what faith you
Offline
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it.
I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple.
I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me.
Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
Offline Anonymoose wrote:mephibosheth wrote:I have heard some women today define any sex as rape.Anonymoose wrote:Yeah, so ? I've heard you say some pretty weird things too. That doesn't mean they're true.
Anonymoose - not verified,
No, it doesn't mean they're right that all sex is rape. But how are you, a rudderless non-verified vessel, going to be sure and set your course in this world? First land for you in your whirlwind would be the north star.
In other words: how are you to determine the feminists aren't right that all sex is rape and whether all your other definitions of life are right or wrong? Isn't their "self determined righteousness" and everybody else's (who plays that game) just as valid as yours by your own definition?
What do you do? Take a poll? Then, is the majority right or wrong? And who words the poll? Who reads and reports the poll? (life's too long or short for that)
- mephibosheth (moving right along....)
Anonymoose wrote:mephibosheth wrote:No, I don't think that. If you re-read all your posts, you'll find that's actually what you think. I'm just suggesting we might have learned a thing or two about right and wrong since 2000 years ago.Surely you don't think your form of righteousness and your world view applies to all generations and cultures.
Anonymoose - not verified,
Yes, in this you are right. I do think God's form of Righteousness does apply to all generations. It does however lend itself to mis characterization by ignorant men or women who don't understand what they are talking about. I read that fact in Scripture and see it well modeled by you.
mephibosheth
(Unless the LORD builds the house those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain)
Unless your definition matches up with the LORD's definition - it's a worthless definition;
(however, God does still love you in your undefined state. He clearly defined that fact on the Cross of Christ.)
1. I always find it amusing that Christians (the ultimate relativists - do whatever you want, you can always get forgiven...wait, Paul said if you're under grace there is no sin. Never mind, you can go to heaven no matter what you do as long as you believe) refer to the people who live by the laws of a society as having "rudderless vessels".
2. God's form of righteousness? God's definition? According to who, The OT writers, Jesus, Paul or your own interpretation? That's the fun of Biblical interpretation - everyone's interpretation can be God's.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline No, it doesn't mean they're right that all sex is rape. But how are you, a rudderless non-verified vessel, going to be sure and set your course in this world? First land for you in your whirlwind would be the north star.
Beg pardon ?
In other words:
Thank you.
how are you to determine the feminists aren't right that all sex is rape and whether all your other definitions of life are right or wrong?
Well sir, first of all, saying that all feminists think all sex is rape is an unfair generalisation. I know this because I just googled feminists. Also, my aunt describes herself as a feminist, and she likes sex quite a lot.
There may be some women who think all sex is rape, but since there all also women who, as girls, got raped on a daily basis by their fathers, and may because of that experience have some lasting negative feelings towards that particular activity, I tend not to hold that opinion against them.
As for how I found out that all sex isn't rape, well, I should think that's fairly obvious. I had some. Fairly recently, in fact, with a person who said they wanted some and enjoyed it quite a lot. (high five !) (Uh...please don't tell my parents)
Anyway, the point is I determined all that without opening a bible or even thinking of one. Really sir, information is all around us. I can't for the life of me understand why I should ignore it all.
As for how I determine the veracity of all my other "definitions of life", I should think that's fairly obvious too. I test them against reality, and adapt them to it if they fail.
Isn't their "self determined righteousness" and everybody else's (who plays that game) just as valid as yours by your own definition?
I don't really know what "game" you're referring to.
If I understand you correctly, you are now calling my "definitions of life" nothing more than "self-determined righteousness". I just told you they were subject to reality, so how can they be "self-determined" ? Even the bits of reality I don't personally like very much are going to form my "definitions", so "righteousness" is a bit farfetched as well.
But you wanted to know how I determine who's in the right whenever I encounter an opposing opinion. Simple : I ask questions. That way I can find out if this opinion is based on facts, or if the person in question is pulling it out of their backside.
You may have noticed I've been asking you lots of questions.
What do you do?
I ask questions, I do research, I do whatever I have to do to find out what this opposing opinion is based on. If it's based on facts, then obviously, these are facts I wasn't aware of before, so I will adapt my own opinion to them.
But if the opposing opinion is based on hot air and wishful thinking, I will simply wonder why, and leave my own opinion unchanged.
Boring, sure, but hey, you asked.
Take a poll? Then, is the majority right or wrong? And who words the poll? Who reads and reports the poll?
Lol, no. Polls are useless. They keep getting crashed by popular bloggers.
I do think God's form of Righteousness does apply to all generations. It does however lend itself to mis characterization by ignorant men or women who don't understand what they are talking about. I read that fact in Scripture and see it well modeled by you.
I was kinda hoping you would put it like that. You see, this brings to light, once again, a rather interesting problem : You say that Scripture says that ignorant men and women will misinterpret the bible. How can you know you're not one of them ? How could you possibly know for sure ?
mephibosheth
(Unless the LORD builds the house those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain)
Maybe He's building my house. Maybe He's watching over my city and not even looking at yours. You have no way of knowing for sure.
Unless your definition matches up with the LORD's definition - it's a worthless definition
Still waiting for the LORD's definition of rape and genocide.
;(however, God does still love you in your undefined state. He clearly defined that fact on the Cross of Christ.)
Which brings up the same problem yet again. You see, I just asked another Christian how God feels about me, and it turns out that no, God does not love me at all. In fact, he wants to see me stoned to death. Not once, but twice ! Now I know from experience, that depending on which Christian I ask, and what mood they're in at the time, God's opinion of me seems to change by the micro-second. And yet all of them are 100% sure, all of them are unshakeable in their fate that they are right. Just like you.
