The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel
Offline For those who read my recommendations of The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz this is old news. For those who have better things to do with their time, such as forming opinion absent knowledge of the subject, the last week has become an admission of the obvious.
The one thing that was the unmentionable 800 lb gorilla in the room for months started being mentioned as an aside about a week ago by both the US and Israel. On Thursday in Israel the PM's Office said that when he spoke to the UN Netanyahu would address both the desire for peaceful negotiations and the 800 lb gorilla.
The gorilla is the fact that a state of Palestine can and presumably will take Israel before the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for war crimes related to the occupation. Elvis has entered the building! Israelis have no defense. They are guilty as charged.
The gorilla is in the open. Izziehuggers take to the hills. Israel has routed your defense of Israel.
www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-will-agree-to-upgrade-of-palestinian-status-not-statehood-1.384716
Netanyahu told his interlocutors that granting the PA the status of a state would allow the Palestinians to go to the International Criminal Court in The Hague over issues like settlement construction. "But as long as it is less than a state, I'm ready to talk about it," a source familiar with the conversation quoted him as saying.
It is an admission of war crimes plain and simple.
Please folks, stop telling me I do not know what is going on but you do. Anyone who follows events in Israel would never have questioned Israel's war crimes.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
- Login to post comments
In all the years you have been here I don't recall you actually giving an answer to these questions.
Why do you personally care about this subject to the extent you do with such nasty vicious language?
Why did you not take up the issues of genocide in regards to Sudan, Rhodesia, Somalia, Myanmar, Iran, and now even Syria? If you did, I don't recall seeing it here on RRS.
Why the West Bank Palestinians and the Gaza Palestinians?
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
In fairness I've never seen anybody on this site - or anywhere else for that matter - even suggest that any of those other things are in some way defensible.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
There are some that defend the Somalian pirates on here I have encountered.
People have generally not taken up Darfur or Sudan as an issue which is and has been far worse than Palestine.
I just do not get his obsession and hostility towards Jews. He has to have a personal reason for the belligerent and antagonistic attitude he expresses.
Really, I don't get Nony's attitude. Watcher asked a fair question to which Nony did not respond. Granted, Watcher has his own bias, against Muslims which is understandable given 9-11. There is some motivation Nony has that drives him to the research, flaming remarks and his position. I don't recall seeing him ever give it here. Nony as I recall lives in my state, Florida and is involved or was involved in military weapons for the Navy or something like that. Maybe the Israelis took a contract away from his company or something like that.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Well you said "genocide" not piracy. I agree with your characterization though of including Gaza and the West Bank with a list of the worst humanitarian crises and atrocities and when it's universally denounced and halted with whatever necessary force it will be as pointless to discuss as the others.
EDIT: I don't know what his reasons are because I don't know him but even if he has personal reasons it's totally irrelevant. He could be Hitler's ghost it doesn't change any of the facts.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Somalia has both genocide and piracy among other things going on. What they don't have is anything anyone really wants. So the reaction has been to let the AU and mostly Ethiopia deal with it. I imagine if you look at the annual death rates for Palestine and Somalia from violence Somaila is far ahead in the numbers of dead.
.........time passes while I check this out . . . .
A fast look showed around 1000 plus dead in violence this year in Somalia while there were 76 total Palestinians killed through August. Then of course there is the famine that has half the population of Somalia at risk, over 1.8 million people. Since 1991 in Somalia well over 50,000 killed in violence and 300,000 dead from starvation. While in Palestine, since 2000 there have been 6430 Palestinians killed through Oct 2010 and 1084 Israelis. The total dead I found in a list from 1948 to 2009 is shown as 14,500 from all sides.
Perhaps Somalia is a far worse case of genocide.
What I don't get about Israel and the West bank and Gaza is why they don't just cut them loose.
The West Bank was part of Jordan prior to the '67 war. Fatah many times tried to kill King Hussein and overthrow the government of Jordan. Rightfully the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Perhaps they are glad to be rid of it and Fatah.
Gaza was captured from Egypt, you think they'd want it back as well. Perhaps with a group such as Hamas running it they too aren't interested in it.
Anyway, all the West Bank and Gaza do for Israel is to cause them trouble. Apparently they want hostilities to cease before they will give them their freedom, something neither Jordan nor Egypt seemed to consider when they ruled it. Regardless, this is a catch 22. They want freedom so the incentive is to fight for it. Israel wants them to chill but they don't.
