Musicdude wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:

1. I have a good reason.

2. Lots of other people do.

3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.

4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.

Am I missing anything?

 

In a word? Yes.

You are missing a great deal.

 

1. Is not a reason.

2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.

3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?

4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.

 

 

I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.

 

You want examples?

 

Only if you have examples that could come from no place but God - none of this "God healed me of cancer after I went to the hospital and had surgery and chemotherapy." or God saved my soul - I know because I asked him to and felt good afterward so he must have."

 

Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?

How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?

Perhaps if you did nothing to make it happen yourself...

No "I needed $1000 so I prayed and asked God for it. Then I went out and sold my car for $1000. Praise God for giving me the money."

How many times do you have to do something before you believe God didn't do it?

Musicdude wrote:

Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?

How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?

Well, you'd need to document it thoroughly and you'd need to scrupulously include every single time that you ask God for something, including all instances in which you ask and it doesn't happen.  Your study protocol would certainly need to include some sort of mechanism that ensures that you are reporting the failures as well as the successes.  For one thing, it could not include silent prayers; audible prayers only and they would need to be recorded and stored.

I'm not sure how you'd make it double-blind.  For a start, perhaps a team of researchers would be tasked with determining whether or not certain events occurred, without their knowing that these were events for which someone had prayed.  As a sort of control, perhaps some equally improbable events for which you had not prayed should be included in the list of events for which they'd search.

Then, you'd need to find a way to eliminate some of the common "outs" that Christians use, such as "God is not a vending machine".  After all, if the God of the Bible was real, he might not be interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops just to prove himself to a bunch of people who have already decided that his gold standard, faith, isn't good enough.

So, it looks like you've got some work ahead of you.

 

Um, you didn't think we were just going to take you at your word, did you?

jcgadfly wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So, musicdude, the reasons you believe in your God are:

1. I have a good reason.

2. Lots of other people do.

3. There's an old book that's had a lot of copies made from it.

4. He can do what he wants and that scares me.

Am I missing anything?

 

In a word? Yes.

You are missing a great deal.

 

1. Is not a reason.

2. Lot of other people do, is not proof but merely evidence, and I never said otherwise.

3. That's a little simplistic don't you think?

4. That was just a logical conclusion from an assumption that someone else made. I don't believe that and I'm not scared of God.

 

 

I believe in God because when I pray, He answers.

 

You want examples?

 

Only if you have examples that could come from no place but God - none of this "God healed me of cancer after I went to the hospital and had surgery and chemotherapy." or God saved my soul - I know because I asked him to and felt good afterward so he must have."

 

Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?

How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?

Perhaps if you did nothing to make it happen yourself...

No "I needed $1000 so I prayed and asked God for it. Then I went out and sold my car for $1000. Praise God for giving me the money."

How many times do you have to do something before you believe God didn't do it?

 

Ok, here goes. Mods please let me know if this is off-topic and should be taken to a new thread.

 

I am not going to give a lot of specific details, because I don't know that you aren't a stalker. But you'll get the gist of the story anyway.

Plus it's long enough without the details.

 

I was working for an electrical contractor. Started in 1998, and worked there till 2003. It was a good job. Had opportunities for advancement, etc. But the only thing I didn't like about it was the travelling. Now I didn't do a ton of travelling, maybe twice a year for a week or two at a time, max. But even that much was more than I wanted to do. I was not married, had no kids, not even a girlfriend at the time. But I was very involved in my church, and with playing guitar in a Christian band. And travelling took me away from both of those things, and I didn't like that.

Long story short, I decided as far as God was concerned jobs are a dime a dozen, and if I had to choose between my job and my ministry, He would want me to choose my ministry.

Well, the days of not travelling much were coming to an end. I was notified that I was being moved from the maintence department to the construction department, and those guys spent more time out of town than in town. I was not happy about this. I talked and pleaded, and the more I did, the more I could tell that my boss (the vice-president of the company now) was even more determined to make me do this. So I gave up talking to them about it. And I decided that I needed to make a decision about whether my ministry was worth standing up for, even if it meant possibly losing my job.

Now keep in mind, I had not talked to anyone about this. I hadn't even told my boss why I hated travelling so much. (Truth be known, even if I didn't have ministry commitments in town, I still didnt' want to travel, but that is beside the point.) I prayed that afternoon, silently, forming the words in thought only. I told God my situation, and asked Him to show me which road to take. And just that day I had two jobs placed in my inbox. Both were construction jobs which is not normal for me. The first job was actually in town, and the second out of town. So I just for some reason asked God (that some reason was God telling me what to pray for) that if He wanted me to stand up for my ministry even if it meant losing my job, that He would take me off of that first job somehow, where I wouldn't have to work it.

