what faith you
Offline
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it.
I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple.
I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me.
Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
Offline Hey now, johnpaul, you get back here ! Lots of "silent" readers of RRS need you 
.... thanks man ..... "save" the heathen christians and all such idol worshipers ... and the world will be a better place. Hey, Jesus/Buddha would insist ! ((( and if not , J/B can go fly a kite .... peace.
Offline Hey now, johnpaul, you get back here ! Lots of "silent" readers of RRS need you
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline Well yeah I know, just saying it's good having you around. "Love the enemy" a wise one said !
Offline Since it seems you have nothing of value to contribute to my research as well as your stated reluctance to participate I will be on my way.
*Packs notebook and recorder into knapsack and walks out into the vast distance of the unknown*
Paul John the Researcher Explorer Ex-Christian Non-Believer Relapsed Catholic Heretic
PJTS,
Sure, go do your study, take the road of unbelief you have chosen to the applause of the peanut gallery. Become a bum and meet bums. The road goes to destruction. Your heresies will be poor company for you there.
mephibosheth
(A wise man's heart inclines him to toward the right but a fool's heart toward the left. Even when the fool walks on the road he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool)
Offline Sure, go do your study, take the road of unbelief you have chosen to the applause of the peanut gallery. Become a bum and meet bums. The road goes to destruction. Your heresies will be poor company for you there.
mephibosheth
(A wise man's heart inclines him to toward the right but a fool's heart toward the left. Even when the fool walks on the road he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool)
Once again, everybody's a fool but you, eh sir ?
So apart from expressing your contempt for everyone on this board, and happily ignoring their questions and arguments, what exactly is it you're trying to do here ?
Didn't you say wanted to show off your faith to all those young people who took the blasphemy challenge ? If that's the case, then you're not doing it right. I haven't taken the challenge yet, but your behaviour here makes me want to do it anyway.
Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Since it seems you have nothing of value to contribute to my research as well as your stated reluctance to participate I will be on my way.
*Packs notebook and recorder into knapsack and walks out into the vast distance of the unknown*
Paul John the Researcher Explorer Ex-Christian Non-Believer Relapsed Catholic Heretic
PJTS,
Sure, go do your study, take the road of unbelief you have chosen to the applause of the peanut gallery. Become a bum and meet bums. The road goes to destruction. Your heresies will be poor company for you there.
mephibosheth
(A wise man's heart inclines him to toward the right but a fool's heart toward the left. Even when the fool walks on the road he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool)
That was certainly not called for. Perhaps you should consider a course in the social graces. Not once have I taken a shot at you.
Paul John the Just aka the Skeptic on the High Ground
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Since it seems you have nothing of value to contribute to my research as well as your stated reluctance to participate I will be on my way.
*Packs notebook and recorder into knapsack and walks out into the vast distance of the unknown*
Paul John the Researcher Explorer Ex-Christian Non-Believer Relapsed Catholic Heretic
PJTS,
Sure, go do your study, take the road of unbelief you have chosen to the applause of the peanut gallery. Become a bum and meet bums. The road goes to destruction. Your heresies will be poor company for you there.
mephibosheth
(A wise man's heart inclines him to toward the right but a fool's heart toward the left. Even when the fool walks on the road he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool)
Christian mask slipping a little there?
False piety makes a poor adhesive.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline That was certainly not called for. Perhaps you should consider a course in the social graces. Not once have I taken a shot at you.
Paul John the Just aka the Skeptic on the High Ground
PJTS,
Who says it's a shot at you? I consider it true friendship to share truth. And...
Those are all true statements, along with the fact that "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" (by definition). As to whether they apply to you, I don't know. If they do and you would apply them it would be quite a favor to hear the warning - eventually you would say, "that mephibosheth was the best friend I ever had! Otherwise that truck would have hit me!" (faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy)
If they don't apply to you - do what I do with most of the statements directed to me on this forum (i.e. JCG 'the nice', Anonymoose 'nv', Jacob & Co, & not a god) - ignore them.
You're ignoring a lot more than me, including (if I understood right) your own previous commitment to God (you and several others here).
In case nobody told you we're having an intense up front discussion here about how we see things - right or wrong. I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply. I don't see your whining applies in this case.
mephibosheth
(he who trusts in his own mind is a fool; but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered) (ignore if this doesn't apply)
Offline "Wisdom" is simple common sense, sadly a rare trait of our human race. Atheists deny the God of religion , thank god .....because All is one , all IS GOD. "Existence" is the only "miracle" ( simply meaning the unexplained). Religion is folklore. Who are the fools? .....
MEPH, I think you might get something out of this, as you seek wisdom. (cross post)
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13254?page=1
"What ever happened to gods miracles" ((((( COOL THREAD ....
#119 - Hey Luminon. I AM lost for words as usual /// Interesting site you posted. I love eastern "philosophy" ....
Since I was about 12 yrs old I've been amazed and sad, because what we call "Masters of Wisdom", or "Great Leaders" etc etc, is simply common sense, so lacking in the general masses. This can and will only be changed with devotion to world education, based on the "ethics" of WE ARE ONE .....
As much "common sense" there is in that site, the so called "miracles" presented there, IMO without elaborating, do a dis-service .....
As you seemed basically to say before, existence is the only "miracle" (simply meaning the unknown)
Just to add to the understanding of that site "Share International" and the essay there on "Maitreya" , read these two first, just the opening summaries, then the essay,
"Maitreya" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_eschatology
Essay: "Frequently asked questions about Maitreya"
http://www.share-international.org/maitreya/Maitreya_faq.htm
Starts:
Q. What does Maitreya think is the most urgent problem in the world at present?
A. The most important action with which Maitreya is concerned is the saving of millions of people who currently die from starvation in a world of plenty. He says that nothing so moves Him to grief as this shame: “The crime of separation must be driven from this world. I affirm that as My Purpose.” So the first aim of Maitreya is to show humanity that we are one and the same: wherever we live, whatever our colour, background or religious belief, the needs of all are the same.
Equally important and just as urgent is the saving of our planet from the destruction on which it is set from our misuse of the resources of the planet. ///
I AM a disciple of "COMMON SENSE" , and so very proud of the many "Masters of Wisdom" here at RRS and growing in numbers everywhere on our small one world .... Did I say I love you teachers ? I love you ! 
Offline I seriously think I am God as You makes more sense than mephibosheth.
Offline PJTS,
Who says it's a shot at you? I consider it true friendship to share truth. And...
Those are all true statements, along with the fact that "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" (by definition). As to whether they apply to you, I don't know. If they do and you would apply them it would be quite a favor to hear the warning - eventually you would say, "that mephibosheth was the best friend I ever had! Otherwise that truck would have hit me!" (faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy)
If they don't apply to you - do what I do with most of the statements directed to me on this forum (i.e. JCG 'the nice', Anonymoose 'nv', Jacob & Co, & not a god) - ignore them.
You're ignoring a lot more than me, including (if I understood right) your own previous commitment to God (you and several others here).
In case nobody told you we're having an intense up front discussion here about how we see things - right or wrong. I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply. I don't see your whining applies in this case.
mephibosheth
(he who trusts in his own mind is a fool; but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered) (ignore if this doesn't apply)
I was taught to respect others by my religious parents and to withhold judgment as your book says judge not lest ye be judged. Though I may be a skeptic and an atheist I have toleration for those who believe such as you. Your book also says the Father is the judge not man. Though I am opposed to your views and think them based on ancient mythology of ignorant people I don't know you and won't stoop to levels of disrespect such as you do. You are free to show disrespect if you so choose though it reflects on you as a person and may not help your cause. I am not a bum nor do I associate with such. You don't know me either and judge as did the Inquisitors of the Middle Ages. Yes I am a heretic and I would have gladly burned at the stake before submitting to the beliefs of ignorance. I think belief in religion is a waste of a life. As you submit to a doctrine based on misleading thinly based concepts you have no understanding for that which you have lost or maybe never had. You follow the path of sheep and jump off the cliff into oblivion just because of ancient writing by unreliable sources told you so.
