It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Offline And i didn't say they claimed that, but in a global context, it is a bit of a stretch to refer to that way.
No, what is a stretch is discounting an ancient book's truthfulness because of such a detail.
If I said, hey when you come to visit me in my home town, turn left by the big green tractor, I am in no way claiming that this tractor is the biggest in the world, and no other tractor on the planet is bigger. So when driving to my place would you look for the biggest tractor in the world, or would you look for the biggest one in my town?
I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.
Wow, that was big of you.
Not really, based on all the references. They never compared it against 'eternity', but rather against human life spans.So you are straining to ignore the evidence that your belief is mistaken.
Based on "all" references? Or just that one that is repeated in the gospels? And is that one reference really referring to the same thing as Revelation? How can you be sure?
But if the conflicting stories and contradictions in the Book were put there to weed out the gullible and select for those who actually used their 'god-given' reasoning powers, then I am not and you are.
So God only saves the rational from Hell, and leaves the trusting to burn? That is an interesting idea, but what supports it? Nothing.
Not really making any reference to that idea, simply that any such being would have infinite ability to fools us, and we would have no way of detecting it. It is pure wishful thinking that such a being must 'necessarily' be 'good'.
He would have the infinite ability to whatever He pleases, but why assume things that are contrary to what He has revealed to us of Himself?
It is not wishful thinking to believe God is good. He told us He is good, in the bible. If you want to accuse anyone of pulling some concept of God out of their buttocks then blame the authors of the bible, but not me. I didn't create my image of God. I got it from the bible.
PS. I think it's hilarious that there is a ad for a Christian dating site on this forum. lol
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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Offline @music: I love your example, it is a perfect analogy. I think I'll keep it around for future use!
I would investigate the woobly beast claims. If then I discovered that:
1. no-one had any pictures or physical of the woobly beast even though believers say he shows up (invisibly) and eats people every day, and
2. the only people who actually saw the woobly beast had been dead for 2,000 years, and
3. belief in the woobly beast correlated with parental belief in the woobly beast, and
4. a great many individuals and even entire cultures got by just find without believing in the beast, or carrying rocks, and
5. the planet is full of different, contradictory claims like, the zardfinks say only green rocks keep the beast at bay, but the finkzards say only *red* rocks keep the beast at bay and the Latter Day Zardfinkzards think you don't need rocks, you just need to believe in the woobly beast and imagine rocks clicking (but don't ever, ever put your hipple-snoz into another person's ussy-wiggle or the beast will eat you)
....I would probably drop the rocks and do something useful with my hands.
As for the Revelation 144,000, don't convince me, convince the 7.3 million Jehovah's Witnesses who believe it does indeed say such a thing! After all, the fact that they believe it is strong evidence to support their conclusion, right?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline Quote:I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.Wow, that was big of you.
Funny how he is willing to change his mind when evidence is presented contrary to his initial position. Does it make you dizzy?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:
1. I have a good reason.
2. Lots of other people do.
3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.
4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.
Am I missing anything?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:
1. I have a good reason.
2. Lots of other people do.
3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.
4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.
Am I missing anything?
In a word? Yes.
You are missing a great deal.
1. Is not a reason.
2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.
3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?
4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.
I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.
You want examples?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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Offline Musicdude wrote:Quote:I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.Wow, that was big of you.
Funny how he is willing to change his mind when evidence is presented contrary to his initial position. Does it make you dizzy?
And it shows that most of the reasons he considers the book of Revelation a hoax are invalid, and based on his lack of research on the subject.
What else has he assumped and presupposed without really looking into it?
Most of the arguments against the biblical accounts can be refuted with little effort.
Not to come down on him, because he is not exactly alone in his unsubtantiated dismissal of the bible.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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Offline jcgadfly wrote:So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:
1. I have a good reason.
2. Lots of other people do.
3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.
4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.
Am I missing anything?
In a word? Yes.
You are missing a great deal.
1. Is not a reason.
2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.
3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?
4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.
I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.
You want examples?
Only if you have examples that could come from no place but God - none of this "God healed me of cancer after I went to the hospital and had surgery and chemotherapy." or God saved my soul - I know because I asked him to and felt good afterward so he must have."
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline mellestad wrote:Musicdude wrote:Quote:I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.Wow, that was big of you.
Funny how he is willing to change his mind when evidence is presented contrary to his initial position. Does it make you dizzy?
And it shows that most of the reasons he considers the book of Revelation a hoax are invalid, and based on his lack of research on the subject.