And knowing my bosses as I did after working for them for 6 years, I knew that my main boss was trying to put me in my place, and he was not about to let me off of that job unless he had no other choice.

But I didn't ask him to take me off of the job. That would've been interfering. If this was gonna happen, it would have to be all God, and I wasn't going to influence it at all.

 

So the morning of the job came, and I got to the shop and I couldn't find the other tech I was supposed to go do the job with. So I asked my other boss, and he said that the guy got called out the night before, and ended up working late, so he wouldn't be in until lunch, so he gave me another job to do until lunchtime. So I thought that was a weird answer from God, and I wasn't sure how to take it. He didn't pull me off of the job, He just delayed it. But I tried not to think too much about it, and just went to do the other job. Well, the other job took a lot longer than me or my boss expected, so it was getting close to lunchtime and I wasn't finished yet. So I called my boss and asked him if he wanted me to pull off of this job and go to the originally scheduled job or just stay and finish. He said stay and finish, because that other job got put off until the next day anyway. So the job got delayed again, which puzzled me, but it still wasn't the solid answer I had asked God for. Well, we had some meeting at the shop after work that day. So I pulled into the parking lot after I had finished that other job, and I ran into the guy that I was supposed to do that construction job with, and I just asked him, hey man are we still on for tomorrow? He said, no. Didn't they tell you. They are sending such and such instead. So I wasn't going to that job at all anymore, and through no effort or influence of my own. And then I had my answer.

 

This is only where the story really begins. It's a long story. But the short version doesn't do it justice.

 

So having my answer from God, I had confidence that I should do whatever it takes to not go into construction, even if it meant losing my job, which I hoped wouldn't happen, but I was willing to risk it.

I told my boss that same evening, after the meeting why I didn't want to work construction, and reminded him that a few years back he had told me that if I didn't want to I didn't have to, but he conveniently didn't remember that conversation. But anyway, I told him that I have got commitments here, and in the 6 years I've been employed at this company I have never told you or any other manager "no," but I'm saying it now. I'm not gonna work construction. I am good at maintenance, my customers like me and request me, my direct boss has said that my job reports are the best he's ever seen, and someone has got to do maintenance, so why not continue to let me, and let some of these other guys who actually prefer construction do that work? His answer was "well, you gotta do what you gotta do." And when I could see that he was done talking about it, I told him to have a good day and walked out, and went home because the day was over.

 

The next morning, I didn't go to the shop because I already knew what my job was, so I went straight to my jobsite. And about 9:00 or so, I get a call from my direct boss, and he said he heard about what happened yesterday, and he was sorry it went down like that. And that he hated to see me quit over this. I told him, I'm not planning on quitting. I'm just planning on keeping on doing maintenance like I have been for the last 6 years. He said, well you are kinda painting us into a corner, and I said, no, you are painting me into one. I am just doing my job as usual, I didn't ask for this. My boss told me I didn't have to work construction if I didn't want to, and then turned around without even letting me know and put me on construction. That's not acceptable. He said, well I'll try and talk to him and see what I can do, but it doesn't look good. I said thanks.

 

We had another meeting after work that day, (a week long seminar actually) and so I went to the shop. And I needed to ask my direct boss (the good one) a question about another job, but he was on the phone, so I was waiting by his office door, when down the hall comes the big boss (the guy I had talked to the night before), and he said "so I hear you're leaving us." I said "well, I never said that but ok." To which he replied "well, let's go unload your van." So he walked with me to the shop and he personally counted my tools off of my company van to make sure I wasn't trying to steal anything I guess. This was a task that was always assigned to the shop techs, but for some reason he decided to do it personally for me. lol 

After that, one of the shop techs drove me home, and that was it.

I was still living with my parents at the time, but I had a car payment and a boat payment, and some credit cards, and insurance, and now I had no job to pay those bills. I had some vacation that was gonna be paid for, and one more paycheck, but that wouldn't last long.

 

There I was, unemployed after 6 years. I had not planned on leaving, so I had not been looking for a job. I had no idea what was available, or where I would even begin to look. But I had peace in spite of that.

My dad was like "you need to put your resume in with such and such employment agency, and etc. etc." But I was like "not yet. God brought me to this place, and I know He'll provide another job for me, and I don't think I have to stress out about finding a job myself." So I played golf that next day. And the day after that. And I just tried to relax, and let the shock of being unemployed settle a bit, and I prayed some more. I said "God, I know that even though it doesn't make sense to me, I know I am right where You want me to be right now, because I followed the road you guided me toward, and You know I need a job, so I'm asking You to provide one."