So tell me, sir, who should I believe ? Which Christian holds the truth ? Is it you ?
Offline
1. I always find it amusing that Christians (the ultimate relativists - do whatever you want, you can always get forgiven...wait, Paul said if you're under grace there is no sin. Never mind, you can go to heaven no matter what you do as long as you believe) refer to the people who live by the laws of a society as having "rudderless vessels".
2. God's form of righteousness? God's definition? According to who, The OT writers, Jesus, Paul or your own interpretation? That's the fun of Biblical interpretation - everyone's interpretation can be God's.
Hey jcgadfly, I just has to compliment you on these two observations. They are so spot on ! You see through all the religious bull shit and strip it down to the naked truth.
Offline Blind Chance,
The genocide question. (You didn't mention Noah's time when all the world except Noah and family were wiped out). We aren't given a back stage pass on a lot of those. There are hints. If you don't have faith in God's Righteousness, that God is Love, etc, you see you are challenging His decision; however a small child doesn't understand the why of a lot of the parent's rules and decisions either. I think the comparison works. If you accept that God is Right in His judgments though all the details aren't revealed it is because you have faith in God. (I don't know of a time when rape was justified).
There isn't anything I know of in the Bible against understanding our world if I understand your question.
You don't accept the first part of the "Trust in the Lord with all your heart" - so you lean to your own understanding (opposite of the last half of the scripture). You challenge the actions therefore of the Lord. I think the Righteousness of the Lord is proved leaving no doubt when Jesus His Son dies for our sins. That totally displays the heart of God and His desire to save us. I therefore don't have any question about why God wiped out cities or the whole world (Noah).
I don't follow those words "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" blindly. It all makes sense when you Trust in the Lord .... You "taste and see that the Lord is good".
mephibosheth
Sorry to said that meph, but you completly failed in my eyes as human being...I don't care who you are: a god or semi-god warlord/leader ( oh yes we had and have leaders like that ) I will still call genocide, murder, lack of tolerance and rape, genocide, murder, lack of tolerance and rape PERIOD If you believe in that kind of God and still call him Love, you are really blind.
One hint: if you speak with people try to avoid preacher language, it doesn't help you at all, it just annoys people. I usually laugh or fall asleep when I have to listen priest's sermons. There is no things you can't explain using clear statements without quasi intelligent preaching.
You still didn't answer what your religion has to offer to people.
Ecrasez l'infame!
Offline I have been following this thread for approximately 2 months and had long since stopped because of our interlocutor's amusing capacity for doublethink. It appears he has not disappointed. On page 27, he asserted that nothing has since shaken the original post. I find this assertion stunning given that anyone who reads the first sixteen tortorous pages will see that after a great deal of arm-twisting, I forced him to admit that he could not possibly hold a meaningful debate on the manner, and forced him to retract the position- twice (perhaps its a memory problem).
For example - "boom" then billions of years of evolution (your belief)
This is incorrect. I presume by biological evolution, you are referring to the process that began on Earth after the origin of DNA as a self-replicative system in concordance with a set of sealed membrane vescicles which form under thermodynamically favorable conditions in the dipolar environment of water. However, this process in turn was preceded by a long and equally complex process of chemical evolution by which ribonucleic acids and the precursors of ribosomes and peptidyl-transferases developed. This process in turn, was anteceded by the formation of the biosphere, terrestrial planets forming as a result of the gravitational well that acts upon the raw materials for a terrestrial planet due to the field strength of the star in question (ours being the sun). All of these processes are long and complex, and are not spontaneous "booms". Hence, by "boom" I presume you are referring to the transition event that occured approximately 13.7 billion years ago. This event is commonly referred to as the Big Bang.
If you are genuinely interested in the causal chain of events that occured during these processes, then I invite you to read this response I presented to another debater. I trust this is enough detail and enough complexity to answer your question:
This response will address for you how stars form, how planets form, how chemical evolution works, the processes by which our universe works, and our explanations for them, based on testable, verifiable, facts, a concept which you seem incacapable of grasping. Hence, I present to you, my gift:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13994?page=2
All you have to do is scroll down. My post is hard to miss.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Offline I have been following this thread for approximately 2 months and had long since stopped because of our interlocutor's amusing capacity for doublethink. It appears he has not disappointed. On page 27, he asserted that nothing has since shaken the original post. I find this assertion stunning given that anyone who reads the first sixteen tortorous pages will see that after a great deal of arm-twisting, I forced him to admit that he could not possibly hold a meaningful debate on the manner, and forced him to retract the position- twice (perhaps its a memory problem).
Quote:For example - "boom" then billions of years of evolution (your belief)
This is incorrect. I presume by biological evolution, you are referring to the process that began on Earth after the origin of DNA as a self-replicative system in concordance with a set of sealed membrane vescicles which form under thermodynamically favorable conditions in the dipolar environment of water. However, this process in turn was preceded by a long and equally complex process of chemical evolution by which ribonucleic acids and the precursors of ribosomes and peptidyl-transferases developed. This process in turn, was anteceded by the formation of the biosphere, terrestrial planets forming as a result of the gravitational well that acts upon the raw materials for a terrestrial planet due to the field strength of the star in question (ours being the sun). All of these processes are long and complex, and are not spontaneous "booms". Hence, by "boom" I presume you are referring to the transition event that occured approximately 13.7 billion years ago. This event is commonly referred to as the Big Bang.
If you are genuinely interested in the causal chain of events that occured during these processes, then I invite you to read this response I presented to another debater. I trust this is enough detail and enough complexity to answer your question:
This response will address for you how stars form, how planets form, how chemical evolution works, the processes by which our universe works, and our explanations for them, based on testable, verifiable, facts, a concept which you seem incacapable of grasping. Hence, I present to you, my gift:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13994?page=2
All you have to do is scroll down. My post is hard to miss.
