what faith you
Posted on: September 6, 2007 - 7:57pm
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what faith you
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it.
I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple.
I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me.
Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
Interesting...
Here we have the two extremes.
There's one who thinks he and everyone else is God. Because of that belief, he claims to have a fulfilled life.
The other believes himself to be completely worthless without an invisible God pushing him through the day. Because of that belief, he claims to have a fulfilled life.
Both believe themselves to be right. Am i the only one confused here?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
If a god created the world and everything in it he seriously needs to take some classes in engineering. Our own human engineers, if they had the tools to create life, would not have included all these wasteful and sometimes even dangerous engineering flaws:
http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Meph will just blame that on the "Fall of Man" - you know that thing that God made happen so he could sacrifice Himself to Himself?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
And how could the Fall of Man be responsible for the engineering flaws of creatures that existed before Man, such as dinosaurs? Oh, wait. Dinosaurs existed at the same time as Man and Christians were, in fact, riding them around like war horses, right?
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
I don't know whether Meph will go that far. But he certainly won't blame God for anything.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"There's one who thinks he and everyone else is God ...."
Not "everyone", but Every Thing, therefore there is no master creator or beginning nor end etc, and so god is atheist, as a rock is atheist, as all is connected as ONE !
.... Cool link site Theia , thanks ya all
Atheism Books.
Theia,
There is scoffing that knows not what it is doing. But, it's not a big deal. We can bear that and much more for the One who died for us.
Can a dog barking at the Mississippi affect the flow of the river?
Yet, there is forgiveness for such things that He may be feared. These thoughts and words will be poor company for you when faith becomes sight.
mephibosheth
jcg,
No.
By the way, do I remember somebody saying something about substance?
mephibosheth
Glad you finally gave me some.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Substance, confusion? Equivocation! Just trying to help .....
L O L god thinkers!
"Ambiguity, Discretion, and the Sorites"
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rasoren/papers/Ambiguitydiscr.pdf
P.S. Me, god/jesus/buddha/eternal/ONE, must say that the bible doesn't now jack shit about much, especially me god, and creating religion dogma from it is the Devil of wrong thinking and therefore brings unnecessary suffering and HELL on earth, as is WAR and poverty. God of abe folks are idol devil worshipers who preach separation.
..... and story Jesus wept ..... and boldly SHOUTED "fuck you" ..... ummm? Then they killed him. Do Xains read the bible, and the squashed gnostic books
, this is NOT funny 
Tell them Rook .....
Atheism Books.
What exactly are you trying to say? That we should ignore his screw-ups just because he's God?
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
So that's one rather crude insult, and an outright threat.
You may be a good and honest person in real life, but when you're discussing your religion, you're not very nice at all.
Of course he won't. He'll blame it on God's fall guy, the Devil
. ( ...and God created Satan and it was a good thing, no wait !! ...it was bad thing !! ....no wait... )
Theia,
When you hate you find faults that aren't there - they fester out of your hate, which is the real screw up blinding you to God's perfection.
If you were to enter heaven you would probably find a squeak in the pearly gates.
The problem is not in God but in the perceiver. You don't know what you're stumbling over.
mephibosheth
He who hates, dissembles with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred be covered with guile, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
Nobody's "hating" anything. People are just asking questions you don't want to think about. The "hate" is in your mind only. (ie : You're making it up)
Todd Friel always likes saying atheists just hate Jesus.
Friel and Meph - separated at birth?
Oh and meph, I beg your pardon for waxing rural on you but I can't hate what just ain't.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I believe that Blue Fairies cause the rain to fall.
Every time it rains, it proves that blue fairies exist.
You see order and call it design.
You see all 'proofs' as equal, thus you make the line hazy and indistinct between empiricism and imagination.
When confronted with facts that don't fit your paradigm, you scamper back to the comforting shadows murmering 'faith' over and over like a protective mantra.
We can not make an acorn or a bee... neither can your god, he doesn't exist.
