Im not probably what would consider a "theist" i mean i dont adhere to any one religion really, I think its all a bunch of shit with people trying to explain a universe they cant possibly understand. BUT dont you think trying to get "theism" turned into a mental disorder is kinda wrong? I mean theism is a choice, yeah people take it to far, but who the hell are you to try and tell people what they "can and cant beleive?" im probably going to get flamed for this post, but you will just be proving that your as fanatical and dogmatic as any christian fundy. In case you havent noticed alot of countries throughout history have tried to outlaw or erase religious diversity and its never turned out well for both the country and its government. (Germany, China, etc) If somehow you guys succeeded and got theism to be classified as a mental disorder it would be the first step towards a totalitarian state. Pretty soon everyone with an oppinion that didnt adhere to the status quo would be considered to have a "mental disorder." now you can try and change peoples oppinions about religion but actively trying to make a campaign to totally eradicate it seems a tad fanatical?

I was thinking about this on the bus on the way to work today...

Axioms:

Evolution is a proven fact ( current view of the Protistant Church and progressive christians)

If heaven exists, it is a place of eternal bliss

Intelligence is not a factor in whether beings can enter heaven or not (brain-damaged people have the same rights as the rest)

If God exists, he is omniscient.

Suppositions:

All people go to Heaven or Hell after they die.

Proof by Contradiction that Heaven Cannot exist:

Supposition: If humans can go to heaven or Hell, so can lesser life forms

Proof:

Evolution has produced humans over millions of years from simple life forms gradually evolving into the beings we are today.

Therefore there was a time in the past where human-like beings were roaming the earth. These beings must also have gone to either heaven or Hell when they died, as evolution is a gradual process and otherwise it would have to imply that Heaven or Hell has only recently popped into existance to fulfil the need to allow only modern humans in. This argument is too clunky and cannot be maintained if one has belief in an omniscient being.

Therefore animals on earth with the same brain capacity as our precursors (dolphins, border collies) have the same capacity for thought and are therefore allowed into heaven or Hell.

Therefore lesser animals are allowed into heaven or Hell

Therefore All animals including microbes are allowed into heaven or Hell.

Has anyone here (theist or Atheist) actually managed to convince a member of the other side of the existance, or lack of, a "hands on" deity?

If so, what specifically did you use as your persuasive arguments?

Have you yourself converted from one side to the other? What made you do so, and why did this make you give up your previous assertions?

Ian

One of my many arguments against god is the creation paradox I stumpled upon my self. Most have heard the argument "who created god" but I think, like most christians do, this argument is null and void  of a point because god, considered by most to be the all creator, couldn't have created himself. My argument requires us to first discuss what creation is. Ok lets say we are making a new creature (in our minds atleast) , how would we first attempt to conceptualize our new creature? Well I am going to start with color first, lets say you want purple (big purple people eaters =p ), Now shape, lets say egg shaped. At this point you begin to see that we are using items that we see in everyday life. But lets say we want to use colors we have never seen before, or shapes athat do not rely on most common shapes. Thats were it gets hard, because we can not conceptualize beyond what we know. My basic point here is that creating new things is impossible, creation is a reargement of ideas to make a new form of something. You can not even have an idea with out some sort of know information involed, the building blocks of thoughts so to speak. Without the Information you can not think or even "create" or rearange information. But if god is the all creator were did he get said information the first place to create ideas, things, and so on.

There will be a discussion happening this Sunday on the topic of "Does God Exist?" on a Skypecast. If you have a microphone, you can put forth your own viewpoint and we'll have a discussion/debate on this subject. Otherwise, you can simply listen in. It's on this Sunday 9pm-12am (GMT+10, which is Australian Eastern Standard Time), which is 7am-10am Sunday morning EST in the US.

To join: https://skypecasts.skype.com/skypecasts/skypecast/detailed.html?id_talk=5291589

Im talking about the many in the wiccan pagan community believe in 'magick' spelt with a k to differentiate it from stage magic. Essentially can someone give me a good way of explaining that magick does not exist. I mean I need the right way to put my point into words. I can think of the fact that magick as it is often defined on wiccan websites is vague. Can someone give me points to mention about falsifiability, or maybe studies done by science on pagans and there claims of using witchcraft in the modern day?

The first meeting of the two presidential canidates took place at a mega church last weekend. Leading the discussion was Pastor Rick Warren, author the Purpose Drive Life. I was just wondering, what is your opinion of this encounter? Just wondering what people around here may think about this meeting. Thanks for your thoughts.

[EDIT IN BY SAPIENT: I caught about 10 minutes of Stern this morning, ironically the portion when Katy Perry was on.  Howard asked her about this and she said the story is ridiculous.  I did not research her parents nor did I catch any info about her parents involvement in the church however she denied this story was true, said it was ridiculous, and said her parents were at her last three concerts.  She also said her parents dance to her songs, including the I kissed a girl song, and that her parents are supportive and love her music.  She went on to say the story is made up by a British tabloid, and I confirmed the source from below "daily mail" is a British tabloid.  So it appears this story is comparable to the alien abduction stories you read at the check out line... bullshit.]

Since I've apparently become the RRS spokesman for sexual sanity, here's a little article I found at SheVibe. You'll recognize it as the online magazine that gave us THIS GEM OF A POSTER of Kelly in all of her cartoony goodness.  Anyway, kudos to Katy Perry for busting out of her religious indoctrination.  Here's to hoping that she hasn't gone completely nuts already.  More than a few women I've known have turned into sexual disasters when their biology applied the equal and opposite reaction to their right wing lunatic Christian brainwashing.

It occurs to me that you cannot possibly rebut Plantinga's EAAN. For Plantinga's argument takes place prior to reasoning, and is therefore immune to any objection which derives from reasoning. O pwnd in nomine filii patri et spiritus sancti.

Hey all.  It's been a while since I've been on. I appologise, I've been busy. 

The title of this forum is the title of a book I just finished reading.  It's a catchy title, so I figured it'd be a good way to grab someone's attention on here.  The book is written by Becky Garrison. 

If her name doesn't sound familiar, that's fine, it shouldn't.  So why am I wasting your time telling you about this book?  Well, I'm glad you asked.  This is a book written by a True Christian.  HUH?  For all of you who have discussed with me in the past, you understand what I'm talking about and for those of you who haven't you can research my blogs.  Caposkia is my name. 

Anyway, It's written from the viewpoint of how a true Christian feels about of course the atheists in the world today, but more importantly for you, how she feels about Christians in the world. 

This is for all of you arguing with me about how Christians have to be black and white.  How you have to follow a religion and there's nothing outside of religion etc.  She touches on all of this.  I truly think you'll enjoy reading this book and I would like to hear from those of you who have read it if anyone.  If not, I"ll wait till someone finishes it.  It's not a very long book.