All that you lose in a world of reason is beyond your understanding as you see it as God's work. We may see the same thing but you praise God and I'm thrilled with the wonder and complexity of reality. Many have come before you and have prayed to countless named deities from Ki and An to Zeus,Thor, and Mithra. The believer asks or thanks the gods for what they have or what they would like. All have received the same response from Ba'al and Yahweh to Allah and Jesus. Absolutely nothing. It is amazing at the ability of the con man preaching to the masses. Barnum and Bailey said it correctly, there is indeed a sucker born every minute. My purpose is like yours to bring truth to the world. One of us is seriously wrong and pursues a dream world in the dimension of never was. Such a waste it is of time, resources and effort to chase an invisible dream in the land of fantasy. It is your choice to commit mental suicide and fry you brain as in the old Nancy Reagan anti-drug commercials. You can still be saved from irrationality if you open your brain to the real world. You are in a self imposed Matrix. You think that you eat steak but it is only an illusion. The real world is still out here. Take the Red Pill and discover the real world.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline My friends, my friends .... to "share" your Atheism is "saving" .... "No Masters, all is ONE", simple wisdom .... I adore story Jesus, as he and I are the same; Atheists ! 
Yeah sure, there are other "versions" , that damn clever devil ! ..... 
My entire "bible of wisdom" can be summed up in a word, >( O N E )<
O-N-E
Offline
I seriously think I am God as You makes more sense than mephibosheth.
ms,
I notice you are pretty high on the atheist point tony awards here. If you got all your points for vaporous one /liners like that and other flaming darts you have shot as you rode by on your ass on this thread the point thing isn't worth much.
I'm surprised you even got most of them lit.
mephibosheth
Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:That was certainly not called for. Perhaps you should consider a course in the social graces. Not once have I taken a shot at you.
Paul John the Just aka the Skeptic on the High Ground
PJTS,
Who says it's a shot at you? I consider it true friendship to share truth. And...
Those are all true statements, along with the fact that "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" (by definition). As to whether they apply to you, I don't know. If they do and you would apply them it would be quite a favor to hear the warning - eventually you would say, "that mephibosheth was the best friend I ever had! Otherwise that truck would have hit me!" (faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy)
If they don't apply to you - do what I do with most of the statements directed to me on this forum (i.e. JCG 'the nice', Anonymoose 'nv', Jacob & Co, & not a god) - ignore them.
You're ignoring a lot more than me, including (if I understood right) your own previous commitment to God (you and several others here).
In case nobody told you we're having an intense up front discussion here about how we see things - right or wrong. I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply. I don't see your whining applies in this case.
mephibosheth
(he who trusts in his own mind is a fool; but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered) (ignore if this doesn't apply)
Okay, can somebody explain this to me, cuz I'm not getting this anymore.
First he says he's ignoring everyone who's been replying to him these last few pages, and then he says "we're having an intense up front discussion here".
I also like this one : "I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply".
I'm guessing that once he starts ignoring PJ too, this thread'll be over.
Offline
MattShizzle wrote:I seriously think I am God as You makes more sense than mephibosheth.
ms,
I notice you are pretty high on the atheist point tony awards here. If you got all your points for vaporous one /liners like that and other flaming darts you have shot as you rode by on your ass on this thread the point thing isn't worth much.
I'm surprised you even got most of them lit.
mephibosheth
Hey, if you don't think it applies to you, just ignore it.
Read your own posts, sir.
And for what it's worth (absolutely nothing to you), I think Matt has a point.
Offline
ms,
I notice you are pretty high on the atheist point tony awards here. If you got all your points for vaporous one /liners like that and other flaming darts you have shot as you rode by on your ass on this thread the point thing isn't worth much.
I'm surprised you even got most of them lit.
mephibosheth
Shame meph. 
Remember Proverbs 15:1 says "A soft answer turneth away wrath; but grievous words stir up anger"
Offline Geezzz meph , "Worship" is a devil idea , all is ONE. What is not GOD ? Nothing is separate .... I don't get you theists ???? I AM JESUS ! Just as ProzacDW is Jesus ... we are ONE .... who is separate ?
Offline mephibosheth wrote:pauljohntheskeptic wrote:That was certainly not called for. Perhaps you should consider a course in the social graces. Not once have I taken a shot at you.
Paul John the Just aka the Skeptic on the High Ground
PJTS,
Who says it's a shot at you? I consider it true friendship to share truth. And...
Those are all true statements, along with the fact that "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" (by definition). As to whether they apply to you, I don't know. If they do and you would apply them it would be quite a favor to hear the warning - eventually you would say, "that mephibosheth was the best friend I ever had! Otherwise that truck would have hit me!" (faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy)
If they don't apply to you - do what I do with most of the statements directed to me on this forum (i.e. JCG 'the nice', Anonymoose 'nv', Jacob & Co, & not a god) - ignore them.
You're ignoring a lot more than me, including (if I understood right) your own previous commitment to God (you and several others here).
In case nobody told you we're having an intense up front discussion here about how we see things - right or wrong. I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply. I don't see your whining applies in this case.
mephibosheth
(he who trusts in his own mind is a fool; but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered) (ignore if this doesn't apply)
Okay, can somebody explain this to me, cuz I'm not getting this anymore.
First he says he's ignoring everyone who's been replying to him these last few pages, and then he says "we're having an intense up front discussion here".I also like this one : "I'm open to your opinions about me and what I say - if they apply".
I'm guessing that once he starts ignoring PJ too, this thread'll be over.
Then he can go back to his theist buddies and brag about how he stood up for Jesus despite intense persecution.
You know, persecution. Questions, opinions, arguments, comments - that kind of persecution.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline Geezzz meph , "Worship" is a devil idea , all is ONE. What is not GOD ? Nothing is separate .... I don't get you theists ???? I AM JESUS ! Just as ProzacDW is Jesus ... we are ONE .... who is separate ?
YES. that is all.
"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan
Offline Sir,
I was taught to respect others by my religious parents and to withhold judgment as your book says judge not lest ye be judged. Though I may be a skeptic and an atheist I have toleration for those who believe such as you. Your book also says the Father is the judge not man. Though I am opposed to your views and think them based on ancient mythology of ignorant people I don't know you and won't stoop to levels of disrespect such as you do. You are free to show disrespect if you so choose though it reflects on you as a person and may not help your cause. I am not a bum nor do I associate with such. You don't know me either and judge as did the Inquisitors of the Middle Ages. Yes I am a heretic and I would have gladly burned at the stake before submitting to the beliefs of ignorance. I think belief in religion is a waste of a life. As you submit to a doctrine based on misleading thinly based concepts you have no understanding for that which you have lost or maybe never had. You follow the path of sheep and jump off the cliff into oblivion just because of ancient writing by unreliable sources told you so.
All that you lose in a world of reason is beyond your understanding as you see it as God's work. We may see the same thing but you praise God and I'm thrilled with the wonder and complexity of reality. Many have come before you and have prayed to countless named deities from Ki and An to Zeus,Thor, and Mithra. The believer asks or thanks the gods for what they have or what they would like. All have received the same response from Ba'al and Yahweh to Allah and Jesus. Absolutely nothing. It is amazing at the ability of the con man preaching to the masses. Barnum and Bailey said it correctly, there is indeed a sucker born every minute. My purpose is like yours to bring truth to the world. One of us is seriously wrong and pursues a dream world in the dimension of never was. Such a waste it is of time, resources and effort to chase an invisible dream in the land of fantasy. It is your choice to commit mental suicide and fry you brain as in the old Nancy Reagan anti-drug commercials. You can still be saved from irrationality if you open your brain to the real world. You are in a self imposed Matrix. You think that you eat steak but it is only an illusion. The real world is still out here. Take the Red Pill and discover the real world.