I see the sun, moon and stars and my admittedly limited mind can grasp the edges of the rational explanations, the science, the physics; no gods, no magic needed...
I don't need faith to get along, and 'I don't know' is a perfectly good answer, far superior to 'god did it'.
I just know that every new explanation of how it all works, every bit of knowledge gained points to a natural world devoid of spirits and magical causation.
It is a telling point to me, that no one has yet to be able to point to a single phenomina that retains a hint of mysticism under the scrutiny of science.
The only miracle is that some minds can cling to superstition beyond all reason.
LC >;-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
You're making some rather bold assumptions and taking on the typical theist righteous attitude. I am not hating anything. I have no idea where you got that idea. I wish theists would get it through their heads that atheists can't hate a god they don't believe exists. All I did was point out some facts of nature that don't fit examples of intelligent design. But rather than address them in a rational manner you just get on your religious High Horse and start lecturing me. Typical.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Long ago I made the rather startling realisation that there is a huge slice of the population for whom the sensation of "belonging" in a communal sense overrides in their considerations absolutely everything else, even intelligence.
The Luddites used violence against new technology not only because it threatened their livelihoods but because the prospect of a world with which they were not intellectually equipped to cope terrified them. The educationally disadvantaged the world over contain within their ranks a sizeable anti-intellectual element that aggressively confronts anyone and anything they see as belonging to their "enemy", the educated.
It is tempting to forgive these people their excesses since life as we know is unfair and therefore their aggression, we can surmise, is an almost inevitable (if not quite a logical) outcome of their being at the wrong end of an imbalance. But to do that is to ignore the fact that many of these disadvantaged people also go about changing their lot in a radically different manner, by "beating the odds" - namely acquiring the intellectual skills and the education to improve it.
I wondered about that. Why do some people take one attitude and so many others the opposite? Why do some people simply get on with it and work at improvement while others - the majority - bemoan their lot and let seething resentment sometimes spill over into aggressive and spiteful condemnation of their perceived "enemy" - be it the Luddites with their hammers smashing automated weaves or the "religious" with their hate-inspired and snide put-downs of rational people?
And then I understood. Even in the most impoverished community (materially or intellectually) there is a power structure. Ignorance is no barrier to society organising itself and that organisation itself is the key to understanding a lot of what, as an atheist, one often finds oneself confronted by - and "meph" above is a prime example with his bombastic but meaningless avowals and his poorly disguised threats, albeit none that can actually be realised. He, like a lot of others who have invested so much of their identity in their perceived place within such a communal organisation, is frightened by anything that he thinks threatens it. It does not matter that the threat is only a threat because of the intrinsic flaws in his own community's rationale, or that in fact it is not even a real threat since it is equally an escape route out of a morass of delusional and dishonest tenets into a world where rationality and honesty act as sufficient governors in ensuring that society maintains enough notion of fairness and morality to encourage advancement.
Many understand that the position of being disadvantaged was not of their choosing. It was simply an accident of birth. And ironically, it is these people who are best equipped therefore to rise above their disadvantage since in successfully analysing their dilemma they have already taken the first step out of it. But others, who have carved a mean but vtal niche for themselves in the impoverished community, or who have even chosen voluntarily to immerse themselves into that community since they have found no other which will accept them unreservedly, have a vested interest in retaining it, disadantages and all. If protecting that position involves Luddites smashing the very machinery which will bring prosperity to so many of their neighbours, or for that matter involves attempting to convince others that herds of diplodocus grazed peacefully alongside sheep on the grasslands of Iraq before that particular Eden was radically landscaped by an "intelligent desgner", then this to them is a small price to pay for retaining membership within the only community from which they derive a sense of worth, and even sometimes a position of relative power.
