Unless you like them or they're "elected"?

Not really. The only use philosophy can be is in formulating the concepts.

For instance you throw around these terms like 'sacrifice and voluntary'. The concepts are never really defined. If one analyzes situations, you can see that sacrifice probably doesn't exist especially among theists. Science tells us we have no real free will to do anything 'voluntarily'.

I call 'growing up' learning to play the game of survival in the adult world. We learn to behave as adults because if we don't, we don't get what we want. It's still a game of complete self-centeredness. Nature has given us empathogens so we feel good caring about others. But this is only for our own survival.

Can you give an example of when you or anyone actually did any real sacrifice? All this so called sacrifice is like this '72 virgins' sacrifice. It is giving up something in the present to get a greater reward later.

If our ancestors had any other imperative than survival and passing on DNA, they would have lost out in evolution and we wouldn't be here to argue about this. Nature's only imperative is our survival and that of offspring. And that is all we really sacrifice for.

But this European and American culture of material satisfaction is being bred out of existence by low birth rates. Same thing is Israel, the Palestinians have a much higher birth rate. So the culture with the higher birth rate is always going to win out, right? So with no mandated controls on family size, we're always going to have a lot of population pressure.

I think science tells us that we already are all addicts. We have chemical bodies. Everything we do is with the expectation of feeling better.

The reason there is so much misery is that our biological imperatives come into conflict with others'. We're all mainly in competition with the rest of humanity so there is little opportunity to cooperate for our common good.

But if you do the math and if women keep having 12 babies, there are no resources available to take of all these. So the only option is Palestinians live out lives of want and blame everything on the Jews. So the problem will never get solved until they all blow each other up.

What do you mean? These people are willingly going along with treatment to feel better.

And if science keeps telling us that we're all ego-centric hedonists without freewill to be moral? There has to be a biological advantage to moral advancement right?

Why do you support murderers and thieves who run a military tyranny over millions of others? It is an elementary principle of law that all actions in furtherance of a crime are also crimes.

The occupation is criminal. Jews who kill to maintain the occupation cannot claim self defense. They are murderers. But you know that.

Keep in mind I am invoking the formulation desired by the government of Israel and using jewish and israeli interchangeably. Feel free to mentally add "and democratic" after jewish in expressions like jewish dictatorship. There is no significant jewish objection to the desired israeli formulation so please don't complain to me.

Why are you defending a jewish military tranny that has enslaved millions of Palestnians? Why are you defending murderers and thieves? Do you have no self-respect?

I thought the grievous fault of decades of tyrannical jewish rule over millions for the purpose of stealing their land, their property and means of livelihood requires hatred from right-thinking people.

Are you suggesting such things should be loved for their actions?

Besides. We have been over all this before. Are you hoping to do better the second time around?

No rational person should like tyrants. It just encourages others. Up until the egyptian protests started showing a chance of success the US always praised egyptian democracy. If the US can turn a blind eye to Egypt no wonder it can turn a blind eye to Israel for even even though its crimes are greater.

Not necessarily. Not all jews support Israel. And not all jews in Palestine are military or occupiers. All Israeli's, maybe, but even though that is significantly more likely, it still isn't certain.

And any Palestinian who fires a rocket into Israel, or incites a suicide bomber, or assassinates or attempts to assassinate anyone is also a war criminal. Swords cut both ways.

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OK Nony, why do you keep asking for proof that they are religious fruitcakes? I would think that to be terribly obvious. Since it is clearly not to you, I will most condescendingly provide from wikipedia:

If the UN is a promoter of world peace, why should any country be recognized that organizes and names itself on the basis of a particular race/religion, including Isreal? If you want peace in the middle east this is what would have to happen:

Have a single state without laws or a name favoring one group or religion.

Have equal rights.

Get rid of land ownership, this would probably mean the end of religion since everyone's sky daddy all 'gives' them all the land, and often tells them to commit genocide against the infidels and unbelievers.

Mandatory birth and immigration controls to limit population pressures.