PJTS,
My understanding of this is you are describing your own religion here. Is this what you trust in rather than accept the Righteousness of God in Christ? So this is why you are without the supplied "wedding garment"?
Maybe you have misunderstood my trust, since you mention you don't "trust in religion". I don't trust in religion either. I trust in Christ, imperfectly I admit.
But you are trying to sell your version of religion, at least that would be one way to describe it. You better take a closer look at that Barnum/Bailey thing - it's pretty subtle.
There is division here just as Jesus said there would be - the greatest division is concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. As you say, one of us is seriously wrong. I have no doubt whatsoever to the burning stake it is you that is seriously wrong about Jesus. You are trying to find a drink at the broken cisterns.
I have come to Jesus and drank the Living Water, and it has become a spring welling up within me flowing out. Consider what you are missing, because the invitation is open to come to Him and drink. And even a baby can drink.
mephibosheth (the drinking light is lit)
(On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "if any one thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" Now this He said about the Sirit, which those who believed in Him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified......So there was a division among the people over Him.)
Offline "He who believes in me", is as me, and worships nothing separate, and has no "idol" to pray too, and no superstition, and that is the "saving" knowledge, because all is ONE. The ancient talented (?) Bible writers were not perfect, nor them editors, nor them murderous canon designers. The story of Jesus was not written by the Jesus story character .... or by a separate GOD THINGY that created all this reality.
Meph; I suggest you read about all the other ancient gods, and loving messiahs etc ..... cool stuff too ....
If you are "ONE" with the father/mother cosmos, you are as me, and Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mithra, the Christ ! ..... We are ATHEISTS, in it's purist form. 
Birds singing in the morning makes my heart smile too ..... gawedly this all is ....
))))) "That is ALL" .... yeah pyrokidd
Offline Sir,
You have shown by your rejection of examining the basis of Christian belief or specifically the belief that Jesus is the Moshiach that you live in a construct of fantasy. You mind utilizes defense mechanisms to block knowledge and understanding such that you can continue in the world of your own Matrix.
PJTS,
My understanding of this is you are describing your own religion here. Is this what you trust in rather than accept the Righteousness of God in Christ? So this is why you are without the supplied "wedding garment"?
Maybe you have misunderstood my trust, since you mention you don't "trust in religion". I don't trust in religion either. I trust in Christ, imperfectly I admit.
But you are trying to sell your version of religion, at least that would be one way to describe it. You better take a closer look at that Barnum/Bailey thing - it's pretty subtle.
There is division here just as Jesus said there would be - the greatest division is concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. As you say, one of us is seriously wrong. I have no doubt whatsoever to the burning stake it is you that is seriously wrong about Jesus. You are trying to find a drink at the broken cisterns.
I have come to Jesus and drank the Living Water, and it has become a spring welling up within me flowing out. Consider what you are missing, because the invitation is open to come to Him and drink. And even a baby can drink.
He hath eyes but he does not see, ears but can not hear, and a tongue that speaks but incoherent are his words. Paraphrased but an accurate enough description of any believer. As you are on a closed path all that you see and observe are filtered into the construct of reality where you exist. There was no religion described in my words sir, but that which has been said to you throughout this thread. You live in a deluded fantasy world of your own construct. This fantasy has it's roots in the ancient past of ignorance of heretic Jews and pagans.
I did not misunderstand where you put you trust sir, it's clear. You trust in the concept of the Jesus construct that has been attributed to the legendary person of the NT. The construct would not on it's own stand it requires the freely chosen path of release of reality for the path of delusion in fantasy.
The con is not that which the TV preacher promotes it is far more sinister. It is the con of living in a Matrix of unreality where you have sacrificed your life to the adherence of superstitious ignorance from the ancient unknowing zealots of rebellion. You rebel against life itself and chose death in this life for an answer. You can not see that which you have blocked in your mind. You have as it were filters in your mental processing that alters that which you observe to fit the construct of your fantasies.
mephibosheth (the drinking light is lit)
(On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "if any one thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'" Now this He said about the Sirit, which those who believed in Him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified......So there was a division among the people over Him.)
Even the Jews were appalled by this gory thought. Earlier in John 6, he told them to eat of him, straight out of Wes Craven. Many followed him no more as indicated in verse 66. Please show where there is basis for this concept in Judaism. If you can't do so, it shows how you continue to live in your construct of fantasy denying that which you see and hear. Your acceptance is further blockage of knowledge by your defense mechanisms of ego.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline Even the Jews were appalled by this gory thought. Earlier in John 6, he told them to eat of him, straight out of Wes Craven. Many followed him no more as indicated in verse 66. Please show where there is basis for this concept in Judaism. If you can't do so, it shows how you continue to live in your construct of fantasy denying that which you see and hear. Your acceptance is further blockage of knowledge by your defense mechanisms of ego.
PJTS,
(IT IS WRITTEN SOMEWHERE,)
"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert....
So they asked Him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe You? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat'"
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father Who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me will never go hungry, and he who believes in Me will never be thirsty....
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"...
(pjts),
I didn't want to just give a line or two without context. Clearly there is a metaphor to be understood here. Jesus compares faith in Him to eating. He compares Himself to the most common thing on the table - bread.
Bread begins with sowing, cultivating, reaping, grinding, then the fiery furnace. Eating begins with discovering the flavor, breaking down, taking in, digestion, then taking energy from. All these things are encompassed in faith.
The disobedient Jew's lack of understanding isn't a good model for you. Where will you get following the worst examples. Why didn't you choose David, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Daniel, Joseph, Micah, Gideon, the widow of Zarephath, Samuel, Hannah, Jeremiah, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, Joshua, Nehemiah or Esther?
It reminds me of the cartoon where the girl said to the guy, "I feel terrible about myself as a person too - but do you really think that's enough to build a relationship on?"
mephibosheth
(manna from heaven and water from the rock won't rot your teeth)
Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Even the Jews were appalled by this gory thought. Earlier in John 6, he told them to eat of him, straight out of Wes Craven. Many followed him no more as indicated in verse 66. Please show where there is basis for this concept in Judaism. If you can't do so, it shows how you continue to live in your construct of fantasy denying that which you see and hear. Your acceptance is further blockage of knowledge by your defense mechanisms of ego.
PJTS,
(IT IS WRITTEN SOMEWHERE,)
"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert....
So they asked Him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe You? What will you do? Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat'"
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father Who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me will never go hungry, and he who believes in Me will never be thirsty....
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"...
(pjts),
I didn't want to just give a line or two without context. Clearly there is a metaphor to be understood here. Jesus compares faith in Him to eating. He compares Himself to the most common thing on the table - bread.
Bread begins with sowing, cultivating, reaping, grinding, then the fiery furnace. Eating begins with discovering the flavor, breaking down, taking in, digestion, then taking energy from. All these things are encompassed in faith.
The disobedient Jew's lack of understanding isn't a good model for you. Where will you get following the worst examples. Why didn't you choose David, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Daniel, Joseph, Micah, Gideon, the widow of Zarephath, Samuel, Hannah, Jeremiah, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, Joshua, Nehemiah or Esther?
It reminds me of the cartoon where the girl said to the guy, "I feel terrible about myself as a person too - but do you really think that's enough to build a relationship on?"
mephibosheth
(manna from heaven and water from the rock won't rot your teeth)
I'm pretty sure Paul John will get to this but...