All that matters to "meph", and others like him, is that should rationality prevail then he loses a large chunk of what he thinks of as his identity, and with it what he thinks of as his worth. Hence the evident fear, and a fear moreover that leads not only to their further entrenchment in stupid beliefs but a corresponding raising of the spite and hatred in their expression.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Anonymouse, (not verified)
You are making a unfounded judgment here based on your fancy from the hip estimate of the situation. You wouldn't accept this kind of unfounded broad brushed statement from me yet you think you said something? Prove it with your scientific method.
mephibosheth (verified - in the light of the Gospel and the nailed hands and feet of determined justice and mercy)
And you aren't?
You say we hate God because we ask for more about his existence than just his word and yours.
As you said, one shouldn't accept a broad statement at face value. No one would accept that from another human.
Shouldn't a higher power be held to at least that standard (or better)? Why let God slide?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Prozac,
I can tell you don't look healthy there Prozac and you might want to consider the meaning of life, also the shortness of it - like a vapor. Does the road you are on take you the way you want to go - even beyond death?
We see the fundamental of Jesus' burning desire at the Cross in his last Words. The question is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Jesus had taken our sin upon Himself and God turned away until His Justice was completely satisfied - yet, see how His great desire for Grace is shown, God's great desire to forgive us, even to the point of forsaking His Beloved Son?
Jesus' cry was answered though when morning broke - God delivered Him from Death and exalted Him above ALL powers and principalities. The One who constantly intercedes for us was ignored at this time so we would never be forsaken. He was taking the role of us - the sinner, not deserving to be heard.
Consider how determined God is both to forgive sin and to punish sin - even to the point of giving His Son in His Grace and Mercy to us yet slaying His Son to satisfy His Justice.
By this we are healed and forgiven yet don't take sin lightly. We are at rest yet still making progress. We are secure yet on guard. We are full of joy with no sorrow added. We are made holy yet not proud because it is a gift to all who receive it.
We are mocked like Jesus was - yet even those ungodly mocking didn't deny "He trusts in God, let God deliver Him". You bear witness even in your mocking that I trust in God - thanks. You can be my witness later too - but I would rather have you as brother.
mephibosheth (your enemy the Devil is like a roaring lion, seeking who he may devour)
Sounds made up meph. That is some real god mocking you are doing. Get free friend. All is ONE. There is no master. If your god and story book miracles were historically true, I'd say it was the work of a some trickster aliens ......
"The christ in me", and so when you too? Thanks for caring and good luck accepting you ..... 
Atheism Books.
Nordmann,
You know there are a lot of studies going on these days and I bet they will be the laughing stock of generations to come. You have figured this out yet your genius doesn't align with the genius of Deludedgod's, or JCG's, or Mattshizzle's or Hambydammit's - though you all love each other like lobsters in the same tub.
I bring this up because you will never find rest or harmony in your "studies", or "reasonings" or "theories". Besides, you will never find your way in this maze of com posit brain self - pollinating.
What you need is the transformation of faith in Jesus, understanding that He is the Son of God. If He says it - that settles it. There is where you find rest and direction, anchor and direction as well as propeller for your boat.
mephibosheth (a ship not a bottle)
Sons and daughters and all energy/matter of the cosmos is ONE (god). Brilliant .... zero superstition. That's was a simple saving message indeed, attributed to the story philosophical jesus title banner of ancient writers, that got a few things right.
There is, however, lots more wisdom in the Twilight Zone writings ..... ummm, should we make Rod Serling an idol of worship?
Atheism Books.
Thinking of you meph, I grabbed this from another RRS thread, "Sin before sin"
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13446?page=7
#240 (an X christian) johnpaultheskeptic
It seems that Christians have no concept of events and beliefs that stem from the Hebrew Bible. Why is it that they don't accept Judaism's version where the Garden of Eden story is seen as a parable. In fact Judaism does not see these events as The Fall of Man at all. Jews believe that man was created as a mortal and Eve was not the cause of death entering the world. Judaism does not have the concept of original sin as does the offshoot Christianity. Instead Judaism advocates the rise of man and Original Virtue. They teach each soul is pure upon entering the world and each man can return to his creator in a pure condition. Judaism sees that humanity has not reached its Golden Age as of yet but that it is in the future when the Kingdom of God is established on Earth.
