I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.

Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.

You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.

I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

but not things that I consider off-subject for science.  How the world was created is one example.    

If you believe a scientist telling you something he thinks happened a billion years ago (give or take some change) I think you are displaying great faith in the scientist or ton of scientists.  I don't have that kind of faith.  "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'" which works perfectly for me.  I believe that totally.

It's true that one's faith in something doesn't prove it's true - for somebody else.  My faith in the Bible being true proves it's true for me however.  You can decide what you think is true - I have decided as well.

As far as the Bible "requiring faith to properly understand" I understand your irritation I think about being challenged with that as if you are not smart enough or don't have the secret password or something.  There is a passage in Job that might help you understand my perspective on this from my study of the Bible.  There are physical things discussed (Job 28) then it switches to spiritual things (28.12).  By the time you get to (28.23-28) you will understand the handicap I'm referring to without faith.

Maybe you could write a paragraph for me from evolution that demonstrates a scientific finding I could investigate that you believe.  Write a paragraph that inspires you and you can apply in your life.

Fonzie wrote:

but not things that I consider off-subject for science.  How the world was created is one example.    

If you believe a scientist telling you something he thinks happened a billion years ago (give or take some change) I think you are displaying great faith in the scientist or ton of scientists.  I don't have that kind of faith.  "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'" which works perfectly for me.  I believe that totally.

How is the creation of the world off-limits for science?

Also, the scientists making those statements have reasoning and evidence to back them up. For example, if you were to ask how they know these statements to be true, they would likely try to explain the methods and processes they used.

So, the reason you believe totally that "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'," is because it's written in a book whose authors were supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit? And, the reason you believe the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit is "the book (which they wrote) says so"? And, the reason you believe all this is because, after already believing it, you see how the experiences in your life verify it? I have a question, have you ever heard of something called confirmation bias?

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the ninth edition of Psychology, by David G. Myers:

 

confirmation bias: a tendency to search for information that supports our preconceptions and to ignore or distort contradictory evidence (sidebar on page 372)

We seek evidence verifying our ideas more eagerly than we seek evidence that might refute them (Klayman & Ha, 1987; Skov & Sherman, 1986). This tendency, known as confirmation bias, is a major obstacle to problem solving. Peter Watson (1960) demonstrated the confirmation bias by giving British university students the three-number sequence 2-4-6 and asking them to guess the rule he had used to devise the series. (The rule was simple: any three ascending numbers.) Before submitting answers, students generated their own sets of three numbers, and Watson told them whether their sets conformed to his rule. Once they felt certain they had the rule, they were to announce it. The result? Seldom right but never in doubt. Most of Watson's students formed a wrong idea ("Maybe it's counting by twos" ) and searched only for for evidence confirming the wrong rule (by testing 6-8-10, 100-102-104, and so forth).

"Ordinary people," said Watson (1981), "evade facts, become inconsistent, or systematically defend themselves against the threat of new information relevant to the issue." The results are sometimes momentous. The United States launched its war against Iraq on the assumption that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that posed an immediate threat. When that assumption turned out to be false, confirmation bias was one of the flaws in the judgment process identified by the bipartisan U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004). Administration analysts "had a tendency to accept information which supported [their preconceptions]...more readily than information which contradicted" them. Sources denying such weapons were deemed "either lying or not knowledgeable about Iraq's problems, while those sources who reported ongoing WMD activities were seen as having provided valuable information." (page 372-373 for both paragraphs)

Obstacles to successful problem solving are the confirmation bias, which predisposes us to verify rather than challenge our hypothesis (page 402)

 

Fonzie wrote:

It's true that one's faith in something doesn't prove it's true - for somebody else.  My faith in the Bible being true proves it's true for me however.  You can decide what you think is true - I have decided as well.

What someone thinks is true has no bearing on what is true. That said, there are plenty of cases where your statement is correct. However, almost all these cases deal with peoples' differing perceptions of things. The fact that God is real to you doesn't make God actually real: the God you speak of might only exist in your mind--He could be a mental construct you created. This would certainly explain why the God you speak of is so readily apparent to you, but not really anyone else.

 

Fonzie wrote:

As far as the Bible "requiring faith to properly understand" I understand your irritation I think about being challenged with that as if you are not smart enough or don't have the secret password or something.  There is a passage in Job that might help you understand my perspective on this from my study of the Bible.  There are physical things discussed (Job 28) then it switches to spiritual things (28.12).  By the time you get to (28.23-28) you will understand the handicap I'm referring to without faith.

Thank you for trying to understand my perspective; I shall try to return the favor. So, do you think of wisdom as a "spiritual thing"? Do you think of it as something that, while not located in the physical universe, can be found "in God" because He is spiritual?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Maybe you could write a paragraph for me from evolution that demonstrates a scientific finding I could investigate that you believe.  Write a paragraph that inspires you and you can apply in your life.

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the eighth edition of Biology, by Campbell and Reece:

 

Such adaptations are the result of evolution, the process of change that has transformed life on Earth from its earliest beginnings to the diversity of organisms living today. As discussed later in this chapter, evolution is the fundamental organizing principle of biology and the main theme of this book.

Although biologists know a great deal about magnolias and other plants, many mysteries remain. For instance, what exactly led to the origin of flowering plants? Posing questions about the living world and seeking science-based answers--scientific inquiry--are the central doctrines of biology, the scientific study of life. Biologists' questions can be ambitious. They may ask how a single tiny cell becomes a tree or a dog, how the human mind works, or how different forms of life in a forest interact. Can you think of some questions about living organisms that interest you? When you do, you are already starting to think like a biologist. More than anything else, biology is a quest, an ongoing inquiry about the nature of life.

Perhaps some of your questions relate to health or to societal or environmental issues. Biology is woven into the fabric of our culture more than ever before and can help answer many questions that affect our lives. Research breakthroughs in genetics and cell biology are transforming medicine and agriculture. Neuroscience and evolutionary biology are reshaping psychology and sociology. New models in ecology are helping societies evaluate environmental issues, such as global warming. There has never been a more important time to embark on a study of life. (page 1 for all three paragraphs)

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Actually, I have an important question I need you to answer:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here.

BL,

I also will ask you a question - what do you have of substance to answer my reasoning?  

Hi Luca,

 

I enjoy discussing these things with you.  I have no doubt you are a decent guy and would enjoy making your acquaintance.  Understand that this very thing, this self confidence you have can be the greatest barrier to finding real Life - Eternal Life in Christ.  Your own character and perceived morality can be your idol which you worship and trust in.  The realization that any great work (like ocean tide, like salvation) is of God and not of ourselves knocks over the idol of pride in the heart.

I believe you to be true as in honest to me with what you believe.  I believe in One much greater than you yourself in yourself Who was not only 100% man but 100% God as well, the Living Word of God - still Living BTW with Indestructible Life, dwelling in His people.  You can see that believing you yet deferring to Jesus is not saying you are dishonest, just that you are not God.  Faith as you describe doesn't follow with a man that does follow with God in the flesh - Jesus, the Lamb of God, through Whom all things were created and in Whom all things hold together. 

As far as interpretation of the Word of God.  At one time God was revealing His Word through the prophets and men moved by His Spirit - today He lights His Word with His Spirit.  Many things are mysterious as to meaning in Scripture.  Many things are very plain.  It is very plain that there is Salvation in no other Name but Jesus for instance, that no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ.  

As for science coming along and telling me something that happened a million years ago - I think it takes a faith in science I don't have to swallow it.  A little story concerning this:  I went to a fossil show with my grandsons that had mosquitoes entombed in amber.  The guy said they had been in there for several thousand years.  If so, they haven't evolved much - but I don't say that except in jest.  I don't believe creation came about through evolution.  I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.  

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.  I think Blacklight was encouraged that Atheistextremest was complimenting him.  That's kind of circular too - so is a "push poll".  Some people are encouraged by herd mentality.  I will admit that I am encouraged when I discuss Bible truths with a brother or sister, but it is not producing something true that's not already true.  There is a point of "lift off" with faith where you really "taste and see that God is good".  There is a point at which the toddler can walk pretty steadily - and later even skate.  

Islam comes under the warning at the end of the Bible - Revelation 22.18-21.  I will just say what the archangel Michael said to Satan disputing about the body of Moses - "the LORD rebuke you".  You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing.  The sheep gather with the goats.  Matthew 7.22 "On that day many will say to me, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast our demons in Your Name and do many mighty works in Your Name?'  And then will I declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me you evildoers.'"  You see you could even try to use them as evidence against His Name - but it's false evidence.  Their own behavior disqualifies them.  We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him.  And it's not hard to understand.  It'a a lot easier than some of your questions.

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bible meanings.  Understand that completely believing in God makes that a non-factor.  I am not complaining about adding context to Bible verses BTW, or hesitant to say that "I don't know".  And in practice, if it appears to me God is not "doing anything" - I can accept God not doing anything and still know God is here and God is God.

You try to live your life understanding things, searching origins of the things, explanations - don't see what could be better than that - more people like that would make a better world.  Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.  

By "limiting myself to the Bible" I am not limited at all.  As far as you rejecting or not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ - Jesus said "whoever is not for Me is against Me."  You are against Jesus don't lie to yourself.  Then you go on to say you aren't against the gospel because you can't be against something that doesn't exist - like "snargwidgets".  I understand that you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God or the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe what Jesus said, that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has a judge; the Word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."  You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.  

I don't know the "morality of Aesop", but I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. That's just another point about having the right focus.  I could go find out something about the morality of Aesop then reject it, but I have rejected it already before finding it out because I am totally sure - in fact married to Jesus Christ.  It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

I'm not judging you.  I'm on the same level as you.  We are talking about something that is above both of us - the Word of God.  The only way for us to discuss is to realize we are speaking each from our own point of view.  The only thing that is required is honesty concerning it - but why should you be offended that I'm discussing the way I see things from my point of view?  I'm not the judge - but from my viewpoint I'm pointing to The Judge of all things.  You can think that the Judge I'm pointing to doesn't exist but He certainly does to me, so from my point of view I'm not judging you - His Word is however.  And I'm not talking about obscure things from His Word - I'm talking about plain things:  Jesus is LORD, etc.

Depravity is a strong word and also a helpless state.  Anyone who has come to God and experienced God's deliverance from depravity in Christ has seen a miracle - exactly The Miracle he needs to see BTW.  It's the right word for me.  This is the sick state every Christian has been in when he/she came to the LORD for deliverance, realizing total helplessness, nothing to offer.

I do try to apply the Word of God in every aspect of my life (not near perfectly of course).  There is a lot of meaning in the digested Word of God and it would be possible to go into the Word of God to find what you want - so again it is a heart issue, an honesty issue.  I think my honest total confidence in the Word of God causes you question.  I don't think you realize how the principle of faith can deliver you from the state of constant doubts and paralyzing questionings about where we are and where we came from and where we're going.  I have no doubts about these things because I have total confidence in God and Jesus and the Word of God.  And I'm not fooling myself in order to accomplish it.  And I'm not parading it as if it's something I have accomplished on my own - I have invested faith in God with His help and He has given me more.  I have exercised my grip on God and He has strengthened it.

How to "draw near to God"?  First, believe in Jesus and be baptized into Him (really, not fake).  This washes our sins away which stand between us and God.  We are given (it's a promise) the "gift of the Holy Spirit",   We have all the tools then to "know God", "know our Master's Voice, feed on His Word, have fellowship with the body of believers (each different parts of the body, Jesus the Head) and draw near to God.

I also will ask you a question - what do you have of substance to answer my reasoning?

 

I accept the Bible as the authority yes - if science disagrees it is off limit to me.  You have faith in the scientists' reasoning and proofs (do they disagree with other scientists BTW?) - I don't have that faith.

Yes I have "confirmation bias" as I define it:  Proverbs 21.2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart."  In order to be spiritually healthy we need to justify what we think and do - which makes sin a double slippery slope.  Yes, I believe the LORD and have committed my way to the LORD.  And I am happy with that decision - it is proving right.

Yes I believe wisdom is a spiritual thing not a "bag of tricks" or "methods".  Actually I believe it is the presence of God.  You can understand this perspective by reading Proverbs 1-9.

Your Biology blurb and study didn't cut it for me.  I think these studies and applications are hilarious actually.  What is "falsely called knowledge" has produced a lot of studies and far reaching faith applications for the wowed science faithful.   Several scientists believe global warming is a hoax BTW - I just mention that as a glitch in your science footing.   

The other part of what you copied just appears to be an investigation of what God has created.  It will take a long time to do that - more time than we have....

Fonzie wrote:

Hi Luca,

 

I enjoy discussing these things with you.  I have no doubt you are a decent guy and would enjoy making your acquaintance.  Understand that this very thing, this self confidence you have can be the greatest barrier to finding real Life - Eternal Life in Christ.  Your own character and perceived morality can be your idol which you worship and trust in.  The realization that any great work (like ocean tide, like salvation) is of God and not of ourselves knocks over the idol of pride in the heart.

I believe you to be true as in honest to me with what you believe.  I believe in One much greater than you yourself in yourself Who was not only 100% man but 100% God as well, the Living Word of God - still Living BTW with Indestructible Life, dwelling in His people.  You can see that believing you yet deferring to Jesus is not saying you are dishonest, just that you are not God.  Faith as you describe doesn't follow with a man that does follow with God in the flesh - Jesus, the Lamb of God, through Whom all things were created and in Whom all things hold together. 

As far as interpretation of the Word of God.  At one time God was revealing His Word through the prophets and men moved by His Spirit - today He lights His Word with His Spirit.  Many things are mysterious as to meaning in Scripture.  Many things are very plain.  It is very plain that there is Salvation in no other Name but Jesus for instance, that no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ.  

As for science coming along and telling me something that happened a million years ago - I think it takes a faith in science I don't have to swallow it.  A little story concerning this:  I went to a fossil show with my grandsons that had mosquitoes entombed in amber.  The guy said they had been in there for several thousand years.  If so, they haven't evolved much - but I don't say that except in jest.  I don't believe creation came about through evolution.  I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.  

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.  I think Blacklight was encouraged that Atheistextremest was complimenting him.  That's kind of circular too - so is a "push poll".  Some people are encouraged by herd mentality.  I will admit that I am encouraged when I discuss Bible truths with a brother or sister, but it is not producing something true that's not already true.  There is a point of "lift off" with faith where you really "taste and see that God is good".  There is a point at which the toddler can walk pretty steadily - and later even skate.  

Islam comes under the warning at the end of the Bible - Revelation 22.18-21.  I will just say what the archangel Michael said to Satan disputing about the body of Moses - "the LORD rebuke you".  You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing.  The sheep gather with the goats.  Matthew 7.22 "On that day many will say to me, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast our demons in Your Name and do many mighty works in Your Name?'  And then will I declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me you evildoers.'"  You see you could even try to use them as evidence against His Name - but it's false evidence.  Their own behavior disqualifies them.  We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him.  And it's not hard to understand.  It'a a lot easier than some of your questions.

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bible meanings.  Understand that completely believing in God makes that a non-factor.  I am not complaining about adding context to Bible verses BTW, or hesitant to say that "I don't know".  And in practice, if it appears to me God is not "doing anything" - I can accept God not doing anything and still know God is here and God is God.

You try to live your life understanding things, searching origins of the things, explanations - don't see what could be better than that - more people like that would make a better world.  Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.  

By "limiting myself to the Bible" I am not limited at all.  As far as you rejecting or not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ - Jesus said "whoever is not for Me is against Me."  You are against Jesus don't lie to yourself.  Then you go on to say you aren't against the gospel because you can't be against something that doesn't exist - like "snargwidgets".  I understand that you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God or the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe what Jesus said, that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has a judge; the Word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."  You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.  

I don't know the "morality of Aesop", but I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. That's just another point about having the right focus.  I could go find out something about the morality of Aesop then reject it, but I have rejected it already before finding it out because I am totally sure - in fact married to Jesus Christ.  It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

I'm not judging you.  I'm on the same level as you.  We are talking about something that is above both of us - the Word of God.  The only way for us to discuss is to realize we are speaking each from our own point of view.  The only thing that is required is honesty concerning it - but why should you be offended that I'm discussing the way I see things from my point of view?  I'm not the judge - but from my viewpoint I'm pointing to The Judge of all things.  You can think that the Judge I'm pointing to doesn't exist but He certainly does to me, so from my point of view I'm not judging you - His Word is however.  And I'm not talking about obscure things from His Word - I'm talking about plain things:  Jesus is LORD, etc.

Depravity is a strong word and also a helpless state.  Anyone who has come to God and experienced God's deliverance from depravity in Christ has seen a miracle - exactly The Miracle he needs to see BTW.  It's the right word for me.  This is the sick state every Christian has been in when he/she came to the LORD for deliverance, realizing total helplessness, nothing to offer.

I do try to apply the Word of God in every aspect of my life (not near perfectly of course).  There is a lot of meaning in the digested Word of God and it would be possible to go into the Word of God to find what you want - so again it is a heart issue, an honesty issue.  I think my honest total confidence in the Word of God causes you question.  I don't think you realize how the principle of faith can deliver you from the state of constant doubts and paralyzing questionings about where we are and where we came from and where we're going.  I have no doubts about these things because I have total confidence in God and Jesus and the Word of God.  And I'm not fooling myself in order to accomplish it.  And I'm not parading it as if it's something I have accomplished on my own - I have invested faith in God with His help and He has given me more.  I have exercised my grip on God and He has strengthened it.

How to "draw near to God"?  First, believe in Jesus and be baptized into Him (really, not fake).  This washes our sins away which stand between us and God.  We are given (it's a promise) the "gift of the Holy Spirit",   We have all the tools then to "know God", "know our Master's Voice, feed on His Word, have fellowship with the body of believers (each different parts of the body, Jesus the Head) and draw near to God.

 

My self confidence, my pride, are not absolute. I have not made my mind on them, and they can change. My own character and perceived morality could become idols to worship, there is the possibility in everyone, but as of now it's not so; I watch myself from this risk constantly. If as I describe [faith] doesn't follow with a common man, then are we saying that there are explicitly different types of faith? Or is every "kind" of faith sharing roots, some properties? Another thing: talking about trust, confidence, if you say you have confidence in a person, do you anyway take what this person says as having some truthness value? (I bet this question has been asked countless times) Yes, in the bible many things are mysterious and many things are very plain. It *is* for example very plain that there will be the judgment day, but it is less clear when. I am not sure I understand what you really mean with "science telling what happened a million years ago". We understand stars are so big they may live billions of years, we understand that because we observe the universe in expansion then probably going in the past it retracts to his "birth" (and the background radiation is evidence for that), and so on... In the end science is a weak statement, so you do need a lot of facts to back it up. That's the strength in it. So what we see is the leftover from billions of years ago, which means that that past is present in here, it's not like... vanished. It's a link to that past because they were there. So the whole point in science is creating a system that being backed up with facts it's true, there's no need to believe in it. Obviously this means that there are limitations, but until now it served our purpose pretty well. That you can "taste and see that God is good" is and remains subjective. The real problem has always been: can 'God' or who for 'it' produce something that is objective? Or for example how can you tell if a proposition ("is Jesus God?", "is verse X:Y true?&quot is true or false in that system? Is there causality? Logic? Order? If not how can we, being that are functioning on causality/logic, rely that system? Apart from that, the circularity of the bible is not always a problem. I mean, in the context above it could apply like this: are there words supported by facts? The bible tells about 'God', but what would change is this 'God' was named 'Gjoi943'? If you are using words to support words, then there is nothing. When words enter in contact with reality, then you can begin to understand what do they mean (and if they have an existing equivalent). "You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing." I'm not sure what you mean by that. Maybe it's like Mat. 7:5? Anyway, if you for the first 'faith' mean faith in God, what other comparable faith could you have to try to "convict faith in God" (for comparable I obviously mean "which answers to the same needs&quot? "Their own behavior disqualifies them. We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him." And islam don't? Hebrews? Baha'i? Wiccans? I don't get it. I know that believing renders the "I don't know"s a "non-factor" (and by "I know" I mean "I know", not "I imagine&quot. In fact it's called "believing" not for nothing. The problem however arised in the past when humans started investigating reality and saw that it's not entirely as described in the bible (obviously 'humans' includes also 'not christians'). I am not sure "spiritual house" is the correct term for me trying to understand things and obtain explanations. In a certain sense it goes obviously to touch morality, how I interact with other people, and what are my opinions about them, but it's only a part of it. And then it's not exactly that I'm doing the work myself, I rely on works of other people. Your "construction site" is efficient and productive in the beginning, but has a limited scope (go fast and has no way of developing later). I try to build something that lets me understand why I act like I do, and try to understand why others act like they do, for example. I am not satisfied from usual "judgments" like "this guy is doing bad things, so he's evil". I try to intuit or analyze why someone did (for example) a bad thing, and this could help me like it could help him. So does it require a lot of work? Absolutely yes, but the results are the best you can wish for. Part 2: as the most pacifist religion in the world, buddhism, had its kamikaze; christians too had (and have) their serial killers, snipers that shoots in the crowd, things like that. Little note: I am not making it a religion vs religion thing, I'm not even saying the fault is religion's, although these "practices" share some properties. Back to us: it doesn't matter that probably for you those were not true believers. What matters is that they did something they thought was ordered from "above", they did not knew why they committed those crimes. So as said before my problem is with this irrationality, is with "not knowing", and religions obviously say man can't know. By doing that, you can justify very ugly actions. I don't care if a god/religion preaches only good, love, or whatever, not knowing reasons and explanation is demonstrably wrong, in good or in bad. And often the game is just in the words, words like "life", "good", "god", which have not an objective meaning. Or in concepts. An example: Jesus was said to be 100% man and God. Can you verify that? Do you know how it could happen? Do you know what it means? Do you know what it's like to be God (doesn't mean 'what it feels like')? Obviously I'm not expecting an answer, I just want to make people think what do they know in the end. The "judging" I was talking about before appeared again when you say Jesus said "or with me or against me". As said, I'm not against him, I simply don't care. You could have used for example "who is not against me is with me". Jesus said that too, if I don't go wrong. And if I remember well he said he is near sinners, and the one that hates him. He said he wants to be like a friend. Then there is "but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true": well, that's the point because how can I retain it true if I don't see it being true? And also if apparently he cannot do anything for me, he has not appealing to me? To be honest most christian people (and books) said that because of following Jesus they are superior to other religions and non-believers -- and if the god/s/des of a particular religion exist then probably it would be like that. I'm not offended if you talk about things for your point of view. But if free will exists, then you're exercising a little judging. Small how much you want, but it's there. You may have total confidence if God and Jesus, but in the end what do you know about those questions? What is your place in this world? It's not your confidence that causes me question, as I said it's not new, but it's how you arrived there. Well, it's not a great thing believing in Jesus first to commune with God. I think this instead should be avoided until I don't know, something makes you believe? I mean, for a more sincere faith... But it wasn't this the point. Instead, if traditions and rituals are just that, apart from "gifts" and "tools" I see only "His Word" as something, how do I say it... tangible. So, are our inborn tools sufficient? Is the bible just tradition or it couldn't function without it?

Jeffrick wrote:

 

    In fact I believe you so much I encourage you to go join you jesus and his daddy in the  happily life ever lasting as soon as possible.  With your glee and adherence why haven't you committed suicide already?

    Peace be with you brother, only god knows that you realy need a piece.  Dilentin by your choice of words:   take your meds and irritate us in the morrow; if you could be so religiously kind.

I seem to be getting quite a bit of of mileage out of this post lately.

Nothing unusual, right guys? Not even a mysterious "block cipher" contained in the '4 mysterious smileys' in this 'smiley collage', right guys?

Just checking... delete if necessary.

Luca,

 

There is "one LORD, one Faith, one baptism, One God and Father of us all.  Other faiths are like the other objects of those faith idols - counterfeits and false confidences, broken cisterns that don't hold water.  

There are enough things very plain in the Bible to keep us busy for a long time before exploring the mysterious.  

Let me ask you this.  If God made a tree on a certain day - you could cut it and count the rings thinking it was maybe 150 years instead of 1 day.  It could be same with the stars.  But if a scientist has a fancy looking machine that blinks and screams "bling" you might take a scientist's word for something beyond his scope, indeed he might take his own word for the same thing.  I don't go to science for spiritual matters - and the Bible tells me how and Who spoke the world into existence.  The scientist may smoke his pipe and pontificate about it but it doesn't impress me.  My faith about whence the world came and where the world goes isn't taken from the scientist - any scientist.  I can read it for myself in Scripture - not only that I find out why we are here and what we are to be about while we're here and why.  The scientist can only find that where I found it.

"Taste and see that the LORD is good" is not as subjective as you think if you go through the "Door" ("I am the door of the sheep, all who go in enter by Me) - I mean some things are spiritually discerned.  You can have the eyes of your faith opened.  You can "know Who you have believed" like Paul.  You can have the Spirit as a guarantee and a guarantee is a guarantee that you know you have.

There is loads of logic in the gospel - deep motivational power.  Our brothers and sisters sang in the fire.  Notice the whole validity of Scripture hinges on, "Is Jesus the Son of God, God in the flesh - and did He die sinless but rather take our debt of sin to the cross?"  If you can't decide yes about Jesus the rest of the Scripture all falls like a house of cards.  If you don't accept Jesus as Savior the rest of Scripture is worthless to you.  It's comparable to saying Jesus "was a nice man" but not the Son of God - this is in essence calling Jesus a liar because He claimed to be God - "before Abraham I Am".  So there is no progress with Scripture unless you go through the door.  The "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  

If you ask me the whole physical world is designed to point us to Jesus.  The Bible uses various metaphors that illustrate this - such as the "parable of the soils", the "parable of building a house on the sand or rock", the "heavens are telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaims His handiwork".  So there is a connection between the physical and the spiritual.  In fact, God becoming flesh bridges that gap.  His teachings using physical things as metaphors and parables are meant to ramp us up into spiritual thinking.

"You can't convict faith....(as wrong, by giving evidence of counterfeit faith or people with faith in the wrong thing).  Just because you can find examples of people that say they have faith but don't - or people who say their faith is in God (but it's not) doesn't mean there is no real faith.  

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" - if you study Jesus, see how He lived, read what He says, then look at the way people are living that say they believe in Jesus and you can tell which is which.  There are false christs - who say they have a message from God.  But God has confirmed Jesus as the Supreme Messenger - "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased - Hear Ye Him!"  Thus I'm not worried about other messengers claiming to be God or be from God that don't acknowledge Jesus as King of Kings.  It's that simple.  

My construction site is not only efficient but farthest reaching - eternal in scope and never ending development exponentially.  If you really want to "understand why you act like you do" - give up what you want to do and rather do what Jesus wants you to do and you'll find more of yourself than you'll ever find with your approach - because you are seeking in faith.  "Give and it will be given to you, shaken down, running over".  Try it if you believe Jesus is LORD.  If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have this saving faith and can't please God.  God loves faith (check Hebrews 11).  Faith gives glory to God and Jesus.  "The righteous shall live by faith".  It's life that is life indeed.  

And sure you have your examples of people that say they believe in God but don't do what God says; for example, "make love your aim."  So you again are trying to convict true faith and true believers with wrong suspects.  So will you be so easily fooled?  Is this your "scientific method" at work?

You're not against Jesus - good.  You "simply don't care"?  Is apathy the opposite of love?  Apathy may be one of the hardest things to deal with.  Jesus said, "would that you were cold or hot - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  I hope for better from you.  There is the promise in Scripture, "whosoever will may come" - which could mean you if you are one of the "whosoever wills".  

I am totally confident in the Bible being totally true and the God of the Bible being God and Jesus being the Son of God - and that total confidence and faith I think can easily be perceived to you as judging - I would guess mainly because it disagrees with your confidence and faith.  As far as being superior to you I don't view myself to be that in any way.  There is no good in me except Christ.  I was dead in my sin and trespasses and Jesus has made me alive in Him.  

I think if you were seeking God in Jesus, I don't mean faking it but honestly inquiring you could find out the answer.  

As far as our "inborn tools" - we do have a spirit that will live forever.  But we are all fallen, broken, trapped.  As the light shines on the situation we begin to see how totally helpless we are before God - but He is rich in mercy.  He delights in forgiving us - to the point of sending His Own Son to die for us.  We are capable of believing the Truth as presented in the Bible - which It Is.

Preliminary field-testing had confirmed that the trollgarithm failed to process the input

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. _{severalth + 50± µ3 time}

 Nonetheless, it was still quite simple to duplicate the Troll's output:
 

Quote: You may think that other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water, but that's an opinion. It is an opinion drawn from the Fountain of True Faith (Jesus), when all other faiths are poisoned wells.   Quote: Effectively, you don't know. With 7 billions people on this world I think there's space for bible's plain things and mysterious things too. God is beyond all space and time, and 7 billion mysteries are nothing compared to his infinite wisdom, and that is the plain truth. Quote: If God created a tree that is 150 years old, it wouldn't matter that it's been made that day. All that matters is god offers us the fruit from the Tree of Life, which lasts for all eternity. Quote: ... Still, astrophysicists have the right to investigate, and if the physics they find makes sense then it's helpful to us -- and indeed it does. That it goes against the bible, hey, not their fault.Created or not, the reality we describe is the one we live in -- and laws that govern stars are active until this day. They have every right to deny the Creator of the universe, and the reality that he is the eternal lawgiver -- not just to stars, but to all things. Quote:  About science and spiritual matters, we diverge in that too. I don't see how God is not subjective if you have to believe as a premise. God is the Premise on which all Truth is built.  Anything else is like a house of toothpicks built on sand. Quote: What are 'some things' that are spiritually discerned? Loads of logic in the gospel? It depends from the point of view, maybe. For me sure it's not so. It's not the bible that relies on "Jesus son of God eccetera", but only the new testament The point is also that it should matter what I accept (Jesus the savior), if something is true then it's true. Why one couldn't argue about it just with words?  All things are spiritually discerned when jesus is your guide.  My point of view leads to the Truth, because Jesus has cured my blindness. And you are correct:  Jesus is true because he's true.  When you accept the One True Word, there is nothing to argue about. Quote: Clearly studying the (supposed) life of Jesus and his messages is not sufficient to determine who understand if one is a true believer or not. You can learn it from history, for example: different meanings in words mean different understanding of concepts. You can say "life", you can say "good", or even "man", but a thousand years ago they were not what they mean today. The True Believer accepts the one True God into his heart -- Jesus. Through Jesus, "good" is "good" for all eternity, and gives "meaning" to the "life" of every "man".

 

Luca,

 

That other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water is more than an opinion - it represents faith in Scripture enlightened by personal experience of the light of the Spirit.  

There is space for many views but numbers don't validate truth.  Don't intentionally forget Noah's flood or that the world we live in is being stored up for fire - a loosening of the basic elements which we know is possible, right?  

As for the experience of the New Life in Christ, just as one can experience guilt of sin the new experience of being cleansed, all things made new, and continually cleansed by the Light are discernible the way we are constructed - spirits in a house.  We can entertain the divine guest.  We are capable of fellowship with God through faith in Jesus.  We are continually cleansed as we walk "in the Light as He is in the Light" - as the sun has a continual cleansing effect on the earth the Light has walking in Christ in faith.

We live in a world where things are not as they appear - and we are all fooled before we realize it.  There are two points of view - the devil's, and God's.  From the devil's point of view God's precepts and instruction are not logical and mocked.  From God's point of view the devil's "king for a day" is an "eternal fool".  "The fool says in his heart there is no God" - if accepted there are billions of people regarded as the most intelligent, most educated, funniest, wealthiest, most powerful... that actually are fools from God's point of view, indeed they haven't even started down the road of knowledge because "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.  God's point of view will stand.  Man is in the middle and it is his to decide who's right.  Though billions take the devil's view it won't stand.  

The whole Bible points to Jesus the Son of God, the Lamb of God.  He was with God before the world was created.  All things were made through Him and for Him.  The gospel was all planned before the world was created.  

The only way to live the new life that God has given us is by "walking in the Light" which is walking by faith in Jesus.  I agree that this wouldn't be possible if the resurrected Jesus didn't actually exist you couldn't do this, but He does and you can.  I understand why this seems illogical without faith in Jesus.   

 

Sorry I didn't get to consider your answer before - it's a long story but I wasn't able to even read your answer for several weeks.  Actually I am short of time this morning in answering it.

Fonzie wrote:

Luca,

 

That other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water is more than an opinion - it represents faith in Scripture enlightened by personal experience of the light of the Spirit.  

There is space for many views but numbers don't validate truth.  Don't intentionally forget Noah's flood or that the world we live in is being stored up for fire - a loosening of the basic elements which we know is possible, right?  

As for the experience of the New Life in Christ, just as one can experience guilt of sin the new experience of being cleansed, all things made new, and continually cleansed by the Light are discernible the way we are constructed - spirits in a house.  We can entertain the divine guest.  We are capable of fellowship with God through faith in Jesus.  We are continually cleansed as we walk "in the Light as He is in the Light" - as the sun has a continual cleansing effect on the earth the Light has walking in Christ in faith.

We live in a world where things are not as they appear - and we are all fooled before we realize it.  There are two points of view - the devil's, and God's.  From the devil's point of view God's precepts and instruction are not logical and mocked.  From God's point of view the devil's "king for a day" is an "eternal fool".  "The fool says in his heart there is no God" - if accepted there are billions of people regarded as the most intelligent, most educated, funniest, wealthiest, most powerful... that actually are fools from God's point of view, indeed they haven't even started down the road of knowledge because "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.  God's point of view will stand.  Man is in the middle and it is his to decide who's right.  Though billions take the devil's view it won't stand.  

The whole Bible points to Jesus the Son of God, the Lamb of God.  He was with God before the world was created.  All things were made through Him and for Him.  The gospel was all planned before the world was created.  

The only way to live the new life that God has given us is by "walking in the Light" which is walking by faith in Jesus.  I agree that this wouldn't be possible if the resurrected Jesus didn't actually exist you couldn't do this, but He does and you can.  I understand why this seems illogical without faith in Jesus.   

 

Sorry I didn't get to consider your answer before - it's a long story but I wasn't able to even read your answer for several weeks.  Actually I am short of time this morning in answering it.

I would say that there are no faiths that "hold water", but we're speaking from your point of view: if other faiths/traditions exist and continue to exist, then a religion is not exactly what you think of it. Keep in mind anybody says of his religion what you say of yours, so a buddhist would not be interested in converting to christianity as you would not be interested in converting to buddhism (although the reasons may vary from person to person). People of other religions lives with no more or no less problems than yourself, that's probably the main answer to your question. Numbers don't validate truth because they are statistics - when talking about reality - but surely they can give ideas/representations of things. I don't get what basic elements are loosening, sorry. The "continued cleansing" is not an exclusive of christianism, I'm pretty sure of that, but not pertaining to a religion doesn't exclude this effect on people. In the end it only cognitively matters what you know. So at that point one could clearly see that "fellowship with X" is not needed, because it really was a fake thing just to begin with, and the 'cleansing' too is viewed as a prison, although maybe a gilded one. Things are not as they appear? Sure, just look at quantum mechanics. Are we fooled before we realize it? Yes, but we're making a relatively good job to free ourselves for old traditions and following the path of knowing who we are really. But about the devil and his friend fritz I'll tell you this: can you choose to be hungry? when you are extremely hungry, can you choose not to steal an apple? The questions can be numerous: can you choose not to breathe? Can you choose to stop your heart? Can you choose to not blink your eyes? Can you choose the exact way to act when in pain? Or confused? I think you use the word "choose" in a twisted and superficial way. The bible does not point to Jesus. Ask a hebrew. The bible points to a messiah, sure, but it's a very old and a not sufficiently precise (for the knowledge reached today) way to do it. In fact, to accept it you have to believe it first. Well I'm not interested in any "new life offer" that has been given to me, don't care from who. Now please let's understand ourselves, obviously this world is in need of people who take in better consideration the world around them, but it's not Jesus or who for he that we need: with them we would obtain an ancient life . The fact is: there's no need for a new life. Faith cannot give you anything that you cannot have without it. Then I repeat: ok, more cooperation, more 'love', more of this sort of thing, but just to make one example: you cannot ask people to just be christians, this would mean changing their roots, so you don't even arrive to the point of judging if it's a good or a bad thing, it's unpracticable, it just won't happen. Time: answer when you want, as long as I'll hang about here and the thread is open I'll see it. Nothing but our agreement is forcing us to discuss here.

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. _{severalth + 52± µ3 time}

Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.

Fonzie wrote:

Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.

 

This is true for the most part.  We don't know why he is blocked and don't want him blocked.  We think it's somehow on his end.  He is not blocked from our site, he is blocked from the server.  My server admin looked into it, we can't seem to figure it out.

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.  I think I was unfairly kicked off "WHAT FAITH YOU" and "PALACE LIFE" as Mephibosheth - if you can show me otherwise, I'm open to see it but not to fake it.

Finally! I didn't think you would ever answer Zarathustra's question...  Perhaps now, the discussion can become a bit more productive?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Faith in Jesus is still working for me - only better and better.

It's not working too well for me. I've been asking the Christian God to provide testable evidence for His existence for almost a week now; so far, I've got nothing. In fact, I broadened my request to apply to any being that could hear me and respond, but I still haven't gotten anything. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just talking to myself in a loud voice...

 

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?

If you have the time and patience, please go back through all few thousand posts and see how Fonzie and I originally started out with one another. Pretty respectful discussion. BUT, I doubt that you'll do that.

You judge me for sarcasm and you engage in it at every chance that you get. You go and make a judgement and you haven't a fucking clue how long this thread has been going back and forth and how many meaningful discussions on it quickly degenerated.

So fuck you.

Brian - I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.