You wrote:
"The disobedient Jew's lack of understanding isn't a good model for you. Where will you get following the worst examples. Why didn't you choose David, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Daniel, Joseph, Micah, Gideon, the widow of Zarephath, Samuel, Hannah, Jeremiah, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, Joshua, Nehemiah or Esther? "
Where did you get that they followed Jesus? Some of them I can see as a pull from Hebrews 11 but not the others.
Which goes back to a question of mine from way back in this thread - if Jesus is the founder of Christianity, why do Christians go back to Paul for source material? Aren't the words of the son of your God enough?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline The disobedient Jew's lack of understanding isn't a good model for you. Where will you get following the worst examples. Why didn't you choose David, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Daniel, Joseph, Micah, Gideon, the widow of Zarephath, Samuel, Hannah, Jeremiah, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite, Joshua, Nehemiah or Esther?
It reminds me of the cartoon where the girl said to the guy, "I feel terrible about myself as a person too - but do you really think that's enough to build a relationship on?"
I know what it says of eating his flesh and the symbology. The point you missed in John 6:66 is all but the 12 seemed to have left him as a result of his blasphemy. The goriness was only the superficial among the followers the rest was putting himself at the level of god.
David was not a person to have as a friend, people who knew him or loved him seemed to die. Moses seems to be the only human that ever got God to change his mind. God wanted to slaughter all of the Israelites but Moses told him, God people will talk what will the Egyptians say of you. Elijah was grabbed by a UFO or so the story sounds. Daniel wrote Sci-Fi he had the wrong king of Persia invading Babylon and conquering the wrong king. His predictions don't rate prophecy as they failed. Joseph, he may have been part of the Hyskos that ruled the Nile Delta.
Micah was a witness to Sennecherib's vengeance against the rebelling King Hezekiah as he lived near Shephelah by Lachish. Lachish was destroyed by siege. Micah did exactly what of significance in your opinion. He made prophecies of the Moshiach you have wrongly interpreted to be Jesus. Micah 5 is not about Jesus at all. Gideon you pick as an example complete with the water drinking lapping myth.
As to Elijah and the widow of Zarepphath it contains much in mythological fantasy. Samuel, yes the annoiter of kings complete with myths as to his calling. Hannah is no doubt Samuel's mother and seemed to be a good Israelite. Jeremiah has many things that are hidden. Was he in fact in collusion with Nabucadnezzar as a spy or was he just trying to save his people? Really Judah was a vassal state of Babylon and Judah's king was in rebellion, so in fact loyalty to Nebuchadnezzar was loyalty to the legal leader. Who can say.
Ruth bears significance as an ancestor to David. Uriah showed loyalty to his king though David was having an affair with his wife and has him killed. This is why being around David was likely to be fatal. Joshua is part of the mythical invasion of Canaan and invades Ai that was already ruins during the period and had been for a thousand years.
Nehemiah may or may not have been a cup bearer to Xerexes/Artaxexes if so he was a eunuch, see Hebrew Bible version. Esther may have helped delay Persian invasions to Greece though she would have been one of many wives. Did she truly hear of a plot to kill the king and learn of planned pogroms? Mythology is so fascinating, who can say.
This trip into Jewish history was for the purpose of seeing how they were excellent examples of Jewish patriots or God believers? I don't see how this helps you. All of them would condemn you as a heretic as Jesus does not meet the requirements of the Moshiach. They did not know Yahweh had a son that needed to save them from sin. Where did God tell the people of Israel he needed to rescind his covenant with Abraham and the Sinai promises?
Your teeth will rot and your body will decay and there will be only the reward that you have gone back to the dust from which you came forth. All the energy you put forth in preaching the word of ancient ignorant savages will be for naught. Though all is not grim you are here today to feel the warmth of the sun. You can see the smiles of your children at play and know the struggle through this life is worth it all if but only for them. Why can't the beauty you see and the wonder of complex problems to be understood be enough. Why create the fantasy dimension of a Matrix in the land of never was? The proof is still out here for you to discover. A life given to belief in the gods of ancient savages is a life wasted. Take the Red Pill and discover the real world.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline This trip into Jewish history was for the purpose of seeing how they were excellent examples of Jewish patriots or God believers? I don't see how this helps you. All of them would condemn you as a heretic as Jesus does not meet the requirements of the Moshiach. They did not know Yahweh had a son that needed to save them from sin. Where did God tell the people of Israel he needed to rescind his covenant with Abraham and the Sinai promises?
Your teeth will rot and your body will decay and there will be only the reward that you have gone back to the dust from which you came forth. All the energy you put forth in preaching the word of ancient ignorant savages will be for naught. Though all is not grim you are here today to feel the warmth of the sun. You can see the smiles of your children at play and know the struggle through this life is worth it all if but only for them. Why can't the beauty you see and the wonder of complex problems to be understood be enough. Why create the fantasy dimension of a Matrix in the land of never was? The proof is still out here for you to discover. A life given to belief in the gods of ancient savages is a life wasted. Take the Red Pill and discover the real world.
pjts,
We do, however speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him" but
God has reveealed it to us by His Spirit.....
Your tour of ignorance displays how the Word of God can be read but not understood by those too smart by half. As for what will happen to me and my teeth, etc, my times are in God's hand - not yours. Your words will rot. God's will live.
mephibosheth
Offline "God the secret" is devil bull shit talk ..... but YES the rulers are mostly fools ..... those words you send need fixing .... can you re- say for the children , or will you own them?
Offline
pjts,
We do, however speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him" but
God has reveealed it to us by His Spirit.....
Your tour of ignorance displays how the Word of God can be read but not understood by those too smart by half. As for what will happen to me and my teeth, etc, my times are in God's hand - not yours. Your words will rot. God's will live.
mephibosheth
Ignorance as in accepting beliefs of the superstitious Jesus that knew not the Earth was a sphere. Or St. John inspired by hatred of Rome to foresee its destruction by stars falling to the Earth or poisoning the seas and waters with wormwood. All those who are not Jews will be allowed to serve god and praise him in the courtyard on a paradise made from ancient values. John embittered by Rome's persecution looked to Daniel, Enoch and Ezekiel to form his hate filled message. This you see as the words of a god?
Jesus demonstrated his complete rationality in the cursing of the inanimate fig tree. He was hungry and saw the tree. Thinking figs would be a good treat the out of sync with realty desert prophet Jesus goes over and finds none. So he curses the poor tree that did nothing but do its natural course. Jesus the son of a god had no clue the tree had no figs because they were out of season. He cursed the tree as if he had hit his thumb with a hammer. This is where you see God? This action alone discredits him as part of a god. Later when the tree has withered and died he tells his followers, ask of God and he will do it for you if you have faith. Why not ask for fig trees to bear fruit out of season or for an orchard of them. Why must it be a destructive act? You see this irrational man as God's son? I see him as a desert prophet too long out in the sun. He showed this many times in his ranting.
All words may rot with time or be forgotten. Achilles is still remembered as is Caesar. Sargon the Akkad is still known as are ancients of the Greeks. You have no idea who will be remembered and who will not. King Tut is rotting but there are people who know of him. You continue to exist in your construct of fantasy. You still have the choice to taste actual steak and not the imaginary one in your Matrix. Take the Red Pill. The real world is still here.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline Hey, Paulism is easy. All you have to do is believe in the Jesus. You can pretty much do whatever you want beyond that.
Christianity and Judaism compels you to actually live a lifestyle that involves doing good for others. Humanism/atheism does that also without the Invisible Friend.