So what I don't understand is how Christianity threw out the teaching of Judaism for a religion of a blood sacrifice and original sin. Christians have taken Judaism the original religion off on a complete tangent. This gets even more confusing when you look at the predicted Messiah or Moshiach. He was to be a great political leader who will be a descendant of David. In some of the same scriptures Christians have misinterpreted he is described as a great military leader, a judge and a righteous man. Man is key here. No where in Jewish tradition is he a god or part of God.
I am not Jewish, this knowledge is from courses at a Jesuit University where I received a graduate degree. I have never understood how Christianity took this religion and swapped out its principles and successfully implemented the perversion now known as Christianity. I would say most Christians today do not realize the complete difference between Judaism and Christianity. A Jew believes man is born into the world pure and can leave it in the same state. A Christian believes man is born into sin and will perish forever unless he is saved by belief in Jesus.
As an atheist now and an outsider from both religions I see the arguments of Judaism in a different way then when I was a Christian. First off I would have to have proof God was real and not an imaginary offshoot of the ancient volcano God El. If I accepted God as real I would become a Jewish believer as they have far better claims to what their scriptures said then the pagans who created Christianity.
See: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus/jews-jesus-index.html
See this on the Jewish belief on the Garden of Eden and the fall http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
See this on the Messiah: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm
I personally would rather see Jews proselytize Christians and convert them back to a purer form of worship in mythology. If you must believe in God, please become a Jew or at least a God fearing believer obeying the 7 laws of Noah. Here I agree with the Jews, if Jesus existed he was a man and was not the Moshiach or Messiah.
I usually argue that the Garden of Eden and the fall of man is a story of mythology. The Jews say it is a parable. If Christians choose to accept this story as real they must first provide proof why Judaism the basis for their religion is in error.
Atheism Books.
And if you are good Santa will leave presents under your tree.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
I just don't think that asking a question is an expression of hate. Is that really an unfounded judgment ? Seriously, is it ? How many times would I have to repeat this question before you give me a clear yes or no answer ?
Sorry for not being verified. I'm just a lurker here, but your blatant dishonesty has made me speak up. It may not be my place to say this, but I think most posters in this thread have shown you more respect and consideration than your behaviour deserves, and you have payed them back with insults and a total disregard for their carefully worded arguments.
If you have nothing but contempt for these people, why are you even here ?
That you would make a reply to me which opens with an overtly insulting tone, and which simply therefore proves my stated suspicions about you right does not surprise me, it is evidently a feature of the insecurity you feel. That the reply mixes metaphors and promotes irrelevancies with the same gay abandon that it refutes reason surprises me neither. That is also a prominent feature of how people like you express yourselves.
That you should naively think you can impress me with a punchline to your waffle which flatly insults my intelligence surprises me immensely however. I had you down for a more careful person than that, however deluded you might be.
I will give you slight benefit of the doubt and assume on the basis of your last sentence and its syntax that you were pissed out of your skull or high on some substance when you wrote your reply. At least it means that hope lies for you in sobering up or otherwise detoxing your system and allowing your brain to function normally again. If such is not the case then I am afraid your road to recovery will be even more difficult, if possible at all. I wish you luck - though you'll find it easier if you don't bring too many invisible friends along with you.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Thanks but you need not elaborate to me Christian doctrine as to who Jesus was, why he came, the consequences of sin, etc. I was born and raised in Texas where a church sits practically on every corner and a few major Christian Seminaries as well. My family is exclusively Christian and has been for generations ( what were the chances ! ) and I was a Bible-believing Christian for more than twenty years.
I am absolutely certain that you possess no new biblical information to share that I have not already been thoroughly familiarized with.
As I stated to you before....I was once a dedicated, bible-believing Christian.
ps, Hebrews 6:4-6 says I can't return to my former faith even if I wanted to.
