It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Offline Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:ProperGander,
You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.
What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?
What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?
Death is no invisible truck.
That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.
What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.
Ok, I see what you mean now.
Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody. Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.
I offer Christ as evidence. He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him. He is worthy of all our worship. His Words are True. He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die". The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him. I think Jesus is His own proof.
You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.
I can't prove that to you.
You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.
I've tried to encourage you to, though.
You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.
I've left that for you to decide.
I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)
No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it. I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible. You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger. It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.
You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.
"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah.
I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.
And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)
True. Faith is a confidence in things not seen.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.
Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.
If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.
I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ. I beleve Scripture - you don't. From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.
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Offline jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.
Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie.
I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.
But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.
If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.
The bible explains that to a thinking person.
jcgadfly wrote:
[quote
And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".
You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain. God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however. In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.
1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?
jcgadfly,
It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them. Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate. God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many.
In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse..."
God loves even His enemies. He is merciful therefore to be feared.
As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it. Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life. The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him. We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit.
The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand. Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory. The Glory is all God's however. It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.
jcgadfly wrote:
2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.
Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God. I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day. It's possible.
Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.
Many are invited to the Marriage Feast. Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.
1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.
2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.
3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.
4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?
I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join.
Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.
JCGadfly,
Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend? True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself. But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.
What are you talking about? All I said is that you felt positive peer pressure (peer pressure you liked) among your Christian friends so you joined them. The societies you say you didn't join you either knew no one there or you got negative peer pressure that made you feel uncomfortable. No faith needed - all human impulses.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.
What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.
You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect. You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him. You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.
I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)
"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah.
And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)
If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."
My point was that by 'guarding your heart', we're not going to be able to discuss anything honestly.
I can give you hundreds, nay thousands of anecdotal examples of your faith in action against humanity. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.
I can show you where scripture has internal contradictions. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.
I can explain the logical inconsistencies in your posts. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.
Do you see what I mean when I say I feel like we can't have an honest discussion?
I will continue, but I suffer no delusion that any of my posts will get past your 'guard'.
... which your god already knew would happen. Right?
A 'good' being created something 'bad'?
The problem is that the only 'good' men in scripture believed in that god. You have no examples of good people devoid of belief in that god in the scriptures. You have nothing to compare the relative terms of 'godly' and 'goodly'. To simply dismiss 'all of mankind' as a failure seems rather cursory don't you think?
Just as you have apparently not met a 'good' atheist, I've never met my 'ideal' christian.
... which in your next paragraph you state that he already knew this was going to happen before the decision to eat the proverbial apple occurred.
Allegedly, he knew that he was planned to suffer.
Allegedly, he knew that after suffering he gets to take the '#2 in the Universe' position.
The screenplay was written before the movie was made basically. Right?
As an atheist, I see myself as an uncooperative actor in this miserable story of lies and half-truths where the 'hero' dies in the first five minutes and it doesn't mean anything to the rest of the movie.
Since you get to use 'god' as your metaphor, I'd like to use firefighters in simile.
This idea of god coming to the rescue after creating the problem is like a firefighter being first on the scene to his/her own arson.
Follow me here. He wrote the book where a man eats from a forbidden tree and he sacrifices his son to himself. He made the tree. He made the man. He knew the man would eat from the tree prompting him to sacrifice his son for the man because he ate from the tree he made.
That is not only irrational, but unethical.
It would be the equivalent of planning to put a loaded Glock between two young kids watching Reservoir Dogs and then when they kill someone, you crucify your son to make up for putting the gun there.
Why not? I quit smoking pcp-laced joints a long time ago. I quit drinking a long time ago. All on my own.
Obviously you didn't want to stop the bad behavior, you wanted to replace it.
Is it that you couldn't tell yourself, "No!" but if you had something else commanding it then you could do it?
You know what they say about things that are too good to be true don't you?
If it sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't true.
However, if I lay out poison for the deer or bird to eat... I can't crucify a squirrel to make it better.
It is my contention that YOU are working for you. If you are being 'good' then you are affixing the qualities of what 'good' is.
I know you have pride, but why not self-esteem?
Saying 'it works for me' carries the connotation that it doesn't work for everyone. Yet here I am. It doesn't work for me and I don't want it.
So do I. However, I'm not going to tell them hell awaits if they don't see the same 'good' as I do.
Soooo, it ONLY works for you might be a better statement?
I'm more concerned with the 'likely' places that this is supposed to be 'working' for people.
It seems convenient to have something allegedly so good fail for some of the people who espouse it.
Likewise, as I mentioned earlier, some people are so much better off without it.
I'm saying it's the ultimate red herring.