That seems too much like work for the modern "Christian". It's so much easier to take Paul's word on things (even when those words contradict the words of the son of their God).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline Ignorance as in accepting beliefs of the superstitious Jesus that knew not the Earth was a sphere. Or St. John inspired by hatred of Rome to foresee its destruction by stars falling to the Earth or poisoning the seas and waters with wormwood. All those who are not Jews will be allowed to serve god and praise him in the courtyard on a paradise made from ancient values. John embittered by Rome's persecution looked to Daniel, Enoch and Ezekiel to form his hate filled message. This you see as the words of a god?
Jesus demonstrated his complete rationality in the cursing of the inanimate fig tree. He was hungry and saw the tree. Thinking figs would be a good treat the out of sync with realty desert prophet Jesus goes over and finds none. So he curses the poor tree that did nothing but do its natural course. Jesus the son of a god had no clue the tree had no figs because they were out of season. He cursed the tree as if he had hit his thumb with a hammer. This is where you see God? This action alone discredits him as part of a god. Later when the tree has withered and died he tells his followers, ask of God and he will do it for you if you have faith. Why not ask for fig trees to bear fruit out of season or for an orchard of them. Why must it be a destructive act? You see this irrational man as God's son? I see him as a desert prophet too long out in the sun. He showed this many times in his ranting.
All words may rot with time or be forgotten. Achilles is still remembered as is Caesar. Sargon the Akkad is still known as are ancients of the Greeks. You have no idea who will be remembered and who will not. King Tut is rotting but there are people who know of him. You continue to exist in your construct of fantasy. You still have the choice to taste actual steak and not the imaginary one in your Matrix. Take the Red Pill. The real world is still here.
pjts,
So you are doing a study of how Christianity (which you don't believe) and Christ (Who you don't believe) is built on a perversion (this is your talent) of Judaism (which you don't believe) - and you don't believe in the Living God or the Scriptures (that are True and Unmovable) that you study (with the expressed purpose of discrediting). You probably don't even believe you have a spirit.
Yet you're worried about the "poor" professing fig tree - proclaiming to all it had fruit, though out of season, which it didn't - while you proclaim to all here you have a study going. Maybe you should be worried about the fig tree. Maybe you could end up like the fig tree - being form without substance - and be accursed by the Living God.
You're nothing but another turd hammer trying to hit the anvil of God, which you can't even make ring (or vibrate for that matter).
Have a fig newton and take a look up from your bottom feeding position. Maybe the sewage will clear for a moment and you can see a star lit expanse unmoved by your silly professed self appointed study perch. You're pretty entertaining to the heavenly crowd; annoying, but entertaining.
mephibosheth
(He who sits in the heavens laughs....)
Offline pauljohntheskeptic wrote:Ignorance as in accepting beliefs of the superstitious Jesus that knew not the Earth was a sphere. Or St. John inspired by hatred of Rome to foresee its destruction by stars falling to the Earth or poisoning the seas and waters with wormwood. All those who are not Jews will be allowed to serve god and praise him in the courtyard on a paradise made from ancient values. John embittered by Rome's persecution looked to Daniel, Enoch and Ezekiel to form his hate filled message. This you see as the words of a god?
Jesus demonstrated his complete rationality in the cursing of the inanimate fig tree. He was hungry and saw the tree. Thinking figs would be a good treat the out of sync with realty desert prophet Jesus goes over and finds none. So he curses the poor tree that did nothing but do its natural course. Jesus the son of a god had no clue the tree had no figs because they were out of season. He cursed the tree as if he had hit his thumb with a hammer. This is where you see God? This action alone discredits him as part of a god. Later when the tree has withered and died he tells his followers, ask of God and he will do it for you if you have faith. Why not ask for fig trees to bear fruit out of season or for an orchard of them. Why must it be a destructive act? You see this irrational man as God's son? I see him as a desert prophet too long out in the sun. He showed this many times in his ranting.
All words may rot with time or be forgotten. Achilles is still remembered as is Caesar. Sargon the Akkad is still known as are ancients of the Greeks. You have no idea who will be remembered and who will not. King Tut is rotting but there are people who know of him. You continue to exist in your construct of fantasy. You still have the choice to taste actual steak and not the imaginary one in your Matrix. Take the Red Pill. The real world is still here.
pjts,
"So you are doing a study of how Christianity (which you don't believe) and Christ (Who you don't believe) is built on a perversion (this is your talent) of Judaism (which you don't believe) - and you don't believe in the Living God or the Scriptures (that are True and Unmovable) that you study (with the expressed purpose of discrediting). You probably don't even believe you have a spirit.
Yet you're worried about the "poor" professing fig tree - proclaiming to all it had fruit, though out of season, which it didn't - while you proclaim to all here you have a study going. Maybe you should be worried about the fig tree. Maybe you could end up like the fig tree - being form without substance - and be accursed by the Living God.
You're nothing but another turd hammer trying to hit the anvil of God, which you can't even make ring (or vibrate for that matter).
Have a fig newton and take a look up from your bottom feeding position. Maybe the sewage will clear for a moment and you can see a star lit expanse unmoved by your silly professed self appointed study perch. You're pretty entertaining to the heavenly crowd; annoying, but entertaining.
mephibosheth
(He who sits in the heavens laughs....)
Y'know meph, there is an advantage in knowing that you ignore what I write. It means I can ask you questions and make comments revealing the problems in your reasoning knowing that you're so frightened of the self-examination that you won't respond to me. Then again, this is all a faith thing for you - no thought required.
Now, to what you wrote:
"So you are doing a study of how Christianity (which you don't believe) and Christ (Who you don't believe) is built on a perversion (this is your talent) of Judaism (which you don't believe) - and you don't believe in the Living God or the Scriptures (that are True and Unmovable) that you study (with the expressed purpose of discrediting). You probably don't even believe you have a spirit. "
1. Do you really mean that a person can't study the Scripture without fully believing in what it says without question? If so, please don't cite Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel's work. If you believe their stories, they were atheists when they started also. McDowell was (according to his claim) trying to discredit the Scriptures when he penned "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". It also leaves you with the impossibility of having to be a Christian before you can be a Christian.
2. And why do you believe the Scriptures are true and unmovable? Because they say so, of course. Circular logic is wonderful.
"Yet you're worried about the "poor" professing fig tree - proclaiming to all it had fruit, though out of season, which it didn't - while you proclaim to all here you have a study going. Maybe you should be worried about the fig tree. Maybe you could end up like the fig tree - being form without substance - and be accursed by the Living God. "
And somehow your omniscient Lord didn't know that? Also, fig trees won't produce (it's a flower not a fruit) under drought stress (but will still show leaves). This information comes from various and sundry sites on growing figs - again, something your omniscient Lord should have known.
"
You're nothing but another turd hammer trying to hit the anvil of God, which you can't even make ring (or vibrate for that matter).
Have a fig newton and take a look up from your bottom feeding position. Maybe the sewage will clear for a moment and you can see a star lit expanse unmoved by your silly professed self appointed study perch. You're pretty entertaining to the heavenly crowd; annoying, but entertaining. "
You do know your view of man violates Scripture, don't you? Hebrews 2:7 states " You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor"
It also describes Jesus with the same terms in Hebrews 2:9. Nice to know that Jesus was/is a bottom-feeder in your eyes also.
But wait, I can't read Scripture properly without the tutelage of the prophet mephibosheth , can I?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline So you are doing a study of how Christianity (which you don't believe) and Christ (Who you don't believe) is built on a perversion (this is your talent) of Judaism (which you don't believe) - and you don't believe in the Living God or the Scriptures (that are True and Unmovable) that you study (with the expressed purpose of discrediting). You probably don't even believe you have a spirit.
Exactly.
My talent lies in the detached observation of the ancient words of the unknowing without subscribing to their superstitious beliefs in fantasy.
Yet you're worried about the "poor" professing fig tree - proclaiming to all it had fruit, though out of season, which it didn't - while you proclaim to all here you have a study going. Maybe you should be worried about the fig tree. Maybe you could end up like the fig tree - being form without substance - and be accursed by the Living God.