Deluded,
So you disagree with "boom boom". And on and on it goes just like I said. Some feminists think all sex is rape, others think otherwise. That's your problem, and you can argue about it 'til the end. The place where you find rest is in faith in Christ. He said it and I believe it. "Believe and live" to quote Him.
You know, deluded, you're right I denied my ability to understand you and your heroes, such as old Hume. I admitted I can't navigate your definition maze. But, I don't have to.
Look at the original post. It still stands. I said I couldn't prove my faith to you, and you have admitted it by your prating behavior.
Equally true is the fact that you don't understand me, or what it is like to have the Lord as your Shepherd or walk by faith in Christ, because you don't believe in Christ. You aren't in Christ. You don't even know you have a spirit.
You are fighting your own impressions and delusions.
mephibosheth
Offline You are fighting your own impressions and delusions.
Did you read the link in question? And do you have any evidence to support the above statement?
I said I couldn't prove my faith to you, and you have admitted it by your prating behavior.
This was not the assertion that was made in the OP. The assertion made in the OP was that atheism requires faith. I believe numerous people have already pointed out that this is an argument from ignorance fallacy. Hence your conclusion is invalid and hence your argument is defeated immediately and you lose. End of story.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Offline Geezzz meph. There is nothing to prove, but to try and understand is helpful. "Design" is a word and method we use for communicating "how" things work ....
We don't "design" things , we discover and assemble things. Like music, it already exists, we just use it. Asking How vs Why are very different questions. If you think the incredible awesome universe has a "designer", okay whatever, but when you pretend to have insight as to what that designer thinks, wants, and asks of it's creation you are FUCKING NUTS ..... and dangerous .....
The cosmos is not an accident, nor designed, as there was no beginning and no end. There was never such a thing as nothing. Therefore asking "why" is silly ..... There is no WHY ..... besides, if there is a why , WE will never know ..... because behind every question is another ..... at least for now.
Stop the Bull Shit about "proof" etc. It isn't helpful .... in fact it is bad for all of us. Ask how .... not why.
Offline So you disagree with "boom boom".
Actually, it's the facts that disagree with you. He just listed them all.
and you can argue about it 'til the end.
There is no need to argue. The facts speak for themselves. Unless, of course, you simply ignore them all.
I admitted I can't navigate your definition maze.
There is no "definition maze".
But, I don't have to.
Of course you don't have to. You can keep on ignoring it all if this makes you happy.
Look at the original post. It still stands.
Read the first few pages of this thread and you will notice that it does not. Heck, pick any page.
Equally true is the fact that you don't understand me, or what it is like to have the Lord as your Shepherd or walk by faith in Christ, because you don't believe in Christ. You aren't in Christ. You don't even know you have a spirit.
There are plenty of people in this thread who understand all those things. You've been ignoring them just as happily as you have Deludedgod.
You are fighting your own impressions and delusions.
mephibosheth
So now facts you don't like are "impressions and delusions" ? Reality can only be experienced through your interpretation of the bible ?
Offline Geezzz meph. There is nothing to prove, but to trying and understand is helpful. "Design" is a word and method we use for communicating "how" things work ....
We don't "design" things , we discover and assemble things. Like music, it already exists, we just use it. Asking How vs Why are very different questions. If you think the incredible awesome universe has a "designer", okay whatever, but when you pretend to have insight as to what that designer thinks, wants, and asks of it's creation you are FUCKING NUTS ..... and dangerous .....
The cosmos is not an accident, nor designed, as there was no beginning and no end. There was never such a thing as nothing. Therefore asking "why" is silly ..... There is no WHY ..... besides, if there is a why , WE will never know ..... because behind every question is another ..... at least for now.
Stop the Bull Shit about "proof" etc. It isn't helpful .... in fact it is bad for all of us. Ask how .... not why.
Nota,
This is the way children talk who hear such things at home from their father at the dinner table.
mephibosheth
Offline I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Geezzz meph. There is nothing to prove, but to trying and understand is helpful. "Design" is a word and method we use for communicating "how" things work ....
We don't "design" things , we discover and assemble things. Like music, it already exists, we just use it. Asking How vs Why are very different questions. If you think the incredible awesome universe has a "designer", okay whatever, but when you pretend to have insight as to what that designer thinks, wants, and asks of it's creation you are FUCKING NUTS ..... and dangerous .....
The cosmos is not an accident, nor designed, as there was no beginning and no end. There was never such a thing as nothing. Therefore asking "why" is silly ..... There is no WHY ..... besides, if there is a why , WE will never know ..... because behind every question is another ..... at least for now.
Stop the Bull Shit about "proof" etc. It isn't helpful .... in fact it is bad for all of us. Ask how .... not why.
Nota,
This is the way children talk who hear such things at home from their father at the dinner table.
mephibosheth
Hey, look everyone! The guy who says he has an Invisible Friend is calling us children again.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Offline
Look at the original post. It still stands. I said I couldn't prove my faith to you, and you have admitted it by your prating behavior.
Equally true is the fact that you don't understand me, or what it is like to have the Lord as your Shepherd or walk by faith in Christ, because you don't believe in Christ. You aren't in Christ. You don't even know you have a spirit.
You are fighting your own impressions and delusions.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Offline Nota,
This is the way children talk who hear such things at home from their father at the dinner table.
mephibosheth
That line would be better suited to describe your replies, sir. But of course, that would have been "scoffing", wouldn't it ?
You didn't even bother to read his post, did you ? He makes a few good points, and he's infinitely more coherent than you are.