What else has he assumped and presupposed without really looking into it?
Most of the arguments against the biblical accounts can be refuted with little effort.
Not to come down on him, because he is not exactly alone in his unsubtantiated dismissal of the bible.
*whoosh*
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline I hope you come up with a response to the woobly beast though, because from my standpoint that entire exchange is solid gold.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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Offline mellestad wrote:Musicdude wrote:Quote:I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.Wow, that was big of you.
Funny how he is willing to change his mind when evidence is presented contrary to his initial position. Does it make you dizzy?
And it shows that most of the reasons he considers the book of Revelation a hoax are invalid, and based on his lack of research on the subject.
What else has he assumped and presupposed without really looking into it?
Most of the arguments against the biblical accounts can be refuted with little effort.
Not to come down on him, because he is not exactly alone in his unsubtantiated dismissal of the bible.
And you're not alone in your unabashed worship of that book. Since you missed mellestad's point what's yours?
It also shows that the original creators of the religions could create a good lie. Unfortunately, they left maintenance of that lie to guys like you.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline Musicdude wrote:jcgadfly wrote:So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:
1. I have a good reason.
2. Lots of other people do.
3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.
4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.
Am I missing anything?
In a word? Yes.
You are missing a great deal.
1. Is not a reason.
2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.
3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?
4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.
I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.
You want examples?
Only if you have examples that could come from no place but God - none of this "God healed me of cancer after I went to the hospital and had surgery and chemotherapy." or God saved my soul - I know because I asked him to and felt good afterward so he must have."
Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?
How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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Offline Musicdude wrote:mellestad wrote:Musicdude wrote:Quote:I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.Wow, that was big of you.
Funny how he is willing to change his mind when evidence is presented contrary to his initial position. Does it make you dizzy?
And it shows that most of the reasons he considers the book of Revelation a hoax are invalid, and based on his lack of research on the subject.
What else has he assumped and presupposed without really looking into it?
Most of the arguments against the biblical accounts can be refuted with little effort.
Not to come down on him, because he is not exactly alone in his unsubtantiated dismissal of the bible.
*whoosh*
Um....no. I got what you were saying.
Evidence is not proof. It will take more than evidence to cause me to change my mind about atheism. It will take proof, and that proof will have to be more compelling than the proof I have for theism.
I got what you were implying. I was just making another point about his post.
And he didn't change his mind about anything important. If he can't bash revelation for that one reason, then I'm sure he'll quickly find another. He has no desire to consider the possibility that the bible is true. And so he'll find reason after reason to not believe it. Me pointing out that one of those reasons isn't valid, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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Offline jcgadfly wrote:Musicdude wrote:jcgadfly wrote:So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:
1. I have a good reason.
2. Lots of other people do.
3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.
4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.
Am I missing anything?
In a word? Yes.
You are missing a great deal.
1. Is not a reason.
2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.
3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?
4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.
I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.
You want examples?
Only if you have examples that could come from no place but God - none of this "God healed me of cancer after I went to the hospital and had surgery and chemotherapy." or God saved my soul - I know because I asked him to and felt good afterward so he must have."
Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?
How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?
Perhaps if you did nothing to make it happen yourself...
No "I needed $1000 so I prayed and asked God for it. Then I went out and sold my car for $1000. Praise God for giving me the money."
How many times do you have to do something before you believe God didn't do it?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline @music: I love your example, it is a perfect analogy. I think I'll keep it around for future use!
I would investigate the woobly beast claims. If then I discovered that:
1. no-one had any pictures or physical of the woobly beast even though believers say he shows up (invisibly) and eats people every day, and
2. the only people who actually saw the woobly beast had been dead for 2,000 years, and
3. belief in the woobly beast correlated with parental belief in the woobly beast, and
4. a great many individuals and even entire cultures got by just find without believing in the beast, or carrying rocks, and
5. the planet is full of different, contradictory claims like, the zardfinks say only green rocks keep the beast at bay, but the finkzards say only *red* rocks keep the beast at bay and the Latter Day Zardfinkzards think you don't need rocks, you just need to believe in the woobly beast and imagine rocks clicking (but don't ever, ever put your hipple-snoz into another person's ussy-wiggle or the beast will eat you)
....I would probably drop the rocks and do something useful with my hands.
I hope the whooly beast gets you. 
As for the Revelation 144,000, don't convince me, convince the 7.3 million Jehovah's Witnesses who believe it does indeed say such a thing! After all, the fact that they believe it is strong evidence to support their conclusion, right?