The fig tree incident is but a crack in the weak theology of Christian belief for your Son of God exposed himself for the delirious desert prophet rebel leader that he was. The later words in Mark are nothing but an attempt to cover up the faux pas he made with his temper tantrum. He should have found something else to eat before he went to the Temple that day. On his empty stomach he loses control again attacking those doing business in the financial center at the Temple. After he committed crimes of rebellion, assault, assault & battery, public disturbance, and disruption of trade he was clearly in rebellion against the established authority of Rome. This made him into an insurrectionist and an enemy of the State not that he hadn't committed other acts of rebellion against Rome already. This time it was not to be ignored and he and his disciples were clearly part of the movement to expel Rome from their lands. He thus became a wanted rebel and when caught was executed as were all who defied Rome. His fellow rebel captain John the Baptist was executed for his popularity and threat to Herod. Jesus' actions showed him to be another in the group of rebels attempting to rid the land of the Roman invader. As a rebel attempting to free his people from the invader he is to be admired as your false Messiah he is not.
You're nothing but another turd hammer trying to hit the anvil of God, which you can't even make ring (or vibrate for that matter).
Such venom.
The truth is out there. Open your eyes and ears and allow reality to penetrate your poisoned mind and see your fantasy evaporate as dust into the wind.
Have a fig newton and take a look up from your bottom feeding position. Maybe the sewage will clear for a moment and you can see a star lit expanse unmoved by your silly professed self appointed study perch. You're pretty entertaining to the heavenly crowd; annoying, but entertaining.
Thanks sir.
Perhaps the mist will clear to allow your self deception to crack as in the fig tree incident just long enough for realization it is you that cannot see though the murky waters.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline And somehow your omniscient Lord didn't know that? Also, fig trees won't produce (it's a flower not a fruit) under drought stress (but will still show leaves). This information comes from various and sundry sites on growing figs - again, something your omniscient Lord should have known.
But wait, I can't read Scripture properly without the tutelage of the prophet mephibosheth , can I?
That was my point he completely ignored as he lives in the land of never was in his own construct of fantasy. I personally do not grasp how anyone would not see how Jesus demonstrated his total lack of omniscience in this event. It alone is sufficient to discredit him as part of God not to mention it shows just how temperamental he was. Obviously it must be us that have a problem in that we haven't allowed the poisonous virus of irrational fantasy to infect our minds. It couldn't be that he is the one living in a delusion of his own construction now could it?
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline You're nothing but another turd hammer trying to hit the anvil of God, which you can't even make ring (or vibrate for that matter).Have a fig newton and take a look up from your bottom feeding position. Maybe the sewage will clear for a moment and you can see a star lit expanse unmoved by your silly professed self appointed study perch. You're pretty entertaining to the heavenly crowd; annoying, but entertaining.
mephibosheth
(He who sits in the heavens laughs....)
"Turdhammer" ? "Sewage" ? ...oookay..well, love and kisses to you too, I'm sure.
That's good honest hate there with venom of asps. Or are people supposed to ignore what doesn't apply to them, like you said before ? But sir, you don't have anything but contempt to offer. Basically, your posts are nothing but your version of "fuck you, and here's a couple of bible verses".
If you do not agree with other people's opinions, but have no real arguments to back up your own, then why not just say so and leave it at that ? Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish with all these personal attacks ? Are you hoping to provoke people into matching your insults, so you can claim victimhood once again ?
Please sir, don't just ignore the arguments and attack the people making them. Read PJ and JC's posts again, and if the only response you can think of is yet more insults, just don't bother.
Offline 1. Do you really mean that a person can't study the Scripture without fully believing in what it says without question? If so, please don't cite Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel's work. If you believe their stories, they were atheists when they started also. McDowell was (according to his claim) trying to discredit the Scriptures when he penned "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". It also leaves you with the impossibility of having to be a Christian before you can be a Christian.
But wait, I can't read Scripture properly without the tutelage of the prophet mephibosheth , can I?
jcg,
Yes, this is my position: You can't understand the Scriptures unless God opens your eyes to it. I want to quickly say that my position doesn't include this last statement of yours, but I think you knew that isn't my attitude.
Jesus is the Door of the sheepfold. You are promised that if you come to Him He won't turn you away. There is plenty to convict a heart that honestly wants to come to God in Christ. The door is open to you to downsize and come humbly to God in Christ. I think you hit your ankles on the door jamb now. You can't waltz in like that to God. You don't bring anything to God but a contrite heart, understanding He is God - not you. You are a beggar at the door rightly seen.
Just as Pharaoh had no fear of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the fear of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no fear of God before your eyes. Neither is there understanding of God behind your eyes of what your eyes see as Scripture. The prince of this world has blinded your eyes to it. Your attitude keeps you from it. I don't mean your attitude toward me - who cares about that. I mean your attitude toward God. You can't say things like you say about God and Jesus and have anything but a spiritual void about God and His Word. You can repeat words found in Scripture like Hitler did, but that doesn't mean you grasp it any more than you grasp the source of the world before you.
You glory in the faith you gave up on - which is an example of glorying in something you should be ashamed of. Sure, every ounce of faith God gives will be tested. You say you had an ounce or so, maybe a pound for all I know, but you didn't hold up in the test - you gave up as I understand it, and you glory in that as if it is a badge of honor (which it probably is on this web site). But in reality you are like a traitor - not really an honor to either the one you betrayed or the one you try to betray to. Sure, now, you take every shot available at faith because you see your failing in the faithful. And as far as turning back you have dug a big hole for yourself. Of course God could deliver you from it all if you repented and came to Him with a broken and contrite heart. The sun melts one and hardens another. My guess is you will only be hardened more with any effort to melt you.
But my honest desire before God is that you would repent and be restored in your faith. I'm sure you don't see my efforts in that light - but let that illustrate the problem you have understanding the Scriptures. I tell you the truth that my desire is for your good - now see if you believe that even though it is true. I'm saying you are blind to the Scriptures and also spring-trapped against any effort to turn you back to the faith you abandoned.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
mephibosheth (honoring those who fear the Lord not those who forsake Him)
Offline jcgadfly wrote:
But wait, I can't read Scripture properly without the tutelage of the prophet mephibosheth , can I?
Yes, this is my position: You can't understand the Scriptures unless God opens your eyes to it. I want to quickly say that my position doesn't include this last statement of yours, but I think you knew that isn't my attitude.
Just as Pharaoh had no fear of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the fear of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no fear of God before your eyes. Neither is there understanding of God behind your eyes of what your eyes see as Scripture.
Has someone forgot that God never intended the unnamed pharaoh to ever do anything but resist. He on purpose hardened his heart, see Exodus 7:3. So God took his free will and manipulated it to his own ends. Sounds like a swell deity to me.
The prince of this world has blinded your eyes to it. Your attitude keeps you from it. I don't mean your attitude toward me - who cares about that. I mean your attitude toward God. You can't say things like you say about God and Jesus and have anything but a spiritual void about God and His Word. You can repeat words found in Scripture like Hitler did, but that doesn't mean you grasp it any more than you grasp the source of the world before you.
I personally subscribe to the concept your Satan was not the evil entity you say. If he was cast from God and Paradise please explain why he was allowed to go to and fro into heaven and stand in the presence of God in the Book of Job. Satan has been misrepresented as evil when all he has done is God's will as his prosecutor. Number of people eradicated by God in the OT millions, number killed by Satan = zero. Your snake in Genesis is not seen as Satan by most Jews, though you probably think he was.
