenter work - trying different approaches to problems. Some things work out and others bomb - and so it develops. Of course in medicine it's not boards that get cut wrong but people - as a saying I've heard on the job goes: "we recut they bury their mistakes". Probably most of them (my doctor I'm sure is this way, I've even done construction work for him) - most doctors want to get it right and try things in the process to arrive at the right. I see science that way - advancing, feeling its way, etc. The fruit of the work of many result in Edison's inventions and now have developed into LEDs and microprocessors.
If you ask science about integrity and morality and life after death - I think science might venture something on the subject but actually they would have to push the issue to think they have the answer. I don't worry about the answer they come up with because I don't have that kind of faith in science. I have faith in their microprocessors and transistors but not their ventures into interpreting the dream of life. They can't tell me my dream - therefore they aren't qualified to interpret (Daniel 2).
So I would frame this, like this: we are working, experimenting, assessing each from our base of operations - which is the "base" we have faith and confidence in - and moving forward at different rates and different ways. But we have different bases of confidence and a different basis of operation.
I would probably veer trying to describe your base of operations, but my attempt would be something like you have ultimate confidence in yourself and your assessment of everything. You take points and proof where you find them and assess them still from your own view, your ultimate galaxy of experiences, knowledge, and sensors which you process in your living way however that happens. But you don't have a faith in a heavenly intelligence for that decision. I do.
Up until the point of decision I see myself very similar to you - but beyond my base I see above and beyond me a Infinite Intelligence and before me the Living Word of God which gives me the ultimate answer as I escape from my "heathen faiths" in the wisdom of men, "what most people think", "ideas just flying around". I come into a different harbor.
I don't feel threatened by science any more than other carpenters. Though I might have been at one time I'm not bitter either at the experiment on me. Like you said in essence; it was a case of "the good with the bad".
A big difference I see I would share with you concerning the difference in my field of work, my galaxy and yours is this: it seems you are much more alone. I take great strength and comfort and joy in The Lord Living in me; the Presence of God with me. This is very real with me and I'm not threatened by anything because of the way it has come: that God would send His Son to die for me, then raise Him to an Indestructible Life settles all argument about the Truth of it - and the question of, "will He Keep His Promises?" My view is that what I'm building on is "Rock Solid".