Oh wait.  I remember that guy.  I don't even need to look at the link you posted.  He was that old fart that went on and on and on and on until he was finally shut down because he wasn't worth conversing with.

This is the same guy?  Well jeeze.

Watcher,

You are free to pick your wife, pick your beer, pick your nose and pick your God and be consecrated and dedicated or lax about it all as the case may be.  I have found my God and eternity has more sparkle every day - and it's not at the point of a gun or threat of a bomb either.  I echo what Paul said, "Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my LORD."  I'm not speaking of this as a professor who has not experienced it.  The love of God in Christ is a powerful force.  

As far as proof, I can offer my God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Son Jesus my LORD to you - but I can't prove Him.  He is proving Himself to me 24/7 - thought by thought my faith is being exercised and tested.  (Proverbs 17.3),  "The crucible is for silver, the furnace for gold and the LORD tries hearts."  

A little warning: maybe this is not the longest post or maybe it is, oops, but it needs a bit of attention.
Solomon's "perspective and discovery"... He simply was a son of the tradition in which he grew. Another perspective, in that times, was the one of the Greeks. Why not stick to that? And how can you be sure of his conclusions, expecially considering that today we have more knowledge but above all more awareness and strict guide lines (more certainty and understanding) in conducting experiments...
I mean, "high level" would be "cedar covered with gold"? Would not instead be it a repeatable and extremely well described experiment so that you could be sure of the conclusions? Is there something I don't get?

I did read a catholic and part of a JW bible. The crucifixion is absurd simply because I don't see the need for it, and it starts obviously in the very beginning of the bible: genesis. I'm not saying that the bible does not agree with reality (except for the supernatural parts) - and for 'reality' I mean 'our behavior' - but what I'm saying is that we changed since then (not completely, ok, still we are not the same), mainly because we dwelved into the mind and into societies' behaviors to see why men acts in the way they do. So where's the need for religions? They are needed no more, that's what I see.
If it pleases you to write those condition for the crucifixion, go on, don't keep yourself.

I know John 17:3. But in the eternity what would remain of you? What sense would it make? (the "never tire of it eternally")

So if "the Law" is written in our hearts... Well it's indoubtely a metaphor, as the heart is not a thinking device, so do you see where we differ? I do not like metaphors, I like it as real as it gets. What I simply say is that ok, maybe we don't know where they are, *but* they must be somewhere, and we know we think with our brain. So my question is this: are these laws somewhere? Could they be reached, decrypted? I'm not saying we actually can do that, just that they are in a somewhat physical fashion encoded in us. If not, then it starts to be a little too metaphysic for me to believe it.
And then, what was this "enmity between us and God"? I thought God had even his chosed people, the hebrews... (the context was old testament, I think)
So another thing is that I'm not entirely sure that the (or a generic) choice "do it yourself and fail or do it with the help of Jesus and succeed" is properly a 'choice'... The outcome is decided a priori.
Last is that "shedding blood" seems like "a bad thing plus a bad thing make a good one". But apart from that, wouldn't just some correct teachings prevent all this? Render the blood shedding useless? Maybe this would be a judgement on God's work, and so on God, but I'm not interested (for now) on that... Still it probably is inevitable if you think God created everything and all that. But I'm asking you to just think to it (prevention) as neutrally as you can. We know that we react to the environment, we know that a good education prevents crime and all that stuff. There weren't, so war and violence erupted. To me it seems pretty simple -- so simple even we can do (prevent) it. And sometimes we did.

Ok, "you cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus". So do you think there's a way, even a weak one, with which we could "measure" happiness? Or are we talking about fried air?

I am not sure about what pride you are talking about. "Humility is a learning position", yes, and that's also a prerequisite for science, "pour parler". We understand that humans have a bias, and for that reason (and some others) things like 'double blind', 'triple blind', eccetera were born. At first the investigations were about external things, but then with same method we learned how to investigate ourselves. Like a formula as force=mass*acceleration does not contain anything that suggests human or divine bias, so the amygdala, for example, controls things like fear - and again nothing trascendental.
This leads me to another thing: imagine a man that lives his life "proving" things: make an experiment, obtain a result, repeat. How do you think his godless life could be brought closer to one like yours?
What I mean is this: the man would be godless because he has the "habit" of living considering "only physical things", things that he could measure, describe, interact, show to others (eventually through some devices). So, what "flaw" (if you will) is there in this poor individual that you could appeal to to show he is supposedly going the "wrong way"?
Last, about "try it and see what gets in the way", who says I have not tried?

The gospel is simple if you take it lightly -- or better, the word "lightly" is not a good one, let's say... Superficially? Or, maybe, "not in a complete way"?. I don't. The words "God sent His Son..." are not simple, they have a meaning, everyone of them. What does 'perfect' in "lived a perfect life" means? It really, really, really, is worded wrong, too loose. In fact it's a *logical* mistake so big that it couldn't made right. Unless you by perfect don't mean perfect but not in an absolute way. Being that for every word there is a problem like that, I cannot even begin to argue against that. It's simply too much over the limit. It wouldn't probably even make sense for me to confute that, as all the actors, the entities, need an explanation first. Reinterpreting it's like if you said "(void) sent (void) to (void) for our (void) and (void), lived a (void), (void)..." and so on.
And as it's not enough, there seems to be, as with all religions, too interpretation to get to it. You want to make it function? And you will. But for it to have some beef it takes altogether all another type of work, another method.
For now I could briefly say: there was not need for a messiah, there was no need for a sin in first place, there was no need of death for anyone.

Just the time/respect/dedication are not a correct measure for determine what a man consider a (his) god. I mean, I am pretty sure that for most people it is a correct judgement, I'm not denying it, but there's much more. I don't know how to correctly convey it in english, but I'd say it's the attitude that counts. Substantially, "what you think of it". Money cannot "have created everything", so they could not be compared to a god like in the classic monotheisms. I don't know if it was obvious, but I felt the need to be specific.
Remaining on moneys, I think I need to remember to you that the need for it must be developed, it's not written in us. But it's true that it's a sort of evolutionary behavior that could find his object, his fulfillment in money. Nonetheless, by seeing that it's not the major part of the world that consider money an end I think we can conclude it's not deep-rooted in us.
I'm not sure I would call the search "security and comfort" a 'thirst', they are just needed for a regular life...

Okay John 8:44, (although God is a murderer too ), but that was not the question. It was: "if the devil lies always, then all of what he says is not correct for the biblical standards?" (ethically or what have you).
You need a guide to navigate: well, we're discussing that (maybe some marks around the word 'discussing' are needed...).
Again for John 8:32 that was not the point. Is he saying that knowing is always better than not knowing (and so that knowing that God exists is right) or not? Or wait, are you saying that you must be "His disciple" and then you can be showed that God exists for certain? I don't understand.

Yes, you said previously that "at a certain point it all clicked and fell into place".
Well I've been baptized by the right-hand man of the actual Pope in '85 .
Is there ever a "trial" that went wrong?

Well I don't know exactly your causes nor I am a "pdoc" myself, so I can't say. I think that probably they shouldn't have told you to lay down the bible... Unless it has actually something to do with your bipolarism.
Everybody has "ups and downs", but with bipolarism I understand it's exceptionally amplified, and probably not entirely causal. To understand if it can be considered normal, I think one could ask himself these question: could humanity survive if everyone had it? Would I feel better without it? or something like that (is this the right outcome of gene expression?).

"As to "lied for eternity, why?", well, you won't have to ask yourself will you. You heard it right here in of all places the atheist forum."
Sorry I don't understand.

I remember I read some of your "exaggeration by absurdity". I don't think people wanted that. I think most of the times they knew what they were asking and did expect a relative answer. But I'm me and not them tho I think I'm right.
You "haven't exaggerated with the wrong purpose". Well, I think for now I'm satisfied with that answer. Well, actually maybe not. If the purpose is "do you have something better to offer?" and all that, I think in fact I'm not satisfied.
I am not sure about "consistent with what I believe" means. If you mean you could have said something you don't believe, well I probably can't know -- if you mean that what you believe could not be real, well, simply put "God cannot exist" (not as God, at least).

I more or less agree with the first three reasons you claim for people not liking you answers, although I don't think they represent the majority. The "it goes way back like the war in the middle east" is practically true, I think. But not the "not expecting it to be solved". Maybe we will not see it, but it will be solved. "In one way or the other", I dare to say. About you in this thread, for example, the problem is you say "I don't think I can prove it to you", but a lot of your beliefs touch arguments that have been reached by other ways.
"If even Jesus wasn't able...", then I'd say he wasn't perfect. Sorry. -- "The obvious conclusion" for me is anything than obvious. This is a real good scientific problem. "Why people don't change?" Well I think that the most important thing is that there could be a way, just sometimes one lacks the abilities and so he can't do it. If the argument is right and there's no possibility of success, I'd say that or the person isn't alive or isnt't "functioning as it should".

"Rescued": ok, but I think I asked it before, why should you have fear the death?
What is the "spiritual awakening to life"?
By "by faith I am able to understand God" do you mean the answers come in your mind? Are these answers that are written on the bible?
I'm completely clueless about the "know God like a child knows his dad". It doesn't make a bit of sense, literally.
What is that you call the "grip of faith on life"?
With faith you fight all that but I bet you saw people of other religions do it...

Yeah, discipline is good, but even discipline "is to be disciplined" Too much or too little, either way is bad. The fact is that the bible "teaches" (the right verb would be 'imposes') a lot more than only discipline... It tells you absolutely about "good" and "evil".

The "wilderness" was just an "experiment" to "estimate" the "weight" of this faith, what use you make of it. The origin is a saying that goes like "help yourself that God will help you". So I was just asking if faith (or at least faith for you) intersecates with other skills, so if for every skill what you can do is more important than faith.

"Faith is like confidence in a person" oh, this is something I like, probably the one I like the most. I'm very interested in how much this comparison is correct in all his facets.
Why "a person"? Do you actually feel that?
Anyway confidence is not the correct tool. Ignoring without much attention that a person has a bias (just in this case), what a person tells you should be considered ignorant and useless unless it shows some facts. What other way is there?

I don't see how the friends of Job are rebuked. I mean, please tell me the exact verses, because I don't see them. Their arguments are not addressed. I just see God saying "I'm powerful, you're pitiful, do what I say". Which by the way it's false because we know what in those segments of text is said we don't know (I mean, we could even make some clouds and some lightnings -- and I don't say it as a pride, I just say as "we understood and we are able to repeat that experiment").
What the bible means is this.

Let's be clear. There is no god. So any appeal to its non-existent authority is a guaranteed failure.
Becoming as a child, I understand that you think your god wants you to be effectively retarded, to not question and not think but, in the real world it doesn't work that way.
There is no sin, because there is no god to offend, so your disgusting, barbaric and bloody human sacrifice is just a nasty fairy tale.

And sonny... trust me, you aren't old enough or smart enough to step into the parental role here, and not with me for damned sure.

LC >;-}>

Louis,

You realize you are stating something you cannot prove - you are making a statement of faith because from your viewpoint you think you see "clearly" there is no God and maybe your desire there is no God but you bring no proof for that faith - your faith that the unseen doesn't exist.  Indeed there IS no proof for that -  quite the opposite.  But it is possible to love the lie and hate the truth and boogie on.    

I believe without a doubt God Is and the Bible is the Word of God.  That is what I see through the eyes of faith that is not seen by you, real to you or desired by you.  I have proof for myself and proof that makes sense to others that have faith in God.  The fact that I can't prove God or the Bible to you isn't an ingredient of my faith.  The fact that you don't see a God or a God created universe but instead some perspective you can't prove to me or even attract me to seeing with your winning ways and noble demeanor isn't a new or unique thing.  It was even true that people met Jesus face to face - even saw miracles - but didn't believe He was LORD and SAVIOR.   

As far as there being no sin and the gospel sacrifice being barbaric my position on that is:   that is "calling good evil and evil good".  Your position is there is no sin and no conscience?  I believe the opposite 100%.  

I am glad to be free of any parenting responsibility concerning you; in fact, I never desired it or any part of it in my wildest dreams - and believe me that says a lot.  If something from the Scriptures offended you, just realize I am the paperboy not the publisher.  

We have a bet on here - we are each.. .. .. .   .       .            .                      ~     one heartbeat from finding out who wins.  It obviously won't be both of us on this bet.  I am hoping you win in the end, but you won't with your current hand.  You could fold and get a new hand.   God has the Royal Flush and He's willing to share IT with you.

Luca,

One of my answers is a general one - that with faith in God (like confidence in a man) most all of these questions wouldn't exist in their current form at least.  It wouldn't be a question of faith then - which I think most of yours are - it would be a question of what the Scripture says, understanding and aligning with it,  I will look over the salient points like you request but I'm not sure what I missed - not intentional.  Please mention them and I'll try. 

First off you were in Song of Solomon rather than Ecclesiastes with that "daughters of Zion thing".  I have confidence in Solomon's conclusions because I have confidence in the God of the Bible - that it was written as stated in 2 Peter 1.21, "No prophecy ever came by the impulse of man but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."  

Why not Greek?  I don't hear my Master's voice there.  Why not Joseph Smith?  Same thing.  The sheep know their Master's voice.  

You can be sure of conclusions of science today?  Why do they reverse things?  I'm sure some people put their faith in science - I'm not saying science is bad in itself, study of the world and laws, etc.  It's just not God.  

Solomon conducted an experiment that I said was "high level".  First, God gave him a miraculous gift of wisdom (1 Kings 3.5-12).  Second, God gave his kingdom peace so he wasn't bothered with enemies.  Also he had plenty of money.  So, money, time, wisdom, slaves to build, 1000 wives & concubines - a high level experiment to find out what's what and what man should consider important to do in life.  I think it is repeated in a small way by almost everybody.  

Quite the opposite, rightly understood I don't think man has basically changed.  The Bible describes man to a tee.  

Where's the need for "religions"?  Well, Jesus didn't promote "religion".  It was the "religion" leaders of the day that were His fiercest opponents - the Pharisees and Sadducees.  Here's the difference:  The "Righteousness of God" in Christ is a gift to be received through faith.  We can't produce it by "religion" so God gives us the gift of justification through the death of Jesus.  

The "crucifixion is absurd"?  It wasn't my idea.  At the point of it happening Jesus ask His Father if there was another way but there wasn't.  It shows God is serious about His Laws and also serious about sin.  He wanted to forgive us and He found a way to satisfy both His Justice and His Mercy in the death of His Son.  

You are right it starts at the beginning of the Bible - there are prophesies and glimpses all through the Old Testament.  There are "types" and stories that point to the coming Messiah and gospel.  

This fact that you are not trying to "earn" salvation through "religion" or "works" is a refreshing difference.  When you are trying to earn salvation through works they are polluted at the start due to a selfish interest.  So it's a bad experience.  In the practice of accepting the grace of God through Jesus Christ however you are free from all that bad trip.  You are responding to the love of Christ plus you are already saved - "through grace you have been saved" Ephesians 2.8  

The purpose of metaphors is like parables - to ramp up into thinking about spiritual things.  Faith is outside the physical senses so you compare things in the spiritual realm like "the seed and the sower, the good ground, the thorny ground, etc."

As far as "real as it gets" - the true reality is the unseen reality because it will never be destroyed.  What we see in the physical world is obviously on the downhill slide, rot and rust.  

I think as far as the "laws written on our heart" - God draws near to us, gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, the debt that's between us and God is removed through the blood of Jesus.  Just as the spirit of a man is the thing that knows the thoughts of a man, the Spirit of God is the One Who knows the thoughts of God and enables us to Know God and understand the Word of God.  Written on our heart means God is very close to us I think, dwells in us (John 14.23).  

It was quite a while before I sensed the reality of the Holy Spirit within me as promised in Acts 2.38.  It was I'm sure, but there is a growth from baby to toddler and teen and maturity.  But it being there doesn't depend on knowing it's there.  God promises it and He will do it.  The Holy Spirit does the "decrypting", the bridge between us and God.  

The enmity between us and God is the fact that we have all broken God's Law - sin.  This fact has brought about spiritual death, also being trapped in sin.  Jesus is the first and only One to live without breaking God's Law, so when He died, He didn't actually have to die.  He died instead carrying our debt of sin not His.  He died for us.  But also His death was the death of Death, because when Death took a bite out of Him Death destroyed itself.  He raised from the dead to an indestructible life - this is all in the Scriptures trust me.

Teaching wouldn't prevent all this.  Adam and Eve lived in a perfect environment, no experience of sin, no guilt complex.  They knew what not to do and they did it.  So man fell under perfect conditions.  Fallen man needs a Savior.  

Instead notice the behavior of children - "don't do this" is a big motivation to do exactly that.  So what is needed is not just teaching or reformation - but "re-birth" - a new heart and mind.  All things made new.  

The main appeal is the love of God in Christ - which is the power of the gospel.  It pleases God to save men through the foolishness of the gospel (Bible words not mine) - the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men.  

Money and science, things, wife, self - are all not bad or good in themselves - it's a matter of the heart as I think you say; for instance, to make one of these things God throws everything out of sync.

You were baptized.  I was baptized when a teen to impress a girl.  Later at college I realized something was wrong and started reading the Bible for real and at a certain point it clicked.  

As far as some of my answers "illustrating absurdity" - there is the aspect of answering a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes - yet not answering a fool according to his folly lest you be like him yourself.  There is navigation in all this.  I'm ready to be corrected if you can show me where I answered wrong in this realm.

I fear death if aware things aren't right with God.  Since they are right with God and I'm determined to keep them that way I don't fear death.  And I do want to live forever because I want to live forever with God and Jesus and brothers and sisters.

Absolutes is another thing about faith in God and the Bible.  This faith settles the absolutes and there are absolutes.  It's actually comforting to have faith in a God with absolutes that don't change - it's a big ingredient of security. 

Here's one way the Bible describes the spiritual awakening.  "And you who were dead He made alive in Christ... Ephesians 2.1   God can awaken faith in us leading to the "new birth" in Christ.  

The "wilderness" of our wanderings after coming out of the "Egypt of our sin" is another metaphor that expresses the development process of "repenting" and "believing" then sorting it out and going on to maturity in Christ.  Just because several have failed the process doesn't mean Life in Christ isn't there to be had.  We don't want to go through life imitating everybody's failings.  

Why "faith" is like "confidence in a person"?  God has become a man (Jesus) in order to bring us to Himself.  If you have confidence in the man Jesus - believe in Jesus in other words - you will be saved.  

Ok, I've probably missed some of your questions.  There's NO SPACE between your lines on my view.  Just try to restate the ones I missed.   

EDIT

About the title: do you *wish* there was someone to arbitrate?

I know there aren't spaces, try to answer in another window while keeping the original one (which has spaces) in another.

It's not matter of faith or not faith... I couldn't help but think that you got confused with these terms. What has faith to do with observing a thing and it goes one way, then reading about it and it's described as another way? It's a simple discordance. But when there's faith another question follows, by my reasonment: where do faith comes from? And expecially: what would be of faith without a sacred text?
About the posts: while it's true that it may not be necessary to answer every specific point, the most important are, well... important, but they too can "expire". If I'll have time I'll make a recap of what I feel has not been correctly addressed and still need to be.

Now ok you say "I have confidence in Solomon because I've confidence in the God of the Bible", but then again you said you got confident with the bible by verifying personally that what was written is true... So what are you saying now by "I have confidence in the God of the Bible", that you need no more verifications? If not, then you still need to see if what Solomon said was true...
What the word 'prophecy' means in 2 Peter 1:21? If it's only a prediction, then I have to disagree with that verse. Maybe it depends also from the magnitude of the prophecy, I don't know.
Always on Solomon: was he so wise? I can't have a proof that he received wisdom from God, but from what I see even if he was above the average he was lacking a lot of what we have today. That's why, I repeat, I don't see wisdom in his actions. And why I say he started with prejudices. It seems it all started for failing, so it's not an experiment, it's a story with a moral in the end. Solomon did not consider every opportunity, and above all what he did consider was vanity. But I agree that part of it is experienced by everyone in his life.
I'm sorry if the argument is getting long, but about Ecclesiastes 3:11 there is much other to say. What does it mean "beautiful"? *We* are the one saying it's beautiful, *we* are being the judges. And then you really should say what is really being beautiful... If you are referring to the genital organs of plants, commonly called "flowers", it may be (although probably not the ones that smell of rotten meat or feces), but is beautiful a plant that eats flies? Are beautiful the viruses that kills you? And the insects and parasites that eats you eyes or some other organ? I'm sorry to be so graphic but really, we need to estabilish a common ground, here.
Then, always about Ecclesiastes 3:11, it speaks of "eternity in our hearts". But if I say "no, I don't want it", then do you accept it or do you search a reason to justify it, to claim it's wrong? I mean, you say "it's there, maybe buried under something, but it's there", but I tell I cannot find a single reason for eternal life. Sure, for life long as I desire, yes, but *eternal* is a really big, huge thing, really too much.

Man has not changed a lot biologically, but the culture did. While it's true that our impulses are the same because the brain is the same, we don't exist in a vacuum. Our thinking is changed by environment (and by the way this is one of the reasons because free will is impossible) and by knowledge (if not, "what" would we think?). And I think the last one is part of men.
I would likely say a no (and obviously turn to neurology, neuropsychology, or whatever) to "The Bible describes man to a tee", but before that could you at least explain dunno, how much deep it goes in the explanation? How much do you *need* to go deep in explaining man? I mean, elaborate a little...

I knew that you don't "hear your Master's voice" in the Greek tradition, but see where it leads to: do you think they (the greeks, or anyone else) did? They seemed all pretty convinced. And what's the order in this acknowledging the voice? Do you "hear the voice" first and then sift through the religions and suddenly "that's the right one!" or do you have to be "trained" first? I say this because... I mean, I remember you said "knowing God is inborn", but it's still too vague. And it doesn't finish there, there's a discrepancy between too many things, one is for example that it would not be possible that so many religions would have developed, or that people in the past had so little scientific knowledge.

I am not sure I get what you are saying about science. "Conclusions" are understood to be temporary, who is "reversing things"?
And also "put their faith in science": science doesn't need "faith", but maybe you are meaning something bigger? Like "purpose of life"?
Last: "science is not bad" well I'd give it a bit more value than that... Would you have a bible in your hands without printing machines? Without communication devices? Without transport? I mean, I hope you give them a consideration...

Okay, Jesus didn't promote religions (but so what about Peter? And Saul/Paul?), but we are "social animals", and there's no way that people follow a faith without forming a group. In fact religion is a social thing, would be faith the same without religion? Think to the many factors: translations, traditions (which obviously is a big part of faith and religions), clashings, and so on.
I am not sure what you meant with "Righteousness of God", maybe morality? But I don't see why faith could not be produced by religion, sorry. It may even be considered an autosustaining circle. And I think the facts are with me.

Crucifixion was not your idea, but someone evidently thought of it, if it's there -- I don't think I have to say I don't ascribe this idea to God, do I? But there was really a way? Yeah, avoid the sin in first place.

"prophesies and glimpses all through the Old Testament" well I think you know we have a hebrew friend here, furrycatherder, probably you should listen to what she has to say.

The problem with metaphors is that you are not speaking of things by themselves, and this lead to confusion. To prepare a metaphor you need a context and all that, but in the end it's fake. I want to talk about a chair? Then I say "chair". I want to talk about electrons? Then I say electrons. Metaphors are present when one doesn't know things. In fact think of all the advantages we gained when we started describing things correctly: there shouldn't be the need to hide behind metaphors.
And then, only because faith is outside physical senses it doesn't mean it's not... How do I put it, "pertaining to this material reality", it doesn't mean it's trascendent. If you know it relates to you, then you know your brain is involved in the process, and the brain is physical. Unless like in yoga you assign to a part of our brain the function of "transducing", of a "door" to the spiritual world.

I would say that it's not the point that "the true reality will never be destroyed", but *if* we are able to access to it from here, from where we are.
And could you tell me where this "spirit of x" that knows the thoughts of x comes from?
John 14:23 says what it says, but so if the word is in you because you accept Jesus then are not you near to God? Are not you in an anti-paradise? (anti- as "just before")

The holy spirit is promised by God (it is said), but it doesn't matter if you don't feel it. In fact in that case (mine for example) how could you say it's there?
But it's interesting that it grows and that it's a bridge, as I was saying. But the question is always the same: what would be of it if there's wasn't and education, a bible? And not only that: is the person that make the spirit "grow" in himself? How do you feed it? (just to see if our ideas/experiences collide)

I'd say that this enmity is said in genesis to exist with the characters there, but we have not broken any law, "Adam and Eve" did. The part about death is clearer now -- but I still don't see the need for all this drama. That all this is in the bible is right, but considering how many interpretations there are out there I'd say there's much more.

Teaching would have prevented sin, why not? It functions today, why not millienniums ago? Well, thinking about it you're practically saying that knowing things doesn't change morality/ethics. At the moment I cannot help myself but say that it's not correct.
I get the impression you're using the word "perfect" a bit too lightly -- but I will focus on this: how is it possible that they knew what not to do *but* no guilt complex? The two things must exist together, if not what would it mean to do something you shouldn't? Nothing.
Then again how could it be that people there were cheated? If everything had been really perfect, this logically could not have been happened. Not only that, but imagine if God told them *the reasons* for things, or imagine if he instructed his "children" of the snake: no apple.
In the end I don't see how one could mean this story as a real story: when you start applying some reality to it there are too many problems, too many "story devices" for making the plot function.

Yes, some children respond negatively to "don't do this", and in fact Adam and Eve seem children, but let not some events be a judgement for everything, expecially in a "perfect environment".
And then you're saying "they needed a new heart and mind" -- well, so what was before was a failure? The supposed free-will is evil? Why this mess when simply the things could have been "new" from the beginning? I mean, they were "new", the thing doesn't even make sense...
Eventually we'll get to discussing free-will vs environment.

"to make one of these things God throws everything out of sync."
Out of sync?

It is not a matter of "answering a fool" according to him or not. It is a matter of understanding what did he ask. If you're not sure, arm yourself with patience and ask if he did really mean it. Answering absurdity with absurdity stops the discussion. How can a discussion continue? With informations to discuss about.
Do you really think you could stand to be "corrected"? What would mean to you that you got something wrong? What would happen to your life if you were wrong? That's reason I'm asking if you are just saying it or you do really mean it.
In fact, I don't see questions from your part.

You told me that you have fear of death if "aware things aren't right with God", but the question was why did you have fear of death *before* you "opened the bible" in college. Or is the answer the same?
Now, if you want to live forever, may I ask what do you plan for what you'll be doing... forever? I admit that living eternally may be scarier than a finite life...

Absolutes give security, sure, but some spice in our lives is a good thing. The point is I don't see absolutes (yes, I sort of know the ones claimed by religions, but they never proved to be so absolute), could you name some?
But think about it: do you *experience* those absolutes? What would really change in your life without them?
As a marginal note, I've been through both states (belief and nonbelief) in my life like many people here, and while having absolutes is reassuring, to not have them is relieving. But then it's not really that there are not absolutes, simply there are not "absolute" absolutes, there are absolutes but within a context. Which I think it's the only thing that makes sense.

There are multiple times in the bible where the spiritual awakening is described, but if I remember well I was asking about you. The fact is that those words are not really so different from the ones used for other gods.

What is the judging meter of "wilderness", "repenting", and "believing"? Emotions, isn't it so? Too many emotions, metaphors, and too little knowledge and explanations for my tastes.
Then to say "just because several have failed" is euphemistic at best, when the major part of the world has "failed" (by this christian standard).

If faith was like confidence if a person just because of Jesus, then what could have been faith like before him? I think there is something else. I mean, I think all religions share this property of faith, from Sai Baba to old paganism to old animism, because all religions have something to do with men.

For Job, like everyone else, trying to find an explanation for "things falling around him" is reassuring. But if there isn't an explanation for them, then there isn't an explanation. Now I am sorry to put this so in this atheistical way, but that's what I see. Defining "God" a non-explanation for things that happen, does not give you an explanation.
But there are a lot of other ways to look at that thing: why is "bad" that Job's wife is ill? Because she and Job are suffering? That is what people should be using for judging? Well, ok, actually I think the story does teach (teaching about morality -- recall something?) that that isn't true. A bit of "ask yourself a question, give youself an answer" moment, but I'd like to know your opinion.
Not even "endurance" is a right meter of judgement: it may speak about the "power of it", but not the truthness.
So then: I know the question concerns faith, it's evident because there is no other argument satisfied. But that's the reason why the story is useless *in its complexity*. It does nothing.
"God respect our own ability to think?" No, it would be too long to explain but the core is that we don't know exactly what "ability to think" means, so that statement is just a "pour parler".

Solomon's wisdom gallery is "Proverbs", 3000 of them; italian civil law is 2969 articles; even our collection of local proverbs contains 1148 sayings, and there is one for everyone of the 20 regions. So, am I impressed by Solomon? No, and the reasons are not only numbers, but the content. It's not that they are always wrong, in some situations they got it right, but not only the method of ascertaining those "truth" is wrong, also the insight of other scholars who studied humans produced true theories which are not catchphrases. I hope these are not entirely empty words to you.
An example: you said "he who loves knowledge loves discipline". I wouldn't say so.

"This is one thing I have been trying to get across to you - the principle of faith brings you to a level ground of peace above the questionings and uncertainties man will always have."
I know, don't worry about that. But the problems are still there: what does entails to be like that? Is faith coherent with this world? That is what we're discussing, after all.
And also it is *not* a problem that "God doesn't reveal everything", but it is a problem that that knowledge exists or not. Even if I cannot grasp it, the fact that there is or there isn't changes everything. Because if there isn't, then there are no gods.

Searching knowledge in the bible, traying to get what is "says and means" is a branch of knowledge, I suppose, *but* it's knowledge after interpretation. I don't need to interpret the weight of something, I don't need to interpret a diameter, and so on. In every time, in every culture they mean the same exact thing. Imagine what a bible could signify in one thousand years: even today I don't know how many people have seen a plow, a chicken, seeds, and son on. In that future I really can't predict how metaphors could be understood, and the same is for a thousand years ago. It was different.
Are there some examples of the action of the devil?

"If your statement about the "bad seed is burned by a star" is referring to the judgment,..." no, it wasn't. It was something like the thing above.

That your "life center", the "what's happening now" is not big enough for "two masters", I don't want to spoil it, but it's not exactly a surprise (coincidentally, you're saying that your wife cannot be your master). Has been the "dimension" of this "table" always constant?

The promise of "repent and be baptized" doesn't count for me -- if it exists, I'm destined to hell.

Luca (A pt 2)

A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar.  The senses are represented by faith in Scripture.  First, you "hear" the Word of God (not with just your outer ear but inner ear).  Then you "see" the truth and value of the gospel with your mind and heart.  Then you could "smell" it - it either has the aroma of death or life to you if you don't believe or do.  Then you may "touch" it - make it your own, accept the LORD and His Atoning Sacrifice.  Then you can "taste" and see that the LORD is good and be sustained by it.  It's similar to God feeding the Israelites in the wilderness.  He promised the next day there would be food.  Some probably believed then.  But the next day there it was, manna like hoarfrost on the ground.  They saw it, smelled it, touched it and tasted it.  

The spirit comes from God Who gave it, Who breathed it into man.  The spirit in a man is the life that is beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood.  The spirit in us enables us to be able to accept the Word of God.  It comes at a bad time though - all men are fallen men before God.  So every man that accepts the cure of the gospel is sick when he accepts it.  A good start is to realize one needs the Physician.  

It's not a matter of "feeling it" with regard to your question of the spirit.  Faith is different than feeling.  (hold that thought) - The Word of God describes Itself as "living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow".  With the light of the Word of God you can discern faith from feeling - it is sharp enough and light enough to enable you to discern the difference.  Think how much more efficient it is to spend your life in submission to the Word of God than trying to come up with your own spiritual GPS.  You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own.  For one thing, many things are not as they appear on the surface (for example Job).  

God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them.  It's not popular but effective.  Just like gold is refined by the fire as I said, faith is refined.  Ours is the application and acceptance of it.  To embrace discipline and trial is to get the most out of it - and to acknowledge that God knows what He's doing.  You can use your faith to get more, so you can come out of the poverty of "you don't have" - with "you don't have because you don't ask".  Next, your faith can refine your purpose so "you ask but you don't receive because you ask for the wrong reason - to spend it on your passions".  

So if you ask God to give you a million so you can worship it you won't get it.  But if you ask God for more faith for the right reason - you will.

To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it.  In Christ and His Love and His Sacrifice we see the converting power to come away hating sin totally - a change of heart.  And in fellowship with Him we have great help to do what pleases Him.  Knowing Jesus (as I said) IS Eternal Life - and it starts here.  "By grace YOU HAVE been saved".  Once yo discover that impurity and any sin interferes with your fellowship with Jesus you for sure don't want any part of it.  Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it.  You will have power and reason and help to "guard your heart".  The shield of faith will help you defensively and the Sword of the Spirit offensively.  

(again I only showing the part of your post I consider answered)  

I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.  I glanced at the last few very long posts on this thread and it looked like you guys were talking about the Bible.  I'm just going to address your original post for now.  I remember reading the first couple of pages here awhile ago, so I'm kind of familiar with the thread, but barely.

There sure is mystery.  So what?  And how exactly does faith in Jesus work for you?  Maybe it just helps you get through the day, or your entire life, but that doesn't make it true.  You probably don't believe you should follow all the commandments in the Bible, and the New Testament isn't even clear on what version of Christianity to follow.  And I'm glad you're happy, but that doesn't prove your claims -- unless one of your claims is "Believing in and following what the Bible says about Jesus will make you happy."  There are many happy Muslims and believers in Thor.  The fact that smoking pot makes you happy doesn't mean it's good for your lungs. 

You understand that you can't make us believe, but you recommend it?  I don't want it unless it's true.  Prove to me that it's true however you want.  I imagine you're going to use history and faith.  I don't care if it makes your life better, I want something true.  You should try science and naturalistic philosophy, by the way.

How did your life change?  Was it the Holy Spirit?  You're right, that doesn't count as proof.  It was a subjective experience.  (Correct me if something else convinced you that Jesus is God and rose from the dead and that you should have a relationship with Him.)  And why don't you think that God and Jesus can be proven to somebody else?  There should be historical evidence for Jesus and His supposed works, and scientific data for a deity, before we believe.

You keep bringing up the word "happy" like it proves that your beliefs are true.  I believe you're happy and I believe you're wrong about God and Jesus.  I know you're not a metaphysical naturalist, but you can start by accepting the current scientific data about the universe.  I don't know if you're a young earth creationist; forgive me if I assumed wrongly, but that's a good guess.

Oh, and the present scientific data shows that humans and the other animals don't need deities to be moral -- that's already been explained.

What did you think I wanted?  And why would I speak with Anonymouse?  I've already read through the first couple pages or so of the thread awhile ago; I decided to take a chance with the original post.  There was no way I was going to read the entire thread, or even any where near the entire thread, before I posted. 

Yeah, I figured some, if not all, of my points had already been addressed.  But I figured I'd try anyway.  I imagined there would have been some repetition after 60+ pages of debate.  I want something I can't obtain?  It doesn't sound like Fonzie is convincible! 

Why are there two Anonymouse's?  There's you, then there's A_Nony_Mouse.  Anyway... why do you want a troll and a theist badge?   Back to the thread.  I might as well give it a few stabs.  It looks like mostly scriptural debate lately, but I'll watch where it goes.  Another being-high-is-more-important-than-being-right case. 

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I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him.

What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"?
Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act).

Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies?

Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries.
What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility.

So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"?

An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up?
"He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right?
Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"?

Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance".

If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?)
Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again.
And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that.
Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"?

Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about.
Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining?
Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses"). It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive).
I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen.
Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"?
Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see.

Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"?

"Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not?
About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps") is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously).
I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?).

The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more?
"God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith?
Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors.

"To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge?
"Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle") of faith?
I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors.

Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect.
Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking.

The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you.

"The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake.

"you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more".
Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge?
I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms.

"Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives.

"Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you?
And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it.

"Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"?
Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity?

("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...)

"Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter?
"I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about?

"Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another?

"You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement).
"It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand.

"Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened.
"Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people".

"... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this."
I don't have any.

"when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours.
Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him.
Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that.
You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do.
Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible?

"You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right.

I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P
"Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all..
"My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved?

As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did).
In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined.

"whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)

Luca,

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and I got a sample - good.  
 

Luca,

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and cooking I got a sample - good.  
 

Luca,

I've just tried to make my answer clear to you.  You ask for more explanation.  I think you said not to worry about too much detail.  

But actually there is just One Answer - "believe in Jesus and live".  It pleases the fleshly side of men to trust in things like science, ritual, money, visible forms - but to "believe in Jesus" attacks the pride of men.  It involves a letting go of one thing and taking hold of the gospel with the grip of faith.  

You gave it a try, and stalled out and crashed.  Remember the three rules of sailing - "keep the nose down", "keep the nose down" and "keep the nose down".  Maybe you only applied the first rule then gave up; anyway, perseverance is needed to get beyond just "knowing enough to make yourself miserable".  Perseverance is needed in every valuable pursuit - why should I apologize that it takes a lot of sailing to become a sailor (even though you can learn the principles in a day).  

And what about playing a guitar?  Sure, you can learn 3 chords in an hour then get discouraged and give up like several here on the atheist forum who say they've given up faith in Jesus and all chime in honoring each other for such a wonderful decision though they don't have the slightest idea what they gave up!  

You never experienced walking by faith in Christ - you just submitted to some forms but you didn't put your whole heart, soul and mind in faith in Jesus and His Word?  So don't speak against what you never understood or experienced.  Now, if you did experience walking by faith, tasted the heavenly gift and then gave it up - the news is bad  (Hebrews 6.1-8).

Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus       search youtube

For "science to tell me how the world was created for one" do you mean our world as Earth or "our world" as "universe"?

My opinion about Ecclesiastes is an opinion, but do you think that your opinion is an opinion?

The 'weed' in "a garden with no weeds" is sin, right?
So what is your idea about "the devil screwed up the garden" (it was only a talking snake, apparently)? Was is what God wanted?

Not in faith = in sin, but what "faith" adds, beyond the simple word itself? What would change between no faith but obeying/submissing and obeying/submissing with faith?

Extrapolating from "what God has revealed" obviously leaded to many misunderstandings. In fact, how could one say to be able to extrapolate correctly? I mean, theorically you're right, but evidently in doing that you have to ignore millennia of theology. Pragmatically things are not so direct.

You're not a scholar on false religions, and neither am I

It happened that I liked things I thought I didn't want, but this is the classical problems: we're talking about emotions. Is what is right being right and so it must be done or are emotions a meter of judgment?
So I speak about "what are the the consequences that manifest"?

The 'perfection' of Jesus is another 'perfection' that must be... I mean, some attributes are said to be perfect of him, but saying 'perfect' in a so not specific way means that he was "perfectly perfect", so perfect in every way, but this doesn't even make sense... Or maybe I'm missing the point...
Would you tell me I'm wrong if I say that having I no evidence about Jesus I have to consider him only a character in the new testament and not a real person? Do you need faith for that?

Well, to say that I hope the metaphors you use are clear to yourself is the least... But were they crystal clear from the beginning? Or it took hours of reading, testing, what else, to see the meanings in them? Because if it's the second option, then you can't blame me for having a low opinion of metaphors...

Eve wanted to escape Adam's authority... after the fact. What are you saying?

I think I said that I "comprehend" the metaphor physical house/spiritual house. I only explained in what they are different, because they are different. The problem being: could you speak about the spiritual without delegating to metaphors?
Not only that: I always said that the problem with metaphors (and in general with religious people) is oversemplifying things: an example in this case is: if there's this roof problem in a hard uncomfortable spot and the responsible did not fix it, then why he did not act? You are assuming *a lot* of things, of conditions.

Why people hating Jesus would be the "chair"? Now, you should be clear of what you mean with "hate", hate as in *really* hating or just a "not adhering/abiding" (am I a "hater" by your standard?), but put that aside for a moment. Instead, by saying "chair" I think you meant the "hard facts" point from my posts... If that's correct, then hating X shows what, that X is right? Or maybe it's the reverse, X is assumed to be right, "so" it's hated?

About the "new heart", do you think that having "another faith" could "change your heart" too?

We have totally opposite views on metapors... and on anything else.
Jesus taught in parables... and it's obviously a bad thing because they could be so extreme in their interpretation that often they shape like water in a container.

Why "inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience" are "something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations"? They are intended as a manifestation of our biology. If our biology was different, they would be different.
Second: what property of the "inner spiritual house" is different from other things in the mind?

"Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor)." Very funny :| The heart *is* a metaphor in itself, so it's a metaphor of a metaphor... Why not a triple metaphor? Let's call the garden "a car"... Then we compare the car to the house, metaphor^4. Beyond every limits. We could even make a 'recursive metaphor' comparing then house to our "spiritual house". Think of all the possibilities.
Anyway it's the classical thing over and over: simplifying things. You remove 'the sins', then 'self control, faith, hope, love' grow. Well, what is sin? What is self control? What is faith? What is hope? What is love? I am not saying that I cannot totally understand this, but there are too much traditions and customaries and too little definitions/facts on which base every argument. It's like politics.

Again, you say "faith doesn't speak to me by feelings", but later your words show that what you mean is "faith is different than feelings". So I tell you another time: I never said faith is feelings, I only say that faith spekas by feelings. If not, what are the other manners by which faith makes itself present to you? Thankfully I have been sufficiently clear, this time.
In fact, it isn't specifically negative or positive feeling bad or good for faith, but it matters when those feelings are caused by faith, when they are directly related to it.
Another thing, about the thoughts "assessed with respect to the Word of God eccetera": would you say that these thought are based entirely on what's written in the bible, or do you think that a believer has something more that it's not in there?

"... and I guess you don't want me to repeat"
When it's not necessary, no. I understood that part of your life, so repeating feels like not answering (because I already know that what you would have just repeated).

"I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW" What insult?
Anyway the problem is I already know something that goes deeper than the bible does, and it is a big obstacle for accepting not only the bible, but every sacred text, every tradition, every philosophy (although some are interesting, like language philosophy).
In the end "you could be so sure and so wrong", yes, but at the moment it seems not, and obviously one has to show me where I'm wrong, if not well I take my knowledge with doubt, but in the meantime I apply it. There's no other way I ever heard of.

"I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus."
Yes, but you always did knew Jesus (or at least I think from as early as you remember), so how can you know what is being without?

"I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question."
Well you do remember the "wrong reasons", no? Asking one million dollars, asking asking asking. But then, isn't what is wrong defined in the bible as it is what is good? This is circular logic because it's like a tautology, it's like saying "it's wrong because it's wrong".

Suffering and trials are extremes that can change radically what we think, but to say "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD" is just (empty) words, if you can't demonstrate it. Sorry.

I 'miss an experience or lose an opportunity' by taking in account only physical factors? It's not my fault. I have not heard of any not physical factors that can act in our reality with causality, and so how can I build my life on that? If you are aware of one of them, one which has been investigated and is repeatable, then I sure would like to know.

How could you say we have different gods? If your god exists, then there is only one. I never found anything as "a god".

Job: keep in mind two things: first, the story says God spoke to him; second: the physical satisfactions ended *but* for a limited (although probably pretty long for him) time.

Please, "smoking kills" is not "knowledge". The "medical bills" was sort of a joke. Also I said that knowledge doesn't change directly your behavior, I only said it can tell you you're wrong. The behavior may not change because of other factors, usually the environment.
What do you mean for "what is falsely called knowledge"?

Can you show how we can't defeat this 'serious enemy' on any level?

Aren't you extending your past experience as a "fool" to other people undeservedly?

As a wife can't be a god (and the songs that claim a woman can fill every your needs are just songs made for money), every god people narrate of is not apparently acting in this world. One. But two, most important, while I know what you mean by "God supply our needs", I don't think it makes sense.

"Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you."
What?

The problems about Jesus that should be coming soon are obvious: it's almost two thousand years he was supposed to come, and he never came. I think it's safe to say that we will not see the coming, and I'm not saying this malignantly. You can look at the 'Millennialism' page on wikipedia, if you wish. Or look at the difference between the various confessions' parousia.

Excuse me, in what frame of time are you saying "I don't see the interpretation of the bible changing"?
Interpretation... Tell me what you think about homosexuality: "I was born homosexual, so God wanted me like this"?

"So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?" What?
" - actually trying to be wise as God" No, don't worry about that.

In the "other gods" paragraph I'm saying two things:
-that 'choice' doesn't seem to me the correct word, when one way is correct and the other is a big mistake which will be punished; I don't know even why there should be a choice;
-the 'choice' about following a god/religion seems random in the sense that people all around the world don't adhere to christianity by merely showing it to them; instead, they follow the religion which is tied to the place, to the customs of the place.

What the word 'free' in "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed" means?

"As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you."
Haha, ok, but it remains a catchphrase. Until you show me some proof that "those of faith are hated". Because I could say that muslims, being probably the most hated by the world right now, are the ones with the highest faith.
Always regarding this matter, I have not said "be like Jesus, loved by some and hated by others", I said "not loved" full stop. Not being loved. By anyone. In that situation, do you think you could live a decent life?

I don't think I have to fear Revelation.

Sure, the italian cuisine is usually good, although I am not of "big mouth". Apart from that, Italy has many many problems. Instead, I dont't know what this thing with english/american people writing I with a capital i. In italian there isn't this habit. It makes appear english people a bit egocentric, for me.

...In the pastor’s chamber It blathered for Its feast, 
 They had stabbed it with their steely dans but just could not starve the Beast...

Filo Soft emerged from the fringe to take his own stab, heedless of the Last Universal Common Ancestor’s warnings. Brazenly he asked why ought he favour discretion and seek guidance from the venerable Mouse, yet refused to consult the annals where the answers to his questions lay.   

L.U.C.A. for its part kept shoveling copious amounts of simple carbs into the Troll's gaping maw.  This was enough to keep Its menopausal motor croaking along, with only the occasional need for a shot of protein, as any visitor was more than happy to provide.

Little did they realize that any decent open-source trollgarithm could provide the same result, with far greater lithium efficiency:

Those who would deny the bible as the word of God are living a cobbled together fiction.

I will make the cut for Heaven by one vote -- from Jesus.

God said "it is finished". Truth is not arrogance.

Jesus is the only evidence anyone needs, and the Cross is the evidence that supports it.

Only nothing is invisible and intangible. But god is everything, and you can't dismiss god.

You believe in the magic of science, but I choose god's default judgment.

I responded to your PM asking me to delete you.  I asked why in the PM... I assume this is your reason?

This isn't a good reason.  But if you must, you are free to leave.  We'll have memories of you, but we wont misrepesent you as a theist or troll.  You were/are a valuable respected member of this community.