They also believe there is no hell, even though the bible uses the word many times and even describes it several other times. I wouldn't call JW's shinging examples of scriptural literalists. The bible proves them wrong. They contradict themseleves. They say they believe the bible, but they deny what it clearly says.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
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JcGadfly,
I have been rescued from the fear of death by God's CPR - grace in Christ. As far as those you mentioned, to whom sin and death are no concern - the dirt is no burden to those in the grave. It is said a drowning man is asleep - it's when you start to revive him he feels sharp pain.
As for the question you hesitate to ask: for you eternal life would have to be by definition rather than imagined - like vector calculus. You couldn't diagram and solve it. Here it is: Eternal life is knowing the living Christ.
Death is being overcome by Life - His Life. My tent is going downhill, but the treasure inside is being renewed and getting brighter.
Atheistextreemist,
I think it's because atheists are different - you can't attribute things one says and does to another. Like Christians.
You've been rescued from the fear by what instilled the fear in you to begin with? Isn't that like being rescued from addiction by the pusher who keeps selling you drugs?
Death is a natural part of things - looking at that provides no fear. It is only when the man-made element of religion is added that the fear comes in.
What I was asking you before was when you got saved - I still expect you to tell me that you've been saved for 47 years and you are only 47.
Again, why do you still fear what supposedly has been overcome? Is it doubt or a defense mechanism?
As for what you told AE - you are correct. We are responsible for what we say and do. We can't pass it off on a God or a devil as the Christians do. It must be nice to not have to take responsibility for one's actions.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
But he didn't attribute anything another christian said to you. He was talking about your post, which he summed up quite accurately.
Lol. That is a shining example of what I was complaining about earlier. Our little Chic tract.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Hi BobSpence1,
I just enjoyed a little science - thought of you:
http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm
This thread reminds me of this, right down to all the lovely unctuousness.
Fascinating, isn't it. All those things that don't even get mentioned in Genesis, IOW, the bulk of the Universe. They don't even qualify as things to light the heavens, since they are totally invisible to the eye.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
"Give it a think", you say ? Yes ! Please do !
Yes, I was.
Why is it so absurd?
Is it that it's so bold as to predict the future with a lot of detail?
If that's all, then all it would take is for the predictions to come true (including all the details) and it would no longer be absurd, right?
Or is it all the colorful symbolism, the four-headed creatures with 10 horns and all that stuff? You do realize those were not real, don't you? They were just a vision that God put in John's head, and God explained to him what they all meant in the literal sense. Not everything in Revelation is allegorical though. Only the parts that are explained as allegory.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Of course all the fanciful imagery doesn't help give it credibility, reinforces the suspicion it was all dreamed up in some sort of drug-induced fantasy.
Then where various more specific things are mentioned, such as numbers of people involved, they are so clearly based on the population sizes in that region at that time, and totally out of whack with the population levels of today.
Other parts are just so obscure , without any obvious reference, they lend themselves to after-the-fact matching to a whole range of possible actual events, like most such 'predictions', such as those of Nostradamus.
It was a few years ago now that I heard it read, so I can't remember all the details that had me face-palming, but my final impression was that it was far more pathetic than I had assumed.
The basic problem with all such 'predictions' in the Bible is they clearly envisaged the return etc to be something that was expected within the lifetimes of many of Jesus' followers:
Mark 9:1: " And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
There are many passages which convey this same impression, including Revelation itself:
Rev 1.1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
Rev 1.3: for the time is at hand.
And yes I have heard many of the attempts to redefine the words in such passages to try and make them credible, but the simplest explanation is most likely correct - they really believed this, and they were wrong, just as has every 'the end is nigh' prediction since.
I'm sorry, only a committed (and naive) believer could read that stuff without a continuous LOL.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I know you said it's been a while and you don't remember all the details. But I'd like to hear specifically what numbers you are referring to here.
There are enough parts that are extremely specific, and since this is not a random bunch of predictions as Nostradamus', but an entire revelation to be taken as a whole, the specific and obscure taken together, and if they all are fulfilled, they would prove their own validity.
If everything in that book were to come true in your lifetime, would it change your mind about Jesus Christ?
Were you ever a Christian before? Because revelation requires some understanding about Christianity to really be fully understood. It's no coincidence that it's the last book in the bible. It needs to be read in context with the rest of the bible.