If people don't want to agree to these, I guess they really don't want peace that much.

All Jews who support Israel are war criminals. The first squatters settled in Hebron 44 years ago in October. That is a war crime. They are still in Hebron and supported by Israel along with a half million other criminal squatters. 44 years is sufficient to establish it as the criminal policy of Israel. Anyone who supports Israel is supporting multiple war crimes and a criminal nation. Anyone who supports Israel supports a criminal nation. No different from supporting Nazi Germany, period.

If you know of any who object please provide their names. The back of an envelop should be sufficient space.

EVERYONE knows whatever the popularity of a truism there are always a few dissenters. It is never required to acknowledge those few when using the word all. It is not required even if the subject is Jewish criminals. I do not accept demands for special treatment. Keep this in mind next time you talk about believers or southerners. Even I know all rednecks are not as I paint them. There are a few not so far around the bend as the vast majority. Same for Jews. We KNOW that. There is no need for qualification.

You are an atheist, not a Jew. Why your interest in members of a religious group? Why are you defending members of a religion? Particularly such primitive religion?

I have previously acknowledged for the record the existence of groups such as Naturei Karta which are considered fringe groups by mainstream Jews who are against the Israel. If you can name a few others which are of significant size and which are not considered fringe groups please let me know. As I said I have looked for them and not found them. If you know of them please post their names and URLs.

By international law the nation which conducts an unlawful occupation is a lawful target in any manner including saturation bombing and nuking as in WWII. Do not complain to me. I did not force Israel to sign Geneva IV which makes it liable to being such a target without recourse save whining.

Any and all forms of resistance to occupation is always lawful unless the occupation is in compliance with Hague V and Geneva IV. Israel has acknowledged Geneva IV applies. Geneva IV requires administration to be for the benefit of the occupied people save in matters of military necessity. If you are not familiar with the military do not stick your foot in it and claim the squattertowns are a military necessity. They are all war crimes.

Any and all attacks on Israel are justified in international law because of Israel's war crimes.

Again, you are not a Jew. You are an atheist. Why the interest in Jews? Would you defend Roman Catholics in the same manner? Anglicans? What was your position regarding the IRA? Were you defending the Irish or the British? Why is your interest only in the followers of Judaism?

You have regularly jumped in defending a pissant country founded upon theft and murder and defending the perps. Why? I have answered your questions. Please tell my why you do it.

Pfft. Wikipedia was unreliable.... 10 years ago. Get with the times man. You can look at edit histories and sourcesto make sure the information is accurate. And it rarely isn't accurate these days. Wikipedia can no longer be easily and significantly vandalised for a significant amount of time. There are more people keeping it viable then there are vandals.

I bet you have a framed photograph of Hitler next to your bed and you jerk off to WWII holocaust documentaries.  Go find some fucking muslim forum where they will cheer you on.

You want to know something about Palestine?  I'll tell you about these sick fucks.

They have their own TV channel you know.  You know what these sick, disgusting excuses for humanity do on their fucking channel?

They bring 5 year old kids on for an interview.  You know why they selected these kids?

Because their mommy blew herself up on a bus in Israel and killed 6 jews.

So the interviewer, a fucking muslim palestinian fucktard, asks them how many jews their mommy killed.

And the fucking kids know the answer.  And he beams at them and tells them how fucking heroic their mommy was.  Some 45 year old jew sitting there going to the fucking store or something to get milk, or to buy diapers for their grandchild, or to go visit their dying parents gets blown the fuck up for no other reason than they allow some stupid, sick fucking Muslims to roam around their fucking country.

They indoctrinate their kids from birth to think Jews are transformed pigs or apes.  Dehumanize them in their children's minds from fucking birth.  So they will be good little suicide bombers.  They send their women and children to fucking blow themselves up to kill some random jewish person for fucking giggles.

And then they run around and dance, and chant God is great, and fire their fucking AKs into the air like a bunch of fucking animals.

And don't come telling me about some historic shit the Jews did that you don't agree with.