Please keep on expressing your contempt for people in your amusing little ways. I couldn't make a better anti-theist argument if I wrote your posts myself.
Hey meph, a friend has a few words for you and yours. You worship the devil, and you call him Jesus. Get free friend, get off you knees. ~ Thinking of you, me GOD, ( and the real Jesus, the message was "ONE" ...... "heaven NOW" .....
Pat Condell - "The curse of faith" 6 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPG3-1gogXU
Atheism Books.
Yes, his god just wants to cook us like we were live lobsters. How charming.
Prozak,
Thanks but nothing has shaken the original thread post. Your faith (your doctrine that there is no God) is something you definitely can't prove and haven't proved and look silly believing.
As I said, my faith in God is something I can't prove to you. I can and am proving it to me.
So the original thread post is true - including the part about bees and penguins. I've also heard pigs are smart in the animal world. They aren't known to wear fine pearls though.
mephibosheth
(Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, a curse that is causeless does not alight.)
Meph, your kind of thinking is a plague to the sanity of all humanity, and so unlike Jesus. You are the enemy called dogma to heal. Pat Condell is the living Jesus yr 2008. Your Jesus is the DEVIL.
Atheism Books.
By your own reasoning, then, you look silly for believing there is no Santa Clause (or unicorns, leprechauns, etc) because you can't prove he doesn't exist.
"The Bible looks like it started out as a game of Mad Libs" - Bill Maher
Hey Theia, I thought of you, sweet one, when I saw this .... and I think we could relate this 2 min vid, to faith and religion as well.
If I Were A Terrorist A James Pence Video! - 2 min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1EXKLVgEx0
more stuff here
http://www.youtube.com/user/HillbillyReport
http://www.hillbillyreport.com/
Atheism Books.
Now I know where you're going wrong - you think all atheists believe there is no God. Some do but most of us can't believe in God because there isn't enough evidence.
No god does not equal no god belief. One can't have faith (believe) in a non belief.
Here's the etymology:
a (no/negation)+ theos (God)+ "ism" (belief)
You're trying to base your view on two-thirds of a word.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
GOD is a word, What is the agreed definition? There ain't one ..... So I AM pushing the simplest one , GOD IS ALL ( and we know jack shit nothing much ) SO fuck all the bullshit dogma of silly worship ..... Shezzzzzzzz WHAT THE FUCK AIN'T G O D ???? Pray to what and how so ??????????????????????????????????????
WE ARE GOD
Atheism Books.
So meph, according to your op, I should worship something simply because....it exists ? That doesn't work for me.
Besides, your so-called holy book indicates that your god is nothing more than a bigger version an insecure tyrant and unless the threat of godly punishment is removed from your relationship with him then your professions of love for Him are tainted as your "affection" for him is coerced.
Ok, so let's assume that your God does exist, he is like a violent husband who threatens to beat up his wife if she attempts to leave him. She will stay with him ( because she fears the consequences of disobedience ) but is she staying because she loves him or because she is being coerced ?
Your God has no appeal to me as every "loving" interaction with him is framed within the backdrop of threats to deliver a hard slap across the face if he doesn't get his way. ( ..if the church is God's bride then I would seriously consider getting a divorce )
I see. So when there's too many unassailable arguments lined up against your faith, you just ignore them all and go straight back to the beginning.
You know sir, if there's one supernatural thing I'm starting to believe in, it's the contempt you have for other people's reasoning and experiences.
As for your op, it's not 100% true. It's been explained to you why it's not, many, many times. You have ignored all that, and it seems that when you ignore something, it is totally without value. Gosh sir, that's a neat magical power.
"I've also heard pigs are smart in the animal world. They aren't known to wear fine pearls though." How is this relevant to anything ? Care to explain ? Or is this just another one of your veiled insults ? You're going to have to try to resist those, sir, no matter how much you enjoy them.
So once again, your op is not true. You are not an all-knowing, all-powerful entity who can destroy arguments simply by ignoring them.
Anonymoose,
It is 100% true and there has been nothing of substance to ignore. I have seen a many - splendored blasphemy, but your many forms of disrespect for that which you don't understand don't prove anything to anyone except your fellow mockers who have yet to show any progress in the building world with their crowbars.
mephibosheth
(No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel, can avail against the LORD. The house is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the LORD.)
Also known as - "I made up my mind before I read your arguments that my way is God's way so your arguments against my beliefs are a waste of time. Besides, they scare me. It's easier to ignore them than it is to think about them. I just came to preach."
Amazing how faith trumps reason in the theist's mind. With some, I can actually see the cerebrum atrophy.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Sir,
Once again, you shamelessly showcase your contempt. "Nothing of substance", you say. Oh, but there's been plenty of substance, sir. What you stubbornly keep failing to realise is that the simple act of you ignoring something does not make it worthless or without substance. You are not a supernatural being who's mere opinion can obliterate facts. You do not have magical powers. You are just a normal human being like the rest of us.
"Many forms of disrespect" ? Show me one. As I mentioned before, you have been shown more respect here than you deserve, in my opinion, and you gave nothing but contempt and insults in return. The only time in this thread when you behaved in a civil manner is when you were discussing things other than your faith.
"fellow mockers" ? You have not been mocked, sir. You have been treated with respect. If I didn't respect your opinion, why would I even bother asking you questions ? Or did you really think they were all rethorical ? I know you crave ridicule and mockery, sir, but you will not get it from me. No matter how many snide remarks about pigs, dogs and whatever you come up with, I will not sink to your level.
"who have yet to show any progress in the building world with their crowbars."....What does that even mean ? Really, I'd like to know.
"No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel, can avail against the LORD. The house is made ready for the day of battle, but the victory belongs to the LORD."