You glory in the faith you gave up on - which is an example of glorying in something you should be ashamed of. Sure, every ounce of faith God gives will be tested. You say you had an ounce or so, maybe a pound for all I know, but you didn't hold up in the test - you gave up as I understand it, and you glory in that as if it is a badge of honor (which it probably is on this web site). But in reality you are like a traitor - not really an honor to either the one you betrayed or the one you try to betray to. Sure, now, you take every shot available at faith because you see your failing in the faithful. And as far as turning back you have dug a big hole for yourself. Of course God could deliver you from it all if you repented and came to Him with a broken and contrite heart. The sun melts one and hardens another. My guess is you will only be hardened more with any effort to melt you.
It's you that should be ashamed. As a believer in Christianity you have the blood of all those that have been killed and tortured in the name of God or Jesus as your inheritance. You glorify the one that uses people as pawns to be sacrificed in gory deaths. Speaking of traitors you are one to human existence. You condemn this world and all in it and instead glorify the warped killer you call God.
But my honest desire before God is that you would repent and be restored in your faith. I'm sure you don't see my efforts in that light - but let that illustrate the problem you have understanding the Scriptures. I tell you the truth that my desire is for your good - now see if you believe that even though it is true. I'm saying you are blind to the Scriptures and also spring-trapped against any effort to turn you back to the faith you abandoned.
I'm sure it is while mine is that you see reality and come out of your fantasy matrix. My desire is for your good as well it is dangerous playing in fantasy in the real world. Reality will always win not a constructed fantasy in the land of never was.
I am in fact blind to your perversion of interpretation. I know and understand your belief but realize it is not real. Take the Red Pill and discover the real world, its still out here.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline It's you that should be ashamed. As a believer in Christianity you have the blood of all those that have been killed and tortured in the name of God or Jesus as your inheritance. You glorify the one that uses people as pawns to be sacrificed in gory deaths. Speaking of traitors you are one to human existence. You condemn this world and all in it and instead glorify the warped killer you call God.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Offline
Just as Pharaoh had no FEAR of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the FEAR of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no FEAR of God before your eyes.
How endearing that fear plays such a large part of your relationship with God. Yes, your god is truly a fearsome, wrathful deity and completely deserving of a fearful reaction. I could never worship, much less love, a god who bases his relationship with humanity upon the fear of punishment.
Offline mephibosheth wrote:
Just as Pharaoh had no FEAR of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the FEAR of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no FEAR of God before your eyes.
How endearing that fear plays such a large part of your relationship with God. Yes, your god is truly a fearsome, wrathful deity and completely deserving of a fearful reaction. I could never worship, much less love, a god who bases his relationship with humanity upon the fear of punishment.
Even if "fear" is taken as the Christians intend (a healthy respect), there is still the question of "What has Yahweh done that is worthy of respect?". Looking at the Bible, not a whole lot.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline Yes, this is my position: You can't understand the Scriptures unless God opens your eyes to it. I want to quickly say that my position doesn't include this last statement of yours, but I think you knew that isn't my attitude.Jesus is the Door of the sheepfold. You are promised that if you come to Him He won't turn you away. There is plenty to convict a heart that honestly wants to come to God in Christ. The door is open to you to downsize and come humbly to God in Christ. I think you hit your ankles on the door jamb now. You can't waltz in like that to God. You don't bring anything to God but a contrite heart, understanding He is God - not you. You are a beggar at the door rightly seen.
Just as Pharaoh had no fear of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the fear of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no fear of God before your eyes. Neither is there understanding of God behind your eyes of what your eyes see as Scripture. The prince of this world has blinded your eyes to it. Your attitude keeps you from it. I don't mean your attitude toward me - who cares about that. I mean your attitude toward God. You can't say things like you say about God and Jesus and have anything but a spiritual void about God and His Word. You can repeat words found in Scripture like Hitler did, but that doesn't mean you grasp it any more than you grasp the source of the world before you.
You glory in the faith you gave up on - which is an example of glorying in something you should be ashamed of. Sure, every ounce of faith God gives will be tested. You say you had an ounce or so, maybe a pound for all I know, but you didn't hold up in the test - you gave up as I understand it, and you glory in that as if it is a badge of honor (which it probably is on this web site). But in reality you are like a traitor - not really an honor to either the one you betrayed or the one you try to betray to. Sure, now, you take every shot available at faith because you see your failing in the faithful. And as far as turning back you have dug a big hole for yourself. Of course God could deliver you from it all if you repented and came to Him with a broken and contrite heart. The sun melts one and hardens another. My guess is you will only be hardened more with any effort to melt you.
But my honest desire before God is that you would repent and be restored in your faith. I'm sure you don't see my efforts in that light - but let that illustrate the problem you have understanding the Scriptures. I tell you the truth that my desire is for your good - now see if you believe that even though it is true. I'm saying you are blind to the Scriptures and also spring-trapped against any effort to turn you back to the faith you abandoned.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
mephibosheth (honoring those who fear the Lord not those who forsake Him)
Okay, this is a little better. The insults are more veiled here, not so much out in the open. Although it's a little much to call people traitors for rejecting blind faith, and that "see if you believe that even though it is true" line is rude and uncalled for.
Still, I can tell you made a conscious effort here not to offend people too much, and I really appreciate that. Thank you.
What's still unfortunatly unchanged is the theatrical language you insist on using. It makes it really hard to figure out what point you're trying to make, and it really doesn't add much meaning to any argument you might have. Basically, all you have here is a whole bunch of claims you can't back up, and I can get that from any faith. They can make it all sound pretty too, so what makes your brand so different ? That you're right and they're not ? I can get that as well from all the other faiths.
"You can't understand the Scriptures unless God opens your eyes to it" ? Ah, but how can we know it's God who's opening your eyes ? Could be Satan. Hey, don't look at me. This is your mess. I don't believe in either of them.
Seriously sir, how can anyone know if your understanding of the bible isn't the interpretation of Satan ? Because you say so ?
"The prince of this world has blinded your eyes to it". He can do that ? Really ? Well, if that's true, then why can't he be doing the same to you ? I'm sorry sir, but by your own definition, this Satan guy is simply too powerful for us poor mortals to tell who's strings he's pulling. You've really preached yourself into a corner now, sir.
There's plenty more in your post that needs explaining, but I'll leave it here for now.
All the best to you.
Offline "You glory in the faith you gave up on - which is an example of glorying in something you should be ashamed of. Sure, every ounce of faith God gives will be tested. You say you had an ounce or so, maybe a pound for all I know, but you didn't hold up in the test - you gave up as I understand it, and you glory in that as if it is a badge of honor (which it probably is on this web site). But in reality you are like a traitor - not really an honor to either the one you betrayed or the one you try to betray to. Sure, now, you take every shot available at faith because you see your failing in the faithful. And as far as turning back you have dug a big hole for yourself. Of course God could deliver you from it all if you repented and came to Him with a broken and contrite heart. The sun melts one and hardens another. My guess is you will only be hardened more with any effort to melt you."
This paragraph is an example of why I call you "prophet".
Basically you're saying, "You may say you followed Christianity and had Christ in your heart but unless you followed it in exactly the way I have and have exactly as much Jesus in you as I do - your experience wasn't real".
As each human experiences Christ differently and yours is the only real way, can anyone be saved?
If heaven exists, you're going to be awfully lonely there.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline ProzacDeathWish wrote:Even if "fear" is taken as the Christians intend (a healthy respect), there is still the question of "What has Yahweh done that is worthy of respect?". Looking at the Bible, not a whole lot.mephibosheth wrote:
Just as Pharaoh had no FEAR of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the FEAR of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no FEAR of God before your eyes.
How endearing that fear plays such a large part of your relationship with God. Yes, your god is truly a fearsome, wrathful deity and completely deserving of a fearful reaction. I could never worship, much less love, a god who bases his relationship with humanity upon the fear of punishment.
