what faith you
Posted on: September 6, 2007 - 7:57pm
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what faith you
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it.
I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple.
I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me.
Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
Wow, Watcher said that he was going to ignore you...and he has. ( I like that )
I read the story, did you? What part did I get wrong? A besieging army was tricked by God with an auditory illusion. They left their stuff behind and Israel plundered the camp. Spoils of war.
Or did you just cherry pick the part you wanted Watcher to see?
Answer my question now?
I've never portrayed myself as anything other than a person with a lot of questions who happens to agree with a lot of what's on this site. I'm not a guardian of anything except my own tenuous mental well-being (much of which was stolen by Christianity and its condescending followers).
I leave the pretending to the christians who think they're better than other humans because they have a belief in the sky daddy. Especially those who claim a veneer of humility to mask their hubris.
Figure out who I'm talking about yet (cripple at the King's table) or do you need a mirror?
Edits: many - I can't spell well when responding to sanctimony.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Actually I don't think this is the first time that I've stated that I was going to start ignoring him. Sometimes I get bored and come back because this thread never seems to die.
If this thread is still going on a month from now I may get bored enough to come back.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
JCG,
Glad you're reading the Word of God.
The state of "pride" is actually the pretend state. Think what the most knowledgeable man (other than Jesus) knew compared to what there is to know. You would run out of zeros after the decimal and before the 1 (or space) - what does that say about anybody that thinks they know something.
I've said this before - if a man jumped on stage in the middle of a play he had never seen and said he knew exactly what all was going on--that would make worlds better sense than somebody who thinks he knows what's what with this world and the God that created it. Thus we need the Word of God to light our way.
2 Kings 7 The king was upset about the sore straits Samaria (Israel) was in. It wasn't because of wrong politics by the way they were in this shape, but because things weren't right between them and God.
The king wanted to blame Elisha and went to look him in the face. Elisha said to the king's nobleman that in (only) 24 hours everything would be food fine. The nobleman made a smart remark of unbelief about that promise, to which Elisha answered just as quick that he (the nobleman) "would see it but not eat it".
Unbelief is really a great sin. ...convict them of sin, "because they don't believe in the Son". The noble clothed the statement in flowery deceit, "could even God do such a GREAT thing if He opened the heavens?" After creating the world in 6 days why would we think anything too fast for God or limit Him to one way (which He didn't use by the way)?
The punishment of unbelief is to see it but not enjoy it. Even in this life you can have a lot of wealth around you and not enjoy it. Outward riches don't make up for inward poverty.
The army was scared off with the noise or perception of horses and chariots. The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous is bold as a lion.
The visible or invisible world are either comfortable or dreadful to men depending on whether they are at peace with God or at war with Him.
The city of Samaria was starving yet food was near. They thought they were captives, but really they could be free for the taking. Nobody in the city was even taking a look to see if God was doing something about His promise by Elisha.
God has chosen the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty. The truth was discovered by 4 lepers - they were desperate. The lepers weren't ones to theorize - they took action. They would rather die once with hope by the sword than a thousand times by famine.
It's no surprise the lepers feast themselves when they get there. But if they had gotten comfortable and sang "cum by yah" and hadn't gone to tell the good news that would have been barbaric (thus the answer to the question, "why am I here).
When they went they had conviction - they were full. I am too. You don't need to starve. You don't need to be held captive. It's there for the taking in Christ. I'm full and fully qualified to tell you.
Mephibosheth (BURPPPP!!)
Yep.
Pride is pretending and I wish you'd stop.
That's what annoys me about so many theists - they pretend that the belief in their god protects them from being as messed up as the rest of the planet. In fact, it is the root cause of most of the things that mess up the planet.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG, (king or nobleman?)
Don't you see how you are repeating history playing the part of the king or nobleman blaming Elisha and thus God for your problems? Elisha was good (like salt) for Israel. The king wanted to blame God's messenger for his own trouble rather than take responsibility for his own faithlessness and its results.
Though you dress yourself in misrepresentations of believers there are several holes in your deceptive cloak. I've told you where I came from; however, you aren't capable of believing me either. And, if I remember right, you take it home with you too.
Mephibosheth (leper, remember?)
PS What doesn't annoy you?
Honesty.
Something you don't seem to have.
(yes, I read the whole thing)
I'm not annoyed by God (don't know for sure he exists but highly doubt it).
All of my current annoyance is at you and those who claim to be superior to the rest of humanity only because they believe in the sky-father. Quit using how humble you (suposedly) are as a source of self-pride and contempt for the rest of us.
So unless you're claiming to be God, I'm not annoyed at God.
Somehow, I don't imagine Mephibosheth hobbling around Jerusalem telling the populace, "I'm better than you because I eat at the King's table." I wish you'd follow that lead.
You came in pompous and I leave you to it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yessir, God made all that great stuff. He sure is a swell guy for doing that.
He also created Lucifer and all the fallen angels knowing in advance all the trouble they would cause. Yep God's just a swell guy. Thank you God.
JCG,
There's always a chance that a guy could fool himself, so I appreciate you mentioning that you have the impression I am pompous. If I am pompous I certainly want to change it, because Jesus isn't pompous.
I admit I have tried to jazz a few posts up role playing Mephibosheth, but I don't think I'm pompous. I hope you will point out to me how I am or what you see that I don't, but I would like to reason with you on this question.
First, I wonder if you get that impression because I am sure of What and Who I believe. I wonder if you get that "feeling" from the "wake of decision" going by you. Maybe my decision is a threat to your stagnant indecision?
Here's another aspect I would present to you. I fear God and am secure in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but I may not have the "fear of man" that you would like to see - something again that you might mistake for your concept of "humility"?
Like the proverb says, "The fear of man lays a snare but he who trusts in the Lord is safe" - if I understand what God wants I don't have to be concerned about men's ideas that are contrary to God's - polite, yes; concerned, no.
That unconcern due to the authority of the Scriptures over men's ideas I think you could mistake for pomp - but it's just certainty that God's Word is true.
Here's another reason I would present to you that I don't think I am "pompous". If I was interested in "keeping up appearances", why would I let it be known that I struggled with bipolar and was the "fool of fools" when the King of Kings accepted me? Wouldn't I want to keep that hidden so I could keep up my proud front? Would I reveal that?