Yeah, I'm looking into the verses in gospels, I don't really have an answer for that right now. I do know that the "kingdom of God" is not heaven. It's the body of believers. And that exists now. But that probably is not sufficient to convince an atheist. As far as the verses in Revelation are concerned, I would ask this question. What is "soon" or "near" to God? With regard to eternity, if His return was in a 1000 years, that would be soon, wouldn't it?
Not to invoke Mr. Pascal, but you'd better hope you're right. It's gonna suck for you if you're wrong.
You'd better be truly convinced that there is no Yahweh, and not just on the popular bandwagon. Because your friends who all agree with you aren't responsible for the decisions you make. You are, and if anyone is ever held accountable for your decisions (which I know you don't believe) it will be you. So YOU had better be sure. How sure are you? With the knowledge you have right now, are you willing to bet your life? If there is an eternal state, are you willing to gamble that as well? If you are, so be it. If not, then maybe you have some more research to do, and I don't mean re-reading The God Delusion for the 10th time.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Wrong. God does not do for us, what we are too lazy to do for ourselves. He does what we are incapable of. And helping us with our daily routine is the least of it, (though I agree it seems to be the emphasis of modern Christian preaching.)
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I can't tell when a theist is benig ironic. My irony meter is broken.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
But that attitude that you are displaying right in this post, "why assume anything will happen after death?" is extremely rare.
First you assume there is no evidence. If that is true, then the majority of the people on this earth are highly irrational people. Which means you are probably irrational like the rest of humanity, and really shouldn't leave matters of eternal life or death up to your own lacking rationality. Pssst....This is where the arrogance of atheism comes in. They really do think they are the exception to the rule, and smarter and more rational than everybody else.
Second, the fact that the majority of mankind believes in life after death is evidence enough to pursue an answer. Also creation it'self is evidence.
And you say God did nothing for us? He put in us the inclination that there is life after death, and only a few (like yourself) deny it over and over again until you can ignore your natural intuition. But it still testifies to a Creator. You just don't listen to it anymore. It is very unnatural for humans to believe in nothing. That's why this whole fascade that there is no reason whatsoever to even consider the possibility of a Creator, is nothing more than a debate tactic that doesn't work.
Inside this very small roped off area of cyber-space where Atheism rules, and Theism is the very unpopular second choice at best, you can create the illusion that the idea of God is preposterous. But anywhere else in the world, the tables would be turned, and your assertions would be the preposterous ones. And the burden of proof would be on you. A burden you can't carry, by the way. Evidence for God abounds, if you simply open your eyes and your mind. It's not my job to prove it to anyone. It's my job to tell you the truth about what God has taught me. After you have been informed of who Jesus Christ is, and what He did for you, and what you must do, you must then make a decision. I can't make it for you. If I could, I would. That is the end of my responsibility to you as a fellow human. It is not required or expected or even possible for me to convince you by arguing. It doesn't work that way.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
What are humans incapable of? After all, they created the god under discussion (along with many others).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Paying the debt they owe their Creator for blatently breaking His laws.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You mean the laws they wrote and attributed to him (that being they created)? Or did we break laws against natural selection (I don't think we have yet)?
Also, in the chrinicle that they wrote about the being they created, said being breaks those laws with impunity. Why should I be held accountable for laws he's incpable of keeping?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The only numbers which I can find now which could possibly match what I remembered are in 7:1-8, about the 12000 from each of the 12 tribes. I amy have read something in another part of the Bible,
Well of course. If Jesus appeared in front of me riding a flaming horse and the Earth erupting around him, or anything like that, sure I would have to rethink. But the real question is there any reason whatsoever to take that sort of thing seriously??
Skimming thru it just then looking for those numbers just reminded me how much of it is like that.
Then when you realize all this action is taking place within a tiny fraction of the Earth around the Middle East, they even refer to the Euphrates as a 'great river' - these guys had no idea about the Amazon, obviously.
They continually refer to cities that no longer exist, like Babylon, which were important in that time.
You put it all together and it is clearly written by people who had no concept of the true scale of the Earth, let alone the Universe and what the stars really were, that only a naive dumbass could take this crap seriously.
Never took any of that stuff seriously.
Of course it can only begin to 'make sesne' within the context of the rest of the Bible. But since the rest of the Bible is mostly nonsense, that doesn't lend it any credibility.
Oh Puh-lease, what if you should have been following Shiva all this time? What if God was just stringing us along and he's gonna say "Ha ha! Fooled Ya!!"
You have absolutely no way to know what is true once you buy into the idea of a being with that much power.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
He exists or He doesn't.
