I suppose it is no secret, per my ramblings on this site, that I am a critic some of the thing that atheists throw at theism. This is not because I like theism and hate atheism, rather that I have a distaste for ear-tickling arguments that get accepted without any rational discretion. One in particular that is often thrown around is the idea that god-talk is meaningless, and it is on this idea that I witch to camp out for a moment.

The root of these assertions can be traced back to a school of thought known as logical positivism which got started in the early 20th century in Europe with a group called the Vienna Circle. Influenced by the work of Ludwig Wittgenstein, logical positivism asserted that anything meaningful should be empirical verified. Anything else then was categorically meaningless. This sort of principle seemed to be the doom of theism because gods, at least in the sense of classical theism, are transcendental, thereby not empirically verifiable. Gods were then placed into the placed in the meaningless category.

Positivism was not met with the optimism one might hope, as philosophers here and there began to point out that the verificationist principle was self refuting, asking how one would empirically verify the positivist's assertion that statements must be empirically verifiable. Wittgenstein grappled with this idea and felt that event his own work was in danger of falling into the nonsense category. Wittgenstein later backed off his bolder claims and took a weaker approach to it.

One thing that has particularly aggravated me about atheism and theism is the lack of specificity when one begins to discuss the existence or nonexistence of a god. When one says, "I'm an atheists" or "I'm a theist" I usually am like "okay, so is my pet orangutan...and....?" Of course I'm not serious about this, but it is a way to let one know that what they are saying needs to be clarified. While it is certainly true that a theist who claims that a particular deity exists bears the burden of proof for that particular deities existence, at the same time I do not think it is right for atheists to make categorical statements about being atheism without reason, because atheism seems to be more of a category of positions than any single position about god.

Here is an example of two polar opposites GETTING ALONG. And of all networks to display this FOX! Yes, the world is coming to an end.

http://rawstory.com/2009/10/hitchens-christianity-fraud/

If I am blunt and blasphemous with you, it is not because I hate you the person, it is because YOU have no evidence for the claims you make. THATS IT.

In all our verbal battles against each other we are ALL still human. We are all capable of the same range of human emotion and actions. The only difference between an atheist and a theist is that we don't buy claims of magic. BUT we are all part of the same planet and we cannot isolate ourselves from each other.

Just because I think you are full of shit on a claim(ANY CLAIM) not just that of religion, does not mean I think you are a bad person. It just means my position is that you got it wrong.

 Hi,

If a similar thread has already been started, my apologies in advance.  I'm happy to have my post moved there.  I couldn't find one dedicated to this topic in my search, so here goes...

For NFL fans and those who don't know Brian Sapient is an Eagles fan and I have the misfortune of being a Redskins fan. Monday Night on ESPN our teams will clash,

Considering that my Skins suck huge donkey balls AND LOST TO THE LIONS, and our coach doesn't have much hope, or talent for that matter, I am not going to hold my breath.

BUT TO BRIAN, A BIG NANNY NANNY BOO BOO, AND (Curly "Three Stooges hand under my chin wave).

YOU WANNA PIECE OF ME!

(Note to self: Did I think that, or type it?)

Mind you, a brilliant book by Hitchens. BUT, a long time ago, when I ordered it, the SIZE of the book confounded me considering the title "PORTABLE"

I got a fucking hernia trying to lift it.

They say lift with your knees not your back. I BLEW OUT MY KNEES TRYING TO LIFT IT!

"Portable" What the fuck do you mean by "Portable"

"Portable" shit, Encyclopedia Britannica looks at that and says, " Aint no amount of Extenze gonna make us that big"

"Portable" what the fuck do you mean by "Portable"

You'd need a mobile platform 100 times the size of the one that moves the space shuttle to the launch pad.

"Portable" What the fuck do you mean by "Portable"?

This book makes "War and Peace" look like a flier insert you find in your grocery cart at the super market.

"Portable" What the fuck do you mean by "portable"?

In all seriousness, I loved the book although I thought the title was not matching it's size.

Just being silly folks.

And yet out of all the cruelty in the world, even inmates in prison would find it horrific if you stood by and watched a child harmed, AND COULD STOP IT.

I'm not talking bout duress where someone has a gun to your head or fear for your own life, I'm talking about having absolute ammo that could squash such a piece of scum AND FAILURE TO USE IT!

Another kid has been murdered under the all seeing eye of an all powerful, all loving god who could have stepped in, but couldn't, or didn't want to.

MIND YOU, I don't believe in such a being. This unfortunate girl was a victim of a sicko. She wasn't a pawn in the fictional "sin" game where a super hero and super villain manipulated the neurons in the perps head.

I am simply arguing from a claim standpoint, that you cannot square an all powerful and all loving god sitting by and watching this happen time after time selectively getting involved. WHAT DID THIS KID DO OTHER THAN BE BORN?

This kid did nothing, neither did any other kid who was murdered or starved to death or died from disease. Crime against children IS NATURAL, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME AS WANTING IT TO HAPPEN.

Crime is natural, just like cancer is natural, just like aids is natural, just like tornados are natural. None of us would want these events affecting us, but they do, just like the natural event of death of old age affects all of us. But assigning good and bad to comic book super heros fighting against each other, is absurd and does nothing to further the science of observation to catch these sickos.

Another point of question: I was thinking about all the healthcare reform going on in the United States as it ponders nationalized health care, and if this were so, would the US government be paying for theists to go through rehab? And would that be constitutional?

Lets assume your right for the sake of discussion and the universe was created by a god that has always been.  What exactly was god doing for an eternity surrounded by nothingless before he spontaneously decided "Im bored".  Im mean it doesnt matter how long ago he created the universe, he still would have existed for eternity before it.  Just sitting around (wait not sitting he hadn't created chairs yet) doing nothing FOREVER.  Furthermore down the train of thought, if something has always been is it possible for it at anytime to spontaneously create something.  As far i can think (which could certainly be a further distance) i can't logically understand how something infinite could ever co-exist with something non-infinite, the day would have never come for him to create something.

 The Doubt

Earlier I mentioned how I became more interested in befriending Blacks and learning about the history of civil rights ect.

I learned about Emmit Till, Medger Evers, Rosa Parks and so on and loved the PBS series Eyes on the Prize that taught me about the struggle for civil rights and the hostilities that arose from them...the 50's and 60's without question was a tumultous time yet it was also instrumental in the strides that we as a nation overcame to get us to this day and age where we finally can have an African American President irregardless of your dissertation of his presidency and prejudices you may have towards him and how he is handling his duties!

For me I hated the word nigger and tried to learn the origin of the word...I was the white guy who would be among my friends and as they would refer to each other as my nigga..i was the one that intervened and would try to educate my brothers on not using the word because to do so would be slap in the face of the women and men who died under this malicious moniker of Hate!