Vastet wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

Onward dragged the pointless thread, For on and on, the Troll they fed, Whose nonsense, one may demonstrate,

Trolls feeding trolls. Like you, the biggest and most obvious troll on the site in recent times. Also the least effective, since noone cares about your broken record peanut gallery comments enough to stop responding. Brian doesn't qualify as a troll, since he actually believes the stuff he's saying. Like theists, he's stuck in a loop. Fonzie, if he is trolling, would be the best troll, since he's been doing it for years without a break in character. But not the biggest troll and certainly not the most obvious or ineffective.

What loop am I stuck in? That it makes more sense that humans merely make gods up to coddle their insecurities? Or that they have no evidence whatsoever that an ivisible non material thinking being exists? Or that even people like Hawkins have said "A god is not required". If that is a loop, then I am more than happy to be stuck in that loop because that is where science is pointing. I still think some people here think somehow I cannot separate human rights from personal beliefs.

I think this also is a missunderstanding of the term "agnostic atheist" which is what I am. The part even atheist sometimes fail to consider is timeframe issues. Past, present and future. As far as past and present claims I am 100% sure it all god claims are merely products of human imagination that merely give humans false comfort. I am strictly "semantically" and "technically"  agnostic about the future because science never talks in terms of absolutes.

But even then I still lean strong atheist about the future in terms of 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% probablility of a god even being a requirement. Stephen Hawkens has said "A god is not required".

So yea, I truely believe gods are made up and that even though we cant "techncally know", we do have abundant evidence that humans can believe false things.

 

All anyone with any god claim has to do is produce a universale testible falsifiable system so that an independent source can replicate such methodology and confirm their claims, get those claims independently tested and confirmed, and even the scientific community will be forced to adapt to those findings. They'd also be able to get patents and even win a Nobel prize in "god theory".

But if all they have is claims based on personal bias, tradition, and faith, all they are telling me is that they have claims they like believing. That is why "faith" cannot be equated to evidence. Rights are separate from the ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim.

 

 

As each spun the thread in their own loop, it remained quite easy...

 

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Fonzie, I really do not know how many times I have to repeat myself.

Atheists have been repeating themselves since this thread started, and it hasn't dented my faith yet.  Repeating yourself now still won't work for you.

 

Quote:

I claim " The New York Yankees won the Superbowl".

Would you stupidly buy that claim at face value? No you would not. Because you know the Yankees play baseball and the Superbowl is American football. Now while you may not stop me from repeating that claim, you will still have every right to call it bullshit.

Now for the last time. If you want to claim that your god is an invisible pink unicorn. Or your god is Allah, or your god is Vishnu, or your god is Frank. I WILL NOT STOP YOU FROM MAKING THOSE CLAIMS. But that does not stop me from calling bullshit on any of those claims.

 All those claims are false.  But if I claim that my god is the True god, then obviously it's true.  

 

Quote:

Please tell me you are not that dense as to not understand the difference between legal rights and ability to demonstrate the credibility of what you claim? It really is not hard to separate the two.

As the Constitution states, Rights are self-evident and god-given, so they are inseparable.

 

Quote:

Oh and you think the story of Job is moral?]Just like Adam and Eve, mere poker chips in a bet between God and Satan, no concent on their part, just property.

 jesus pushed all his chips in for us, and hit the jackpot.  You only have to ante your faith to get your table share, or you can roll Snake Eyes like Eve did in the garden.  

 

Quote:

If I for example, was your boss at work, and one of your co workers made a bet with me that they could ruin your job, make you lose it, cause you to be homeless. And I admitted I took that bet with them, would you want to come back and work for me? Personally if someone fucked me over like that, I would hate them, I would not come crawling back to them.

You left out the part where the Boss puts his Son up as collateral.

Fonzie, I really do not know how many times I have to repeat myself. If you get one thing out of this thread or website, or simple basic knowledge about "rights", please learn one thing.

Rights ARE NOT the issue. Rights are a matter of government protecting you. I am FOR your rights. That still is a separate issue than the ability to demonstrate the credibility of ANY claim you make on ANY subject.

FOR EXAMPLE,

I claim " The New York Yankees won the Superbowl".

Would you stupidly buy that claim at face value? No you would not. Because you know the Yankees play baseball and the Superbowl is American football. Now while you may not stop me from repeating that claim, you will still have every right to call it bullshit.

Now for the last time. If you want to claim that your god is an invisible pink unicorn. Or your god is Allah, or your god is Vishnu, or your god is Frank. I WILL NOT STOP YOU FROM MAKING THOSE CLAIMS. But that does not stop me from calling bullshit on any of those claims.