And after couple days of relaxing and not thinking much about work, I remembered a place I had worked with that contractor company. And I liked the place, and it was a way better job than what I had come from, and I thought if I were gonna ever work in any type of industrial plant, this would be the one I would want to work in. It's clean, minimal amount of dangerous chemicals. I could wear blue jeans and a tshirt to work, as opposed to the company issued overalls I was required to wear at my last job. The only thing my previous job would have over this one is the company car, but this job payed a lot more, so that was a non-issue. So just for the heck of it, I looked at their website, and they had a section for job openings. Now keep in mind this comany is nation-wide having facilities all over America, and about 10 in my local area. And the very first job on the list was the facility I wanted to work at and the job that I was qualified for. And it was available.

 

So I thought to myself, I still don't want to have much influence over this, because I want to know that God is doing this, not me. So instead of driving to the place, and personally applying for the job which I normally would do. I just applied online, and emailed my resume. I figured that is the least likely way to get noticed. But then about 3 days later, I get a phone call from my current boss (dangit, I just gave away the ending lol), and he wants to interview me. So I went in, and instead of trying to impress him, I just answered all of his questions honestly. I didn'b BS him at all. If I didn't know how to do something, I said I don't know how to do that. And there were quite a few tasks specific to this job that I'd never done before, and I told them that. I met the other manager, and their boss, and some of the guys I work with now, and he said he'd be giving me a call the next day. And he did, and now I have been at this job a little over 6 years, and it's great! I love this job. It pays more than my old job. The benefits are better. It's closer to my house. I like the people I'm working with better. I had even worried a little because I had just been at my old company long enough to start getting 3 weeks vacation instead of 2, and I figured I would be back to 2 at this company. But I found out this company starts out at 3 weeks vacation. And they even let you buy a week if you want, which I do. So really I get 4 weeks, and have since day 1. And in 4 more years, I'll get another week.

Oh, and as a side note, my old boss works for me now. Not literally, but I am one of his bigger customers. Really the whole company I used to work for all work for me now. When they come out here to do work, I am their primary contact. I am the one who decides how, where and when they do their work, etc. I even have the power to fire them, and pick another contractor to do the work if I want to. But two wrongs don't make a right, so I figured it would be better for my testimony to keep using them. Plus they do a good job.

 

That is the biggest and most recent example I have. But stuff like that happens to me on a smaller scale all the time.

 

Another one is how God told me I was about to marry the wrong woman. But I'll save that one unless you want to hear it too. It's not as long of a story.

I was unhappy with a job once, and I got another one without even trying, it is a great job and I am still here after 5 years!  I also got dumped once, and it turned out to be for the best!  Does that mean I'm a Christian??

 

There is so much wrong with taking stories like this as proof for deity.  Your story is literally: "Young professional is fired, gets better job."  WoooOOOooooOOOooo!

The entire story involves your direct action.  You looked for a new job in your own professional field, and yuor own actions and lack of flexibility got you fired from your old job.

 

Honestly, when you started the story I had hopes for something interesting...but this is not.  It doesn't even have a coincidence in it!  The entire story is a day in the life of middle America, as I said above, I have had experiences in my career that were almost identical.  I just don't get it, if everything you described is God working in your life, then God 'works' in the life of every non-poor middle class person in the world regardless of culture or belief.

 

I don't even know what to say.  

mellestad wrote:

I was unhappy with a job once, and I got another one without even trying, it is a great job and I am still here after 5 years!  I also got dumped once, and it turned out to be for the best!  Does that mean I'm a Christian??

 

There is so much wrong with taking stories like this as proof for deity.  Your story is literally: "Young professional is fired, gets better job."  WoooOOOooooOOOooo!

The entire story involves your direct action.  You looked for a new job in your own professional field, and yuor own actions and lack of flexibility got you fired from your old job.

 

Honestly, when you started the story I had hopes for something interesting...but this is not.  It doesn't even have a coincidence in it!  The entire story is a day in the life of middle America, as I said above, I have had experiences in my career that were almost identical.  I just don't get it, if everything you described is God working in your life, then God 'works' in the life of every non-poor middle class person in the world regardless of culture or belief.

 

I don't even know what to say.  

 

Well, then let me further explain some of the details you conveniently glossed over, and add a few more.

 

I am 31 and I've had exactly three jobs in my life. I worked at a grocery store my senior year in highschool and in college, for 3 years.

I worked for the contractor of the story for just short of 6 years.

And I've worked for my present employer for just over 6 years.