You start your argument with the assumption that He does exist, and you attempt to refute my answer under the assumption that He doesn't exist. That doesn't work from a rational or theological perspective.
If God doesn't exist, then of course my answer is not only false, but completely irrelevant. I thought we were arguing logically from the assumption that He does exist.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Your entire point is "my worldview is popular, so you are wrong...even though my worldview has no actual evidence."
I don't know what to say to you. Lots of stupid ideas are popular, but that doesn't make them true. In Africa female circumcision is popular...does that mean we should all start doing it to uor daughters? After all, it seems preposterous to us, and they think evidence abounds for the practice! Someday you will understand and convert to female circumsicion, I have faith.
Besides, are all of those Japanese people denying their natural tendancies? Or maybe the Swedes, they must just be ignoring their inner selves. Actually, by your metric I could use that as a 'proof' that atheism is true! Most Japanese people don't believe in God, therefore God isn't real! Or at least, he isn't real when you are in Japan? As belief in the afterlife decreases, does that mean God is dying? I a geographical area where belief in an afterlife is < 50% does that mean it doesn't exist?
Music, you don't even have an argument. You aren't even trying.
I asked you before, I'll ask again: Pretend, for a minute, that not everyone believes and feels what you believe and feel (It might hurt, but try!). With that 'assumption', how can you show that your beliefs are correct? All I ever get is, "my brand of protestant Christianity is popular within my social group" and "I 'feel' that it is correct" and "you really believe what I believe, you just don't know it!".
The only way humans have to figure out what is real and what isn't real is evidence. So, show me why we should believe what you believe. For extra credit, tell me why your argument is better than all the other theists who also make magic claims, but think you are wrong an will be sent to their hell.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Lol. Usually it makes sense to assume something doesn't exist until there is evidence to be shown that it exists. Otherwise, you have to believe in Warflboogeryipkikies. After all, no-one has shown they don't eixst, right?
Oh, and for Revelation numbers how about the 144,000 that will be taken to heaven? Rev 7:3-8, Rev 14:1, Rev 14:3-5. That is why the Jehova Witnesses believe only 144,000 people get to go to the main part of heaven. Revelation specifically says so.
Like Bib (Edit: haha, Bob) said, it makes more sense when you put it into context of population numbers of the time. Now, 144,000 is nothing.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Obviously I believe there is good reason to believe it, or I wouldn't believe it. Was that rhetorical?
Did Babylon exist even when it was written? I don't believe so. The consensus is that ancient Babylon will be reborn.
Thanks for the compliment.
Did I miss something, or did you not answer this?
Then I'll be screwed too. But that doesn't get you off the hook.
Because power corrupts right? That is a human notion.
Besides if God really was a tyrrant with the power to end your life at His will, wouldn't it make sense to obey Him? I mean if a man had that power over you, you would obey him.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
BS. 144,000 was nothing back then too.
The bible does not say that only 144,000 are going to Heaven. I beg you to prove to me that it does.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
If the overwhelming majority of mankind believed in Warflboogeryipkikies, I would give them a great deal of consideration.
I never said popularity is proof. I said popularity is evidence.
If you visited an alien planet, where humans had never visitted before, and all the inhabitants warned you to lookout for the whoolybeast, and make sure you carried these two stones, and clicked them all the time to ward off the whoolybeast, would you assume there really was a whoolybeast, or would you assume that the entire planet was delusional? I'll bet you'd be clicking those rocks. The fact that the population believes in the whoolybeast and are terrified of it, and considering what is to be lost (i.e. your life) that would be all the evidence you would need to at least temporarily believe, until you are able to do some research and find out for yourself if the whoolybeast is real. There is being skeptical and there is being stupid. Ignoring and treating with complete disprespect the belief of the majority (without any solid proof that they are wrong) is stupid.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Not really. It is keeping with some of the crap in Revelation'
And i didn't say they claimed that, but in a global context, it is a bit of a stretch to refer to that way.
I may concede this - it appears to be just ruins by 140 BCE.
Not really, based on all the references. They never compared it against 'eternity', but rather against human life spans.
So you are straining to ignore the evidence that your belief is mistaken.
Then I'll be screwed too. But that doesn't get you off the hook.
But if the conflicting stories and contradictions in the Book were put there to weed out the gullible and select for those who actually used their 'god-given' reasoning powers, then I am not and you are.
Not really making any reference to that idea, simply that any such being would have infinite ability to fools us, and we would have no way of detecting it. It is pure wishful thinking that such a being must 'necessarily' be 'good'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology