In Defense of a Kind God
Offline I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God. They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.
I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions. Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God. God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.
Here are a few in no particular order:
1. Gift of Sleep - Sleep is a wonderful invention. Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies, sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world. No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality.
2. Laughter - God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy. Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act. There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well.
3. Taste buds - we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes. God certainly didn't have to do this. Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body. Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system. But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.
4. Sex - I don't think anyone will argue with this one. Sex is an amazing creation. Our society is obsessed with it. On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure. It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way. However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences. Spread of STDS, for example.
Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence. I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day. Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is. We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy. Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds.
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Offline look your arguments present NOTHING to validate your claims.. your being a troll i think when people pretty much prove your wrong you still do the theist psycobabble. i agree an honest debate is good but you kep regurgetating the same crap over and over. satan brainwashing us? are you kidding me? this stuff was written by people who probably threw stones at their own shadows and died a rip old age of 30. you cant prove ANYTHING
Chris
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Offline Beyond Saving wrote:Well you do completely ignore the large number of people who have problems in both areas. You focus on the positive while ignoring the negative. Not that it matters, because even if sleep and sex were always perfect it does not support the conclusion that they were created by a super being anyway.
As I stated previously, I was away on vacation and did not have the time to respond to the barrage of posts. Not that I expect atheists to treat Christians fairly. That'll never happen.
Beyond Saving wrote:
I can't speak for others but I have been extremely sick in my life. I had an antibiotic resistant pneumonia so severe that it led to me being hospitalized for two weeks and left permanent scarring on my lungs. Sleep didn't cure it, nor did prayer. It was cured by a team of medical doctors and scientists who created what was at that time an experimental cocktail of drugs. I still deal with the scarring on my lungs and I'm not praying for my lungs to magically regenerate either, I am putting my hopes that those brilliant scientific minds will figure out more effective methods to transplant lungs before I need them. (Current lung transplant patients only have a life expectancy of 3-5 years I plan on living longer than that) Since I have roughly 30 years before I can anticipate it becoming a serious issue I think my odds are pretty good as pulmonary medicine has been advancing significantly the last few decades. I know there are several other people on this site who have dealt with/are currently dealing with severe medical issues. They aren't trying to cure them by sleeping either.
Medical professionals often fail patients, and many patients like myself walk away frustrated without a real diagnosis. Doctors understand little about pain, and the treatments are pathetic for sufferers of chronic pain. Doctors certainly couldn't cure my intense back pain that I endured for almost a year. But after a Christian brother prayed for me, God's healing power came over me, and I was pain free. This brother also saw his thyroid cancer disappear completely overnight years ago. Another miracle.
Beyond Saving wrote:When sex is performed in ways the scripture forbids it has numerous physical and mental benefits.
You mean like having sex with animals or multiple partners? Yeah, that's real healthy. Please show me a good reference proofing that sex with multiple partners is not risky behavior. At the best, you have to wear a condom which diminishes the experience, and condoms can easily break or come off. Do you play russian roulette as a party game too?
Man, you are becoming as bad as Jean Chauvin, although you do have better grammar and eloquence.
I'm not even gonna touch that story, because, as a rule of the internet, 'pics or it didn't happen'. Some evidence please? Also, cancer can, and will, sometimes go into remission seemingly at random. This man had died of cancer instead, it would be God's fault right, by your logic? Because he could of saved him so easily.
As far as the sex thing goes, WTF? Did he say sex with animals? You sick bastard.
The condom thing, you think condoms are unsafe, and prefer not to use them? Who is engaging in risky behavior now?
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
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Offline I'd also like the note that the Theistard TWD39 has not deigned my posts worthy of proper reply, just like most everyone else's.
Edit: @TWD39 Picking chunks out of people's posts and trying to attack ONLY that part while ignoring everything else they said is clearly trolling, therefore you fail completely at this debate.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
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Offline TWD39 wrote:Beyond Saving wrote:Well you do completely ignore the large number of people who have problems in both areas. You focus on the positive while ignoring the negative. Not that it matters, because even if sleep and sex were always perfect it does not support the conclusion that they were created by a super being anyway.
As I stated previously, I was away on vacation and did not have the time to respond to the barrage of posts. Not that I expect atheists to treat Christians fairly. That'll never happen.
Beyond Saving wrote:
I can't speak for others but I have been extremely sick in my life. I had an antibiotic resistant pneumonia so severe that it led to me being hospitalized for two weeks and left permanent scarring on my lungs. Sleep didn't cure it, nor did prayer. It was cured by a team of medical doctors and scientists who created what was at that time an experimental cocktail of drugs. I still deal with the scarring on my lungs and I'm not praying for my lungs to magically regenerate either, I am putting my hopes that those brilliant scientific minds will figure out more effective methods to transplant lungs before I need them. (Current lung transplant patients only have a life expectancy of 3-5 years I plan on living longer than that) Since I have roughly 30 years before I can anticipate it becoming a serious issue I think my odds are pretty good as pulmonary medicine has been advancing significantly the last few decades. I know there are several other people on this site who have dealt with/are currently dealing with severe medical issues. They aren't trying to cure them by sleeping either.
Medical professionals often fail patients, and many patients like myself walk away frustrated without a real diagnosis. Doctors understand little about pain, and the treatments are pathetic for sufferers of chronic pain. Doctors certainly couldn't cure my intense back pain that I endured for almost a year. But after a Christian brother prayed for me, God's healing power came over me, and I was pain free. This brother also saw his thyroid cancer disappear completely overnight years ago. Another miracle.
Beyond Saving wrote:When sex is performed in ways the scripture forbids it has numerous physical and mental benefits.
You mean like having sex with animals or multiple partners? Yeah, that's real healthy. Please show me a good reference proofing that sex with multiple partners is not risky behavior. At the best, you have to wear a condom which diminishes the experience, and condoms can easily break or come off. Do you play russian roulette as a party game too?
Man, you are becoming as bad as Jean Chauvin, although you do have better grammar and eloquence.
I'm not even gonna touch that story, because, as a rule of the internet, 'pics or it didn't happen'. Some evidence please? Also, cancer can, and will, sometimes go into remission seemingly at random. This man had died of cancer instead, it would be God's fault right, by your logic? Because he could of saved him so easily.
As far as the sex thing goes, WTF? Did he say sex with animals? You sick bastard.
The condom thing, you think condoms are unsafe, and prefer not to use them? Who is engaging in risky behavior now?
I've never heard of a cancer patient who DID NOT receive chemo or treatment suddenly seeing their tumors disappear completely. Provide proof or it doesn't happen.
He stated that sexual activity opposite of the Bible's teaching is wonderful and good. This includes bestiality and incest as well. Atheists just can't admit that the Bible has good life teachings.
As for condoms, if you are in a commited relationship with just one partner, condoms aren't needed.
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Offline As I stated previously, I was away on vacation and did not have the time to respond to the barrage of posts. Not that I expect atheists to treat Christians fairly. That'll never happen.
Yet you are back now. I am still waiting in breathless anticipation for your stunningly brilliant evidence and compelling arguments against all of my points (or even one of them, I'm not greedy)
Medical professionals often fail patients, and many patients like myself walk away frustrated without a real diagnosis. Doctors understand little about pain, and the treatments are pathetic for sufferers of chronic pain. Doctors certainly couldn't cure my intense back pain that I endured for almost a year. But after a Christian brother prayed for me, God's healing power came over me, and I was pain free. This brother also saw his thyroid cancer disappear completely overnight years ago. Another miracle.
Oh? You are one of the wackos way off the deep end then. Well, I support your decision not to go to the doctor. When you have a heart attack, take a nap and offer a prayer I'm sure everything will work out swell. Being the superstitious neanderthal I am I will give my money to those idiot doctors. Do you care to have a last longer bet? I will take out a life insurance policy on you and you take one out on me, I will go to doctors and you promise to never see a doctor again and go to church instead. I like my odds.
You mean like having sex with animals or multiple partners? Yeah, that's real healthy. Please show me a good reference proofing that sex with multiple partners is not risky behavior. At the best, you have to wear a condom which diminishes the experience, and condoms can easily break or come off. Do you play russian roulette as a party game too?
Animals? Hey man, whatever floats your boat.
Risky? Sure. Deadly? No. If you are living your life trying to minimize all risk to your life you are missing out on a lot. I'm not particularly afraid of death and having sex with multiple people is far from the most dangerous activity I choose to participate in. The most statistically dangerous activity I participate in is driving. I also skydive, canoe rapids, hunt, walk through areas with relatively high snake populations, in a couple months I will be hunting in an area with a high grizzly bear population, I visit my brother who lives in the dangerous part of Mexico on a yearly basis, I ride in small planes, I eat my burgers medium rare and my steak rare, I even eat my pork on the slightly undercooked side, I eat spinach (although I admit it would really suck to die from eating spinach but people have) I enjoy traveling to remote areas and have been in remote locations during dangerous weather, I play poker in private clubs, I own a dog, my house has two floors (stairs + dog = dangerous), I enjoy rock climbing on occasion, I still smoke cigars and my doc says I drink too much etc.
There are far more things I want to do and haven't had the time/means yet. I want to learn to scuba dive, I want to go in a shark cage during and see a feeding frenzy, I would love to try some serious mountaineering, I want hunt cape buffalo, lion, and leopard in Africa, I want to stalk and take a grizzly with a bow, I want to try hang gliding, if I had enough money I would be on one of those virgin galactic flights, I have seen most of North America, I would like to explore other continents more thoroughly, I want to try bungee jumping, base jumping, I could go on. My to do list is quite long, I don't have the time to do it all.
I could go on indefinitely the number of little things I do/want to do that slightly increase the odds of me dying or sustaining serious injury. Should I cease all my dangerous behavior and sit at home with the doors locked and the windows boarded?
Maybe you are content to live a boring life just for a little bit of safety. Personally, I want to enjoy the bounties of this world while I am here. I take sensible precautions but I am not going to pass up on pleasure simply out of fear that I might get hurt. If I die doing something I love I will die happy and I would rather take that risk than live life without it. Sounds like you need to stop worrying and appreciate the joys this life can bring because no matter how few risks you take, you will die at the end. I would rather die today than live to be 100 having done nothing with my life.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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Offline The bible is replete with stories of incest and bestiality.
Atheists can't admit that the Bible has good life teachings ? Is that what you just said ?
Hmm, Noah's Ark ( god drowned the whole world) Abraham and Issac ( god TESTS Abraham to see if he would kill his son for him or not, then backs off and says " Just kidding, go murder that lamb instead." Jacob and Esau ( it's ok to cheat and lie to get a brithright). Slaughtering all Egyptian firstborn, that was a real nice bedtime story for children. So much better than the 3 little bears.
Moses committing mass murder, and okaying rape and pillaging throughout Deuteronomy. Setting about all sorts of inhumane laws in Leviticus.
Need I go on ?
Would you like for me to touch upon the New Testament as well ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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Offline Jabberwocky wrote:TWD39 wrote:Vastet wrote:With every victory, I become less surprised at the inability and/or unwillingness of theists to continue the debate.
With every victory, I become less surprised at the stubborn refusal of atheists to accept reality. In their deluded mind, they have all the answers to every mystery in life and they are the only intelligent human beings.
Wrong. We are the group who don't claim to have all the answers. However, when we know you're wrong, we will tell you. What reality is it that we refuse to accept, and what evidence do you have to back up this supposed reality?
Why do so many religious people attack atheist's with a ignorant caricature, and complain furiously when some do the same to them? Labels mean almost nothing.