Oh, btw Jesus burns apostates like myself so you are wasting your breath.
you,
Thanks for thinking of me. On this we agree: somebody is wrong about God and Jesus and the Scriptures. There is such a thing as false teachers and false teaching. No doubt about that.
You and I have the opportunity at this conscious moment to decide in our heart of hearts who and what is true and what is false. We can't do that for each other - which is another thing we agree on. Hopefully we can help. He who gives a right answer kisses the lips.
Note it is possible to go wrong even from the start. Look at Cain's unacceptable sacrifice and his reaction to correction. That was even before pollution and global warming.
Sure, the Jews didn't accept Jesus. He didn't fit their concept of the Messiah. And they are still following the law of Moses? Hmmmm. You buy that, huh? You are going to ride on that camel?
"He came to His own and they didn't receive Him." "The stone they rejected has become the Chief Cornerstone, one they stumble over". (paraphrased from memory) So you have a decision to make here - whether Jesus is what He says He is or what the Jews who reject Him say.
The thing I would stress to you man (as in - not God) is: this is serious stuff. In these questions you are either going to find The Way or spin out. Don't let the fear of man or the crackle of thorns under the pot sway your decision on these matters. Check it out for yourself in as much honesty as you can muster.
mephibosheth (the true Jew is one who walks by faith like Abraham)
My apologies for butting in once again, but I couldn't help but notice you used the word "honesty". I hope that means you understand what that word means, or are at least familiar with the concept.
Please go back a few posts and apply this concept to yourself.
This isn't sarcasm. It's a serious request. Just thought I'd mention that, before I get accused of "hatred" or whatever.
Somebody is wrong about God, Jesus and the Scriptures...
but it just CAN'T be you?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Actually I'm the one that posted this on the thread Sin before Sin. My point was Christians took an ancient religion that was extremely detailed with different outlooks and altered it into a far different direction. The Jews do not have the concept of Original Sin they believe a soul is born pure. These two views are virtual opposites. Somehow the Jews must have missed where God changed from their original position in their own scriptures. I personally do not know where in Hebrew Scriptures (OT) that occured. Paul and most likely his followers that were primarily non-Jews took this religion that may have had a 2000 year history in a direction far different. As Judaism is the basis for Christianity proof of error by the Jews in their belief is required in order to justify the complete tangent found in Christianity. If such proof is the wild claims of St. Paul how is that justification? He is but a single person account and there is much to question. As I said in the other thread, it's not as if I believe any of this as I see Judaism as mythological and Christianity as a derivative of mythology.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
JCG,
Have you taken up drive by shooting - this after my substantive response?
Your approach here doesn't agree with the admonition of Deludedgod (and I quote):
We are offering you responses, and all you are doing is asserting in one-liners over and over "you have faith". This is an argumentum ad nauseam fallacy. In formal debating, it is banned. The moderator will simply ask you to cease and desist. And, as luck would have it, I am a moderator, and I am asking you to start arguing properly or to cease and desist. (Deludedgod to me, earlier in this thread)
mephibotheth (the reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated)
Actually, his approach has nothing to do with that. He's not repeating the same thing over and over again.
Btw, it's nice to know you read deludedgod's posts. I didn't realise you took him seriously, since you compared him to a lobster a few posts ago.
So does this mean you're planning to apply this rule to yourself now too ?
That would be good, as there are quite a few substantive responses in this thread that you cheerfully ignored. I'm looking forward to you replying to them all in detail.
It's a question - got an answer? It isn't an argument - you like dodging those. Oh, and using a lot of extra words to still say "I've got faith" isn't proper debating either. If I remember correctly, it's supposed to go "I have faith and here's why".
That's why the argument bombs and always will - you can't provide evidence in a way that others can take your information and get your results. Faith manifests differently for each individual (that's what I got from my Christian experience). Some people get peace, others get joy, a few get a dogged determination. Same God, same faith, diferent results.
Look deeper - there's substance in the question. You tell people that there are false teachers but you can't even accept the possibility that you might be one of them. Because your view of god and scripture is the only one that can be right? Sounds very cultish. Then again, did you not say once in this beast of a thread that you were a church of one?
Is that enough substance for you to give a proper dodge or do you need more before you can tell me you have faith or send Bible verses?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I have read about 2/3 of this thread since I am God as You pointed it out to me when he cross posted my comment regarding the beliefs of the Jews. I see this thread has had a lot of heated words in places. Considering the classes I had in religion now in the context of non-belief the question is relevant as to how were the Jews prior to Jesus led astray into believing they were born pure. Exactly which patriarch of Israel misinterpreted God's will? That was what I posed in my question when I came to this thread to the Christian poster Mephibotheth.
As you know I'm a level headed Ex-Christian skeptic with many years of religious instruction. My position is Christianity is a false doctrine of heretic Jews and pagans that have warped Judaism into that which it was never intended. I consider all who profess Christian beliefs to be false teachers. Jcgadfly I agree with you that when considered in this way that theists expressing Jesus as the Messiah of the Jews are false teachers. As to Judaism having basis in reality, as I have previously stated I consider it to be based in mythology. In order for Christianity to have any basis for consideration the errors of the patriarchs who established the beliefs must first be considered. The statement that the Jews rejected Jesus has no relevance when considering the validity of original Jewish belief. Christianity has the requirement to show why their claim of interpretation is correct. For the Christian view to be accepted either the early Jewish patriarchs were correct that man was born pure and Yahweh changed the game or reasons must be shown why they misinterpreted God's supposed will and man inherited original sin. 2000 years of Jewish belief prior to Jesus provides substanial claims as to original Jewish interpretation.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Hey meph,
PaulJohn's got a point. Which takes more faith? Believing in a corrupted myth culled from another myth based religion or things that can be proven and repeated?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Why does nobody just ask this guy to explain exactly what he means?
Just take the last substantive post from him:
What is a conscious moment - as opposed to an unconscious moment? How is a moment conscious or unconscious?
Heart of hearts? Is that a euphemism for something? Does he mean to the best of our understanding? Does he mean according to our basest instincts? Does he mean anything?
He who gives / lips? What does that mean? What the hell has kissing on the lips to do with being factually correct in one's response?
This is bullshit talk. It is purposefully nebulous. But he's not finished. Look what he says next:
Global warming ????????? Pollution ?????? Cain ??????? Are we meant to feel dumb when we don't make an immediate connection ? This is simply the Emperor's Clothes Syndrome all over again. It's bullshit (excpt maybe to him) but it's expressed as valid comment and we are dared to defy the implied logic at the peril of being deemed dumb by him and others.
So what? He couldn't be bothered explaining himself and was purposefully arch in his delivery. Let him take the responsibility of explaining himself.
And then we get;
Are we hearing a sneer here? "Ride on that camel" coming from a person who was nearest to an even-toed ungulate the last time he was at the zoo? Why that euphemism? We can see he is dismissing the concept of a continuity between the beliefs of the Jews and that of christians concerning the notion of a messiah. But a camel euphemism? Hmmmm.
But there's more:
Why? Because you say so? Surely there's an option to decide that - on the face of all evidence - both perspectives are flawed. I mean, isn't that what you are purportedly arguing against? Have you forgotten? Did you think you were talking to dumb christians for a moment?
And so we come back to the original ploy again of hoping to impress with obfuscation. Find "The Way" (with capitals of course) or "spin out"? A crackle of thorns under a pot? And then you ask US to be honest? You haven't made one honest remark in the whole passage you submitted as a supposedly worthwhile and valid contribution to the discussion.
Fraudulent expression, in other words, employed apparently without the slightest pang of conscience or misgiving in an attempt to persuade others that the speaker's misguided beliefs are not themselves fraudulent. It would be sad if it didn't smack so much of mental illness, and one shared by an alarmingly sizeable minority of humanity.