Because you are using it to justify the killing of innocent random people.

No people is perfect.  The jews certainly aren't.  But us Americans, don't even get me started.  We invaded this land and wiped out the Native Americans.  We herded them onto the crappiest pieces of land we could find, preventing them from hunting and providing for themselves.  Then fed them rotting meat and when they snuck off the reservation to find something for their families to eat we'd call it an uprising and kill them and their families.

Yet for some reason the Native Americans aren't blowing themselves up on buses in St Louis to kill some white americans.

Why the fuck is that?

Native Americans aren't teaching their children to hate white Americans from birth.

We fucked these people over horribly.

No rockets are flying out of fucking reservations to kill and terrorize white Americans.  They don't have any interviews with 5 year old kids talking about how wonderful their mommy was because she killed some crackers that were sitting on a bus minding their own business.

What's up with that?

Native Americans are a DAMN better people than the stinking Palestinians.

Most natives who died during colonisation died from plagues and social issues that people were oblivious to. Israel is anything BUT oblivious as to their constant hammering of Palestinian civilians with tanks, bombs, planes, and a fucking army.

Your attitude in your signature is just as stupid as the religious "sins of the father". I today am not responsible for slavery nor was I responsable for the wrongful land grab European Christians did in killing off Native Americans. But you have to be out of your mind to think I should give a damned thing to blacks or Native Americans, other than "Humans shouldn't do that in the future".

NOW what you should do, instead of dwelling on the past over things that will never be resolved through violence, is to deal with the here and now.

BOTH sides need to stop pointing fingers and stop this stupid fight over FUCKING DESERT!

The current land grab DID start after WW2 wrongfully by Jews after the world had RIGHTFUL sympathy of 6 million being slaughtered.

But what is done is done and you are NOT going to get Jews to go anywhere. And Jews are not going to get Muslims to go anywhere. So rather than get into violent pissing contests BOTH sides need to clean their own houses. NEITHER side is doing that.

Your finger pointing is a childish and deadly as Israel's childish and deadly playground mentality. And I am sick of both sides.

Again, the only way I will support Palestine collectively is if it becomes secular and embraces pluralism, which I have not seen a damned lick of hit of, other than SOME and far too few in Palestine. Start working on that first then you will get my sympathy.

Living on the other side of the planet and still defending murderers and thieves running a ruthless dictatorship. Why?

As for constantly, this subject was ll over the evening news on four networks on 19 and 20 Sept and I presume the coverage will continue as it is about the only item of news of interest from the UN these days. Why not be thankful for the heads up and background you have over people who have only the TV news?

For evil to triumph it is only necessary that good men remain silent. Evil has triumphed in the middle east for too long. All other dictatorships are crumbling. There is no reason the ruthless jewish dictatorship should not crumble also.

From a redneck state that cheers the execution of coloreds your attitude is hardly surprising.

But that is hardly atheist of you. Do you have a hierarchy of religonists you hate or do you just single out Muslims who never harmed you personally? If you expand that beyond personal harm you can only invoke a plethora of logical fallacies and non-sequeturs but don't let me stop you.

It is odd to find a person admitting their sole reason for objecting to exposing jewish war crimes is that you are motivated by hate. That is not a pretty admission. Nor does it make sense that you could have developed such an emotion without suffering personal injury.

Want to talk about it?

Those are the same customs followed by real Jews, those called Orthodox, the majority of the Jews in the world. How does this add up to harm to you? People cannot have their own customs and live their own lives the way they want? The way CHRISTIANS in the West did for most of their history?

I assume your emotions are based upon ignorance. Ignorance is the most common source of irrational hatred.

Stop visiting.

Even when they (jewish men) beat (jewish) women for refusing to ride in the back of the bus? When they stone women for praying in public? For not wearing a wig and flesh colored stockings under normal stockings? For refusing to properly educate their children?

They are fantastic people for enslaving millions of people?

But let me guess, Birthright Tour. Correct? Do you really think they showed you the reality?

