what faith you
Posted on: September 6, 2007 - 7:57pm
Offline
what faith you
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it.
I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple.
I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me.
Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to introduce mephibosheth. The ultimate oxymoron. A person who communicates to us through his scientifically conceptualized, designed, and manufactured computer to tell us that science doesn't know shit about what it's talking about.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Will,
I noticed the politeness. Don't let it get in the way of communication.
I'm sure you have heard of the math term "extrapolation". That's what you guys are doing with my statements. I'm not aiming to do that with yours, point it out if I do.
I didn't badmouth science - I said God made the scientist. Actually, rightly seen that's an enhancement to the scientist rather than a put down.
The God who made the scientist knows infinitely more science than the scientist.
It's interesting you mentioned the term "crazy train" in the same post as "not knowing what germs were". In the mid 19th Century a young up and coming Hungarian doctor Ignatz Semmelweis working at a major Viennese hospital noticed that many more babies delivered by midwives survived than those delivered by doctors.
Looking into why this was, he noted that the midwives washed their hands, while the doctors, fresh from pathology, did not. Dr Semmelweis instituted a program in his department requiring that doctors disinfected their hands and infant mortality dropped by 20%. Far from being hailed for the discovery he was greeted with hostility and dismissed.
Findind work in a small provincial hospital, where he continued to enrage his colleagues by trying to persuade them to wash their hands, Semmelweis was committed to an insane asylum for his pains. He died at the age of 42 after a beating from the asylum guards, it is said.
You may just have a "feeling" I'm crazy rather than it being true because what I'm saying is different.
I appreciate my computer, electricity, light, heat, etc. I haven't said otherwise, it's just that we are having trouble understanding each other, and I think it starts with our different perspective of Jesus, God and the Bible. Show me where I have slammed science. It's no slam to science to say that God created it and the scientist.
Mephibosheth (does that make me crazy? possibly.... oohhh)
If God created reason and science why does he want his followers to give it up and replace them with faith and dogma?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Because he's a mystery that's way[/theist]
Shoot,
I was hoping some theist would come on and tell me how faith really supplemets reason by abandoning it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
So you agree with the scientific communtity that agrees that Evolution is true and that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old?
You agree that humans are one species of the Great Apes? That Chimpanzees and Humans share a common ancestor around 6-12 million years ago? You agree that life started out very simple, evolved to a single celled organism, remained single celled for billions of years, then became multicellular, evolved into a fish, then into an amphibian type creature that started venturing onto land, then into a reptilian-like creature, then a mammal-like reptile, then a mammal, then an early primate-like creature, then split into monkeys and apes, then the apes into Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimps, Bonobos, then humans and ultimately you?
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
JCG,
In the beginning was the Word, He was with God. All things were created through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.
The Word is Jesus, a member of the Godhead. The Word took on flesh, which we are told in Hebrews is metaphorically represented by the veil between us and the Holy of Holies that was in the temple - we enter the Holy of Holies through the veil, that is, His Flesh. Jesus took His sacrifice to the real temple in heaven - the one that the earthly tabernacle was a copy of.
The high priest only went in once a year, taking the blood of the passover lamb. When Jesus died on the Cross, His side was gashed, the veil was ripped from top to bottom, and we are able to enter into communion with God through the blood and flesh of Jesus' sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
You can't understand John the Baptist without including Jesus in the equation (he only existed to proclaim the Lamb of God, the Great Sacrifice that was coming). He was the "Voice" - Herod silenced him. But he led people beyond himself to Jesus, the Lamb of God.
You are having the same problem with me. You don't understand where I'm coming from because you aren't figuring Jesus into it, because fortunately Jesus came to save sinners, I'm one, and Jesus has allowed me to be born again into Him, born of the water and the Spirit.
I am having a little different problem understanding you. I remember when I was in your position, ignorant of what a relationship with Christ was. The problem I am having is vexation not understanding why anyone would want to stay that way.
Faith is a great gift from God. Faith lights up reason. The Word you reject is the same word in the bible for "Wisdom". The world was spoken into existence by the Word of God. You are rejecting the most fundamental part of the world.
