jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 

Or Paul managed to contradict himself from Romans 4 to Romans 6.

Why worry about sinnning if there's no penalty for the believer in Christ?

There's that "real freedom" thing sgsin - id it only if we're in lockstep with you or can we stick to the lesser tools of the Bible and Christ?

I apologize for the sarcasm but you seem to be playing this "you can only be a Christian if you do it my way" game.

 

 

JC,

There is a penalty for sinning - it hurts our relationship with Christ.  The church is the bride of Christ and the relationship is extreemly close.  The reasons for not sinning are powerful - we have been bought and paid for with the blood of our LORD.  We have died and been born anew.  Why would we want to go around with a dead body around our neck.  We are dead to sin. 

It's obvious you don't have to worry about being in lockstep with me.  Jesus is the One to draw near to - John used Him for a pillow - Jesus loved John.  Jesus doesn't surround Himself with staff - He deals personally. 

As to freedom in Christ - don't knock it.  If you experience it you'll love it.  Jesus said the truth can make you free.  One thing involved in that is freedom from the false impressions of Jesus and  the false definitions of freedom in Him.  And you will hate sin.  Your appetite will have changed.  You will be feeding the spirit rather than the flesh - you will let the flesh die.  It's a slow daily death.  It's a battle, it's a race.  You need to join and start - then run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC,

I understand you and I are on opposite sides of faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures. 

I admit I can't do anything about it. 

I don't think I have credibility with you and the converse is also true. 

You seem happy with your god, and I am happy and fulfilled in every way with the God of all the earth Who I believe as all inspired history reports lived in human flesh on this earth and made atonement on the cross and now walks among the candlesticks.  Because of His grace I know Him and worship Him and rejoice in Him.  I have tried to share the good news of this with you - but it begins with the fear of the Lord.  Thus this discussion with you has never really begun.  I share the sorrow of Christ over that.

Whether we are fools or not to believe thus in God and Christ the world will know one day. 

 

"The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."

 

 

 

JC,

 

I was just reading this proverb:  "The sluggard says, 'There is a lion outside!  I shall be slain in the streets!'"

 

There could be such a thing as spiritual laziness - not only that, but trying to put the best face on it:  fear of the king of beasts.  The lazy guy  isn't lazy with his tongue though - he talks about repentance but doesn't do it.  A lot is talked about but nothing is done.  He will invent doubts and dilemmas and disputes.  But the only reason is this:  he don't want to give up his sins and give up his self righteousness and be washed in the Blood of the Lamb and give all the glory to God and the Redeemer.  He will lose heaven rather than face the lion of his own fear.

We are little men today.  The martyrs faced lions and sang in the fire for our LORD.  He led the way through the fire Himself - heated 7 times hotter. 

 

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get any joy out of thinking of the destruction of anybody. 

You say you have no fear of the appeal of God to repent and accept His grace - and I believe you are being honest.  Do you see yourself in this scripture:   "Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, wheras angels, though greater in might and power do not pronounce a reviling judgment on them before the LORD.  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,  born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, suffering wrong for their wrongdoing."   I am bringing the warning before the trumpet blast.  Judge for yourself whether I am your friend or a feindish enemy delighting in your doom. 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get any joy out of thinking of the destruction of anybody. 

You say you have no fear of the appeal of God to repent and accept His grace - and I believe you are being honest.  Do you see yourself in this scripture:   "Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, wheras angels, though greater in might and power do not pronounce a reviling judgment on them before the LORD.  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,  born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, suffering wrong for their wrongdoing."   I am bringing the warning before the trumpet blast.  Judge for yourself whether I am your friend or a feindish enemy delighting in your doom. 

 

 

 

 

If you're not going to be bothered with reading and discussing what I wrote, then you are simply preaching (this could get you banned - be careful).

You offered me the fear of death as a reason to return to God. I responded by telling you to find another method because death is not something that I fear.

Now you claim that I fear a question. Get off the appeals to fear and find something useful.

I believe you when you say you don't get joy out of anyone's destruction - this is a refreshing change from other Christians I know. I hope you are being truthful in that.

As for your scripture, please don't mistake my not acknowledging your god's authority for hatred of it. I just need more of a reason than fear to follow it. Fear doesn't work as a basis of love between humans - why should it be an essential for love between humans and your god?

Anonymouse wrote:

Oh sorry, I totally forgot about all this...

 

Anonymouse wrote:

If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.

I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.

The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.

If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

 

Your answer :

 

Fonzie wrote:

Neither a "verbal command" nor "kill the innocent" would be consistent with Christ's Life or Message (same thing).  And in these "last days" God has spoken to us through His Son.  "It is finished" - the Way of salvation for man is completely developed, no need for further development or verbal messages.

I see. So god changed his mind about the whole child killing thing, through the medium of his son, as you say.

Beg pardon, but what's to stop god from changing his mind yet again ? If I understand the relationship between god and you correctly, then it's him who's in charge, not you. That means that any interpretation you have of his word, is subject to his approval. In other words, nothing can stop him from changing his mind, least of all you.

So my question still stands. Unanswered.

Btw, if it helps, when you finally answer my question, I have no intention of going "gotcha !", or "hahaha ! I'm better than you ! Tee hee !". I'm merely curious to see if you understand the implications of unquestioning loyalty.

I think you do.

Fonzie wrote:

The young sapling early church had the supporting stake of special gifts of the Spirit - the Spirit spoke to them verbally, they could speak to foreigners in their language without spending time studying the language, heal lepers, etc, but the church doesn't have that scaffold now because we don't need it.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but since I'm doing my very best to understand you,  it would really help if you stopped talking like a world of warcraft junkie.

 

Anonymouse,

I think I understand what you're asking.  You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.  

 

The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man. 

 

This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Fonzie,

Fonzie wrote:

I think I understand what you're asking.

You understood the question just fine the first time it was asked. You just haven't answered it yet.

Fonzie wrote:

You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.

I'm not talking about political correctness. Didn't even mention it. I'm just asking you if you would kill a child if god asked you too. So far your only attempt at an answer was to claim that god would never ask that anymore, which doesn't work, since god can do whatever he likes, and you are only too happy to obey.

So I'm asking you again : Would you do it, yes or no ?

Fonzie wrote:

The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man.

This answers the question : What was god's plan ? I'm pretty sure I didn't ask you that.

Look, what exactly is the problem here ? It's not my fault that the question I asked only has two possible answers. It's your unquestioning loyalty to a supernatural being that makes these kinds of questions relevant in the first place.

And I've already told you, if you don't want to answer the question, if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that situation, just say so and I'll stop asking it.

Fonzie wrote:

This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

It really doesn't matter which aspect of your god you choose to obey. By your own definition, god is omnipotent, and on top of that, he moves in mysterious ways you can't begin to comprehend. You don't get to make the rules, he does. That's what this question is all about.

So what if one of those mysterious ways was blocked by an innocent child, and you were asked to clear the way by killing it ? Yes or no ?