Is that some kind of threath ? There's no need for that, sir. Just calm down. If you want a battle, I'm afraid you'll have to fight yourself.
Meph , because I "care", I AM often blunt and loud, especially in print .....
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Matthew 16:23
That was written is very superstitious times, and has alot of meaning for me. It's time you and everyone come full circle and say , I AM GOD, therefore canceling out all superstition, dogma, separation, and idol worship ....
"Ye are God(s)" story Jesus also said , and "ONE" with the father (cosmos) .....
I say most sincerely to you religious folks, you just don't get it. It is so SIMPLE. That is why, you religious people create dogma and ritual etc etc. It is the religious that have no "faith" in Oneness (god). Religion is wrong thinking the "devil / satan". Get off your knees ....
My Jesus is proud of Pat Condell. Did you even watch that video I posted a couple back? It is the same "saving" message of my Jesus, but not the Jesus you "sinfully" worship. " You do not have in mind the the things of god, but the things of men " .... DOGMA ....
.... and Jesus wept ....
Atheism Books.
anonymoose not verified,
There has been nothing of substance either to prove your faith there is no God - nor to disprove my faith in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Gospel.
There have been muddied waters falsely labeled reason that had no gravitas whatsoever.
There has been total lack of respect for God and His Son.
In my work I have seen a lot of disrespect for electricity in the way it's installed and handled - that disrespect doesn't disprove electricity. Plus, who do you think it hurts?
You still think when I say mocking I am talking about me - no, that's your type of thinking, that "everything is about you". I don't give a hoot about your mocking me.
You are the ones avoiding the substance issue. I ask for application of your faith to fundamental things such as death, the meaning of life, creation, injustice, conscience, guilt, etc - and the glittering jewels of fellowship here said some magic Latin term and strutted on as if they had proved something and didn't care for anything in the world. They declared your faith doesn't need any application. (no building tools - only crowbars)
My faith in God and Jesus and His Sacrifice on the Cross has substance and application to everything - past, present, future, meaning of life, guilt, forgiveness, conscience, understanding, death, eternity, mysteries, creation, trials, love, truth, heart, spirit, etc, etc, etc. My faith has a product - yours doesn't. My faith has application - yours doesn't. I'm not sorry to share the truth.
If you can prove God does not exist (your faith) you have an opportunity to do it in your next post. If you really have understanding of your position you should be able to prove it (your faith) in a very simple, easy to understand paragraph. You won't prove it to me, because I know it's not true. It's more clear to me than whether I exist. I know God exists and Lives and I see Him and His Son and His Spirit through the eyes of faith. But that's my faith. I can't prove it to you, though I would like to, but obviously, as the OP states, I can't.
As you see, the original thread stands firm, unchallenged - except by pseudo barrages of meaningless drivel and mocking of God.
Why am I here then? I am here declaring that God has something better for you than you have for yourselves.
mephibosheth
Wisdom has built her house, she has set up her seven pillars. She has slaughtered her beasts, she has mixed her wine, she has also set her table. She has sent out her maids to call from the highest places in the town, "Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!" To him who is without sense she says, "Come, eat of my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed, Leave simpleness, and live, and walk in the way of insight."
I AM GOD AS YOU ..... big fucking deal ? God is more than a WORD, or CONCEPT, so again, big fucking deal , So now what? Poetry of DOGMA ? WHY WHY WHY , Meph ?
Atheism Books.
What motivates you to show such tender concern for our well being ? Is it your godly "compassion" that brings you to our forum or simply your christ-like "love" for atheists ?
Or could it be something else ?
I GOD, declare, ProzacDeathWish an angel prophet from heaven. What is heaven <> ? Heaven is NOW , as said some Jesus story dude , ....
Hey, I like them loving guys .... So then , why fuck it up ?????????????? it must be the devil , 
I AM sure it is.
Meph is in a devil spell, help him MORE , please please , for all my kids ..... sincerely, me GOD ..... I laugh, but it ain't really funny ....
What the hell is wrong with me > G O D < , actually nothing ....
DREAMS ? How come, how so, what is that ??? Why LIE ?
EDIT: ADD (about yourself and me)
Atheism Books.
You're not really in a position to accuse anyone of muddying any waters, sir.
Sorry to keep repeating myself, but there has indeed been more than enough substance provided for you to change your opinion. I can give you the numbers of the posts where this occured, if you wish.
If you want to dismiss all those posts as "muddied waters falsely labeled reason", you're going to have to use reason to do so, and so far, you haven't. You have a lot of work ahead of you, sir. Good luck.
No sir, there hasn't. It's impossible to show a lack of respect for something you do not believe exists. Surely you can understand that at least.
Anyway, we could never even match the lack of respect most believers have for their own faith.
I see JC was right about the electricity analogy. The answer to this is rather obvious : I have respect for electricity because it exists.
And suddenly you are telepathic as well. You do not know "my type of thinking", sir. Why do I have to keep reminding you that you don't have any supernatural powers ?
That's good, because I'm not. But you do give the impression that you would like me to try. I wonder why that is.
You did ? And nobody gave you an answer ? That's strange, as this board is filled with threads and essays about those very things. Are you saying you already reviewed all of those and pronounced them worthless ? Did you prove this with reason and actual arguments ? Fascinating. Show me.
Now this is mocking. You know, sir, before you demand respect for a supernatural entity, you should learn to respect people, their reasoning and their accomplishments.
"Glittering jewels" is uncalled for. These are just people who are reaching out to you, trying to help you think for yourself, not force their own dogma down your throath.
"Magic Latin term" ???? No "magic" latin terms have been used in this thread. This isn't Harry Potter. All those terms actually mean something. Something real, not something supernatural. If you do not understand a certain term, just ask for an explanation. There is no shame in that. It's extremely dangerous, sir, to just dismiss a scientific term simply because our own level of education didn't reach that far. Ask what it means, and there will be no more "magic".
That "no building tools-only crowbars" line is only wishful thinking on your part. You would very much like your faith to somehow grant you moral superiority, but the truth is that it does not. Neither does atheism, of course. The difference is, we know that. What's important is what you do, not what you believe.
You keep calling atheism a faith. It's not, but sure, if you absolutely must.., okay then. My "faith" does have a "product". It's all the things you get, plus the extra time I win by not praying. My "faith" is applicable to everything. I really don't understand your point here. You seem to have misinterpreted so many things I don't know where to start.
You haven't really shared the truth, sir. You have shared your opinion, and you haven't been able to back it up with facts or even a half-decent argument.
You have already been provided with proof, many times, so what you're really asking me here is to waste my time for a while. Sure, okay, since you asked nicely. I'll keep it simple, easy to understand, and I promise not to use any magic.
God doesn't exist because there are too many contradictions. To which the believers say : "ah, but God transcends mere human reason and understanding. Therefore any contradictions you might find simply do not count" (I'm quoting verbatim here. Also, please notice how they are allowed to use magic in their reasoning and I'm not. Seems unfair somehow..). To which I reply : "If God transcends human reason and understanding, then how do you understand Him so well ? How can you even conceive of the concept of God if He transcends you ? ". To which they reply, "..uh....". The end. (Some of course answer, "the bible !", but that just starts the whole argument up again from the beginning.)
There you go. Not as elegant or waterproof as the arguments you've already been presented with, but you'd magically ignore it into oblivion if it was, so it doesn't really matter, does it ?
Here's some more proof of the emptiness of your faith : You. Yes, sir, you, and the simple fact that you're posting here instead of in the hundreds of forums on the net where your faith is being horribly abused for purposes too vile to contemplate. Where is your 700 plus thread on the boards of the Westboro Baptist church sympathisers ? When people on Christian boards call Joseph Kony a "soldier of God", where are you to protest such a hidious distortion of your faith ?
You, sir, are looking for blasphemy in all the wrong places.
I won't prove it to you because you won't listen. I won't prove it to you, because you refuse to think. There are probably other reasons too, but I don't know you well enough to name them.
It's wishful thinking, sir. I am truly sorry for you, but that's all it is. All those who claim to be united through faith are praying to a different God. If you could only see what other believers see through their eye of faith, you would start a church of one right away. You'd be the only true believer and all the world a heretic.
Actually sir, if your faith was true, proving it would be the easiest thing in the world to do.
No sir, it does not. Your refusal to admit this has been noted. The next time you make this claim, I will simply cut and paste the replies in which other posters have shown the failure of your op and you failed to defend it. Go right ahead, there's plenty of material.
So you have proved, using reason and logic, in a very simple, easy to understand paragraph, that all the arguments against your op are nothing but "psuedo barrages of meaningless" ? Or have you simply decided that ? Once again, sir, you can't do that. You do not have magical powers that suck the meaning out of arguments. You have to prove something is without meaning. And for the last time : It's impossible to mock something you do not believe exists. If you really want your God to be mocked , you will have to search for it elsewhere.
Why is this relevant to our conversation ? Please explain in a simple, easy to understand paragraph.
Meph,
You must be having fun knocking down that strawman of atheism you've got there - I see you're still doing it.
Having no God belief is not the same as a belief that there is no God. I leave open the possibility that there may be a God. You claim that it's Yahweh - back up that claim.
You have the Bible which is supposedly the word of Yahweh. Unfortunately, it doesn't help Yahweh's case all that much. Too much plagiarism from other stories.
You know God exists? Good, then you can prove it. Oh wait, then you claim you have faith which means you can't prove it (faith isn't knowledge).
Then you dismiss all questions and refutations as mocking your God (as if an omnimax being like you believe Yahweh is really needs your defense).
make up your mind, ok?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
My reply to the following sentence seems to be missing from my last post, so here it is again.
But before you have even provided proof that your God exists, how can that declaration have any meaning ?
So the question remains, why are you here ? It's not that you're not welcome here. It's just puzzling that you keep posting when you have nothing to add to your op and no defense to offer (except for magic). If your faith really means something to you, then why not spend your online time defending it against people who are corrupting if from the inside ? Too much trouble ?
As not having faith is not something one can disprove this still remains as an error on your part.
Please provide detail.
I haven't shown either you or your false interpretation of reality disrespect. You can't say that to me though.
Actually electricity can be measured, its effect observed, and much can be described regarding its attributes from science. Poor analogy on your part, try again.
You have received answers though you ignored them.
Here's mine:
Death - you die, you're gone, who knows. No one has returned with home video to show what happens.
Meaning of Life - Be happy in all that you do. Live as if their is nothing else. Be grateful for that which there is. Show kindness to others.
Creation - Boom. Then billions of years of evolution. Questions?
Injustice - Man has the ability to be fair or not. Circumstances result in how this is applied. I wish fairness always happened. It doesn't since others like you are in my reality. You bring your own rules to decide what is just or not. Disagreement causes wars, fights and injustice.
Conscience - I have one do you?
Guilt - Sometimes.
Etc - See all previous posts.
I tried to get you to do a detailed discussion to investigate your claim that Jesus is the way. I asked you to show me how the basis for your religion, Judaism went wrong and to detail how it resulted in your belief, you rejected my request.
If so, that is something for you to prove which you so far have not in 800+ posts.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
JCTS, and all
Actually I kind of like you guys - I just don't buy your doctrine.