The ability to string words together and make sound waves come out of your mouth, does not make the claims that come out of your mouth true by default.

I claim "My car runs on pixy dust"

You, " You can claim that all you want but it is still busllshit".

Please tell me you are not that dense as to not understand the difference between legal rights and ability to demonstrate the credibility of what you claim? It really is not hard to separate the two.

I tell you your god claims are not true for the same reason you reject claims of Thor making lightening, or Vishnu being a real god. Legally everyone should be protected to make whatever claims they want, but that does not make the claim true becuase someone has the right to claim it. Other people also have the right to respond to the claims you make.

 

 

 

 

If you could show me a single person that became a christian without ever having been exposed to christianity then the suggestion might have some merit. But you can't. So the obvious conclusion is that the christian god doesn't give a damn what happens to most people.

Why did the people in North and South America remain completely oblivious to this message for more than a thousand years before christians crossed the ocean and told them?

I'll believe in my capacity to land a plane safely over depending on your god to do it for me any day.

Yes there is a place for hearing and preaching, people being sent to preach.  "But I ask, have they not heard?  Indeed they have, for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth and their words to the ends of the world'."

And you are no exception.  You have heard the gospel... and rejected it in favor of the psychological life you now have which maybe you think is as good as it gets.

Maybe you're like these Greeks that came to take a look at Jesus after He had raised Lazarus.  Jesus made an interesting statement to them.  "Truly truly I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit.  Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

You have life on a certain level, maybe it could be described as psychological I don't know.  But you don't really know Jesus or really know life because you aren't willing to die to yourself and be born anew into Him and be raised to the life that is life indeed - spiritual life in Christ.  You have the seed which you love and won't plant so it can die and spring up to eternal life.

As far as a life of faith being courageous or cowardly as you mis-represent it (hijacking the plane metaphor to justify your position) - the lives of men who lived by faith and didn't shrink back speaks for itself: they stopped the mouth of lions, they were made strong out of weakness, ...etc.  all these, though commended through their faith did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

God has offered His Son and the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit to those of us who are "born anew" into Christ Jesus.  We are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses" and are exhorted and challenged to lay aside every weight and run with endurance the race that is set before us - like Jesus, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the Cross, despising the shame and is now seated at the Right Hand of the Throne of God.  

We are exhorted to live by faith - and if we shrink back God doesn't take pleasure in it.  He will discipline us however and train us and coach us so we won't shrink into the cowardice you describe - if we will accept it and be trained by it.  We have a living relationship with Jesus, Light, Strength - through faith in Him.  

The fool however folds his hands and eats his own flesh - kind of like eating the seed rather than planting it.

butterbattle wrote:

Oh cool, this thread is still active.

Hi Fonzie!

 

 

Hi Miss B,

I just read your blog.  What sets off your short fuse?

Now, the problem is this - if you were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity, why should I believe you about Jesus? _{25^th time}

Which do you value more, the truth (a) or your beliefs (b)?

Demonstrably false, as it took more than a thousand years for the message to cross the ocean, and there are still people alive today who've never been told about christianity.

I found out about christianity about the same time as the moslems and jews. So I'd already been exposed to multiple gods, and the christian god was just another to add to the list.

I rejected them all as lies, because that's what they are. Every religion I've rejected makes claims that are known to be false. I rejected them in favour of the truth, not for any other reason.

The whole die to be born anew isn't even proper use of the terminology. Noone dies by taking up christianity. They certainly aren't born a second time. When theists have to hijack words to give them new meaning I just shake my head at the dramatising. How is it not obvious to you that it's all a bunch of hooey designed and tested and refined over thousands of years to tug at your emotions?

Faith has also allowed mothers to drown their babies and fathers to stone them. Faith is a two edged sword. It can do good, and it can do evil. Unquestioning belief in anything is dangerous. Especially something that has no evidence, that everyone and their mother can interpret differently.

The fool holds his own hands and rejects the reality of life and the universe to make himself feel like he is more than he is.

Hi Butter! Good to see you!

Fonzie wrote:

Yes there is a place for hearing and preaching, people being sent to preach.  "But I ask, have they not heard?  Indeed they have, for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth and their words to the ends of the world'."

Demonstrably false, as it took more than a thousand years for the message to cross the ocean, and there are still people alive today who've never been told about christianity.

Fonzie wrote:

And you are no exception.  You have heard the gospel... and rejected it in favor of the psychological life you now have which maybe you think is as good as it gets.

I have not heard the gospel, whatever that is. I know your religion exists, but I learned about it after learning about Roman and Greek and Norse mythology. I found out about christianity about the same time as the moslems and jews. So I'd already been exposed to multiple gods, and the christian god was just another to add to the list. I rejected them all as lies, because that's what they are. Every religion I've rejected makes claims that are known to be false. I rejected them in favour of the truth, not for any other reason.

Fonzie wrote:

Maybe you're like these Greeks that came to take a look at Jesus after He had raised Lazarus.  Jesus made an interesting statement to them.  "Truly truly I say to you unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit.  Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

That doesn't make any sense.

Fonzie wrote:

You have life on a certain level, maybe it could be described as psychological I don't know.  But you don't really know Jesus or really know life because you aren't willing to die to yourself and be born anew into Him and be raised to the life that is life indeed - spiritual life in Christ.  You have the seed which you love and won't plant so it can die and spring up to eternal life.

Nothing is eternal. Entropy tears it all down. This is one of the lies that prove christianity false. I know life far better than any theist does, because I don't pretend it has qualities that are impossible. The whole die to be born anew isn't even proper use of the terminology. Noone dies by taking up christianity. They certainly aren't born a second time. When theists have to hijack words to give them new meaning I just shake my head at the dramatising. How is it not obvious to you that it's all a bunch of hooey designed and tested and refined over thousands of years to tug at your emotions?

Fonzie wrote:

As far as a life of faith being courageous or cowardly as you mis-represent it (hijacking the plane metaphor to justify your position) - the lives of men who lived by faith and didn't shrink back speaks for itself: they stopped the mouth of lions, they were made strong out of weakness, ...etc.  all these, though commended through their faith did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

So faith can allow someone to stand in the face of death and laugh. So what? I can do that too, and I have no faith in a god or afterlife. Faith has also allowed mothers to drown their babies and fathers to stone them. Faith is a two edged sword. It can do good, and it can do evil. Unquestioning belief in anything is dangerous. Especially something that has no evidence, that everyone and their mother can interpret differently.

Fonzie wrote:

God has offered His Son and the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit to those of us who are "born anew" into Christ Jesus.  We are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses" and are exhorted and challenged to lay aside every weight and run with endurance the race that is set before us - like Jesus, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the Cross, despising the shame and is now seated at the Right Hand of the Throne of God.   We are exhorted to live by faith - and if we shrink back God doesn't take pleasure in it.  He will discipline us however and train us and coach us so we won't shrink into the cowardice you describe - if we will accept it and be trained by it.  We have a living relationship with Jesus, Light, Strength - through faith in Him.   The fool however folds his hands and eats his own flesh - kind of like eating the seed rather than planting it.

You keep claiming god is a teacher, but he doesn't want to teach. What you have is comfort in a lie that allows you to mentally reject the inevitable and final death that awaits everyone. In and of itself that seems innocent and harmless enough to let you cling to your denial of reality. Unfortunately it has been coupled with the drive to force that belief on everyone else. Even if you personally don't subscribe to that practice, more christians do than don't. The fool holds his own hands and rejects the reality of life and the universe to make himself feel like he is more than he is.

1: Why would god hide it?  

2: Perfection doesn't exist.

3: Redemption can only come from changing while you live. Once dead, it is too late.

4: Ressurection is impossible.

First of all, the death of one person cannot pay the price for the sins of an entire species.

Secondly, death cannot pay the price for any sin anyway.

Thirdly, the idea that all mankind was corrupted because of the choice of one person is ridiculous.

I've not read the whole bible and I never will, because the characterisation of god shows him to be evil.

Now, the problem is this - if you were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity, why should I believe you about Jesus? _{26^th time}

Fonzie wrote:

WISDOM TO ONE IS FOOLISHNESS TO ANOTHER

That sword cuts two ways.

Fonzie wrote:

The gospel (Good News) is the mystery God hid for ages now revealed in the Perfect Life, Redeeming Death and subsequent Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1: Why would god hide it? 2: Perfection doesn't exist. 3: Redemption can only come from changing while you live. Once dead, it is too late. 4: Ressurection is impossible.

Fonzie wrote:

Prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit to give prophecies about it, inquired as to the meaning of what they were prophesying but it wasn't explained.

No prophecy which is not subject to interpretation has ever come true. Prophecies subject to interpretation are wrong and right simultaneously, but irrelevant because anyone can make such a prophecy.

Fonzie wrote:

that God was going to send His Son to be sacrificed and become the Lamb of God that pays the price for all the sins of all mankind for all time

First of all, the death of one person cannot pay the price for the sins of an entire species. Secondly, death cannot pay the price for any sin anyway. Thirdly, the idea that all mankind was corrupted because of the choice of one person is ridiculous.

Fonzie wrote:

It was the death of Death - Death had nothing on Him

Death won't die until everything is dead, if such is even possible.

Fonzie wrote:

and He Rose to an Indestructible Life, never to die again, ascended into heaven, sent the Holy Spirit, is coming back, etc, etc.  

Nothing is indestructable. Not even nothing, in theory. There is no heaven. Ascend too high and you freeze to death and suffocate simultaneously. No dead hero ever has nor ever will return.

Fonzie wrote:

The difference of trying to live and pay for your own sins versus receiving God's Righteousness which is a Gift (and walking by faith) - is worlds apart.

I agree. Living with the sins of your god is much different than living responsibly. If god wants to give me something all he has to do is say so.

Fonzie wrote:

BUT...you're not interested in any of this and have your reasons why - reasons that satisfy you there in Canada, (or satisfy the Canadian in you).

Canada has nothing to do with this discussion.

Fonzie wrote:

I don't have any eloquence or divine revelation that can change you or that or out debate you.  I could wish I did but know that's not the way things work.  The Bible says that when you hear the gospel and either believe it or don't believe it you judge yourself worthy or unworthy (before God).  The gospel is as good as it gets - and it's good enough for me.  In it I see more than enough proof that God will do what He says, Knows what He's doing, Loves and has man's best interests in mind in every way...but that's just me.

Well not me. I've not read the whole bible and I never will, because the characterisation of god shows him to be evil. Job alone should be enough to turn any decent human being against god. No compassionate, loving being would treat someone so horribly just to make a point in an argument. Mans future is in the hands of man. We've a long ways to go to becoming a species worth respect, but we've already come a long way from where we were. We might screw up and kill ourselves, or we might get things right one day and travel the universe. The only certainty is that no god has anything to do with our future. It is up to us.

 

 

 

 

 

Vas,

Well, you are definitely on a different road, a dirty sinful road, ...you're in the category of categorically not believing everything I believe and have faith in... which is it's own seperate category.  Because I have faith in what I believe in and I believe in faith , and believing and having faith in things, you know what I'm sayin' ?     I have no reason to think you're not being honest about your awful, filthy sin.  Do you believe me ?

The questions you come up with "why did God do it this way?" are not questions to me at all.   Why ? ... because God doesn't like it when his lowly, sniveling servants like me start asking questions !  Besides, God scares the shit out of me, I mean Jesus ! have you read the Old Testament ? He's killed more people than the Devil ever thought about killing ! Smashing babies against rocks, killing first borns and drowing the whole damned world. He's like the world's most prolific serial killer.

 

Okay where was I ?    Oh yeah, ....God dwells in the heavens and does what He pleases just like you dwell in Canada, ... but God doesn't have a current passport so I don't think he lives in Canada at the moment.  I could be wrong, though.   Also, God told me to tell you to do what you please (since you're your own god) - and though I don't understand the why of a lot of it (and I don't have to 'cause I'm not very bright ) I'm totally confident he knows what He's doing ....even if he does it all wrong and screws everything up again.   And for me to not accept any trial that comes to me would be to say God doesn't know what He's doing.  I've been through things I didn't understand at the time but they proved to be great in the long run.  Except for all the stuff that didn't turn out good  ....but I don't want to talk about that.  I'm still kind of pissed off at God but I can't tell him since he's very emotionally unstable. You know "It's a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God" etc.

We may have a Guiness record going on opposites... but I'm probably just exaggerating to be dramatic.

I do appreciate the straightforward way you said I was a delusional idiot without all the extraneous stuff - let the reader understand -  but at the same time I have no doubts frankly that you're totally wrong, because that's what I believe, and believing you're wrong makes me feel right.     These idols you have will fall off the shelf (actually get knocked off, do you own cats ?).  The Bible would be a great read for you, especially when you can't fall asleep at night.  Just start reading and before you know it you'll be yawning.  If you get through Numbers you'll be well on your way to a good night's sleep.  That's what I believe, and I have faith, I have faith in what I believe and believing in faith strengthens my faith.  You better believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prozac,

Are you the new wave of identity theft?

I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate me speaking for you and putting your name on it.