Why downgrade fear to "a healthy respect" ? I don't believe respect would be the proper emotion when facing the threat of eternal torture. Do you truly believe that God's judgment is not being referenced here ? If that is not the case then where does this fear that meph apparently can't stop talking ( ie, threatening ) about come from?
Offline jcgadfly wrote:ProzacDeathWish wrote:Even if "fear" is taken as the Christians intend (a healthy respect), there is still the question of "What has Yahweh done that is worthy of respect?". Looking at the Bible, not a whole lot.mephibosheth wrote:
Just as Pharaoh had no FEAR of God neither do you. Just as the plagues hardened his heart rather than instructed it you are not learning the FEAR of God from life's instruction. You don't understand your position before God. There is no FEAR of God before your eyes.
How endearing that fear plays such a large part of your relationship with God. Yes, your god is truly a fearsome, wrathful deity and completely deserving of a fearful reaction. I could never worship, much less love, a god who bases his relationship with humanity upon the fear of punishment.
Why downgrade fear to "a healthy respect" ? I don't believe respect would be the proper emotion when facing the threat of eternal torture. Do you truly believe that God's judgment is not being referenced here ? If that is not the case then where does this fear that meph apparently can't stop talking ( ie, threatening ) about come from?
I don't truly believe any of it - that's just what I was taught when I was a Christian. I was taught to compare it to electricity - respect what can kill you if improperly handled.
As for meph - I think he just likes to emphasize God's wrath for all of the apostates here. God loves us but unless we kiss his ass exactly the way meph wants us to - LOOK OUT!
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
PJTS,
I have been wanting to discuss this with you. The way I understand it you think Christianity grew out of a false interpretation of Judaism and you focus on the fundamental of whether man is basically good (just needs some tweaking and remodeling) or basically bad (spiritually dead and needs resurrection).
You are asking this as I understand it: Since the perspective of Jesus is man is spiritually dead and can only have life by being "born again" in Him - how can that be accurately built on the Jewish faith which understood it differently?
Are you asking when the Israelites went wrong in their response to God's direction or when they understood they had gone wrong?
If you are asking when they went wrong - it seemed to be continually. The pathetic condition of fallen man was such that even with God working personally with them as a nation first hand fallen man was pretty pathetic. They quickly lost faith in God even after going through the Red Sea and three days later weren't trusting God to give them water.
They tried to substitute ceremony for serving God from the heart. Their "lips were with God" but not their heart.
All the Israelites didn't go wrong you know. There was the faithful remnant who followed the example of the faith of Abraham.
Since you want to discuss this I'll listen to what you say to this so far.....
mephibosheth
Cool , more discussion, about the only miracle, "g a w e d" , > existence < , all the rest is dogma ! My favorite dogma is science !
God ??? , don't ask why , ask how , them buddhas suggested ..... sorta kinda like i think maybe .... Oh , and don't make god shit up ..... try thinking (meditate, go for common simple sense, don't pray as in idol worship), humm what does that tell ya? Buddha said, fix my fucking words !
Buddha is an ancient atheist Icon .... Thing is, Jesus is too ! ..... Then there are the religion dogma versions
GOD < I AM , what else could WE possibly be ?!!! 
Atheism Books.
Agreed then we shall discuss these differences.
I am not interested in discrediting your views there is no point in such discussion, you have shown immunity to all of the rational arguments presented by my fellow atheists. My interest is for knowledge only, there are no prizes to be won and no possibility of conversion to the other viewpoint. I can't be responsible for the actions of other posters who are always free to debate.
As you believe the Christian view I was interested if you had considered where they went wrong and how. It seems you have.
As all paths have an origin where did Adam & his descendants begin this journey down the wrong road?
As Jews do not see man as spiritually dead but born pure of soul the difference is substantial. The pure soul concept must have somehow been corrupted to morph into the Christian idea of born with sin. What is your understanding of how this occurred?
The ceremonies came later in the development of Judaism at Sinai and later. Jews look to Sinai as the 2ND Covenant with God, the 1st was in the Garden. I know you think Jesus replaced this Covenant but 1st look at the early beliefs to gain understanding.
I understand all of the ancient Israelites did not fall from God's grace as continuation of the race alone supports as does the action at Sinai where those on the Lord's side continued existence.
I suggest moving my discussion with you to the thread I started so as not to disturb the intention of your thread.
found here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13848
Paul John the Skeptical Researching Ex-Christian Non-Believer Relapsed Catholic Heretic
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
PJTS,
It is written: "How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"
You might say, well, "I can't believe in Jesus". Just before Jesus made the above statement He ask the man who had been crippled and sitting, waiting, beside the pool of Bethesda, "Do you want to get well?" He did. Jesus told him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." The man did it, he responded with faith and got up and walked.
You might have some reason why you "can't believe" in Jesus, and "can't get up and walk". I don't know what it is. But, like this man waiting for what appears to be a superstitious solution, you can waste a lot of time looking for the solution in the wrong places. Faith in Jesus is the transforming answer to your questions.
I believe (as this thread starts) Jesus is the Son of God. He has proved that in every way and is continuing to prove that today. He proved that even to being separated from His Father - this on top of unbelievable physical torture, un - comprehensible spiritual agony. He was forsaken because He took our place on the Cross - so we would never be forsaken.
I totally trust Jesus' interpretation of the Old Testament - and the more I study it the more it matches up with the heart of God in Christ.
I'm not interested in moving or going further with your study. I think you are trying to do it with your impressions of Christianity and its roots in Judaism.
God told Adam and Eve "In the day you eat of it you will die". The serpent said, "you won't die, you will become wise like God". They did die. Right after that God gave the promise of the mystery of the Gospel - planned before the creation of the world. The seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head - the serpent would bruise Jesus' heel.
The Passover lamb illustrated the coming Gospel message - the Lamb of God would deliver us from the Egypt of our sin. The knife came down at the hands of the high priest - at just the right time. The veil in front of the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom - the veil represents the flesh of the Lamb of God. We now can enter the presence of God through Jesus' Sacrifice.
mephibosheth (it's not a question with me - and without faith in Jesus there's no answer for you)
Can you present some evidence that Jesus is still proving himself to be the son of God today? As my understanding goes, the bloke doesn't actually have a physical form on the Earth today. So have you actually met him? Does he speak Hebrew or can he also speak English? Have you seen him with your waking eyes? Did he come to you in a dream? He may have done, I assume all Christians have a dream about Jesus at some point, because its someone they believe exists. Dreams aren't real! Just to clear up some facts, they're just mental states caused by part of the brain which doesn't actually sleep.
Atheist Books
As Moses promoted the adherence to the Law, the coming of the Messiah someday (even see Paul's misconstrued reading of the Torah) all this says is Jesus was teaching the standard Jewish belief. This is no help to my understanding of the differences.
So far all I see is misinterpretation of ancient Jewish beliefs by Gentiles.
The New Testament only convinced me Jesus thought he was the Moshiach. Thinking and proof are two different things. He may have been a desert prophet involved in a pacifist rebellion against Rome but little more is shown in the NT.
Actually its probably Paul's interpretation of the Hebrew Bible and a Greek translation at that.
This is one of your first errors in interpretation. Generally Jews believe man was mortal from the start. The threat of you will surely die was an immediate sentence in some interpretations. God according to this view showed them mercy and allowed their continued existence.
Since you have no interest in understanding the basis of your religion there is probably nothing of value you could contribute anyway, so its just as well.
Two vivid analogies distorted from Judaism.
Since it seems you have nothing of value to contribute to my research as well as your stated reluctance to participate I will be on my way.
*Packs notebook and recorder into knapsack and walks out into the vast distance of the unknown*
Paul John the Researcher Explorer Ex-Christian Non-Believer Relapsed Catholic Heretic
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.