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Anonymouse,
No need to apologize or even get verified with me. Don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about here with the honesty thing - and that's the long and the short of it.
I can think of few things more boring than going back and reading posts on this thread - among them looking up deludedgod's words and trying to decide which meaning he meant.
I think I do understand what the word honesty means by the way; you see, I understand that God searches the heart and knows exactly what is going on inside. Since I know that and experience the Living God (you remember Jesus promised He, His Father, and the Holy Spirit would come and dwell in Their sons and daughters. I confront myself vigorously concerning honesty before the Living God and in the Light of His Spirit. I try (and fail a lot) to take every thought captive and bring it into obedience to Christ - His words, His attitudes, His purposes.
Honesty I think is related to humility. Humility is seeing things as they are in my book. For example if a man thinks he knows something - thinks he is pretty smart for one reason or another - if you take a few steps back he doesn't know anything in comparison to what there is to know. So humility is an honest state - a down to earth state, a real state. I think it relates to honesty.
I would challenge you in this accusation concerning my honesty. If I was not honest why would I have mentioned I had bipolar. Why would I have admitted I was a totally worthless scoundrel before I found Christ? I have made myself vulnerable here - open about my faith in Christ and my life all about Him and my focus on Him - in hopes that some will honestly consider it.
I am also being totally honest that - unlike several have mentioned - faith in Christ works totally for me. It gets brighter and more exciting every day. And that opposing experience is actually why I am here on this website. I saw some of the "blasphemy challenges" and heard some saying they tried faith in Christ and then were let down or it didn't work or something similar.
Well, I have a contrasting experience and it's open to challenge: Faith and life in Christ DOES work for me. It's true for me and I'm being honest about it.
Somewhere in this thread it was generally acknowledged that faith is not a thing you can prove - at least to someone else. I have proved faith in Christ to myself because I have exercised it and have had it verified. You might think about getting verified yourself Anonymouse - and by that I mean check out Christ for yourself. You can find rest for your soul in Christ.
There are those saying "prove you're right to me" - I wish I could and I would, but I can only prove Christ to myself. That I have done and I am doing.
There was this other wild accusation that I said I am a "church of one" - I don't have the slightest idea where that misunderstanding came from either. In Christ I have many brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers.
I think on the part of some there is a desire to misunderstand when it comes to Christ and God - and I think there is also a lot of success in that on this forum.
I poured 29 yards of concrete today and I'm not attempting to answer any more posts tonight.
And by the way if I die tonight? No problemo! The road I'm on - which is trying with all my heart, soul and mind to glorify Christ (honestly) will take me all the way. My faith in Christ has application to everything in life and death.
mephibosheth (honest rescued sinner)
..."Saved" means you are now the christ too, and will share the message of "ONE".
I AM a "non believer, non worshiper", an ATHEIST, because the CHRIST is indeed 100% ME ..... and you too ..... I really hope you know .... yes , the "good word" , all is ONE ....
O N E
O N E
Atheism Books.
Has this pathetic, mealy mouthed attention whore been fed enough yet?
LC >;-}>
Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.
Louis,
Thanks. That's good honest hate there with venom of asps. It illustrates what I was referring to with the communication problem. If you hate someone how can you understand the flavor or heart of what somebody is saying? You are wanting to mischaracterize and who can stop you?
Applying this to the Scriptures - how can you understand the heart of God? You can read them but you can't understand. The well is there but like Hagar your eyes are not yet open to it.
mephibosheth (wise men lay up knowledge, but the babbling of a fool brings ruin near)
I generally decide with my brain. The heart is just a pump for blood. If we're talking metaphorically, which I assume is the case then I decide with my reason not my emotions.
Atheist Books
He might hate you (but I doubt it). I know that I don't hate you and I'm the one you said was having the communication problem because I hate you and Jesus. Hate takes more energy than I want to use on you. I've got a play opening in 3 days and I need all I can get.