The wisdom of God is spiritually discerned. If you had a relationship with Jesus you would understand the reason to what I've been saying. Since you don't - you don't understand and mock it to your own hurt.
The whole point of difference between us is accepting/rejecting Jesus.
mephibosheth
(happy to be the least in the kingdom of heaven - in Christ)
Please. I really do wish to understand.
Exactly what was the sacrifice? What did Jesus give up on the cross that made it a sacrifice?
This is one of admittedly many mysteries I don't understand. But, without understanding, there is no acceptance.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
I know the story. Did you know he had access to microscopes, and if he had gone with the scientific method instead of calling the problem "cadaver material" he would have discovered microbes before Pasteur? He didn't even know why he was washing his hands.
What you're saying is banal, and I'm not qualified to diagnose people as sane or insane. I rescind any implication of insanity and apologize, as I am neither psychiatrist nor psychologist.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
If the Bible is God's word, then why are you saying we have to accept its truth before we read it instead of reading and then interpreting it for ourselves? As I posed to another theist on this forum, if the word of God is true, then why isn't an academic study of the Bible enough to convert me? It's a far more interesting book when you're allowed to come to your own conclusions about it.
How come Protestantism is so subject to factionalism then? I very much doubt that even if we renounced atheism tomorrow and joined an evangelical church, that you and I would suddenly begin to agree on everything. Does EVERY SINGLE PERSON in your church agree on EVERYTHING OTHER THAN RELIGION? If the answer's yes, then your church sounds more like a brainwashing cult.
To center the entire debate between atheists and theists around Christianity is arrogantly Christian-centric. Christianity maybe the most pervasive religion in the world, but it's not the only irrational belief system that seriously has to be eradicated before it can do any more harm to society, and especially those of us in society who aren't looking forward to the self-fulfilling prophecy of your so-called "end times." Those of us interested in the progress of human society prefer not to encourage people to think the world's about to end. We find that it produces disastrous results. Please consider this next time you see your church brainwashing innocent children.
Corollary: I'm happy to be among the best and first of people who live in the real word. Tell me, do they have cocktail weenies in the Kingdom of Heaven? Or is that only in Valhalla?
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
NigelTheBold,
The Word became flesh. Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son. Due to God's justice He couldn't excuse sin without the price being paid, so He sent His Beloved Son to earth to take on a real body in the womb of a sinful woman (all mankind has fallen).
Jesus then grew up as a man. He was tempted in all ways we are. If you accept the Bible that means a lot to us as men.
Jesus proceeded then to live the only perfect life without sin. He could have fallen in this, and He was severely tempted, but He went on to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. All that believe on Him, accept His sacrifice on the Cross, all who accept Him as Lord thus accept God's Righteousness instead of their own.
A comparison of the difference between man's righteousness and God's Righteousness is that after Adam sinned he tried to cover his nakedness with leaves sewed together. God has The Wedding Party of all Wedding Parties scheduled in honor of His Son and He has given out Wedding Garments to all who accept Christ - they are clothed in Christ.
The sacrifice. Abraham gets a taste of the emotions from the father's side when he went on the three day journey to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac. He didn't want to do it, but He had faith that God could raise Isaac from the dead if necessary. The knife was in the air and maybe coming down when God stopped him. The test was over. God had provided a sacrifice caught in the thicket nearby.
Jesus really didn't want to die the most torturous death devised plus become a curse (cursed are all who hang on a tree), and He didn't want to experience separation between Him and God (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?) but for the joy set before Him He became sin - though He had no sin - and the high priest brought the knife down on the Lamb of God.
Death met something it had never met before in Christ. Jesus was not under the curse of sin, He had never sinned. Death also had never met a man who had Life in Himself. "In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of man". Death sucked life out of Jesus and poisoned himself. Jesus destroyed death.
What a Sacrifice!! For God to become a lowly man, even to wash man's feet and die on a Cross to show us how much He wants us to be with Him eternally! Jesus endured the Cross for the joy set before Him. Part of that joy is that men like you would see the Light of the gospel and the same power that raised Him from the dead would work in you.