Now you are talking like Likud or worse -- yes, there is worse.

That I post the truth contrary to your birthright tour and it bothers you is a good thing. It might get you to your irrational hatred of real semitic people.

If you had been to Germany and Russia in th '30s I would expect glowing reports of those glorious social experiments. In fact if you had been in both countries in 1940 you would certainly have praised the dictatorships they each established in Poland. After all, they were dictators. They were your kind of people, ruthless dictators, tyrants.

But of course if you can characterize ALL of the people you hate by a few of the most backward your hatred is vindicated -- not that you really give a damn but it makes narrow-minded bigots feel better. Ten years ago most of the components in PCs were made in a Muslim country, Indonesia. May still be. I haven't done an inventory lately. The majority of Muslims do not live in the middle east. None in the middle east marry off 10 year olds.

It is the kind of knowledge I expect to be missing in those motivated by hatred.

I have a copy of the Koran. Please quote in context AND give the reference to that instruction or admit you made it up. Your hatred warps your mind.

I lived under the credible threat of that from Russia most of my life. I have nothing against Russians.

Do you really think I give a shit about anything a raving ignorant bigot says? You are a loony.

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The concern is not that there might be dual loyalties. The concern is that
there might not be.
	-- The Iron Webmaster, 4340
 http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3
Tue Sep 20 23:43:55 EDT 2011

Jews did not like "blame the victim" -- only when it applies to them.

Irrelevant and wrong at the same time.
Not by any strech do all jews support the actions of Israel.
All the countries I name have partaken in EXACTLY the same shit Israel does, just not necessarily as often.
So shut your fool mouth and start gaining some perspective. If all of Israel can be condemned, then so can everyone in every democratic society.
Talk to me about logic when you learn the basics.

There are problems with almost any kind of parallel except the Hollywood version. Cortez came to rule the Aztecs in accordance with Aztec law, he married Moctezuma's widow. And the killing off was within Aztec custom.

The north American conflict is the one Hollywood loves. Fact is the natives enthusiastically took sides in the original French and English conflicts. The Iroquois negotiated peace and are doing quite well today.

Many of the other tribes had a custom of raiding each other, ancient hatreds like Europe at the time. When Europeans were a target they handled it in European fashion not in coup counting. They took after the attacking tribe with the help of other Indian tribes.

That pattern repeated in every Indian war. The army always had Indians helping them in their wars.

And as for taking sides the name escapes me at the moment but one of them officially sided with the South against the North in the Civil War. The North treated them accordingly.

Like it or not the conflict was between a civilization and a hunter/gatherer society save for the Iroquuois who made out well. Even without the conflict the hunter/gatherers would have collapsed. The same thing happened in the Old World although most of the clear examples are pre-history.

And of course diseases did take most of them, around 70-90% per generation while Europeans were losing only 30-40% per generation from the same diseases. Even without resupply of bodies from Europe the outcome was inevitable. And the much vaunted lack of immunity was not a one way street, they merely had less immunity than the Europeans. It was not all v none as the usual presentation has it.

Grow up. Not even high school students are permitted to use a reference like that. You have to go to the references to find what is required to show their political leaders have said the same braindead religious things as Netanyahu.

Excuse me. I do not care where you go to find it. But you have to post the quotes not a claim that the quotes exist.

If you do not have the evidence stop trying to substitute material that would be rejected in a high school paper as a response. I assume you completed high and know this. Am I in error?

Or was it a Texas high school?

As I am certain you remember but would like to forget I have already addressed this subject. The standard of justice and property restoration for Palestinians is exactly the same as Jews demand for themselves as a consequence of WWII. I did not invent this standard of justice. Jews did. I do not see Jews saying today's Germans and Poles and Hungarians and Romanians and Swiss are not responsible for the sins of their fathers. I see exactly the opposite.

I have said before and to refresh your memory, like it or not, the standard of justice for Palestinians is the same as Jews demand for themselves.

Lets not dwell on the past. Lets take it from right now as though there were no past. END THE DICTATORSHIP NOW! Send the foreigners back to Israel where they came from. No past? You got it.

I find it incomprensible that otherwise rational people will go through so many rationalizations while hoping no on notices the conclusion is always "Jews can continue their tyranny over millions of Palestinians." All the arguments have that as a conclusion. Even the fake arguments that lead to, "We must end our kind, genorous, benevolent rule of the primitives real soon" are transparent as the "real soon" is always in the geological sense.

You defenders of tyranny are always trying to get the discussion away from the tyranny and onto wiping Israel off the map as Jews wiped Palestine off the map.

The oldest of these three threads "Palestine under Jewish Tyranny" has been going on for two weeks. It has 78 replies. The only posts which continue to address the tyranny are mine. ALL the rest want to talk about something else -- anything but the dictatorship.

The reason it is not addressed is that it is indefensible. I cannot find anything but a religious reason for refusing the defend the tryanny but attacking my posts against the tyranny. You folks try to get attention away from the tyranny onto unrelated issues.

Why not break the mold and condemn the tyranny without justifying it? Israel has said it squattertowns are bound by Geneva IV so why do you not agree they are war crimes?

Or if you think you can justify the squattertowns as a military necessity please do so. I am interested in seeing someone give it a go.

Grow a brain. High school students ARE allowed to use wikipedia. When I was first in HS it didn't exist. But when I went back to finish it did exist and was an acceptable reference. But feel free to keep talking out your ass, making a complete fool of yourself as always. I bet you're in Kansas. Only a very few places can produce someone as stupid as yourself, and Kansas tops the list.

The usual suspects are in an uproar over Palestine going to the UN this month for recognition as a sovereign state.

The currently popular whine is that it will not result in peace. But no one said that was the objective. The purpose is for the world to recognize the Palestinians live under the jewish (and democratic) tyranny of a military dictatorship. With recognition of this tyranny the world will have to agree the jewish (and democratic) dictatorship has to end so that peace will become possible.

Peace is always a Palestinian option as international law, particularly the 4th Geneva convention, approves indiscriminate violence against the occupying country as was the norm during WWII. Peace comes only when Palestinians decline to excercise their legal right to attack the occupying country.

The military governor of the West Bank is not materially different from General Heydrich and his lawful assassination for the same reason as Heydrich would be cheered by most of the world. Similarly "Lets kill Hitler" and "Lets kill Netanyahu" have the same legitimacy for the same reasons.

But lets be practical here as occupied Palestine will keep the peace as it is more profitable. Simply it will pass laws taxing all Israeli assets and all the Israelis in the occupied territories. It will also charge for the stolen water and tax profits from it. Israel will refuse to pay. Israel can only object to the taxes in the courts of Palestine as is customary in all countries. Israel will refuse to do that.

Then Palestine will file suit in the courts of the countries which have recognized it to sieze Israeli assets on those countries. As is the custom, as Israel did not challenge the taxes in the courts of Palestine, the courts of the other countries accept the debt and deal only with property siezures.

But wait, there is more. The laws of Palestine regarding theft and murder apply to all the IDF and the squatters. As the occupation is illegal Palestinian criminal laws apply. Palestine issues internation arrest warrants for them. They are arrested when they leave Israel. Of course Israel will not permit them to be transported into Palestine for trial so they languish in foreign jails until hell freezes over.

Similarly the leaders of organized criminal activity are liable for the crimes of their surbordinates. The entire chain of command up from one accused murderer to the Prime Minister are also subject to international arrest warrants with the same "rot in jail" consequences.

And of course the greatest war crime of them all, the criminal occupation, goes to the world court.

Stay tuned. It is going to be fun.

Myself I would like to see it adjudicated as to the responsibility of the voters in a democracy for the actions of their government. Seems to me they are absolutely responible for the government. It is difficult to conceive no one being responsible for the government of a country.

Man, I have to have that pic. One of the greatest episodes in all of Star Trek.

There are FOUR lights!

Thanks man.
Now I have to watch it again. lol.