TWD39 .. Just keep digging a hole for yourself. If you want to persist, go ahead. And if you're shovel breaks; I'll be happy to hand you a new one. Every little false characterization, quib, and snide remark is giving an impression you aren't even trying at this point,. Would you like it if people were to suggest a topic ?
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Offline I've never heard of a cancer patient who DID NOT receive chemo or treatment suddenly seeing their tumors disappear completely. Provide proof or it doesn't happen.
Perhaps you should read some medical journals (or do a google search) spontaneous regression is rare, but not unheard of. Doctors estimate the odds are in the range of 1 in 100,000 but it is difficult to determine since most forms of cancer are quickly treated and there is always the reality that some cancer is never detected and perhaps disappears. I have read that some doctors believe that over 20% of malignant breast tumors will disappear on their own but with improved screening small tumors are treated quickly.
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/fulltext/2007/02000/spontaneous_regression_of_hepatocellular.31.aspx
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/sep/the-body-can-stave-off-terminal-cancer-sometimes/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C=
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/114/3/638.full
As for condoms, if you are in a commited relationship with just one partner, condoms aren't needed.
And if you are in a committed relationship with someone who has an STD? Or should people with permanent STD's simply be expected to live their lives without a physical relationship? Believe it or not, there are people who knowingly enter relationships where one person has an STD and the other does not. Your ignorance and close mindedness is astonishing.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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That's a very astute observation. Good point.
It's not that we're generally 'glass half empty' type folks. It's actually the theists who keep telling us that their god is omnibinevolent. Emphasis on OMNI. ANY amount of 'empty' is enough to rebuke that claim.
If you want to tell me that your god is about half full when it comes to morality, then I won't present you with the problem of evil. You'll get a lot of flack from other thiests though...
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
No evidence? Have you personally debunked every single story of a supernatural encounter? Hundreds of people have had experiences with supernatural entities such as ghosts which suggests that there is more than this physical realm. OTOH, you have ZERO evidence that there is no afterlife.
If God looked into the future and changed the future events then you would have a paradox. For example, lets say you can see in the future, and you discover that you will die mountain climbing. Therefore, you live out your life avoiding mountains and die a different way. Then the future you saw was not a true future. It was a lie. Course, if God applied your standard of moral actions then you would not be alive either since man has done evil as well. It sounds like the only way you would establish a moral God would be for God to never create anything.
God didn't create Satan. Satan created Satan. Furthermore, God exists outside of time. He is the beginning and the ending. Our brains can only comprehend time moving forward in a linear fashion.
If you actually looked into the future and then circumstances didn't match up then you never saw into the future to begin with.
God has the advantage of foresight. No one forces him to act.
You mean like Adam created Adam or Eve created Eve ? Your desperation is showing.
Who told you that, God ?
God apparently is the only one exempt from having to be created isn't he? According to your book, he created the heaven and the Earth, and everything in it. He created the Garden of Eden and everything there. Including that talking snake, did he not? Or did the snake (Satan) create itself? So now God isn't the only being able to conjure up stuff out of nothing? You've back-pedalled into a hole here.
Now as far as disproving everybody who has experienced the supernatural to the best of their recollection, out of every single one of those situations that have been properly examined, 100% of them have resulted in a verdict that the people were under a misconception, whether they were fooled by a trickster, or actually having a brain episode.
As far as the others, there is a big problem. People of ALL faiths report such miracles, and they pretty well ALWAYS coincide with the faith of the person reporting it.
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
With every victory, I become less surprised at the inability and/or unwillingness of theists to continue the debate.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
With every victory, I become less surprised at the stubborn refusal of atheists to accept reality. In their deluded mind, they have all the answers to every mystery in life and they are the only intelligent human beings.
The problem is that you have failed to argue properly or convincingly, not that atheists are stubborn and deluded as you so politely put.
By 'failed to argue proper or convincingly' I mean:
-Relying on claims that have no external substantiation (i.e. god exists out of time) This is true why? You know this how? NOT The Bible, because that is not external substantiation, that is "The Bible is true because The Bible"
-Ignoring the counter-arguments and arguments against your points, despite the fact that they clearly and effectively dispute YOUR arguments and counter-arguments.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
*Yawn*
Still can't come up with a response eh?
I'm still not surprised.
And I'm still victorious.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Wrong. We are the group who don't claim to have all the answers. However, when we know you're wrong, we will tell you. What reality is it that we refuse to accept, and what evidence do you have to back up this supposed reality?
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
Why do so many religious people attack atheist's with a ignorant caricature, and complain furiously when some do the same to them? Labels mean almost nothing.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Oh, I love when daytime tv sci-fi drama reaches theist levels. Time travel paradox meets bible thumping. Let's see what gem this match made in heaven, has come up with.
You have the ability to see the future. You see that GOD'S plan for your future seeing ass, is to die mountain climbing. You move to the Canadian prairies, and die of old age... TAM TAM DAMMMMMMMM! You have just fucked god's plan, so your ass is going to hell. Simultaneously, you are the proud pet owner of one live Schrodinger's cat, the dead one rotting away in the universe where your ass falls off a mountain. But... here's the plot twister... in the universe where you fall off the mountain, your ass goes to heaven. TAM TAM TAMMMMMMMM!!!!. And a second plot twister... the soul is one, so now you have a soul in hell, and one in heaven... and that just created a pseudo scientific, all religious paradox.... And that just ruins god's morning, I mean wtf? he was just about to reach for the cream cheese to get on his toast... and there you go fucking up god's breakfast.... that's just fucking rude.... End Credits...!!!
I think you should stick to bible quotes. How was your vacation? Did you have fun praying and going to church and stuff?
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Have I missed you.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I have missed you also, how is school and you new job (not so new now I guess)?
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Star Trek II - The Death scene
Kobayashi Maru -- In the 'Kobayashi Maru scenario' is a test in the fictional Star Trek universe might remember (if not the name) ..
> Make sure to find your way around the ad 15 seconds into the video . . Close off in the lower right hand corner
Made straight A's winter and spring terms. And the contract job was over June 28th. Looking for work again -
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Ah, one of my favorite movies. Did you know Shatner played the possum in Over the Hedge?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGLoMdb0q-o
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
LOL Typical atheist zombie response. I know I'm making solid arguments when the only thing atheists can bring to the table is mockery. It's a fail tactic to appear superior by getting the last word in.
I have never once seen an atheist admit to being wrong, or be truthful in their request for evidence. You don't want evidence. You want me to present something that you can tear apart immediately without an ounce of consideration.
Actually, you rely on arguments that God is illogical or unfair which does nothing to disprove that God exists.
Oh, look, someone who doesn't understand the average atheist's position.
Actually, atheists use arguments that there is no reason for them, or as some often do, that there is no reason for anyone to believe in God considering that, given all the current evidence, there appears to be no rational or logical argument for believing in God.
The argument that God DOES NOT exists can not be definitively proven at this time, however the reason atheist's refuse to believe in it is that there is no reason to do so, and is, in fact, much evidence that the majority of religions are highly misinformed about how the universe works, and that biblical assertions about the nature of creation and the universe have been disproved.
As for God being unfair, well, that is a philosophical argument for the inconsistency of several major religions (God is loving, but btw you will burn in hell for not believing. Worship or Suffer). This adds to the strength of the no belief argument.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Actually, I think this is mostly true. The difference between you and me, kid, is that if I ever found replicatable, verifiable evidence that the SOB existed, I still wouldn't worship it. Get me started on why I feel this way at your own risk.
Atheists are asking for the same evidence as is required for any scientific study. Replicatable - anyone can carefully perform the experiment and get the expected results. Verifiable - anyone can examine the methods used to gather the data and see that the data measures what the experimenter claims it measures. The problem with god/s/dess is that there is no replicatable data, and few verifiable studies. Most people who claim there is evidence say something inane - "Look at that sunset! God made it just for us to admire!" There is no evidence in this claim. The combination of atmospheric conditions that produced that sunset can be (and are) generated randomly. Magical invisible friends are not required for the production of lovely sunsets. And as near as anyone has been able to discover, invisible friends are not required for anything else.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Au contraire.
Read your science books and see how theories are constantly redefined with each new finding or evidence. Unlike religion, which stubbornly persists in illogical claims, even when proven otherwise.
Just look at all the lengths they went through to silence Galileo or the people that speculated the world was round.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
You have yet to respond to a single counter-argument.
When all else fails, you just fall back on "typical Atheist mockery" argument.
Which is a typical Christian tactic. Evade the question and fall back on nonsense rather than defend your claim.
Your OP was, "In defense of a loving god".
You have yet to make a solid case for even that one, let alone all of the other assertions that you keep tossing out here ( i.e. people being raised from the dead, Satan creating Satan, god making people perfect, etc.)
When a counter to your assertion is presented, you play victim and start whining about "Atheists are just stubborn and want to tear up my claims".
Well, if you don;t like that, PROVE me wrong. Present me with a claim that defies all rational explanation and has yet to be solved. BUT, present the same said claim that this phenomena PROVES the existence of the biblical god and not something else.
That should be a very easy task for you, since you claim to have all this evidence.
Now, I am willing to bet money, that you are going to do one of three things. Ignore this post. Answer the post with some assertion and then say that Atheists are too close-minded minded to accept it, or go on blathering about Atheist mockery.
Now prove otherwise.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Well it would be nice if you presented something. No doubt it would be torn apart immediately because whatever you presented would be weaker than O'Douls. If you have anything to offer that is worth considering, offer it. So far you have talked big but nothing of any detail to offer, which is a telltale sign of someone who knows their argument is weak.
Even if you assume that we won't take it seriously, there are a lot of lurkers that you could inform. My guess is you have nothing to offer but vague bullshit.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Cupcake, you wouldn't know a solid argument if it came all over your face. If you want to debate within the same epistemic paradigm you have to recognize the difference between an ontological and semantic claim. Also some basic logic about the burden of proof and the irrationality of presenting a concept without defining it, wouldn't hurt. Levity is the only way I can interact with what you are logically proposing. You're like the kid that says the car goes "vrummm" when discussing green fuel performance over traditional gasoline.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
The problem is that atheists will smugly shift the rules whenever you try to nail them to the wall with evidence. It's against the rules to present personal stories. It's against the rules to present any case of miracle healing unless it is documented and stamp approved by a liberal atheistic medical journal. Oh, you can't present a NDE case because some obscure study ruled it as loss of brain function so that automatically applies to ALL cases. Talk about broad paint strokes.
Heckfire, atheists won't even define exactly what quantifies as evidence because they need wiggle room.
So you answered with one of the 3 options that I said that you would answer with. You chose option number 2. You did not present a case or a claim and dodged the question. Which is one of the options that I said that you would do.
I thought you were going to give me something original to work with or some sort of claim that was going to at least leave me wondering.
You had the opportunity to do so and did not.
I would actually LOVE to believe that the supernatural and an afterlife might exist of some sort. But there is ZERO evidence for it.
So, you can't accuse me of being close minded when I will say that if the existence of ghosts, spirits or whatever could be proven, I would want to KNOW.
I wasted a great deal of my life being religious. I wasted a great deal of my childhood passionately praying and attending church. It was all to NO avail.
Now if you can prove me wrong, I'll admit I am wrong. But, if I can offer claims that says YOUR wrong, will you do the same ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Watch out Ktulu, you are engaging in typical Atheist mockery in an attempt to get out of the debate and making us all look close minded
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I can't help but fall on my "atheist zombie" mode when faced with such monolithic logic. The epic argument against me simply overwhelms the sense. I'm actually crying inside from such awesomeness. I can only take in 2-3 words at the time, after which I need to advert the eyes, lest I break down and cry. I'm actually about half way through the second line in his argument. I have been reading since yesterday
.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
See : Image
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What rules?
Not against the rules, we present personal stories all the time. However, I'm sure you can understand that personal stories are extremely weak as evidence because personal stories can easily be, and often are completely made up. It is wise to take all personal stories with a grain of salt because even if they are not blatant falsehood, at the very least they are told from a biased perspective. You are welcome to share all the personal stories you want, but don't expect us to accept every word as true.
No rule there either. However, without some sort of verification from some kind of third party you have nothing other than a personal story. A medical journal would be the best third party as it is peer reviewed by professional doctors and having several doctors taking physical records lends a great deal of credibility. Some kind of video or photography might strengthen the personal story but video and photography can be edited by a teenager with photoshop, so better than nothing but not conclusive.
NDE's have been closely examined by a large number of people in the medical field. There is far more than one "obscure study" that has cataloged exactly what happens to the brain in such cases. Obviously, it is not possible to document what happens to the brain and body in every case since by definition an NDE often happens in less than ideal lab conditions. But when every case we can examine shows there is nothing mystical about it should we believe the cases where we don't have data were different? And every time we could get data we were just unlucky?
Something would be more than what you have presented so far. All you have said so far is "I believe, there are great things in life must have been god, you should believe too." I'm sorry that you believing in god is not a convincing enough argument to convince me that there is in fact a god, and that god is the god you describe. Every other religion makes the exact same argument as well as a number of people in regards to their beliefs about ghosts, aliens, talking trees, psychics, fortune tellers, and reading dolphins minds. Obviously you lack any evidence whatsoever outside of personal stories.
Now I am simply left to determine whether you are an idiot, a troll or a poe. We really should make a game show...In door 1 we have Jean Chauvin- Poe!, in door 2 we have The Theist- Troll!, in door 3 we have TWD39- Idiot!, whatcha think guys did I go 3 for 3? Do I get the grand prize?
Play again next week when we have three more theists and you decide idiot, troll or poe!
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Sorry for coming up with fair rules. If you were debating a Muslim, without rules that worked, it would just be a bunch of scripture quoting, from two books full of contradictions.
I'm interested to hear though, if visions during near death experiences aren't brain related, what are they? I want to hear YOUR explanation for it (you haven't really explained anything asked of you after your initial post with any detail, I'd LOVE to hear this though)
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
And here we have a hypocrite who couldn't respond to my argument, and when prodded to do so, responded with mockery.
You are so laughably pathetic I feel sorry for you.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
What arguments? You mean the brilliant claims that sleep sucks and sex is flawed? lol Apparently, you must have never been sick a day in your life. Frankly, I am quite thankful for sleep whenever I am sick or in times of pain. It's wonderful to be able to mentally check out while my body heals.
As for sex, when performed in accordance to scripture, it has numerous physical, mental and spiritual benefits. I sure don't see the flaws there.
Atheists just strike me as miserable people. They hate their bodies, they hate God, and don't see the beauty in life. I really pity you!
What purpose does laughter and taste buds serve in the evolutionary process? They are not necessary features for survival. They serve no biological function whatsoever. If humans are animals, why don't we operate on animal instict like every other freaking species?
The fact that every single human being that has ever lived has been an unique person with appearance and personality tells me that humans had a creator.
Lulz, reread the damn thread you idiot. People have made a dozen or more solid arguments that you have completely ignored.
Theists just strike me as miserable people. They hate their bodies, they hate everyone, and don't see the beauty in life. I really pity them!
You see how stupid and easy to do a generalization like that is? You are only harming your own case with such childish posts.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Hey! Dummy! Someone already went over this, or didn't you see? Are you too stupid to grasp this simple concept? Taste buds are an imperfect way for our body to determine whether a food is edible. Savory meat = good tasting, good smelling. Sugar (which is naturally found mostly in fruit which is very good for you) is sweet and delicious. Do I need to go on?
Laughter is likely merely a form of expression and a emotional outlet. Why it works the way it does is somewhat mysterious but I think a lot of animals can laugh so...?
Um. No...
Humans have complex physical attributes and the most complex mind to have evolved (as far as we know) on this planet. If you get right down to it most people look pretty similair, it's just that we are especially good at drawing differences and reading facial attributes as a unique appearance. With such a complex and incredible organ such as the Brain, with the way we think it works, it would be impossible for us NOT to have different personalities. In addition, different personalities add to the flexibility and adaptility of our species and helps us survive.
Not evidence, not even close. Try again.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Well you do completely ignore the large number of people who have problems in both areas. You focus on the positive while ignoring the negative. Not that it matters, because even if sleep and sex were always perfect it does not support the conclusion that they were created by a super being anyway.
I can't speak for others but I have been extremely sick in my life. I had an antibiotic resistant pneumonia so severe that it led to me being hospitalized for two weeks and left permanent scarring on my lungs. Sleep didn't cure it, nor did prayer. It was cured by a team of medical doctors and scientists who created what was at that time an experimental cocktail of drugs. I still deal with the scarring on my lungs and I'm not praying for my lungs to magically regenerate either, I am putting my hopes that those brilliant scientific minds will figure out more effective methods to transplant lungs before I need them. (Current lung transplant patients only have a life expectancy of 3-5 years I plan on living longer than that) Since I have roughly 30 years before I can anticipate it becoming a serious issue I think my odds are pretty good as pulmonary medicine has been advancing significantly the last few decades. I know there are several other people on this site who have dealt with/are currently dealing with severe medical issues. They aren't trying to cure them by sleeping either.
When sex is performed in ways the scripture forbids it has numerous physical and mental benefits.
Really? Most atheists I know seem quite happy, although I have known some that are miserable. I also know some theists that are miserable and some that are happy. I conclude that whether or not you are miserable has little to do with your religious beliefs. I would postulate that there might be some correlation between depression and a lack of strong religious beliefs, not because atheism causes depression but someone who is depressed is more likely to question the concept of a loving caring god and either leave religion or have anger towards a god they continue to believe in. Either way they are less likely to go to church and praise a being that can supposedly make their life better but doesn't. If anyone has any stats on that I would be interested in seeing them.
Au contraire, I love my body. It is your religion that denies me the simple pleasure of walking around naked and insists that women have to cover themselves up to be "modest" to the point where there are several laws requiring it. Fortunately, those laws are disappearing as religions hold on politics shrink but it is still illegal in most places for women to walk around topless and if I decided to walk down to my mailbox in the buff I could face public indecency charges. There is a nudist camp near where I live that I go to on occasion, I have never met a christian there. Nor is it atheism that encourages the mutilation of genitalia on infants. What kind of love for the human body are you showing when one of the first things you do to a baby is permanently mutilate them? Fucking barbarians.
If god was real I probably would hate him. He would be an evil SOB. Since he isn't real there is nothing to hate except for the people who seek to control us in the name of their invisible sky daddy. I harbor no hate for christians in general as long as you don't pass laws. Unfortunately, most christians feel a need to pass way too many laws and I hate people who use guns to force me to live my life the way they want me to whatever their religious affiliation.
???? We are not the ones who live our lives harboring hope that when we die we will be someplace better. I don't need a better place, I love my life right here. You dream of going to heaven, I am already in heaven.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Medical professionals often fail patients, and many patients like myself walk away frustrated without a real diagnosis. Doctors understand little about pain, and the treatments are pathetic for sufferers of chronic pain. Doctors certainly couldn't cure my intense back pain that I endured for almost a year. But after a Christian brother prayed for me, God's healing power came over me, and I was pain free. This brother also saw his thyroid cancer disappear completely overnight years ago. Another miracle.
You mean like having sex with animals or multiple partners? Yeah, that's real healthy. Please show me a good reference proofing that sex with multiple partners is not risky behavior. At the best, you have to wear a condom which diminishes the experience, and condoms can easily break or come off. Do you play russian roulette as a party game too?