He is alive and will respond if you pray to Him. You can have a relationship with Him. After He came back to life He went to extraordinary means to show the disciples he was a body with bones and flesh. He showed his wounds, his weapons that He had defeated Death with.
Forgiving us wasn't easy. It pierced the very heart of God to do it. It truly was The Sacrifice of Sacrifices, and I'm not worthy to be the one telling you, but I'm giving it a try.
You are NigeltheBold? Take a look at God's Warrior and His Victory over Death.
mephibosheth (I'd like to Kimbo Slice the Devil)
[MOD EDIT] Double Post
Long on preaching,short on answers.
In other words, I have to accept Jesus blindly before He will allow me to understand him.
Would you like to answer my question now? I'll ask it again. Why would your God create human reason and science (as you claim) if he wanted humans to accept everythimg on faith?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You know he's only going to say that God wants to test our faith.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
I'm just waiting to see if he will answer my questions about evolution and the age of the earth. Anyone want to bet he will either A) ignore those questions and this post as well B) respond what I say in this post without answering my previous questions or C) actually answer it?
I'm putting my money on B.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
[MOD EDIT] Triple post
I can't stand misogynists, can you Nigel?
I'm trying to make up my razoodocks about which horrorshow brahzny slovos to hurl at him and his bog or god or like whatever.
“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”
Hrm. Some can be entertaining (like in My Fair Lady). But this is just... well, I'm not sure what. Partly because the mods removed not two, but three of triple posts. So I can't see the full reply. However, I think I can see where it's going.
God is one Hell of a misogynist. And an abusive father. "But He LUUUUUUUVS us!"
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Come to think of it, God really IS a misogynist. Or, at least, the Bible is.
Consider Eve. If she really had no conception of sin (as has been expressed in this thread), then how was she to know that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge was a sin? I mean, sure, God told her not to; but if she didn't about sin, how could she know eating the fuit would be a sin?
Otherwise, she did have knowledge of sin.
It's kind of like telling a toddler, "Don't touch the stove, you'll hurt yourself." But you know the kid is gonna try to touch the stove. So, you let the kid touch the stove, and they cry, and you say, "Shut up. I told you if you touched the stove, you'd burn yourself. NOW will you listen to me?"
Because that's the way innosence works.
So that was kind of a setup by God, wasn't it?
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
This is henceforth my permanent and repeated comment until Mephibosheth answers me:
So you agree with the scientific community that agrees that Evolution is true and that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old?
You agree that humans are one species of the Great Apes? That Chimpanzees and Humans share a common ancestor around 6-12 million years ago? You agree that life started out very simple, evolved to a single celled organism, remained single celled for billions of years, then became multicellular, evolved into a fish, then into an amphibian type creature that started venturing onto land, then into a reptilian-like creature, then a mammal-like reptile, then a mammal, then an early primate-like creature, then split into monkeys and apes, then the apes into Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimps, Bonobos, then humans and ultimately you?
Or is it "science doesn't know shit about what it's talking about"?
Answer my questions or you can ignore them like a coward.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Watcher,
I'll try but I don't think there's any courage involved.
You set up a false dilemma. A Quaker can make a good chair and I sit in it - now do I have to say I'm a Quaker?
Science takes things God has spoken into existence, observes them, focuses in close on them, stumbles on to some things, uses the God created mind and reasoning to develop other things - then, we use them.
You come along and say since I use the computer I have to believe what some (not all by the way) scientist says? You're not being rational with that.
Again, I believe totally the Bible. It is also a world in itself to explore, and I have not plumbed the depths or reached the heights of it, but I totally believe it and marvel at it as the many splendorous beauties of the creation.
There is a big chasm between science observing and making things out of stuff from the earth's storehouse and science being a god I bow down to, a god that can tell me how I should live my life or a god that has created what it observes and uses.
Now, as to the age of the earth. I don't find that addressed in my Bible, except there is a passage that might hint in Ecclesiastes. It says there is nothing new under the sun, then asks the question - "is there something that is said to be new?" (paraphrased) "it has been already in the ages before us".
This is entirely imagination and speculation, I'm just dreaming with you here: Possibly, God being eternal and not One to be lazy, He just might have done this all before. Maybe God recycles.