Would I be a true friend if I knew I have something great to share but didn't offer it, even knowing that many would mock and scoff and not receive it - just as I saw happen to my Master? Would I be a true friend if I applauded poor and inexcusable performance? Faithful are the wounds of a friend - profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
I guess the situation doesn't lend itself to humor, so your point is well taken with my attempts there - I mean since communication is strained anyway best not try to push humor. I have no doubt crossed the line there, playing the fool, "parading humility" - an attempt at humor, sorry about that. I don't think we are understanding each other well enough for humor, so your point is well taken there.
I do have good news to share. Life in Jesus is great! You can have a spiritual relationship with the Living Word. It is totally satisfying, totally anchoring, totally residual joy. The troubles are just little white caps up on top. And I totally recommend it. For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. For you it could happen or be restored even today.
Mephibosheth (no joke)
Dear Prozac,
He also made Kelly.
Mephibosheth
Never think that somebody can't understand the Gospel. A person might say, "I'm not a scholar, so I can't understand the Gospel". The fact is this: a lot of people can't understand the Gospel BECAUSE they are scholars.
You and I are sinners and if we trust in the Lord Jesus He is our Savior. The result will be that we will know we are saved because God tells us we are. We love God Who we dreaded before. We naturally ask what we can do to please Him.
So we give up our sins and are motivated by love - which is the work of the Holy Spirit. We strive for holiness. This is simple enough for a child to understand.
Mephibosheth
Hi again. Needed a bit of a break so I didn't post in more frustration.
You wanted an example of where you're being pompous? Look no further than this post.
You claim that I am in stagnant indecision because I'm faced with you being so secure in what you believe. It comes off as "Since you don't believe my way, you've never made a proper decision about your beliefs." That is about as pompous as it gets.
I wish you had the same fear of man as you do the fear of God. I interpret that fear as "a healthy respect". I used to have that respect for God until I read in his word how reprehensible his behaviors were and saw how reprehensible they still are (as reflected by those who claim to serve him). I have a hard time seeing how people who have followed all the Biblical requirements to be a Christian can have contempt for their fellow humans. That attitude, I think, stems more from the safety of Pauline Christianity (all you have to do is believe in Jesus and good things happen) than what useful things you find in the Gospels (many of which were being followed by civilizations that were old when the Hebrews were young). What Jesus said that was radical (pray for those who persecute you, turn the other cheek, pull the beam from your own eye before you pull the mote from your brother's eye) gets ignored.
I never accused you of putting up a front - I said you were overly proud of your humility. You're saying, "Look at what a good Christian I am! See the way I prostrate myself before God! No one can out-humble me!"
As for true friendship, would a true friend sell slavery in the guise of freedom? That's a little (ok a lot) more dishonesty than I expect from a friend.
I'm glad you have a "spiritual relationship" with your Jesus I used to be able to do the "invisible friend" thing well as a child. I'm getting better at it as an actor. I also know when to get off the stage.
I just wish you could define "spirit" and explain how you can have a relationship without any interaction. I guess it does make it easier - you make a decision and say God gave it to you if it works the way to your advantage.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG,
I appreciate your answer though I'm not confident I can change your mind.
I didn't mean to determine you were in indecision, I just meant to ask that question. I didn't know. It's hard to get acquainted through these things.
There is a difference in the way we see things and it is fundamental as "this is a football". Communication is a challenge from both sides and I appreciate your effort and frankness. Frankness is one thing I appreciate on this website.
I don't have contempt for my fellow humans. I hope you believe that. It seems that there has to be some level of faith between humans in order to have a discussion. If you think I am lying at every step let me know. I haven't had a problem believing you, I just see things differently.
One thing I see totally differently than you that keeps coming up is Paul's perspective and Jesus' perspective. If you accept what the Scripture says, (you said you don't, but if you did) Paul wasn't writing anything other than what the Holy Spirit was moving him to write, which was the Spirit of Jesus and God - all One. Jesus lived the written Word. The same Spirit was working in Paul.
The Scripture defines the spirit of man as the "lamp" with which he sees the inside things of man.
The Scripture (one thing about spirit) is "who knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit which is in him?" Well, the Holy Spirit knows the thoughts of God and makes them known to us. He lives in our spirit.
Here is the way I would describe man's spirit. Just like we have a outward body, we have a comparable inside spirit. It is comparable to the outer body in more ways than I know. It gets hungry, and the manna that comes down from heaven feeds it and keeps it hungry.
It has eyes and can see (faith).
It judges thoughts and can "smite" us. An example of that is when David cut off the corner of Saul's robe - his heart "smote" him.
The spirit inside man can be pretty dead. "In the day you eat of it you will die". Adam went on moving around, but he died to some degree spiritually because he lost his relationship with and the presence of God.
Jesus and the gospel and the Holy Spirit can convict man's heart, mind and spirit of sin and bring about Godly grief and the same Spirit comfort and open his spiritual eyes of faith to the Gospel, which can raise man from death to life.
Jesus used metaphors, because you can't really understand the spiritual things unless you are "born again" by the water and the Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus that. He said, I tell you, unless you are born again you will not see the kingdom of heaven. Paul talked more abstractly. An apostle referred to some of his writing as "hard to understand, therefore the ignorant twist it" (my paraphrase).
You have your impressions of what it is like. You say they go back to when you were a child? Did somebody perform some superstition on you? I say it that way because maybe you have never experienced being "born again" thus you have an impression of what you think it is like but you don't really know.
I say that not arrogantly, but because I would want to hear that if I was in that position. I don't know you that well, and don't know what your situation is.
Mephibosheth
I'm not sure how one can be a Christian and not have contempt for other humans. Christianity (if you look at the Bible) says everyone is worthless without God.
I've never been able to get my head around it. People believing they're worthless if they don't believe in the God they themselves created.
Paul took the law out of the picture for believers - no law, no sin. No sin, no need for forgiveness (let alone repentance). The Gospels tried to add repentance back in (to back up the pretty words with actions) but it didn't work as shown in I John 2:1
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
If you sin, just ask Jesus to forgive you and he will (lather, rinse, repeat).
You talked about Jesus using parables and metaphors because people couldn't understand the spiritual things. Shame that view contradicts the words of Jesus in Matthew 13:9-14:
"He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
Obfuscation doesn't seem to fit one who " came to seek and to save what was lost. (Luke 19:10)".