Why do you assume that all those with questions (or who don't believe your arguments) hate you?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Hello Sir,
I'll explain the honesty thing to you. I'm really surprised you don't get, since you go on to say that you "can think of few things more boring than going back and reading posts on this thread". If all the reactions and comments made by other people are so worthless to you, then why are you even here ?
You've been taken seriously by almost everyone who posted in your thread, but you can't be bothered to return the favor.
Your opening post has been refuted time and time again, and yet you keep ignoring this. That's dishonest for a start, but when you do judge us worthy of a reply, you limit yourself to insults and weird accusations that you refuse to explain. You compare people to dogs, and their comments to barking. You accuse people of "hating" only because they question you. I'm sorry, sir, but I really don't understand why you feel the need to do that.
Yes, you have made yourself vulnerable here, that's true. Has anybody here used that against you ? As for you being a totally worthless scoundrel before you found Christ, I doubt that, sir, I doubt that very much. Anyway, like I said before, you only have a problem with honesty when you're discussing religion, not when you're talking about other things.
You have a contrasting experience and it's open to challenge ? That's great, sir, good for you, and I mean that without a shred of sarcasm. I appreciate you coming here and defending your point of view, but the point is that you're really not doing a very good job, and you're refusing to admit it. Once again, calling people dogs and lobsters, and treating their arguments as being beneath your contempt, that's not going to convince anyone. In fact, it just makes you look less and less credible.
I don't have a desire to misunderstand when it comes to Christ and God. There's nothing I would like more than to understand why you act this way. But I have read every word you've posted in this thread, and all that got me was just more and more questions.
I had some lingering belief in God before I started reading this thread, but your replies to other people's arguments have totally destroyed that.
All the best to you, sir. I see you're online. I hope you're well and rested, and maybe this time you'll reply to some of the other people who answered your challenge. I hope you can find it in yourself to actually answer their questions this time.
*sigh* Here we go again with the "hatred" thing.
Nobody here hates you, sir, no matter how much you want them to. People have a right to get irritated with you when you keep dodging questions and arguments, giving boredom as your only reason for doing so.
I'd like to repeat Jcgadfly's question,as I think it's an important one.
Why do you assume that all those with questions (or who don't believe your arguments) hate you ?
I came to this thread to discuss with you the difference between Christian and Jewish beliefs. I am interested in where do you think the Jewish people misinterpreted their scriptures that resulted in opposite views of man held by the two religions
I have read all of this thread and understand your position. My impression of you is Jesus is all there is for you. You completely accept it all and have that feeling that throbs in you justifying it as the WAY. I have encountered several Christians over the years that exhibit these same attitudes. One is a friend of mine who is a well known Evangelical singer. He and I concluded after several years of discussion neither was going to convert the other. My purpose in coming here is not to convert you, I know that is unlikely from reading your posts, but to grasp how several beliefs you hold fit against Jewish belief. You are unlikely to convert me either though I know you will try. I had religious parents one was a Lutheran School Teacher. My name alone tells you I had religious beginnings. I went to parochial schools, I was in the choir, and I was an altar boy. When I was married I converted to Catholicism. I graduated from a Jesuit University with a graduate degree. I have the knowledge of the scriptures though as you have said:
My interpretation is from knowledge of other cultures, other religions, and rational thinking. I have read what you think of logic and reasoning when it comes to Jesus. My purpose is to gain understanding simply for knowledge. If you choose not to accept my offer to discuss this issue just tell me no thanks. If you decide you would like to engage in this discussion I will be starting an appropriate thread.
Paul John The Skeptic
aka Paul John The Ex-Christian Relapsed Catholic Heretic
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I have started a new thread called "Christianity is False Teaching"
See Here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13848
Hope to see you there
Paul John The Skeptic
aka The Non-Believing Ex-Christian Relapsed Catholic Heretic
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.