Mephibosheth (courage in typing)
nigelTheBold,
I tried to answer this earlier but had a little problem with my computer science, plus I was a little wordy.
I don't know what would compare to God becoming a man - the Word becoming flesh, Jesus. But I'm sure that would involve sacrifice. I don't think a man becoming a dog to help dogs would compare - too close.
God letting His Son become a man and fight it out in the earth cage and watch Him be beaten (imagine this with your son if you have one, and imagine that all the time you could do something about it). To watch His Son be tortured to death as a totally innocent man to pay the price of God's own justice was Sacrifice.
For Jesus to not call for angels to deliver Him was Sacrifice. For Jesus to allow Himself to become a curse for us, to become sin for us and experience separation from the Father (My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?) was Sacrifice.
You know, the Bible pretty much brushes over the pain and agony. It just says, "they crucified Him." But I would say the pain was great Sacrifice.
He Sacrificed Himself and His own desires to pay this price for all who accept and believe in Him. He did it for the joy set before Him - for one the joys of us getting to spend eternity with God. This is real unselfish love.
Mephibosheth (trying to comprehend The Sacrifice)
At what point did Jesus stop being God? There was no point that Jesus stopped being God so he didn't give up his Godhood. No sacrifice there.
God watched himself being beaten and did nothing to stop it. Nothing like being the voyeur and the bottom at the same time.
I really don't think physical pain for a short time would bother an eternal being all that much. we don't know that Jesus, being God, didn't simply shut off the nerve endings of the body that he inhabited. We only have the views of the Gospel writers who, being human, thought, "That must've hurt because it would hurt me". If you look at Paul you can see the crucifiction as more of a spirtual concept and nothing physical was involved.
As God, being eternal (by your definition) did not (and could not) lose his life, you're 0-2 on the sacrifice.
He was God, spent approximately 3 days "dead" (again impossible for an eternal being) and went back to being God.
No sacrifice and plagiarism besides. I lost count of how many beings that pre-existed the Bible have this same story in their mythology.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Science does not work perfectly well by creating computers and the internet, or sending a probe to Mars but COMPLETLY fail at telling us about evolution or the age of the Earth. If you think such a thing then you don't have the slightest clue how science works. Answer my questions with FIRST a yes or no answer and then explain why you said yes or no afterwards if you want to explain yourself.
Admit that you refuse to answer me or answer me you stubborn old coot.
So you agree with the scientific community that agrees that Evolution is true and that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old?
You agree that humans are one species of the Great Apes? That Chimpanzees and Humans share a common ancestor around 6-12 million years ago? You agree that life started out very simple, evolved to a single celled organism, remained single celled for billions of years, then became multicellular, evolved into a fish, then into an amphibian type creature that started venturing onto land, then into a reptilian-like creature, then a mammal-like reptile, then a mammal, then an early primate-like creature, then split into monkeys and apes, then the apes into Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimps, Bonobos, then humans and ultimately you?
Or is it "science doesn't know shit about what it's talking about"?
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Name one legitimate scientist that says that evolution is not true and that the age of the Earth is not billions of years old. Tell me this scientists name. Let me research a single scientist that holds the idea that these facts are not true. BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT! A name please.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith."
--Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -
--Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, during the trial of Galileo
YES, Watcher,
WOW, YES, science has you much more impressed than me. NO, I don't think science is God.
NO, don't think science offers the solution to man's basic need. YES, Science makes the computer, then the computer guided missile.
NO, I don't think science knows what it's talking about - saying that man evolved from apes. The reason is this: it says the opposite of what the Bible says. YES, I believe the Bible - man was created in the image of God. YES, there is a gap, a gulf between man and the animals and it is this: man was created in the image of God.
You heard about the Piltdown Man hoax YES? I think it was taught as true evidence when this old coot was in school. Then, when I was in school you put one thing on burns - now the opposite. One thing's bad for you this year - the next year it's good. Can you keep up with all this?
NO, I don't know any scientists personally, though I'd like to work for them. When I find a name like Alister McGrath on the internet it might as well be Leviticus himself for all I know. It's just a name. There aren't many scientists in the construction business.
NO, I'm not taking a poll of what other people think about it concerning my faith. There are people in the Bible that were virtually the only one at their time in their part of town that were right, so I might have to stand alone in my faith which is fine. I can give you a few of those lonely names: Noah, Jeremiah, Micah, Joseph.
YES, while there is value in getting counsel on things to base your faith on a poll of what most scientists believe is putting your faith in man. NO, I don't aim to do that.
Mephibosheth (YES, I may be slow but I'm expensive)
PS, NO, as far as the age of the earth I don't find that in my Bible. Go figure it, YES, I don't know. NO, you can have the duck on that. YES, beats me. If you cut the tree down on the day it was created and it had 100 rings you would say it was how old? NO, I don't know.
Yes, your view of evolution is a strawman.
Yes, you dig preaching.
Yes, science acts on new information. The Piltdown hoax was revealed by scientists, not religionists.
Yes, you forgot about my question. If your God created reason and science, why does he want you to abandon those things and replace them with faith?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
entomophila,
You surely understand that you are just quoting ideas of men and not what the scripture says.
You can read in Ecclesiastes that you find error everywhere: "Moreover I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work."
Those who are easily "wowed" will be led astray by such.
Mephibosheth
1. Don't call me "surely'...
2. Yes, you are correct. There are mistakes in Ecclesiasteses and every other part of the bible. I think you need a history lesson about the bible.
3. The bible is quite clear with these particular statements; the earth is flat (it has 4 corners) and the all the stars and the sun revolve around the earth. Yet religious whackos were willing to execute the humans (in the name of a god) who proved these assumptions to be wrong.
4. I'm quoting ideas of men? I quoted what men said (past tense). It was the men (who probably had help from women) who figured out that the earth wasn't flat and that the earth revolves around the sun. Apparently your god isn't too smart. He certainly had a communication problem, at the very least.
5. Your grammar is atrocious.
As the scripture is nought but the ideas of men...
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG,
YES, I am trying to answer your questions as far as I am concerned, and YES, I did forget this one, though YES, to me I answered it. NO, I don't think I can to you.
To me, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior (figure that in to my answer from my side) ----- YES, THE GOSPEL AND SALVATION IS REASONABLE TO ME. I don't view faith in Jesus as shutting down reason in the least.
You NO, don't accept Jesus as the Son of God or King of Kings or the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of those who believe in him. Thus, NO, the gospel is not reasonable to you. You don't enter the door and see it from the inside. You can think you understand what it's like being in Christ from your impression of what you think it would be like, but it has to be a personal experience. It is open to you though.
I'm just playing around with the yes and no's - I'll quit it. Hey, we're having a little fun on the atheist website! Do you guys have a song?
I, I believe in nothing
I believe this life is all there is
My faith has no application
No future for my peers
(I can't write notes for this, sorry. It's based on a tune we sing with different lyrics)
Mephibosheth (I say YES, you say NO)
Cute song.
If you're going to steal a song, make it a decent one. I mean, c'mon, Mac Davis' "I Believe in Music"?
Shame it's a straw man view as well.
My peers and I make our own futures. It's a lot more secure than hoping that you guessed the right God after you're dead.
Other than that, it was the same old "You have to blindly believe in god before you can really understand him" bull. I hope you didn't do that with the rest of you're education.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Thank you mephibosheth for finally answering my questions. My original statement has now been validated as accurate.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to introduce mephibosheth. The ultimate oxymoron. A person who communicates to us through his scientifically conceptualized, designed, and manufactured computer to tell us that science doesn't know shit about what it's talking about.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Oh I LOVE the Piltdown Man defense that fundys use. Wonderfully absurd for them to even think it up in the first place much less continue to use it.
I would be extremely surprised to hear of it taught as true at anytime. Most scientists called it bunk from the getgo. And guess what type of people exposed it as a hoax? Scientists! That's right, science is self correcting.
Most fundys like to point out the fact that Science is self correcting like it's a weak point or something. This is completely absurd. The ability of Science to correct its mistakes is what gives Science its strength. Every day little tidbits are corrected, fine tuned, and added to science. Every day it has more data, more correct data, and better ways of making our lives better. It is an extremely powerful tool of science.
Religion on the other hand is wonderfully rigid and hardheaded in its viewpoints. And THAT is the one, single thing that will destroy religion. Because of the fact that the abrahamic faiths can no longer officially change their holy books, they look more and more absurd with every passing century. As we learn more about reality believers in these faiths have to ignore more and more of their holy books. And they also have to continuously explain to people why their holy book does not mean what it actually says. Beautiful. Die religion. Rot in the trashbin of stupidity and ignorance.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
So you admit that your implied statement "some (not all by the way) scientist says?" is based on no factual information? You can not point me to a SINGLE credible scientist that refutes the accepted scientific opinion on evolution and the Earth's age for me to research their credentials and academic standing? You are just talking out of your ass and you completely admit it?
Newflash. Humans didn't evolve from apes. Humans are apes. Lesser Apes: Various species of Gibbons. Great Apes: Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Humans.
An ape didn't evolve from an ape? That's what you are saying? God was created in the image of ape? Why would god need a mouth to chew? Two eyes....TWO of them...for fucking depth perception. So "god" can tell with his eyes if he is seeing something 5 feet away or 15 feet away? God needs two eyes for depth perception? TWO ears...god needs two fucking ears so he can tell from which direction a sound is coming? That's right, the all-knowing god needs two ears to learn from which direction something is approaching him. God needs arms to...uhm....wave around or something. Heck he is a magical wizard that only has to speak to make the universe spring into existence but the guy needs arms. Sleeves are cool to god and without arms you look a little silly with sleeves. Two legs to walk in gravity on land....yeah....god needs that... Does god have a wang? Bunghole? Where is the heavenly crapper? Did god circumsize himself or was the foreskin an oversight that god made that he mandated mankind to correct?
Does this completely ridiculous, simplistic, and childish bullshit really make sense to you, Mephibosheth? And please remember, it's not about me convincing you, it's about you convincing the silent readers that are reading our exchange. Can you provide any logical reasons to believe in your "faith"?
Bring me some devastating info. If you want to quote scripture like you were doing earlier...I'm already salivating over that. I'm ready to throw scripture right in front of your face from my KJV leather bound bible with my name imprinted on the cover.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Hell, yes we have songs! We have a complete ahymnal, for singing songs not praising God's name.
Let's see, we have:
"I'm an Atheist (And I'm OK)" on page 13
"Jesus Saves Souls (And Trades Them For Valuable Prizes)" on page 17
"When The Saints Go Marching In" on page 19 (I don't know what that one's in there -- I guess it's just fun to sing)
"Death to All Christians, and Then We'll Have Ice Cream" on page 29
"The Lies of Science Make Me Proud" on page 37
"I Can't Wait For Satan, My Master" on page 43
"Louis, Louis" on page 47 (bet you didn't know that was an atheist anthem, did you?)
"If Jesus Was So Smart, Why'd He Get Nailed?" on page 53
And so on. I'm sure you get the idea. It's hard to get a good thrash-metal guitarist who can play them properly, though.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Atheist for the most part do not believe there is no possible chance of a God, they just do not believe in something without evidence. To an atheist God is a possibility but so is a teapot orbiting Earth.
Faith is belief without evidence, atheists however believe only what can be proven and say other stuff is possible but not supported by evidence. Atheists can also in their minds assign likelihoods to certain unproven things. I am sure many atheists believe in the possibility of vampires but do not accept they are real on faith. Belief in a God is accepting something as real with no proof. You are basically saying ‘shit I am too stupid to comprehend that so I will say a magic man created it’. Atheists see things and they say that it all came from the big bang because that is what the evidence shows. What came before the big bang? We have no fucking clue yet. However we sure as hell aren’t idiotic and deluded enough to say it must be the work of some magical man. Sure it is possible it was a magic man, it is also possible some scientist created us in a beaker.
Atheists do not make crazy assumptions based on absolutely no evidence because it makes them feel good inside. Atheists demand evidence, you are different, you just make shit up and believe it.
Chances are you are not too smart and have absolutely no concept of modern science. So you just point and say that it must be created by supernatural magic.
NOTE: I realize I am generalizing and not all atheists have the same set of beliefs, I am talking in general.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Watcher,
Calm down, you're going to wake the baby. Watcher, I'm being totally honest with you. The Bible totally makes sense to me. There are mysterious parts that I just marvel at, but that Book totally does it for me. I get my daily bread from that One Book. I love It. I love the God who wrote it and His Son.
I sense that you love science, probably know a lot of science. It answers the questions of life for you - where you came from, where you're going, why you're here. Or maybe you would probably state it a different way; in fact, I'm sure you would state anything a different way than me. That's ok with me.
I'm struggling to focus on the treasure I've found: One Man/Lord Jesus, One Book, one day at a time, one thought at a time. You would say I'm pretty simple minded, but that's me. You can look through my posts, the ones that I can't even remember and see that's me, transparent. And you don't see a thing you like, I know. That's ok with me, I don't hold it against you at all. In fact you look like a cool guy.
Jesus said men of violence take the Kingdom of Heaven by force, and that feels like it's been the case with me. People don't "line up" and "pour in" to the Kingdom of Heaven like American Idol. It's more like a plant springing up in the crack of a parking lot.
Not long after I became a Christian I became divorced from reality by bipolar at the prime age of 19 (in 1963). I was taken to Pdocs that made fun of my Bible, told me to get rid of it and misdiagnosed and mistreated me with shock treatments. I later read a book and found out what my problem was and the treatment is simple. All the time, even divorced from reality I knew the Bible was true. My spiritual and moral anchor held.
The proverb, "Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life" was a lifeline to me. This was my line of battle, and in the light of my faith and in the power of God in Christ I was and am able to stand and fight off impure thoughts - not that I couldn't fall at any time, but I experience the renewing power of the Holy Spirit and God and Jesus in my heart to constantly be inspired to fight.
That fight, however, is not against you or any of the men and women on this website. I don't take any of the statements against me personal, I grieve about them because they are about the One I know is your best Friend. He didn't push Himself on anybody, and I don't aim to, but I probably fail in that many times.
I have ended up with kind of a cynical view of doctors and science because of the ways I was mis-diagnosed. I think I have forgiven all the mistakes unless I'm fooling myself, but I don't think they always know as much as they think they do. I can say the same about myself.
Mephibosheth (transparent, but you don't see what you want)
I'm sure the men who wrote the gospel would be happy to get your worship (if they weren't dead).
Love science, no. Love learning the things that science has discovered, ok. It makes a bit more sense than saying "God did it" to avoid feeling guilty about using what humans helped bring about.
As far as people not pouring in to the Kingdom of Heaven, the Christian majority in America makes it look like the tide is coming into Heaven. And they all claim to be "true" Christians as well. It's not like Christianity has to fight and scratch to get a foothold.
I find it interesting that you claim the bible got you out of bipolar. I didn't leave my depression until I got rid of the Bible and got on meds. You claim the Bible was your moral compass and anchor. In my reading, what few parts of the bible that are moral came from other man-made sources. The parts involving God directly are about as moral as pedophilia.
I'm sorry about your mis-diagnosis. I still don't think it justifies substituting the biblical reality for what you're actually living in. But if it works for you, that's great. I try not to push people hard either.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I'm not actively atagonistic to you to the point where I will argue against anything you say.
My question to you is this.
You have no evidence or good reason to make anyone believe in your faith in god. So why do you keep posting here? What are you trying to prove? Obviously you haven't proved anything to us yet. So I'm wondering why you keep coming back.
To tell us about jesus?
Most of us grew up in church. We can say the lord's prayer from memory. We've heard all this preaching ad nauseum. You've said nothing new to us at all. This is an old message that we've heard a thousand times. Go read the bible or something and leave us alone if you can't bring anything new to us.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Watcher,
You are in the same category as Herod on that. Herod once feared John and was moved by his message. Later he was capable of leading his soldiers in mocking his Maker. He made a wrong turn at the point of applying the truth when it was lighting the way. Later the message was a thunder rumbling of his own foundation failure as a man, his weakness in not giving up what he knew he shouldn't have, as his true friend John told him.
I would like to ask you what you have faith in - in your heart of hearts.
Mephibosheth (Selah)
The difference here is that I have no fear of you or your message, Meph. Nor am I moved by it. Nor do I believe I can mock something that does not exist.
I have faith that if humanity can pull itself out of it's primitive beliefs and superstitions then we can spread throughout the stars. We can do that or we can sit on this planet sacrificing goats to imaginary creatures and slaughtering each other.
I choose the stars.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_7j32zgJNv
Watcher,
Actually, it's as if something got changed in my link to YouTube. It's not as I had it copied down here. I might have made a mistake? Here it is:
You Tube / SEARCH: "He's My King" Lockridge
(I'll try to type it again) http.//www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2it5djkwUI
http.//www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2it5jkwUI
Watcher,
There is a good story about a "watcher" in 2 Kings 7. Because of his unbelief he "watched" but he didn't partake. He was trampled in the gate.
Mephibosheth (leper partaker)
Yeah. Don't try to make too many connections to my online handle "watcher" there, Meph. It's just a variation of "observer" that my sister-in-law called me in a poem a long ass time ago.
You keep comparing me to some unbeliever that has never been a christian. Don't forget I was raised in church and was a christian for the first 30 years of my life.
You have utterly failed to even give me a half-ass reason to reassess my opinion on this christianity thing. My heart isn't closed. My mind is open. Unlike yours.
You have nothing to show me that I can see worth considering. I'm done with you.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Subtle difference - the "watcher" in 2 Kings 7 refused to partake of tangible items (spoils of war resulting from God deceiving the Arameans).
What real (tangible, substantive) things do you partake of from God?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Watcher,
I understood you were a Christian. And the reason you aren't now is God and Christ didn't treat your ego right. Yeah, I don't have anything to impress you.
The reasons I have been trying to give you are not scientific I know. Mine have been more like the lepers in the 2 Kings 7 story that were certain they had found food and freedom and had good news to give at the gate.
I understand I think - your heart and mind is open/ and you are "done" with me.
Unlike mine.
Mephibosheth
JCG,
You really didn't read that story did you. And you guys try to present yourselves as guided by reason.
You simply prove again that anything can be twisted if the desire is there.
Mephibosheth
Watcher,
Maybe you treated your faith in Christ as a science and never experienced the power of it.
Maybe you were like a chemist trying to analyze the bread of life.
Maybe you were one to theorize rather than a man of action, putting the simplicity of the gospel, the "foolishness of God" (which is wiser than the wisdom of men) to the test.
Maybe you have been "inoculated" with a weak strain of Christianity and now your antagonism is misdirected at a counterfeit.
Maybe your sense of freedom is now the sense of having no rudder or anchor. If so, how will that work in the storms of life? How will that bring you to port?
Bitterness can be self - deceptive and misdirected. A person can think he is mad at his father's religion, when he actually has unresolved issues with his father for instance.
Bitterness can be a thorny patch to find truth in. Plus, when a false state of pride is fed with a chorus of "Amens" and the congregation is led in "Let's Twist Again like we did in the last post", it takes a spark of faith in the Man of Men, the One who carried the thorns to the top of the hill for you to make any movement toward learning anything different than where you are double parked.
And yet, I don't think I have heard a happy thing out of you. Was there a happy thing I missed? I don't get a sense of fulfillment from the tone of your posts. Or do only those who share your disdain for God get to see your happy side? And how do you know who's "in" versus who's "out"? Is there a secret sign? Or can you just tell if somebody is happy or kind or at peace?
So your answer to me is "done with you" - and that's too much of an honor because you have told me that's the same thing you did with Jesus. And I think you also did a little verbal spitting, which again is too much honor for this desperate leper, who came to The Lord hesitating, not thinking he would be welcome, but desperate still.
And I without doubt found real food and real drink. And I would share that with a scientist.
Mephibosheth (μπορεί η αυγή του φωτός να σπάσει στην καρδιά σα&sigmaf