I had a feeling you'd pull a NTS on me. I followed all the rules as a child and an adult to be born again (more than once). Now I realize it was simply catharsis and the only one who could forgive me was me.
If I had listened to my Christian wife and the Christian counselors (the Bible is a really crappy psychology book), I would have been buffaloed into committing myself into a mental institution. they did their level best to convince me that I was a homicidal maniac that could go off at any time. The only mistake they made (on their part) was suggesting that I get meds. The meds helped me see through the BS and realize that trying to live according to the pictures of God the churches paint (all drawn from the same Biblical palette) was what was sapping my mental health.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I will conceed that being an atheist, or a theist requires great faith.
My faith is based on provable evidence, while yours is based on whatever superstition happens to be popular at the time, or in your culture.
P.S. forget throwing quotes, I get bored far too easily, and would only skip over them.....No pictures...LOL
Jonasnz1,
Don't have any quotes. One thing that jumps at me from your post is the idea of "getting bored easily". That was my MO for a lot of life.
Have you read Ecclesiastes? I'm not trying to push you into doing that, but I see that as a spiritual experiment by a unique experimenter. I spiritually feel I have gone through a similar experiment and come to the same conclusion.
I have questions about how you can "prove" atheism using materials that have already been delivered to the job. How do you "prove" how the materials for the experiment were delivered xxxx years ago? Isn't there a gulf that you can look across but not see? Is that where faith kicks in?
MP
JCG,
I'm going to try to answer your "I don't see how one can be a Christian and..." with the metaphor of Nicodemus coming to Jesus by night. He had knowledge of the Scriptures and seemed ready to offer Jesus the nod as "having something?" when Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again you can't see the Kingdom of Heaven". He would have to give up what he thought was knowledge and enter spiritual primary.
Then Jesus brought up Moses lifting up the brass serpent - when people were healed by looking at what bit them.
Science uses the symbol for medicine. Science uses the disease for the serum - a little of the problem for the solution.
The way you are born again is to be crucified with Christ. You look at death, the death of Christ through the eyes of faith - it solves the problem of death.
However, it's not a matter of a man "changing opinions" for another set of opinions. It's a total transformation done by the work of the Holy Spirit.
How? Jesus addressed that. It's like the wind. You see the evidence of it, but you don't know how it comes or where it goes. It's mysterious.
Repentance is one evidence of its work. Another is prayer. New desires come from the new man born anew. It's the work of God, not a result of the desire of the flesh or the desires of man.
Once you "die with Christ" - what could be more helpless than a dead man - looking for the promise of life from God. We die with Christ in faith and are raised with Christ to new life.
I don't know if this happened to you, but you would have to desire and seek it from God.
From your post: "I'm not sure how..." "I've never been able..." / confusion about Paul/ question why parables?
You don't have contempt for people without God if you have the attitude of Christ who died for people without God. When you see how much Christ is worth to you the self worth thing won't be a problem.
My understanding is the parables were so the people could be led to be born again then they COULD understand - not to keep the Gospel from them.
As to Paul "allowing sin through grace" - Paul mentions this "shall I sin that grace may abound" - as being a perversion of grace. He condemns it.
These are all things that would fall into place if you are "born from above". I can't do that for you, wish I could. The required thing is however "you MUST be born again". Requirement first - then hoped for after.
Mephibosheth ( ____________ )
You have a couple of old, often refuted arguments in here.
The "you have to believe before you believe" argument, the "you can't see the wind" argument. I will go into them if you wish but others have done so much better than I.
Why is it that the people in death cults assume that those who aren't in them are afraid of death? Death holds no terror for me as I don't have the fear of hell that rules your life. I don't need to reinforce a love of death by watching/reading about the Jesus character getting snuffed.
I also wish theists qould quit selling themselves short. They change opinions about how to act for their own benefit. Instead of giving themselves credit for what they did. they ascribe it to a concept that they can't adequately describe. You do the repenting - you do the praying - you answer your prayers. Why let God have the credit for your work?
Now for what you took on in my post:
If I looked at what Christ was worth to me...? Somehow, I don't see how examining the non-sacrifice the Jesus character made for me is going to boost my self-worth, If Christians acted like Jesus actually did something for them (more than the Easter glorying in the Snuffing of the Christ), it might be a little more convincing. As it is, most "Christians" take it less seriously than I do. The only difference - I've stopped lying to myself about it.
As for Paul, you quoted part of Romans 6:1-2. Unfortunately, for you, he spent the majority of Romans 4 contradicting it. Check it out.
Your view of the parables stand opposite of the words of your Jesus - enough said.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG,
I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience with Christianity.
My only problem this week was a deep splinter I got Tuesday on the job on the inside of a finger on my right hand. I immediately tried to get it out with "uncle Bill's sliver gripper", but was slightly less interested than the pain involved.
By Wednesday my whole hand was hurting and I scheduled surgery (me the surgeon) for Thursday morning. Guided by pain I came face to face again with the fortified location and stopped short with only partial success.
By Thursday my hand really hurt and I wore gloves part of the day to protect it. It was becoming evident it was "it or me", and I was getting more determined. Friday morning I went back in with a extreemly sharp pointed knife.
I came face to face with the location of the splinter, the "pain fortress" and - for the joy set before me - I plunged the knife deep into the fortress. The dark blood flowed and relief and healing coursed through my finger, hand and arm.
The finger is at peace now and getting along well with the rest of the fingers and the hand well. I have forgotten the pain. Actually, every time I move my hand I'm reminded what a good investment it was.
I'm glad the knife was available and the pain guided me to the location. I'm also glad the blood was there to handle the details - I'm a pretty crude surgeon and need a lot of cleaning up after.
It wasn't rocket science with the blood's healing qualities. I don't know how that works, but fortunately I don't have to. I'm just enjoying it.
Mephibosheth (blood healing and splinter free, thankfully)
What does this have to do with anything we were disciuusing? It reminds me of something written while the author was high.
Or are you just trying to dazzle me with more "The facts aren't on my side but God is great" BS?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Never mind these heathens, Mephibosheth. Their ability to understand parables is lacking.
Here's what it means, jcgadfly:
It means if anyone pains you, take a knife to them. With joy set before you, drive it deep into their "fortress" (their heart), and let the healing blood flow over you. Drink of their blood, as it has healing powers. It will handle the details. Oh, and wear gloves as you do it. No fingerprints that way.
Also, you should enjoy that which you don't understand. It'll work whether you understand it or not. It'll work better the less you understand it. I'm not sure if the same is true of non-healing-powers things, like infection. So I don't know what that means if you get a splinter while cleaning a deer, and you only have your hunting knife, if knowing less about infection makes the infection worse, or better. That's one of the Mysteries.
Sorry, Mephibosheth. These guys can be dense some times.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Nigel, you're a nasty, NASTY man.
Thanks for the laugh.
JCG,
You see the problem we are having communicating? I was letting you get to know me better with a true story that happened exactly as described.
So what is the problem?
Mephibosheth
(to jcgadfly, not to me):
Mephibosheth,
Please forgive me for my joke at your expense. I really didn't mean it cruely, though I realize it might seem that way.
I honestly and truly appreciate true faith, faith that needs no rationalisation, faith that finds God in everything. I can't share in that faith, as I don't see God anywhere, nor can I see room for Him in my universe. I truly do understand honest faith, though.
I find your perseverance refreshing. You don't try to rationalize, or use science against itself. You just believe. You know from whence your faith comes, and that is your strength. And that is good.
Again, I cannot share that faith. My world is that of the observable, the concrete, the provable. And though it seems I was mocking your faith, I really wasn't. I just thought it seemed a little... tense here. I wanted to make a joke.
I can't apologize, because I think it was funny. But I do wish you to know, I enjoyed your story. It's these tiny things in life that make us realize exactly where we stand in the thick of things, among our Gods or our silences.
Though I don't believe in Him, I wish this: Go with God. He is yours as He can never be mine. I ask only one thing (and it is truly asking, not demanding, or hoping in exchange): remember, we are all in this together, Christian and Muslim and atheist and Ba'hai and what-have-you. We're all in this together.
I'm going to write something entirely different in just a moment. I just wanted to keep the two things separate.
- Tony
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
I was trying to figure out how it connected to what we were discussing before. I didn't know if I was to connect how good you think Christianity is to it. I didn't realize you were just sharing a story.
Unless you're giving credit to the deity for the surgery you performed...or you're comparing the shedding of your blood and the healing process you began afterward to the blood your Jesus supposedly shed for my healing. Either is a reach.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Hey, my pleasure.
I really didn't mean to be nasty. I didn't realize how nasty it was until I re-read it. I was just trying to be funny, which is the Most Important Thing In The world. I'm really a nice guy. I mean it. Quit laughing at me.
It's just the whole "parables of God" thing over the last few pages. It's so strange how so many different interpretations happen over the parables. Or even the non-parables. It's like the Bible was written so it could be interpreted in so many different ways. And then, people go out of their way to interpret it to match their own personality, or selfish goals, or even just to read into it what they are themselves.
And then Christians get together, and discuss their various interpretations. Then come the accusations, the incriminations, the molesting of the alter boys, and BAM! You've got an all-out split, and a new church has to be built, and half the parishoners go one way, and the other half go back to the old church and clean up the blood and semen and holy water. Then your (soon-to-be) ex-wife calls, and tells you she wants the Explorer, and you can have the Jetta, but you better not talk to the kids.
At least, that's how it happened with me.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Tony the bold,
I thought it was funny too. And actually I think we saw the elephant there for a second at least. And there was nothing to apologize for - especially a fake one.
Tony, I have a serious question. Do you think your atheistic position means you have more or less faith in your fellow man? Because it seems like it affects communicating big time.
mephibosheth
Communication is difficult even among people with common backgrounds and beliefs, talking face-to-face, where all the standard non-verbal hints help guide each participant. Now, our different backgrounds affect our communication, that's absolutely true. There are certain modes that Christians sometimes use while communicating. I'm not sure atheists have analogues to those modes.
For instance, Christians use rhetoric much more often than atheists, I believe. This is partly because Christians are often trained in rhetoric during the one regular and frequent social event: church. Contrast that to many atheists, who are trained either professionally or by interest in the sciences. We tend to lecture. (Like I'm doing right now.) This can be... tedious sometimes. But, many atheists tend to value precision and clarity.
Other atheists tend to be snide, snippy, and downright rude if they think you are being intentionally obtuse. (I am one of those.) Others take that attitude if you give even the slightest hint of intellectual laziness. This is a result of many things: in my experience, these atheists tend to be extremely intelligent, and have come to their non-belief through critical analysis and rigorous logic. They feel their position is unasailable, and anyone who attempts to assail it are automatically being intellectually lazy.
Keep in mind I'm trying to describe a group that's about as eclectic as it gets. The only thing that unites us is our lack of belief in God. Otherwise, our backgrounds are all over the place, from mysticism to logical positivism. (Though I do think this board tends to the latter.)
The key to any communication is finding the common ground from which to start. The key to successful communication is respect between all parties, as well as common ground. For a lot of atheists, it's hard to respect many modes of Christian communication. Parables are all well-and-good, but as I pointed out in my fun little way, they are open to interpretation. For the purposes of learning moral or theological lessons from a parable, that's great. But for a discussion of the validity of an assertion, they don't work at all. So, many atheists lose respect for the opposing viewpoint simply because of the modes of communication.
Now, I'm going to use an example of exactly what I mean:
There are actually two parts to that question. The first has to do with my faith in my fellow man (which I'll get to in just a moment). The second is about communication, which doesn't have anything to do with my faith in my fellow man. But, I think I know exactly what you mean. There's a whole world of questions in that first bit, all about world-view, and upbringing, and expectations, and whatnot, that all affect communication.
You've taken a shortcut to communication, one which seems natural to you. These sorts of shortcuts are deadly when communicating with folks of a different background, and different assumptions about life.
I can give you some tips for communicating with atheists, if you like. Keep in mind, I'm making sweeping generalisations about a group that is by nature eclectic and diverse and often eccentric. This won't work with everyone, but it should with with everyone that is worth engaging in conversation.