Give it to them already!
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }
Well, if you want to go into Somalia, after the government collapsed, Italy and France decided that their fisheries would be a great place to dump nuclear waste. So now their fisheries are mostly dead. Then when the big tsunami happened a few years back, it pushed a great deal of the stuff up on shore. Now the beaches are radioactive.
Would this be a cause to become anti French/Italian?
Nony, Do you have a strong negative opinion on this matter or is your hate speech reserved for Jews?
=
To me that seems uncontroversial - I'll take your word for it - but still irrelevant. The people in Somalia you're talking about aren't being killed by piracy. They're being killed by insurgent groups fighting the Somalian government and by the Somalian government. If the point you're trying to make is that one should begin arguing with the supporters of Somalian genocide and then move on to lesser and lesser offenses until they get to Israel then I have to restate what I said originally. I don't see anyone defending those other things at all. Who among the posters here do you think is defending Somalian militias shelling civilians?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
It is difficult to imagine any but a fervid izziehugger would try to equate the failure to advocate for as being against. I find it difficult to imagine it because I have read so many times the identification of those who fail to advocate for Israel as self-hating Jews. Refer to my post. I said I was expecting more than a few self-hating Jews.
Do you expect me to believe you have been in personal contact with thousands of people of any kind much less just Jews?
But again, failure to advocate for is not what was requested. That you suggest the subject of Israel was the subject of those "thousands" of personal contacts you are telling me thousands minus 3 or 4 advocated for Israel which makes my case. It is so rare as to be legitimately negligable.
If you are not claiming Israel was the subject of these personal contacts then you are attempting to compare apples and oranges and need to a course in logic. And if you do not need a course in logic then this is a deliberate attempt to mislead which is worse than ignorance of logic.
Are you now parsing the word see? If you are not are you pleading ignorance? If you are pleading ignorance why are you disagreeing with me? AIPAC, AJC, ADL, B'nai B'rith, JTA, AZO, WZO, CSIS (France), Board of Deputies (Britain) are just those I can recall having read defending the Jewish dictatorship in just the last week or so. Not following the subject is ignorance and failure to do so means you should not be disagreeing with me but learning from me. Jewish organizations in Canada, Germany, Australia and New Zealand have also chimed in defending deprivation of human rights.
I have never said all jewish tyrants are the same. Sharon was different from Perez was different from Barak as tyrants go.
Factually I spend about a half hour a day reading Israeli newspapers and sources they reference on this subject. It is you who have demonstrated ignorance of what is known to all Israelis.
You did it because you knew you could get away with violating the rules regarding civil exchange. You did it because you have completely failed to demonstrate any error or bigotry on my part. You did it out of frustration at your discovery there are no facts which support your support of jewish tyranny over millions of Palestinians.
At least be honest with yourself as to your reasons.
And you have failed to produce a single example of any misrepresentation whatsoever. It must be terribly frustrating for you.
I have not noticed any logic on your part to question.
Your total failure to produce evidence contrary to a single point I have made should shortly lead you to declare you have but refuse to recite what it was. It is the usual next step in frustration after shouting through the keyboard.
Some day you might be able to face this tyranny and see it for what it is.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
1: Bigotry gets you nowhere. In fact, all of them were disgusted at Israeli policy. Israel /= all jews. Get it through your thick skull.
2: You must live a sheltered life (explains a few things).
I haven't. Get out more.
Not supporting = not supporting, not that I expect you to understand basic logic, you've proven you can't.
3: Proving my points = owned. And again proving your ignorance of democracy. And logic. And English. Look up "lobbiest" kid, then get back to me.
4: Laughable.
5: I don't like repeating myself, so I direct you to my previous post as to my real reasons. But you can keep acting like a 4 year old if you must.
6: Your lies and self deceptions are becoming boring.
7: You haven't seen it because you don't know anything about logic.
It's like talking to a theist.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
It is people like you who call those who take a stand against war criminals bigots who are defending tyranny. Only a bigot would mention crimes against humanity under the jewish dictatorship. You are working to make bigots look good.
Yet all defend the tyrants. That is hardly disgust. It is like saying people who praised and defended Gov. Wallace were silently disgusted with his segregation policies. Note the SILENTLY. Like you they all avoid addressing the aggravated war crimes as though they had not been going on for 44 years with no end in sight.
Did you or did you not talk about support of Israel with all of thousands of contacts you imagine you had?
Add J Street to the supporters of the jewish dictatorship.
Mere assertion off the subject of jewish tyranny over non-Jews is a fact you have never addressed.
Again, name calling.
Stop reading.
Mere assertion is not logic.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The above is a correct title. The subject is always Jewish tyranny. I have not raised the issue of zionism nor its religious foundation yet that appears to be the only thing those who remember their Birthright tours can talk about.
Question to the Board of Deputies, will you start a separate thread on the politics of Zionism? Or needs there be a thread in which only jewish tyranny is discussed separate from Zionism?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
That was not the point in my question to Nony. I'm aware of what is going on in Somalia, done that debate already. My point was if people are concerned about genocide and humanitarian issues, there are far worse things that have been going on for years in other places that are not being addressed.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I use the same language as is used in similar circumstances. A factual description using words whose meanings fit the events is simply an writing skill expected by the 8th grade in the US. No one has presented evidence of factual errors in my statements.
I am an American. My country did no support the countries you name in the activities which are reprehensible and damnable. My country did in fact condemn those things and the worst criticism is lack of substantive actions in some cases most of which I understand in the geopolitical sense. If you had been around in the 80s on the early BBSs and such you would have seen exactly the same words and worse used to describe every communist ruled country. Your outh is something that cannot be overcome.
My country does in fact support the tyranny over millions of Palestinians. It is my country, my politics, my position. My country claims special relationship and to be an (informal) ally of Israel. My country provide 3% of the "federal" budget of this country as charity under a different name. My country protects this country in a manner which can only be described as psychophantic.
From years of following the matter, since before the Israeli murder of 34 Americans on the USS Liberty in fact, I have identified the problem as the lack of clarity, the semantics. Identical actions deserve identical descriptions. Were I to take after Israel proper I would talk about segregation and its Jim Crow laws. I would put it in the terms which apply to similar things in the American ken.
Americans are simply unaware of what they are supporting because the facts are described in different words or avoided entirely.
The difficulty in this discussion is that in today's world there is nothing comparable to the jewish dictatorship in the West Bank. The world has advanced enough that there are only historical parallels for the actions of Jews in the West Bank. Even communist rule, as bad as it was, is not a parallel as all citizens were at least equal, equally oppressed was the issue.
One literally has to go back to occupied Poland and France to find the most recent historical parallels. When both Hitler and Netanyahu (first term) say their countries must have "room to live in the east" aka "Lebensraum nach Osten" Israel begs for the comparison. When it comes to the factual parallels one can simply look at Geneva IV.
The 4th Geneva convention was created to specifically addressed the German WWII technical violations of Hague V but which were not specifically prohibited. One can almost, repeat almost, use Geneva IV as a checklist of Israeli crimes. It is so complete one might suggest the Jews used it as a guideline.
Take for example the criminals who have chosen to live in occupied territory which is a war crime both prohibited by Geneva IV and for which people were hanged at Nuremberg. They are called settlers instead of squatters. They are at worst called misguided instead of criminals. Their devotion to the Torah is often praised which is no different from praising devotion to the Master Race.
So I am devoting the effort to describing the same actions in the same words regardless of the perp.
If I were interested in Israel proper I would point out that just about everything involved in home buying in Israel is criminal in the US from construction permits 96% for Jews to admissions committees to keep out non-jews. Think Jim Crow nation.
So as an American you can see I am a bit pissed off when America's political leaders talk about the values we share with Israel. I am sorry. We gave up segregation two generations ago. We do not share Israel's values. We in fact criminalize Israel's values.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Please be specific in your response.
Are you telling me that a reference which in no way addresses the issue at hand is acceptable to support the issue?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
That is true. I have no idea what you have read so let me invent an example.
The Hutus appear to have been slaughtering the Tutsis. In this case the Jews have been operating a dictatorship over the Palestinians depriving them of all civil and human rights.
Have you ever read a response to the slaughter talking about what great people the Hutus are while completely ignoring the slaughter? I have never heard such a thing.
I have read right here responses saying what a great people the Israelis are without a single mention of their tyrannical rule.
Have you ever read anyone called a bigot for focussing on the slaughter of the Tutsis? I have been called a bigot for focussing on the jewish dictatorship.
Have you ever read the person who condemns the slaughter of being a Tutsi lover? I have been accused of being a Muslim lover for objecting to the criminal occupation.
Have you ever heard, if the Hutus didn't slaughter them someone else would to excuse the Hutus? I have heard if they were not under a jewish dictatorship they would be under a muslim dictatorship.
All of those alternatives I have read from participants here defending jewish tyranny.
Whatever you have read you can certainly come up with your own parallels to the above.
On top of that all the present day examples are of what people do to their fellow countrymen, fellow citizens. When it comes to Israel it is about what it does to those who are not citizens, not fellow countrymen, rather to others whom it hates and despises for daring to resist.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Worse perhaps but intrinsically different. Things done within a country are the responsibility of the citizens of that country. What a country like Israel does to those who are not its citizens and who have no civil rights is entirely different. They do not have a vote. They have no status whatsoever. What are they supposed to do? Roll over and begged to be raped again?
I do not understand how you think you can justify, excuse, and in fact praise the jewish tyranny by saying objection to its crimes and atrocities are because of hostilities towards Jews.
Like I said a long time ago, if Jews had declared their Israel in New York City Americans would have killed them all. Palestinians are doing what Americans would have done under the same circumstances. Reminding the world that the UN said Jews could have NYC would not sway American opinion.
And if by some chance it had succeeded Americans would still be trying to kill them off and drive them into the sea and wipe their Israel off the map and restore New York City as it was.
Why is it so hard to see Palestinians have exactly the same rights as Americans would have in the same circumstances?
Please repeat the question you think was fair.
So you are saying because of the mass murderer Goldstone in Hebron Palestinians hatred of Jews is as understandable as Watcher's hatred of Muslims. Do you reallyl want to stick with that? even though he never had the balls to mention 9/11 knowing how spurious that is?
Maybe the Israelis murdered 34 Americans on the USS Liberty ... That is not a maybe but a fact. And not one person in any Navy in the world accepts it could have been an accident. And every time the Israeli fart it calls a navy announces joint exercises with the US Navy the newspapers rush to assure the country that it will not involve live fire. They all know there will be reciprocal lethal accident if there were live fire.
That said, calling a spade a spade may be novel when it comes to Israel but the truth cannot be hate. Granted people can hate the truth. Not one refutation of a single fact I have recited has been posted. Got one?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The word genocide was coined in 1944 without a legal definition. It was given a legal definition in 1947 with the ratification of CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT OF THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE.
The legal defintion is this.
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
religious groups, as such:
a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
You recite nothing which satisfies the ONLY legal definition of genocide. For completeness.
Article III
The following acts shall be punishable:
a. Genocide;
b. Conspiracy to commit genocide;
c. Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
d. Attempt to commit genocide;
e. Complicity in genocide.
Attempted genocide, d., is not genocide. If Jews had been genocided there would not be any. It was only an attempt.
Because they are stealing land and looking for a pretext to expel the Palestinians. Think profit.
What you are reciting is the refusal of Palestinians to accept Jordanian rule. Palestinians first appear in history in the 5th c. BC, read Herodotus, some four centuries before the Jews appear in history in a fictional history. Jordan only appears in history after WWI.
If the million refugees expelled by Israel could go home and reclaim their private property, the half million left in Gaza would make it desirable real estate.
And Jerusalem.
That would require Israel to give up one third of its water supply which is STEALS from the West Bank knowing full well the exploitation of natural resources from an occupied territory is a war crime because that is what the Nazis did.
And then a half million Jews have be removed to Israel to tent cities but Jews are too good for tent cities which are good enough for Palestinians.
Funny thing is Palestinians are just people whose jewish ancestors converted to Islam.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I can only say if you are dumb enough to believe that happened then you need to read www.rense.com for your daily dose of insane conspiracy truths which is where this one got its start.
A rational person says if you want to dispose of nuclear waste in the ocean one notes that 99.99% of the oceans are not in territorial waters of any country and does not need to seek out unguarded territorial waters for dumping.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
A cursory examination shows your last post to be as devoid of logic and intellect as all your others. Clearly you are too stupid to waste time on.
Btw, you don't want me exposing your stupidity for what it is, don't throw the first punch. Moron.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Rofl. You said wikipedia was unacceptable for high school, and I refuted you. Exactly what do you need specified?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Somalis are killing each other Jews are killing non-Jews. There is a difference.
A civil war is not a war of foreign aggression.
Somalis cannot occupy Somalia. Jews can and do occupy the West Bank and Jerusalem and Gaza (according to an Israeli court opinion) and southern Syria.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I have to agree that Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Even Wikipedia says that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Good. You stipulate the citation from Wikipedia was non-responsive, that it did not address the subject under discussion and in no way demonstrated Palestinian leaders are religious fruitcakes like Israel's political leaders.
Now lets address your claim. Give the exact identification of the school district which accepts it and their email addr if you have it so I can verify your assertion. Please restate your exact assertion so that I may quote you correctly in my email exchange.
I can see you feverishly thinking of a way out of this one.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Agreed. It is good for locating sources. But here the point is calling the bluff that it is acceptable as a primary reference. Maybe it is a Texas school.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Now you're so desperate that you're throwing strawmen about. ALL I said was that wikipedia was a far more reliable resource than it once was, and that it is an acceptable resource for high school. The rest of the shit you added on was shit you added on.
I was in the Leeds & Grenville district at the time. Look it up yourself.
I can see you feverishly thinking of a way out of this one.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Well, worse is a subjective assessment but let's say for the sake of argument that what you're suggesting is true - I don't believe it is btw - and that all this comes not from any genuine humanitarian concern but purely personal animus. So what? What difference could that possibly make in terms of the facts? This is an anti-religious website. Criticism of religious people and their idiotic behavior is exactly what I expect to see here. What I don't expect are rabidly anti-religious atheists defending a self declared religious state that's oppressing people for apparently religious reasons.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
"Agreed. It is good for locating sources. But here the point is calling the bluff that it is acceptable as a primary reference. Maybe it is a Texas school."
Uh oh, another strawman. I said it was an acceptable source and resource, not an acceptable primary/singular source.
You're just digging yourself a deeper grave Kansas boy.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Thanks for explaining you resent your country's support for Israel.
I think I now understand your position and reasons.
I consider the US invasion of Iraq to have been illegal and against the principles I was taught as an American. Nothing justifies what Bush did. That Congress went along with it only spreads the guilt.
The US in its blindness to consequence has supported many despicable dictatorships and countries mostly in its fear of the 'red menace'. Or for other less then pristine reasons. The US has caused many of its own problems today because of past support of dictators and repression in many counties such as in Iran (the Shah), Cuba (Batista), Haiti (Papa Doc), Saudi Arabia (the house of Saud), Egypt (Nassar), Iraq (Sadaam-while he fought Iran), Bin Ladin (while he fought the Russians), Viet Nam (rejected Ho Chi Minh's efforts for independence support many times-Wilson, FDR, Truman) and a long list of Banana Republic dictators and the list goes on and on.
And by the way Nony, I remember quite well when Israel bombed and strafed the shit out of the USS Liberty, I had friends in the US Navy, I was nearly draft age in 1967.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
It is unfortunate that when Saladin recaptured Jerusalem from the Crusaders that it was not destroyed to the last stone.
And Jews (from Palestine) are no damn different in their ethinic lineage then Arabs. They all settled there once upon a time long long ago - no invasion by Hebrew escapee slaves or any of the stupid mythical story telling.
And you realize I don't agree with the accepted Bible myth origins any more than you, I just use a different date than the 2nd century BCE for the creation of the Jewish myth stories.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I'm certainly not defending Israel at all.
Give them their freedom already.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
So is the USS Liberty the reason for your views?
I as mentioned, remember this incident well, I was almost 17. I had friends in the US Navy at the time, not on the Liberty but on others. They all wanted to nuke Israel to dust at the time.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
What do you suggest as a better name for the ruthless tyranny it operates in the West Bank? Consult the new double-speak dictionary if you must.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
You stated for a fact that it was acceptable. Therefore you must know exactly which high schools accept it. I asked you what they were and you have nothing. Therefore you made a claim without knowledge. You made it up.
Is invention the best you can do in public discussion?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
You are also the first to ask.
My website www.giwersworld.org has enough condemnations of Bush's war a aggression against Iraq that I would not dare have posted a fraction of them were I still working for DOD. If the ICC indicts him and all those involved at the level of the Nuremberg standard I will contribute to the plane fare. There are thousands of Americans dead because of him. There are tens of thousands maimed because of him. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in one of the other of those categories. All because he wanted to attack Iraq for no lawful reason. It was his war of choice.
As I said, I worked for DOD. During the Cold War the objective was to win. If that meant supporting dictatorships, tough. My country comes first. After the Cold War every pawn but Israel was dropped. That is what happened to Somalia. That is what happened to Saddam Hussein.
I am not basically moral or self-righteous. I am self-interested and country interested. The continued support of Israel is a loss in every way. Israel has never at any time been of value to the US beyond a claim its prosperity was a result of capitalism vice communism.
I read in all the political analyses starting with the NY Times that the only reason for support of Israel is money from jewish organizations. The Irish did not demand we bomb London. Unlike Jews the Irish have shown no allegiance to a foreign country. To repeat, I am not concerned about dual loyalties. I am concerned there may not be dual loyalties.
Every one of those was Cold War related. Geopolitics is much dirtier than national politics. I picked up a feel for the dirty side while with DOD. In those cases, you hold your nose and do what is best for the US and to hell with the fallout. If we win we can deal with the fallout later was the attitude. It is better than losing.
I had just hired on with the Navy when it happened. Gus Hubbel was a friend of mine.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Some asshole would have rebuilt it and declared another miracle.
As we agree it is contrary to known facts about the history of bibleland a serious discussion of possible sources for the myths is dispassionate. I would very much like to hear the evidence upon which you base an alternate date and what that date might be. I would have no problem with an older date if there were evidence of a literate culture to have created it.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
As you saw in the longer discussion it is just one of many. The Liberty is the reason I advocate an Israeli style response to it even at this late date. Israeli style is wildly disproportionate and massively destructive of lives and property. Although I suggest nuking Tel Aviv that is perhaps too disproportionate. Laying waste to Tel Aviv with conventional weapons should be sufficient to use Israeli methods against them.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
National Jewish Defense Council
Jewish Defense League
Conference of Presidents of jewish organizations
Jewish Council for Public Affairs
Jewish Voice for Peace
Orthodox Union
Emergency Committee for Israel
American Jewish Committee
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Let me focus on one point here.
It is not desert. It WAS home to a million Palestinians which was about the pre-industrial carrying capacity of the land.
Despite the usual depiction of the Palestinians as backwards by those dumb enough to believe jewish propaganda about them it was a major source of citrus and olive oil based soap for Europe before the Jews arrived.
I remember one Jew constantly bragging about the Jaffa orange. I got tired of it and researched it. It was developed by Palestinians. In fact when Florida decided to develop itself as a citrus industry they hired dozens of Palestinians to come over and teach cultivation methods.
The Jews did not improve an acre of land except for one swamp drained near modern Tel Aviv. That was done with Carnegie money using Palestinian labor. Jewish involvement was limited to foreign financing.
All the land they showed off under the "made the desert bloom" banner were in fact stolen Palestinian farms. What they were showing off was as they found it before they stole it. Absentee owner laws protected them as if the owner showed up they could murder him as an infiltrator and be praised by the Jews around the world for defending "jewish" lands.
It is not over a desert. It is over a means of earning a living. It is over the historic and on-going theft of land from non-Jews.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
In Israel there is regular debate as to the effectiveness of the indoctrination program that is called "Birthright Tours." It is mostly privately financed bringing high school level Jews from all of the world for an intensive sales pitch on how great Israel is. There is a lot in the tour.
One is always a real macho visit to a model St&uumal;rmsoldaten, excuse me, IDF base. People they are told are major political leaders take their valuable time to welcome them and lie to them. They are shown socialist Kibbutzim at times when Jews are working the land instead of the usual Palestinian labor force.
They are never shown 1/6 of Israel, the non-Jewish part. They are never shown the occupation save for a quick trip to occupied east Jerusalem where they are shown the Knesset chambers and a few words from another jewish politician.
In any event, if there were any question of effectiveness of the indoctrination they need only read these threads.