For example - "boom" then billions of years of evolution (your belief)
Why have more recent "booms" not been productive? Is it just that it's "so far away" in time that it gets a free pass? Does the "billions of years ago" make it seem, ok?
That must have really been something. Just one example, hummingbirds - I think those little cuties (one boomed out male and one boomed female -amazing) can make a new one or two of them in 28 days? Boom (never mind), then "boom" she makes a nest. Then they fly away, boom. Only bird I think that can fly backwards. Pretty too. Rational too. They can take off and land - fuel in the air. I've never seen such a coincidence - instant you say? That's beginning to seem, well, flighty.
mephibosheth (here's popping a sack for you)
Now "the Big bang was an explosion" falsehood? If you really want to change the subject to your incorrect view of evolution, good luck to you.
You think you got disrespect before? You bring up oft-disproved theistic talking points about evolution, you're going to have a lot of people handing you your hindparts.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Gosh. It's as if I didn't post a reply at all. I guess you must have waved your magic wand yet again.
I kind of like you too, sir. So far, you've converted two of my christian friends to atheism, and they were some really stubborn ones. My third christian friend to whom I've shown this thread is kind of angry with me. See, he figures you're my sockpuppet, and I'm using you to discredit christianity. Could you maybe mention in your next post that you're not me, so he'll talk to me again please ? (He has a PS3, and I don't want to have to get baptized just to play GTA 4)
"I just don't buy your doctrine." I beg your pardon ? Nobody's selling anything. There's no doctrine either. How do you manage to stuff so many misinterpretations into one sentence ? Could it be you're doing it on purpose ? Could you be that dishonest ?
Oh wow, you're doing the old big bang and humming bird routine ! Neat ! I enjoyed that the first time you tried it. It got destroyed, but of course you don't remember that. Magic wand again, eh sir ?
Now then, sir, what did I say again about things you do not understand ? I told you there was no shame in asking, didn't I ? So why don't you just ask someone who has studied the facts of evolution and the big bang to explain it all to you ? Are you shy ? Too much work ? If science is too hard it's not real to you ? Is that it ? Don't just dump this stupidity on us an run away. Explain it !
Please sir, do keep posting. You are to atheism what cowmanure is to roses. (I'm sorry if that was a bit rude. I guess your behaviour is finally rubbing off on me)
"here's popping a sack for you". That's nice, sir. Would you mind telling us why you're doing that and why it's relevant ? Or is it just a hobby ?
Here you go :
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_01
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html
Happy studying !
Anything else ?
I still have decided about that. I don't know what doctrine you may be speaking about, we have so many.
Actually this has been literally beat to death on this thread, don't go here again. We all know you think God did it.
You asked simply how we view things based on our views. I responded in 1 sentence short quips. You are welcome to answer the same in short 1-line sentences.
That's nice, but there's also the horror your God made too if you want to play that game. I don't, but I can pretty well detail every sick thing that is credited to Yahweh and more that should be. There is the opposite side to your pretty picture of God making things.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
One of the oldest threads on the forum, few more pages and it will be older then me...wth now it is time for me to find place in history
Meph, I asked you once how you understand a Bible and its meaning for you.
Now, some questions for you.
How can you follow deity who asked its followers to commit a genocide, was justifying rapes, slavery, murders and all this nasty stuff you can find in Bible. Who's prophets were denying facts about world and science for AGES ? Who were and actually are discouraging our need to understand world ?
How can you read that book as moral and life guidance for people ?
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding" you know those words, do you ? I laugh at them when you follow them blindly.
The strongest arguments for non-existence of your god are those people over that forum and world, who don't follow any invisible friend and they...we are doing fine. I am far from being amoral animal without purpose in life. Bah ! I am far better then lot of worshippers. How can it be ? I shouldn't have morals or even purpose as unbeliever.
How it is possible that I see those things like genocide as evil if I don't have morals ? Why am I happy with my life and see a purpose in it ?
Tell why should I believe in your god or thousands of others which were worshipped in the past and forgotten ?
What fate will give me as human being what I don't have now ? How it will improve my life and people around me ? How it will make me better human which I won't achieve in any other way ?
Ecrasez l'infame!
Blind Chance,
The genocide question. (You didn't mention Noah's time when all the world except Noah and family were wiped out). We aren't given a back stage pass on a lot of those. There are hints. If you don't have faith in God's Righteousness, that God is Love, etc, you see you are challenging His decision; however a small child doesn't understand the why of a lot of the parent's rules and decisions either. I think the comparison works. If you accept that God is Right in His judgments though all the details aren't revealed it is because you have faith in God. (I don't know of a time when rape was justified).
There isn't anything I know of in the Bible against understanding our world if I understand your question.
You don't accept the first part of the "Trust in the Lord with all your heart" - so you lean to your own understanding (opposite of the last half of the scripture). You challenge the actions therefore of the Lord. I think the Righteousness of the Lord is proved leaving no doubt when Jesus His Son dies for our sins. That totally displays the heart of God and His desire to save us. I therefore don't have any question about why God wiped out cities or the whole world (Noah).
I don't follow those words "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" blindly. It all makes sense when you Trust in the Lord .... You "taste and see that the Lord is good".
You assess your own righteousness as acceptable to yourself and maybe a whole bunch of people. But it's not acceptable to God - you can only trust in Christ's Righteousness and come to God in Him. The Word of God says your own righteousness is filthy rags. Since I "Trust in God with all my heart and lean not to my own understanding" I have no problem seeing that is true. Especially when I look at the life of Christ - perfect in every way. There is the perfect image of God in Christ. He is 100% man and 100% God.