 

I am not the type of person to just up and quit a job without extremely good cause. In fact if it were just my personal decision, I would've stayed at the contractor company and just dealt with the travelling. Because my nature is that I prefer a job I am miserable at over changing jobs. I hate changing jobs, even if I'm going from a bad to a good job, I hate the transition. But I did it anyway, because I believe God wanted me to.

 

And lo and behold, He rewarded me for my faith. With a job that is not only better in every way, but requires absolutely no travel whatsoever.

And I did not look for this job. It fell in my lap.

 

With my education and experience I am qualified to be an industrial electrician with emphasis on high-voltage switchgear and systems. Do you know how many jobs fit that description within 40 miles of my house?

Probably over a thousand. Every refinery along the Houston ship channel has electricians, every petrochemical plant, every power generation plant, every bulk chemical storage facility. There are plenty of positions to be had at those facilities directly, or for the dozens of contract companies that do work for them. And in the 6 years I worked for that one contractor, I had been in well over 150 facilities in the area. I had seen them all, and known people who worked there, and worked there myself on a contract basis.

 

So when I say this place that simply popped into my head as the #1 place I would want to work, I am talking about #1 out of hundreds, all of which I had personally been to and seen for myself.

Is that not a coincidence in your opinion, that I got the one stinking job out of hundreds that I wanted more than any of the other ones?

 

How about this coincidence.

When I was looking online (the one and only company I looked into at all) to see what they had available. At the time this place was starting up facilities all over america and they had hundreds of job openings, and the list I looked at listed them all. The very top job on the list (probably because it was the newest opening) was the one I wanted, at the location I wanted.

Are you really gonna try and tell me that wasn't a coincidence?

 

And then I got the job. Which you could say I was just qualified, but honestly I wasn't. And I was very truthful about my shortcomings in the interview. But they hired me anyway.

That is not as big a coincidence as the others, but it is still unlikely. Unless they just really liked the fact that I was being honest about my abilities. But the place I work at has a total of 6 maintenance personnel. And they all knew each other prior to coming to work out here, and I knew none of them. I had worked out here for about 4 hours years ago, but my contact was the guy who had my job before me, and they had fired him about 5 months before I came knocking on their door. So the only person who could've vouched for me, was no longer there.

 

Why did I waste my time writing all of that if it's just going to be ignored?

The least you could do is say, wow, that is weird how all that worked together for you. I'm still not convinced that God did that, but it's a heck of a story.

Throw me a friggin bone here. But instead you tell me there's absolutely nothing abnormal about this at all.

I would like to have your life, if this kinda stuff happens to you on a daily basis. It sure doesn't happen to me very often.

 

 

NoDeity wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

Do hundreds of examples of me asking God to do the very improbable, and it happening every time qualify as supernatural?

How many times does it have to happen to prove that it's not coincidence?

Well, you'd need to document it thoroughly and you'd need to scrupulously include every single time that you ask God for something, including all instances in which you ask and it doesn't happen.  Your study protocol would certainly need to include some sort of mechanism that ensures that you are reporting the failures as well as the successes.  For one thing, it could not include silent prayers; audible prayers only and they would need to be recorded and stored.

I'm not sure how you'd make it double-blind.  For a start, perhaps a team of researchers would be tasked with determining whether or not certain events occurred, without their knowing that these were events for which someone had prayed.  As a sort of control, perhaps some equally improbable events for which you had not prayed should be included in the list of events for which they'd search.

Then, you'd need to find a way to eliminate some of the common "outs" that Christians use, such as "God is not a vending machine".  After all, if the God of the Bible was real, he might not be interested in jumping through a bunch of hoops just to prove himself to a bunch of people who have already decided that his gold standard, faith, isn't good enough.

So, it looks like you've got some work ahead of you.

 

Um, you didn't think we were just going to take you at your word, did you?

 

That may be what it would take for me to convince you. But I don't need all of that to be convinced myself. I was the one who experienced all of this, and I know it was real.

There were no failures. There were times when it seemed as though God weren't answering my prayers, but later I discovered that it worked out for the best. So even when He is silent, my best interest is still His priority.

The only times things got botched up in my life, is when I don't seek His counsel or His will, and go off on my own.

Poor baby - you came to this forum expecting us poor blind atheists (gnostic and agnostic) to roll over and start praying to Jesus because of the story you told?

jcgadfly wrote:

Poor baby - you came to this forum expecting us poor blind atheists (gnostic and agnostic) to roll over and start praying to Jesus because of the story you told?

 

No, I just expected you not to be a prick, but you're rapidly killing my expectations.