BTW: The name Birthright itself shows Jews are religious crazies. That is an appeal to bible fiction which they believe is real because their mountain god, Amen, told them so.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Actually Israel is completely irresponsible.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Clearly Israel is ruled by religious fruitcakes. That their erstwhile apologists keep lying in claiming the Palestinians are the same is as good as an admission.
Admitting Israel as a theocracy would be no different from declaring the US a Christian nation. But the US has a greater precentage of Christians in its population than Israel has Jews. Democracies never permit religious favoritism. In Israel it is written in its Jim Crow laws.
Rudeness as a cultural norm, Beyond Chutzpah. It is deliberate and willful. It is supposed to make you pissed at Jews so they can say you hate them for no fault of their own.
Pissing off non-Jews is an Ashkenazi (the kind of Jews we mostly have in the US) is a cultural imperative. I have read rebbes writing, bemoaning the fact that young Jews spend all their time defining themselves as non-Christians rather than as Jews. They do whatever they can to piss off Christians. They openly violate customs which are chosen to incite Christians. That the same things would incite jewish Israelis is not of interest to them.
The name escapes me but he was a Jew and a leader in the Gay Pride movement, president of one of the orgs. He announced early this year that he was retiring from the job and that he was really straight after all. Just fooling!
And the best of all they hypocritical claim to have brought about the end of segregation in the South. Oh they do so care about minority rights. They really only cared because it pissed of Christians. In Israel Jews FORK the minorities with Jim Crow laws damn near copied from the South.
They don't give a rat's ass about minorities unless they are one of the minorities. When they are the majority, fuck 'em.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Edit: Question answered elsewhere.
Still, Israel is not a dictatorship.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Occupier is the correct term, oh ignorant one. I understand you like using emotionally charged terms, but at least use applicable ones.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"You stated for a fact that it was acceptable."
And it is.
"Therefore you must know exactly which high schools accept it. I asked you what they were and you have nothing. Therefore you made a claim without knowledge. You made it up."
Blatant lie. I told you the district. I knew you'd be desperate, I didn't realise you'd be THAT desperate. ROFL.
Just how many strawmen and lies are you going to break out to defend your falsehoods?
"Actually Israel is completely irresponsible."
ACTUALLY, the only power that can be accused of complete responsibility is the UN.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
How about this: The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel
^ Lobbiests
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I don't think he'll find that sufficient, as he targets the term jew far more often than the term Israel.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
How about Anony's racist ranting against the Jews?
Thanks for clarifying this, I now understand.
I also want them to be held accountable for these war crimes for this attack as well as anyone who covered it up in the US. NAZIs have been chased and prosecuted 50 -60 years after their crimes and this is no different.
I always considered the attack on the Liberty to have been an act of war. That LBJ did nothing shows he and his administration were either complicit or covered it up due to 'geopolitics' where they under the table sold out the US Navy and the US to gain something in the 'red menace' cold war. Though I never could grasp WTF it may have been.
I figure that Israel didn't want the US to know what was progressing in the war and their goal was to kill all on the Liberty and/or put it out of commission so that we wouldn't know what was going on. There was speculation they did this because they feared we'd tell Egypt what we found out in regards to perhaps their troop movements. That the 6th Fleet did not respond to the defense of the Liberty in 10 minutes or so is even more suspicious as that was what the Liberty was told would happen. The response should have been multiple aircraft to defend and fend off any attackers no matter who they were.
Also I consider LBJ to have been a criminal genocidal murderer due to his continuation of the Viet Nam War which resulted in many of my friends being killed, maimed or just permanently screwed up.
We respond to this in different ways however.
I have personally met a Japanese pilot who was in the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. He was not proud of what happened or so he told me. The US punished Japan sufficiently during and after that war. Today all is forgiven. Once those who were responsible for the war crimes by Japan were brought to justice. The same needs to happen to Israel for what they did to us.
As to Israel, I still want justice for the Liberty. As to what else they are doing it should be investigated and those responsible should pay for any crimes that they have done.
After that, forgiveness can come. I do not hold every Israeli or Jew responsible for the actions of some anymore than I held every Japanese responsible for attacking Pearl Harbor. And one of my uncles was there as well as my father in law when Japan attacked. Both survived though my father in law hated Japs for all of his life. He was a fireman who had to deal with all of the destruction and death on a very personal level, so I understood his hate.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.