If you are in search of fine pearls - as in which is the best God - this is the One! God sent His Son to live a perfect life and become the perfect Lamb of God, slain for the sins of the world - to those who accept Him. I love God because of what He did and what He is doing.
As to why are you happy - why do you have purpose and morals? I guess you aren't sick and therefore don't need a physician. But I don't think you have the same diagnosis as God. The only way to be saved is through Christ.
The way I would answer the last question (what way would life be better) is that you would have a personal relationship with God. When you are "born anew" by the water and Spirit you are given the gift of the Holy Spirit, and God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit come and make their home with you.
mephibosheth
Nice avoidance again Meth.
Genocide:
The flood doesn't count as it was world wide extermination.
Numbers 31 - Killing of children by God's command and non-virgin women.
The Midianites, The Amorites, and the Amelkites to mention a few.
Rape:
Numbers 31:17-18 and 35.
Judges 21:8-15 Young virgin women of Jabeshgilead taken prisoner after all of their family has been murdered by Israel. They were forced into marriage with members of the tribe of Benjamin. The forcing means it is rape sir.
Judges 21:18-25 Seizing women at the feast of the Lord in Shiloh and forcing them to marry into the tribe of Benjamin.
Deuteronomy 20:13-14 God's order regarding war. Kill the men and keep the virgin women for themselves.
2 Samuel 12:11 David's wives to be taken and given to his neighbor.
Zechariah 14:1-2 God's plan to eradicate Jerusalem includes rape of the women.
This is but a few of the atrocities ordered by your Bible God, there are far more.
I know you see this all as God's justice against those who opposed him and it will make no difference to you at all.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Don't you understand what meph is trying to say ?
1.) It is an act of righteousness when genocide and murder are carried out in the name of the Christian god.
2.) and it is not an act of righteousness when genocide and murder are carried out in the name of Allah.
( Unless of course you are a Muslim, then you simply reverse the meaning of the above statements. Righteousness is merely a matter of semantics in the religious world. )
INDEED .... religion is bunk .... Meph is Satan , as story Jesus came down hard on story Peter ....
Is life a story?
yes, as in words and math ..... got anything else ? ESP !
Atheism Books.
Paul John the Skeptic,
You would accuse me of being telepathic if I talked like you in your last line.
It's a package deal, true. Along with your god or lack of god, whatever, come your definitions (of rape and your world). I have heard some women today define any sex as rape.
So you have your definition and your condemnation from your perspective - which includes your god - or lack of god, whatever. There have been several cultures that arranged marriages BTW, or at least the women weren't asked. Surely you don't think your form of righteousness and your world view applies to all generations and cultures.
It's true I get my definition of terms from my God and His Word. Words in the Bible are usually defined by example or, just defined, like: "Scoffer is the name of the proud, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride." Or observation definitions: "Like a gold ring in a swine's snout is a beautiful woman without discretion".
I'm sure everything and every body is defined in Scripture. And I accept it and have absolutely no doubts about it.
mephibosheth (in high definition)
Prophecy: Meph will be a militant angry Atheist in 10 years ! Bet ya, bet ya .... as when the rooster crowed 3 times .... as satan Peter denied atheist Jesus ....
What ain't G O D ? , asked a laughing buddha
Atheism Books.
Heh. Actually, sir, that's usually my line. Don't think PJ ever accused you of that. Must be hard to remember who you're talking to when you ignore them most of the time.
So PJ was right. Gosh, I guess he really is telepathic then. Or maybe you're just really predictable.
Yes, I've noticed you doing that before. You dragged God into a definition of honesty too, didn't you ? That way hypocrisy and outright lying is okay for you, just as long as you think you're doing it for God.
I shudder to think what happens to the concept of rape when you drag God in there.
If your daughter got raped, and the guy who did it brought up God as an excuse, what would you do ?
Yeah, so ? I've heard you say some pretty weird things too. That doesn't mean they're true.
Uh...is it okay with you if I use common sense and reality to come up with definitions ?
Also, explain what's wrong with condemnation of rape and genocide.
There still are. Some of those women (sometimes girls) are indeed raped.
No, I don't think that. If you re-read all your posts, you'll find that's actually what you think.
I'm just suggesting we might have learned a thing or two about right and wrong since 2000 years ago.
Then you haven't been true to your bible, sir. You've accused people of scoffing just for asking you questions. Where in the bible does it say "scoffer is the name of the man who does not agree with me" ?
I dunno, sir. That could have been written by a guy who just got dumped. Or a guy who doesn't like women that much.
I'm also not sure what's meant with "without discretion". Could just be outgoing and extraverted, in which case the whole swine thing is a rather mean and vulgar thing to say.
So no, that's not really a definition of anything. Maybe you need to look up the definition of definition.
No I would understand that you had read all 28 pages of this thread.
I can understand that. They probably have a self-centered man that does it for himself and doesn't care if she enjoys it too. Or worse yet maybe they are lesbians and see us as disgusting. Perhaps they have met self-centered Christian men that have driven them to this view. Now they are condemned by your god for either being a lesbian or not giving it up.
I know marriage was arranged in many civilizations in the past. One shouldn't use those male dominated cultures as examples of high standards as you seem to do by advocating these actions are justified by a god. It would seem that you by your expression of agreement support sexism and discrimination.
It seems that many views today were not held by past cultures and generations. The Sun is a star not a deity. The moon isn't called Sin (Akkadian god Abram's father worshiped), the oceans don't flow off the edge of the Earth, women are not men's sex slaves, leprosy is caused by bacteria not a unclean curse of a god, and seizures are not caused by demons. Perhaps learning and science have affected our culture to bring us out of the dark ages into the light of understanding. Your views would return us to an era of irrational acceptance and ignorance.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.