By diverting your attention with promises of joy and treasures while allegedly causing harm to others or showing indifference to some, your 'He' doesn't seem too interested in telling you the truth about the world.
That's my point. You're living with the fear of hell and promise of heaven while I am merely living.
For me, it's a great deal either way.
I'll explain that feeling after this next set of quotes.
Here's the problem. If I'm altering my behavior when alive in order to get the 'good' side after death then my actions are clearly self-motivated. In other words, choosing to live in a 'christ-like' way isn't because it is good, rather it is gambling on being right and not going to hell.
What if allah is god and mohammed is his prophet? You would be wrong. Meanwhile, I have merely chosen NOT to choose. I remained skeptical.
Allah slaps you for being an infidel and pities me for being ignorant, but still being good. Meanwhile, your only reason to be good was to avoid punishment.
I'm cool with this. At almalhamah, I am 'walked past' instead of 'walked upon'.
The converse to either situation is oblivion. I live my life, I die, and am no more.
Given that there are many gods claiming to be the one true god, you have less than a 1% chance of being right, while I have chosen NOT to be wrong.
Pascal's wager benefits the uncommitted atheist.
There's that 'faith' word again. Earlier, we discussed honesty.
Yet 'faith' requires someone to be dishonest with themselves by not allowing contingencies contradictory to that faith. You have said so right here. If jesus says it - it is true. Faith means you cannot allow for it to be false.
In every other aspect of our lives, we face the cold hard truth of reality that things are not bound by what we believe them to be.
Doesn't 'He' already know that you're going to pray and what you're going to pray for?
Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?
Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?
Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?
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So... you're a hedonist? Isn't it esentially the same thing as hedonism? You do it because you like it - whether it is true, beneficial, etc.
My "gospel" (good news) is this: We don't know why or how, but we exist. and that's really cool! Woohooo!
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
So, your contention is that the scriptures are true because you agree with its philosophical statements? I even agree with the three verses that you presented, but it doesn't verify the validity of the Bible.
How do you know?
I've seen this metaphor before.
So, Christianity fills this emptiness. It felt like you were missing something. When you devoted yourself to Christ, it felt like you found what you needed. Thus, this helps convince you of the validity of Christianity. Correct?
Of course, they're your personal experiences. Unless I could read your mind, I can never know the road you've traveled to become a Christian.
Do you have any objective evidence?
I like the direction my life is going too, but this has no bearing on the truth of my worldview.
Sigh...I suppose I should have asked a different question. But, thanks for the response.
Which is why, in order to adequately discuss opposing views, we have to present verifiable evidence instead of just playing with our opinions.
How? What is it like when you "see" Him?
I've read these kinds of assertions a million times. Although I've been kind of rude in some of my earlier responses, I really want to have a productive discussion now, and this isn't going anywhere.
Definitely.
There's no way to know for sure. Some of my favorite channels are "potholer54," "aronra," and "donexodus2."
Again, I cannot accept your personal experiences as evidence.
Oh, I really want to go sky-diving.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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This thread seemed to veer slightly off the "kill em with kindness" tenets in several parts. It has therefore been moved to A vs T.
I am aware that our warning bar for the Kill Em With Kindness area isn't working, so from now on mods will make an attempt to add "Kill EM With Kindness" to the title of any thread posted in that area. Please make sure you are aware of the Kill Em With Kindness rules before posting.
1. No ad hominem attacks. (subset: no insults- this includes calling people irrational :shock
unless Ricky devises a good "calling a spade a spade rule."
2. No profanity
3. No preaching (you can use the bible to prove a biblical point, but you can't use the bible as evidence for God. Adam will revise/expand later, this was actually his rule)
4. Make every effort to be civil, polite, understanding, and caring for your fellow human.
Another use for this forum (as well as any other forum, you just have to ask) is to conduct one one debates
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
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Yaeray
It sounds like you have looked into this and made your decision. So have I. Know however that the picture you present is misguided. Ghandi couldn't love Christ if he didn't love those Christ died for. No man has been more a friend to the world or more hated than Christ.
As far as "tricking", the apostles set the example of presenting the Gospel straight-forward. There's no slight of hand in it. Most of them died for it.
I totally believe the Scripture that says the writers didn't write from their own impulse but as moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1.20-21). I understand you have a different view.
No - just die. (Nobody died and made me Elvis)
I knew "Christ exists" long before I experienced those routine examples of how Scripture proves itself in daily life. The faith that Christ exists was a small and vulnerable thing - like a white oak my daughter brought home from school 26 years ago - about the size of a pencil. I didn't think it would make it. But 23 years later it produced acorns and recently survived an ice storm that hurt 1/4 of the trees in the city.
I see the survival of my faith as a miracle supervised by God.
JCGadfly,
Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend? True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself. But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.