First, be very explicit about your goals. Never assume we understand what you are attempting to communicate. Spell it out as completely and simply as possible. Make sure to include your intent, if there is any intent. This means being honest with yourself, as well. If you are trying to proselytize, make sure to be explicit about it. We might not like it, but we're much more likely to accept it if you are honest and forward.
Second, use logic, not feelings or intuition or tales from the Bible. (That is, unless you are discussing a particular tale from the Bible. But even then, use logic, not the tale itself, as your core discussion.) Make sure your logical reasoning is geared explicitly to achieving your goal. This is more difficult than it sounds, because often you'll know exactly where you want to go, but the logic doesn't seem to take you there. This also means you should know the basic logical fallacies, such as straw-man, tautologies (circular reasoning, essentially), and whatnot.
Third, back up your logic with facts. Oh, and second-point-five: use facts as the basis for your logic. Make sure your facts are real, and make sure they aren't solely from a religious source. Using Behe to back up an argument on intelligent design is a bad idea. Now, you can discuss Behe and his ideas on irreducible complexity, but that is separate from a discussion of intelligent design. Also, make sure to include references to your facts, unless you are positive everyone will already know about them.
Fourth, develop a really thick skin. You seem to have that already, which is good.
Fifth, seriously examine critiques of your arguments. Learn why a particular assertion is a straw-man. Ask for help understanding, if you need. Folks here really are quite nice. Honestly.
Discussion among atheists, especially those who gravitate to sites like this, are intense, difficult, and full of stuff you won't know anything about. I've already learned more about metaphysics and epistemology than I ever thought I'd learn. It's amazing, the amount of intellectual power here. These folks are smart.
Although this site seems to focus on theism and atheism, it's really a site about rationality. As long as you are rational, and able to defend your assertions rationally, you will fit right in. I believe you can even get away with having a Christian faith, and as long as you admit that it is irrational, and you stick with rational discussions, you'll be fine. After all, we all of us, each and every one of us, hold irrational beliefs. Mine is that we will make it off this rock, and wander among the stars. (Not me, but some human in a thousand years, perhaps.)
And that brings me to your question.
I can't say that atheism itself gives me more faith in the human race. Although I attended Sunday school when I was younger, and have even attended church from time to time, I have never believed in God. In Sunday school, I was always the one questioning basic beliefs, like, "If God created the Universe, how did God get created?" That sort of thing. So, I really have nothing to compare my faith against.
I can say that I have great faith in the human race. We are dirty, and sloppy, and casually selfish. And that's just me. We as a species are also often cruel, and sometimes evil. We kill for no reason, murder because of emotion, steal from those who have even less than us, and often just botch the whole process of trying to get along.
But.
We've also sacrificed our own lives for those of others. We give of ourselves. We have created beauty to rival the greatest natural works. We have produced Bach and Beethoven, Paganini and Polk. We have Foo Fighers and the Gourds and KT Tunstall and the Black Keys and Radiohead. We have Matisse and van Gogh. And so on.
We have walked in airless space, and on the surface of the moon. That is a small feat, to be sure. But, in spite of our senseless wars and irrational beliefs and casual selfishness, we have still produced great works.
I don't know how atheism affects my faith in humanity. I can't compare my faith in humanity to that of others, because I don't know how most people feel. I have great faith that we will somehow survive. I believe that survival will mean more than just survival. I believe that more and more people will truly enjoy their lives, and enjoy contributing to the joy of others.
How's that for irrational?
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Tony the Bold,
I enjoyed the theme and liked and appreciated it. Communication is a interesting subject to me and a frustration. Like you said, there is baggage, there are moods, limitations without those thousand things you can't put your finger on that connect the dots face to face.
That's a tough order to fill as you have outlined it. Maybe there should be a RRSQ format for posting (partially joking).
The fact that I am trying to proselytize I thought was obvious and I don't like to think I'm insulting the guys I'm talking to boring you with the obvious. The reason I'm trying to proselytize is that I can't understand why anybody wouldn't want what I am enjoying in Christ if I can get it across as it is.
As a carpenter I have worked for three retired philosophy department chairs and have tried to proselytize every one of them - without any success by the way. We have had frank and unsanded discussions and still remained friends. We enjoyed each other's company. We've had good laughs and they have been great to work for. They liked the work. They didn't want any of the doctrine.
Thanks for your answer and I'll try to apply what I can.
Mephibosheth
I don't mean you have to do that with every post -- if your intent is to preach to all us unwashed, just say it once as you introduce yourself. That's enough. Then we know what your intent is. I think we all figured out your goal pretty early on; a lot of folks bailed right off. Others stayed. Me, I dip in and out, as I'm not interested in being converted, but you seem like a nice guy. Then, if you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread, and outline what you'd like to accomplish in that thread. Then stick to it. That's really all I meant.
There's really only one important piece of advice I can give. Don't try to be a missionary here. Don't try to explain why we should believe the Bible, nor even try to explain why you believe the Bible. That's a certain way to provoke argument rather than discourse, and close people's minds to all you have to say. I think many of us are willing to talk about the Bible, from what we believe to simply a discussion of various interpretations of a particular part.
I know what you have in Jesus. I was married (when I was much too young) to a very wonderful Christian woman. She was a Biblical literalist. I was an atheist. I studied physics, which included learning about a 14-billion-year-old universe. She believed the universe is 10,000 years old. Needless to say, we had some differences that interfered with our marriage.
One of the things that interfered with our marriage was other Christians. She and I had come to the conclusion that we loved each other, and that was enough. We understood each other, and although we would've liked it had we believed the same thing, she went out of her way to accommodate my lack of belief, and I went out of my way to be a complete jerk to her. (I was, as I said, quite young.) However, the few times she invited friends over for dinner, they invariably tried to convert me, then and there, in my own home.
We have a daughter. She's turns 20 next month, and is in college. She is very much like her mother in her beliefs. She and I get along quite well, and I try to talk to her about these sorts of things. Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes it's... not so easy. Because of communications.
Anyway, I have seen what Jesus means to those who follow Him.
It's getting late. I'm off to bed.
Take care. And have fun.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Tony the Bold,
There seems to be a fair comparison between the atheist clique here and cults in the respect that there are built in defense mechanisms to avoid intrusions of a different point of view.
Jesus was going around with his disciples saying some things they easily understood - other things they wouldn't understand for quite a while. They loved Him though, and had faith in Him which made them hang in there and keep trying to understand and bridge the gap.
However Jesus told the Pharisees the fact that they were of their father - the Devil - if they instead loved God they would love Him.
So Jesus couldn't get things across to them (Pharisees). He could do a miracle in front of them and they would say, "wow, look at that - before long the whole town is going to be following Him." They weren't wanting or trying to understand. They didn't have any faith in Him. They didn't love Him. He used metaphors and parables which made them think. One time I remember they were angry because they suspected He was referring to them in the parable.
It was there for them to get - wouldn't you call that "intellectual laziness?"
They were - in a trivia way - intelligent. They could wow you with intricate details of worthless ritual for instance. Their intelligence was a barrier they couldn't downsize and get through the needle of humility. They were the big losers.
Which brings me to this site. It really isn't a challenge to find something wrong with every statement and approach, sentence and argument. You can easily do that if you have no regard for the person making the approach - no faith in them, you know what I'm saying here. That's intellectually lazy if you ask me.
Now the question of how can God communicate with a man with no faith in Him. The lack of faith is a barrier. How do you get the faith - I don't know. I think I understand the Bible to say it is a gift from God. Jesus said, "nobody comes to me unless the Father draws him".
If, however, for some reason a man decided he wanted the gift and started asking - like a arrow at a venture - I'm confident God would give him the gift.
Mephibosheth
Ah. Here is the understanding of the faith/communication equation. Thank you.
I do have faith in you. I believe I understand much of what you say. And though I have never truly believed in God, I have known many how have, and many who still do. I have faith in them, as well.
You are right that many of us have a defensive mechanism against belief. It's not the same mechanism for each person, either. For some, it is the deep roots in the observable, the empirical. For others, it is a dislike of the harm that religion has done. (I know: people did the harm, not religion.) For still others, it is a belief in a God different from the Christian or Muslim God.
I'm of the empirical camp. I can't believe in anything that isn't proven to me. Not proven as in, "God has proven His love," but proven as in, "These are the predictions of this theory, and here are the experimental results. You can check them yourself, if you so desire." The results of scientific inquiry have proven it more effective at discerning the universe than any other, and so I accept it as a learning device. And so far, there hasn't been any indication of God.
The crux of my belief is in its congruency with observation. I believe the universe is objective, observable, consistent, and coherent. I believe we can observe the facets of the universe and come to logical conclusions about the nature of the universe. I believe that is the only truth in which we can believe with any degree of assurance; and even that is contingent on our understanding. As our understanding grows, our perceptions may shift from time to time, and the old knowledge is put in a different light. But, that is the only knowledge of which I can be sure, however contingent it may be.
To balance that, I also know there are sensations we are unable to press into science's service. Our perceptions of love, anger, joy, and hope are all unmeasured as of yet. (Oh, I believe there will be some scientist some day without poetry in his heart, who will lay down an algebra of emotion. I'm glad I will not see that day.) I know these sensations are real, as I have experienced them. They are subjective to me, experienced only by me. Others have experienced sensations they also call love, and anger, and joy, and hope. I imagine they are similar in most ways to the sensations I have experienced and called by these names. In the end, they are subjective, and no description can give them life outside my own experience.
I also know that you have likewise experienced the sensation of God.
I have not.
I have, at various times in my life, tried to believe in God. From the worst point of my life, to the best point, I have tried to believe. When I was married the first time, to the Christian woman, I prayed that I might find God. Not so much for my sake, but so I could be the husband she really wanted. I wanted to believe with her. Our daughter was raised Christian, and is today a very thoughtful, very devout Christian. I have wished I could believe as she does.
But I can't. And for the most part, I don't want to. Though I wish I could be closer to my daughter in belief, I know that I would really be betraying myself, my own beliefs.
I could even give you all the non-empirical reasons I don't believe in God. None of it would make much sense, though. The only bit I can say is, I don't see the need for God in our universe. I don't see the need for Him in my life.
Is it a defensive measure? I don't believe so. It might be. I don't think I'm actively resistant to learning new ideas, to hearing new thoughts, or even discussing opposing points of view in a non-confrontational, mutually-respectful way. Sometimes I can be a jerk, especially if I'm trying to be funny, but I don't really go out of my way to be mean to people who believe differently. That is, unless they are intentionally obtuse, and really wish to argue, rather than discuss. (I mention this not because I believe you to be such a person, but because the evidence is all over a couple of threads. I couldn't deny I'm a jerk sometimes.)
How about you? What are your defensive measures that help you protect your beliefs from invasion? What makes them substantially different from my defensive measures?
Do you believe that Christ's love is so self-evident, I would believe in him if I had no defensive measures?
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Tony the Bold,
I appreciate your answer. I can't deny I am a jerk sometimes as well. I have a strong memory of a cartoon where the girl said, "I feel terrible about myself as a person too, but do you really think that's enough to build a relationship on". I guess us both being a jerk won't help me proselytize you either. So there's my stated purpose.
Tony it's a mystery to me why exactly or how the faith in God thing opened up to me. It was pretty dramatic. I was a pretty estranged person and started reading the Bible alone in my dorm room. I guess it seemed like something was happening behind the "green door" (remember the song?) and I was wondering what it was.
I had been reading for some time then came to a passage that exposed something in my life that struck terror and at the same time shaped a urgent determination to - you know what, be "born again". I'm not sure if I was "born again" at the moment of terror or that night buried in believer's baptism - I might as well not try to change the terms, you'll see it if I do.
So in several ways I am a mystery to myself on the faith thing. I don't know why, for instance, I immediately locked on to the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. I couldn't get enough of them. As I've mentioned I consider Ecclesiastes a spiritual scientific experiment.
There is a doctrine in the Bible that I shy away from (a weakness) called "election" - one side of it is that God chooses whoever He wants to reveal the Gospel to. I can't approach any person as if he is one of the non elect. I'm studying Manasseh now - the wicked 55 year king that God forgave in 2 Chronicles 33. Looking at him how would you ever know he would become a monument to God's mercy.
As to my defenses, not bragging, but I'm pretty transparent. Part of it is the product of deep resolution of every wound of conscience. The people I met in the mental ward all seemed to be "stuck" on some unresolved thing, and you would usually hear about it within 5 minutes - "a drunk ran over my grandson" or, "my dad molested me", etc. Though they tried to eliminate conscience - very unprofessional and outside their realm telling me to "get rid of your Bible" - I have defense mechanisms against the health industry. I sew up my own finger. I would rather die than undergo surgery. I think they make money on the body's ability to heal itself.
In the spiritual war I guard my heart diligently. I aim to take every thought captive - one at a time - and check it out as to whether it agrees with Jesus' Words, attitudes, example, purity. I have worked on this for 45 years. This is my defense on my marriage - I guard my heart. It may sound corny but it's true.
When I get lazy in my spiritual ambition and lax I fall back into legalism - trying to earn my own salvation - which is its own discipline, a very dismal pursuit. When I am on top of my game, totally trusting in Jesus, totally trying to glorify Him not me, my spiritual eyes and thoughts focused on Him I am getting somewhere then and walking by faith, growing. This is my experience of what is called sanctification by the Holy Spirit. It's like your personal trainer - necessarily strict in discipline.
I don't have defense mechanisms for discussing anything with you or anybody on this forum or people I know - that I know of. If I do and you see them be sure and point them out. I want to know about them. I was there, now I'm here. This is worlds better. I have passion to get it across, bridge the gap.
Mephibosheth
Thanks, Sir. I do appreciate the candor.
I don't have a lot to say in response. My specific history with faith is filled with people like you, people who truly and honestly love God. Some are content to talk about it when I ask, and others have witnessed to me. In every case, they have been kind and open.
I will give Ecclesiastes a read tonight, so that we might have something to talk about. That is, if I can find my Bible. (I have about 30 boxes of books that haven't been unpacked yet. And I've lived here 3 years. Sad. Of course, the other twenty boxes are unpacked.)
Have you ever read Loren Eiseley? The Immense Journey and Night Country are two of my favorite books of all time. I mention him only because I think you might like him. He was a naturalist, and perhaps even an atheist (though I don't know for sure), but his writing is quiet and peaceful and reflective and quite spiritual, very much like your own style. And his subject matter is fascinating. I don't know if you're a young-earth creationist or not, but even if you are, his discussion of the history of humanity, and life in general, is very thought-provoking. He doesn't say anything new, but that's not his point. Most of the essays are about his own quests, and are personal, rather than scientific.
This isn't a veiled attempt to convert you. I just think you might like him.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Tony,
I never heard of the guy or the book but I have them both ordered.
The age of the earth doesn't concern me actually. A similar thing is the question of "what's the program at the end of time?" I don't figure I need a hand in any of that.
I couldn't find a place to read these online, but you could easily read Ecclesiastes online. I prefer RSV for Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. It's a little harder to find but it's there.
Mephibosheth
JCG,
I heard a story about a lady who was afraid to cross a certain bridge - she thought it wouldn't hold her - even though she could sit and watch big trucks weighing tons more go across she was afraid it wouldn't work for her.
There was a king in Israel named Manasseh who took the throne at the age of twelve when his dad (king Hezekiah) died. His goal was to see how big a jerk he could be - how much he could stick his finger in God's eye.
Possibly he thought when he was being blasphemous and God wasn't reacting that proved there wasn't a God?
He restored idol worship - even imported a idol and set it up in the temple. He passed his children through the fire of the brass Moloch - ramming his religion down their throats. It is said he had Isaiah sawed in two (true?). Scripture says he filled the city with blood. He tried to get as close to the devil as he could - using witchcraft and sorcery. He worked at it at day and planned more at night.
It was like a person on drugs - it took more and more to satisfy - though they didn't and don't. The exciting thing though was pushing the line further and further each day - like the shock factor in movies or here on RRSQ - something new, something more bold.
This went on for quite a while because he was king 55 years.
Then God had the king of Assyria come and capture him and put him in a dungeon hole with only bread and vinegar to sustain him.
He humbled himself and started praying to God. I imagine Satan whispered, "It's no use for you, Manasseh - you're too far gone". But God forgave him. The Assyrian king - for some reason - restored him to his throne.
Then, Manasseh knew Jehovah was God.
Mephibosheth
RRSQ,
Like Jesus told Nicodemus you can't really KNOW what it's like to be "born again" until it happens to you. It's not a case of changing from one set of opinions to another - it's a transformation done by God. Since Nicodemus couldn't understand, "see", the Kingdom of God without being born again Jesus used metaphors to help.
Does the butterfly remember when he was a worm? Did the worm think he would wake up to flight?
We are called to be united with Jesus in a death like His.
He was really dead - the Roman soldier made sure of this with the spear. We really die to sin. We don't want to sin any more. We hate sin.
It was a voluntary death - no one took His life from Him. We enter into His death voluntarily.
It's a public death. If there is no visible change there has been no invisible change.
It's a violent death. We want to kill sin but sin doesn't die easy. If it dies it will die in Christ.
We are united with Him in a death like His and we are united with Him in a resurrection like His - which spoke turns first? God raises us up to new life. A new energy is at work in us. New desires emerge from the new heart. We have been raised to new life in Christ.
We have a new personal trainer in the Holy Spirit. We have a Commander, the King of Kings who fights with us and helps us take the land that is ours, defeating the old man of sin within us, and leading us, crossing over into full assurance and close communion with God.
There are three stages. Without Christ - that's misery and no - rudder wandering, no - anchor resting. It goes nowhere, it's despairing and discouraging. It's a broken well without water.
The second stage is "in Christ". This is paradise. We live in the palace, lit with the light of Christ, filled with the furniture of the knowledge of the Word of God, celebrated with the communion of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and his people. This is indescribable joy you can only know if you are united in a death like His and raised to Life in Him. I wish I could get it across. I'm confident every one would want it if I could.
It would be cruel if God invited us with this promise and He was kidding. It's no empty promise. Look at it as a scientific experiment, only in another realm, the spiritual realm. The sight you have to conduct this experiment is faith. The items in the lab are the promises of God.
Try them. See if they work. Remember this: It will never be the case that a man will be able to say, "I cried out to God, but He did not answer". That will never happen because it would be a dishonor to His Great Name.
No man in hell will ever be able to say, "I ask Christ to save me but He couldn't" without lying. Approach this question honestly RRSQ. Confront yourself in your heart of hearts in this great time of mercy. The gates of mercy are open wide.
Think of the horror of finally meeting the Satan who has deceived you into missing out on the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. It was at hand and you believed a lie. Don't let it happen. Accept Christ, your best friend, as Lord.
The last stage is "with Christ". The scripture tells us that man's imagination is not capable of a glimpse of what that will be like, when faith becomes sight.
mephibosheth
I do believe you heard that story. It sounds like one of those examples apologist like to make up to show how badly we stupid humans need faith.
"Just take a chance on God - he'll hold you up. If he doesn't, well, it was either his will to drop you or you just didn't have enough faith"
And I suppose Manasseh's troubles with Assyria were only due to his putting up a statue of Mrs. Yahweh in Yahweh's temple and had nothing to do with the political ambitions of the Assyrians.
You know, Manasseh is indeed a very good example of modern Christianity. They go to god only when they get themselves in difficult situations. Then they pray and the prayer focuses their minds so they can figure a way out of the situation. When the situation is resolved, they claim that god answered their prayer. Why shortchange yourselves like that?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
In other words, if you felt like I do, then you'd know what it feels like to feel like I do. Metaphor: That term used to describe something so silly that even a fundy can't swallow it whole.
Yes, according to some recent research into that very question... interesting article.
It always amazes me that this magnificent cosmos spanning supream being you slobber over couldn't figure out a better way to change his mind about the ultimate disposition of his own creations than to have his kid lynched.
Again, a little bit of absurdity. If he was REALLY dead he wouldn't have come back. It would be more accurate to say he got his ass kicked and then went home. (Sort of like all those nights I spent across the river in Louisianna as a kid)
Two words... Ted Haggard
So it was sort of suicide by Centurian?
Again... your god couldn't figure out a better way to accomplish his goals? What an asshole.
<snip preachy crap that left me with a distinct image of the writer actually drooling at the keyboard...>
Ya think he can help me tone up my glutes?
Sorry son, this is where you lost me. No despair, I have a purposeful and interesting life without superstition.
I snipped the rest of this crap because frankly, it all boiled down to the old promise of heaven and threat of hell garbage.
You have been weighed, measured and found wanting... you are dismissed.
LC >;-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
JCG,
I think you have identified the problem man has worshipping God as Jesus described to the woman at the well - in "spirit and truth". Man resists more than anything worshipping God with all the heart, soul, mind and spirit.
An example of this from the very start is Cain. God indicated sacrifice but Cain used style and self as a guide and it was not accepted.
Man isn't able to worship God with his whole heart and soul without the gift of God, again the "water I will give you that will well up to eternal life" (my paraphrase).
You are trying to go on and discuss a realm you are not in, because God hasn't given you the capability to have a living relationship with Him - because you haven't accepted Jesus and the Gospel. You haven't been "born anew" in Christ. This is a real thing and you look on but don't understand it yet you discuss it based on your impressions of it.
I'm sure God wants to give it to you if you humble yourself like Manasseh and come with the right attitude.
Mephibosheth
Did I miss something in my reading? I don't remember seeing God lay down specifics of sacrifice where Cain and Abel were concerned. I know that they offered sacrifices and God wasn't happy with Cain's but they never went into why. I've heard various reasons as to why Cain's sacrifice was refused but there is no Biblical support for any of them.
I still don't get the "I have to believe in god before I can really believe in god" idea you're bringing. I don't think I ever will.
I was "born again" according to the scriptures - what differences do you include in your approach?
I had the proper attitude (as taught by the churches I attended) as well. I considered myself worth nothing - living only for the privilege of serving god. Later, I realized that wrecking my mental and physical health to kiss the Divine Backside wasn't worth it.
Someday, I may be ready for a relationship with god again (anything's possible) but I simply won't do it if it means I have to sacrifice my sanity and my health like last time.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Louis_Cypher,
Thanks for your frank reply. I think you made it clear don't believe Jesus is the Son of God who died so those who believe in Him can have eternal life.
It's the greatest treasure there is. Sorry I couldn't get that across to you.
Mephibosheth
JCG,
There are different forms of refreshment. One man finds refreshment in doing what he wants to do.
Jesus wasn't like that. He found refreshment in doing what His Father had commissioned Him to do.
I have tried both. From my experience I am shortchanged when I try to be refreshed doing what I want to do rather than what He wants me to do.
When I do that successfully (and I'm not good at it) I am not only refreshed, but I find more of what I really want. It's a mysterious thing in practice but it has been the case again and again.
It's sort of like a scientific experiment - it can be done again with the same result. I know others who conduct the same experiment with similar success.
Mephibosheth
It is indeed repeated observation. You have a problem -> you pray -> your mind gets a handle on the problem -> you implement the solution.
God does nothing while you do all the work but you still give him the credit. Why?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG,
Let me ask you a serious question. How do you view mankind? Do you think man is basically good?
Mephibosheth
Mankind is mankind. Individuals perform good and bad actions (based in the benefits received from those actions or just experimentation).
What positive/negative qualities man has are learned, not innate.
Man is not inherently bad so we need a God to rule over us. Nor is Man inherently good - if he were, no one would suffer.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JCG,
I suppose your idea on that is as good as any - as far as polling man's ideas.
If Scripture is used as The Guide man is spiritually dead - fallen. Man is in a state spiritually that only God can bring to life with The Gift of Life in Jesus.
It's not a gift you can earn in any way, it's not payment for faith or anything. It's a total gift.
But it's the Gift of Gifts. It's the Gift that satisfies man's thirst, the gift that comprehends all other gifts. It's the gift of Life in Christ.
It's the gift that allows the very worship that man resists the most - the worship of spirit and truth - with man's whole heart, soul and mind focused on God in Christ.
It's the Water of Life that satisfies the thirst of man forever, not like earth's shallow wells that seem to satisfy for a time then you get undeceived and realize you're still thirsty.
mephibosheth (LG)
And we return to the reason why I left the faith. My wifem my pastor, and several counselors were telling me hat I'm not worth a damn without God. I read the Bible and see God telling me that I'm not worth a damn without him/
I finally got tired of people telling me I wasn't worth a damn.
Where do you get the idea that you hae to do nothing for this "gift" of salvation? Blind, unwavering obedience to a man-made book abot a man-made god is nothing?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin