It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Offline Fascinating. Of course you are confident that I am wrong - That is exactly what I would expect you to say.
I can tell you that your assumptions about me show you how little you comprehend about my actual outlook on life. Even your reference to 'test-tubes' reveals that you know little about the breadth of and reach of science (where test-tubes are not very relevant to most areas of study), but see it in terms of old stereotypes of 'science'. Are you even faintly aware of the field of neuro-science and its implications on how our minds function? This is far more interesting to me currently than Physics, and contributes to understanding how religious views can come to have such a powerful hold on so many people.
Of course I am still interested in all areas of Science which contribute significantly to our understanding of reality and our place within it.
It is interesting that I am quite happy to accept that you are truly happy, while you seem to assume that I only think I'm happy. Feeling happy about one's beliefs does not require that those beliefs are actually true, only that you firmly believe they are true.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Fascinating. Of course you are confident that I am wrong - That is exactly what I would expect you to say.
I can tell you that your assumptions about me show you how little you comprehend about my actual outlook on life. Even your reference to 'test-tubes' reveals that you know little about the breadth of and reach of science (where test-tubes are not very relevant to most areas of study), but see it in terms of old stereotypes of 'science'. Are you even faintly aware of the field of neuro-science and its implications on how our minds function? This is far more interesting to me currently than Physics, and contributes to understanding how religious views can come to have such a powerful hold on so many people.
Of course I am still interested in all areas of Science which contribute significantly to our understanding of reality and our place within it.
It is interesting that I am quite happy to accept that you are truly happy, while you seem to assume that I only think I'm happy. Feeling happy about one's beliefs does not require that those beliefs are actually true, only that you firmly believe they are true.
BOB,
But it's logical. If you are right - then I have just been deluded and not been the mad scientist I could have.
But if I am right you have everything to lose. Thus while you are free to weigh and titrate your decision there is a time limit and dark side to love. Wisdom invites you cordially to Her banquet with Christ - even gives the menu. But if you refuse Her for the "school of fools" - Wisdom will laugh at your calamity. I would be just another "daffodils and rainbows" friend to be happy you're happy about your deluded happiness - like fakery I'm sure even science has exposed to you.
The fact that God sent His Only Begotten Son to die for our sins and raised Him from the dead to now sit at God's Right Hand interceding for us shows how serious He Is and how serious the decision is. If you aren't moved by this but insist on playing with your science kit - hey, you might even figure out how Noah's boat floats...but you aren't on it.
You've got your hands full figuring out what's happening with the happy neurons; but how smart is it to not use the ones that are still working to mine the Wisdom of God? And why would it be logical for me to be happy you're happy with what you've got when rightly seen...it's fool's gold?
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Offline But it's logical. If you are right - then I have just been deluded and not been the mad scientist I could have.
But if I am right you have everything to lose.
You're quite mistaken. If you turn out to be wrong, you've wasted your entire life, the only one you get, on a delusional lie. The wasted potential of your life approaches infinity, and is not restricted to scientific endeavours.
You might even discover you worshipped the wrong god, and find yourself in the unenviable position of being gods enemy.
If we are wrong, then god might slap our hands and tell us to get in line, but nothing more. A truly good god wouldn't punish people for actions and beliefs based on common sense.
The fact is your god and his son are both lies you've swallowed, and as a result you're fucked whether or not there is a god. You think your belief is extremely serious, when in reality it is a joke in bad taste and nothing more.
In b4 the censor troll fails to accomplish anything yet again.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline Oh please, not the silliness of 'Pascal's Wager'. If I am right, it says nothing about either of us being some kind of 'scientist'. Pascal's wager ignored the infinite number of other options, such as different kinds of Gods, many Gods, evil or indifferent to us.
I have never been a scientist, mad or otherwise. I follow in print and podcast the genuine, demonstrable advances in knowledge generated by Science, and reject the delusions and deeply flawed morality pushed by the believers in religions of all kinds. I do not spend any time 'figuring out' what's happening in people's brains at the level of neurons, although I do adjust my judgment of other people's behaviour to some extent based on the best current 'science of mind'.
Science is our only chance to rescue the people of the world from the suffering of the many diseases that God, if he exists, chose to torment us and our children, with, including the current threat of Ebola. There is no logical argument that such a being must necessarily be 'good', and a wealth of evidence that 'God' is definitely NOT a being who deserves veneration or worship in any sense. There are also many demonstrations of the futility of prayer, which some people use instead of proven treatments, leading to unnecessary deaths of their children. These are just a few of the reasons that I emphatically reject religious belief.
I also find the primitive idea behind the crucifixion story of 'blood sacrifice' to appease a god, at best, irrelevant to morality, at worst, inconsistent with any decent code.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Yet despite this Revelation, the Troll-Feeder(s) carried on, failing to accomplish anything, for it was still quite easy to duplicate the Troll's nonsense:
You're quite mistaken. If you turn out to be wrong, you've wasted your entire life, the only one you get, on a delusional lie.The wasted potential of your life approaches infinity, and is not restricted to scientific endeavours.
You might even discover you worshipped the wrong god, and find yourself in the unenviable position of being gods enemy.
A truly good god wouldn't punish people for actions and beliefs based on common sense.
The fact is your god and his son are both lies you've swallowed, and as a result you're fucked whether or not there is a god. You think your belief is extremely serious, when in reality it is a joke in bad taste and nothing more.
There are no theists on operating tables.
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Offline Re :: Transformations Atheists may be a lycan coven
Man!! Why is it that I do miss all the good stuff . .
Blub for original Canadian series (naturally I entirely missed it) . .
''Ginger Snaps” is a fun piece of Canadian cinema that manages to somehow feel Canadian without being obviously Canadian-made (what's not to like). But that’s not the focus of this post, just an aside. The real focus of this post is something else entirely: it is about the sad state of the genre of horror films (featuring female protagonists), where the subject of which is more about teenage sexual anxiety, as is found in the original series of “Ginger Snaps” is one such film.
In a nutshell, “Ginger Snaps” is about two teenage sisters – Brigitte and Ginger. Morbid loners, they amuse themselves by staging death scenes and photographing them, and generally stay on the outskirts of their high school’s social scene (the archetypical deliquents, mentioned in previous posts). One night, Ginger is bitten by something (what we later find out was a dying werewolf). As the film progresses, Ginger slowly transforms into a lustful, savage creature, finally mutating completely into a monstrous wolf.
Out by about fifteen~ish, or dead on the scene :: (Out by the fifteenth , or dead on the scene) ..'', says the bloggist. And, Information leading to the safe return of these formally nice outcasts will be rewarded . . As is mentioned above, “Ginger Snaps” is really about a truly taboo subject of sexual anxietes. Ginger’s transformation into a sex-crazed beast is most certainly a metaphor for puberty and the hormonal changes that accompany it, undoubtedly '' Oh, So, sad (sad)!!
Re :: .. the crackling of thorns under a pot . .
THE SHORT - SIGHTED "LOL" OF ATHEISM
You obviously meant to say, but it must have simply slipped your mind to say out-loud King James Bible -- ''For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, ..so is the laughter of the fool: this also is vanity.''
Word to the wise KNOW THE REFERENCE !!
Example of making statements without any first hand knowledge at even the most cursorily superficial level, by the smug Jeano
Ref . -- http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279?page=10#comment-354022
If you dont bother to click on the link it reads as follows ::
re: How about sit down and read some of the materials ?
Quote:bobspence1 wrote: what is the ultimate reference point before you have a proper reference pointQuote:Jean_chauvin wrote: To say that the Sumerian Text is older and thus more reliable or true is the logical fallcy of Appeal to Antiquity / Tradition.Should we just brush aside older texts with respect to their possible implications as it relates to the Bible? Not to break anyone's balls but I have noticed it is obvious too many have never sat down and read Sumerian and Ugaritic texts. (it would help if they had).
--- -- ---
I have nuzzles
Bible passage of the hour, not the week . . .
2 Samuel -- And David said, “It is my voice, my lord the king.” Then he said, “Why is my lord pursuing after his servant? For what have I done? And what evil is in my hand? 19 And so then, please let my lord the king listen to the words of his servant: If Yahweh has incited you against me, may He delight in an offering; but if it is mortals, may they be accursed before the LORD, for they have driven me away today from sharing in the inheritance of the divine theophany, saying, ‘Go, serve other gods!’ And so then, do not let my blood fall to the ground away from the presence of **Yahweh, for the king of Israel has gone out to seek a single flea, as one hunts a partridge in the mountains.” Then Saul said, “I have sinned! Come back, David my son, for I will not harm you again, because my life was precious in your eyes this day''
FootNote :: I am YHWH. I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El-Shaddai; but (by) my name YHWH I was not known to them.
וַיְדַבֵּר אֱלֹהִים אֶל־מֹשֶׁה וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו אֲנִי יְהוָֽה׃ וָאֵרָא אֶל־אַבְרָהָם אֶל־יִצְחָק וְאֶֽל־יַעֲקֹב בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה לֹא נוֹדַעְתִּי לָהֶֽם
[ . . . ]
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Offline Oh please, not the silliness of 'Pascal's Wager'. If I am right, it says nothing about either of us being some kind of 'scientist'. Pascal's wager ignored the infinite number of other options, such as different kinds of Gods, many Gods, evil or indifferent to us.
I have never been a scientist, mad or otherwise. I follow in print and podcast the genuine, demonstrable advances in knowledge generated by Science, and reject the delusions and deeply flawed morality pushed by the believers in religions of all kinds. I do not spend any time 'figuring out' what's happening in people's brains at the level of neurons, although I do adjust my judgment of other people's behaviour to some extent based on the best current 'science of mind'.
Science is our only chance to rescue the people of the world from the suffering of the many diseases that God, if he exists, chose to torment us and our children, with, including the current threat of Ebola. There is no logical argument that such a being must necessarily be 'good', and a wealth of evidence that 'God' is definitely NOT a being who deserves veneration or worship in any sense. There are also many demonstrations of the futility of prayer, which some people use instead of proven treatments, leading to unnecessary deaths of their children. These are just a few of the reasons that I emphatically reject religious belief.
I also find the primitive idea behind the crucifixion story of 'blood sacrifice' to appease a god, at best, irrelevant to morality, at worst, inconsistent with any decent code.
BOB,
I understand you are a big fan of science and proven facts. So does that allow you to address your ignorance on the subject of God and the Bible and the meaning of suffering in sweeping statements of speculation accompanied with your workbook of non-evidenced un-tried conclusions?
What if I started talking on science subjects and saying, "if they exist" - then I proceed to give you a formula and a conclusion and a lecture on something I don't believe exists AND admittedly don't know anything about? You wouldn't consider me very scientific - and I don't consider you a good representative of your self-proclaimed scientific method and mind - as applied to God and His Word and His Son. You know nothing about all this because you haven't accepted it or experienced it. It's remote to you so why don't you just admit it instead of doing the opposite of what you claim runs your life - proven facts. I'm not asking you to give me a Bible lesson about a God you don't know or accept and a Book you don't believe.
As I've stated before, Jesus rejected religious fakes - which may be what you mean when you mention "I reject religious belief" with disdain. Jesus had the strongest rebukes for hypocritical religious fakes that trusted in their Abrahamic blood, their ceremonies or trusted in what they perceived as their own righteous empty hearted acts. I believe in Jesus. He is my Righteousness. I don't know what you can find wrong with Him. I find everything Eternally Right in Him.
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Offline Once again, you seem to wrongly assume that I only study stuff which is the subject of scientific investigation, and can be scientifically verified. Not so. I have had a long interest in Philosophy. My favourite writer in this area is Bertrand Russell, whose History of Western Philosophy I read from cover to cover while attending University. I also like David Hume, though I can't claim to have read his work at first hand. I don't expect you to be too impressed by references to such people as the atheist/agnostic Russell or the very skeptical Hume.
I do NOT 'run my life' on 'proven' facts, just what seem to be ideas best supported by well conducted scientific studies, where relevant, or consistent with other ideas and concepts which I find fit with my current thinking on such things, in the case of less 'scientifically' defined areas of thought.
Regarding God(s) - no-one really can know, indeed cannot know anything with any valid certainty about such entities, if they indeed exist. It is all ultimately speculation, highly subject to fallible human intuitions and assumptions. Individuals such as the hypothetical Jesus may indeed have been very sincere in their beliefs, but they were still just beliefs, not knowledge. Jesus does not come out and unequivocally condemn the practice of slavery, which is definitely a problem for anyone wishing to hold him up as some sublimely righteous and moral person.
I have followed many debates and discussions on relgious topics, so your assumption that I am quite ignorant on what they are about is just an assumption.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline In b4 the censor troll continues to make a fool of himself by being as irrational as a theist, but less productive since everyone is ignoring him.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline [In before and/or after those who fruitlessly pursue meaningful conversation with a dishonest Troll whose nonsense can be easily reproduced...]
I do NOT 'run my life' on 'proven' facts, just what seem to be ideas best supported by well conducted scientific studies, where relevant, or consistent with other ideas and concepts which I find fit with my current thinking on such things, in the case of less 'scientifically' defined areas of thought.
Regarding God(s) - no-one really can know, indeed cannot know anything with any valid certainty about such entities, if they indeed exist. It is all ultimately speculation, highly subject to fallible human intuitions and assumptions. Individuals such as the hypothetical Jesus may indeed have been very sincere in their beliefs, but they were still just beliefs, not knowledge. Jesus does not come out and unequivocally condemn the practice of slavery, which is definitely a problem for anyone wishing to hold him up as some sublimely righteous and moral person.
There are no theists on operating tables.
| ππ | π† |
| π† | †† |
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Offline Once again, you seem to wrongly assume that I only study stuff which is the subject of scientific investigation, and can be scientifically verified. Not so. I have had a long interest in Philosophy. My favourite writer in this area is Bertrand Russell, whose History of Western Philosophy I read from cover to cover while attending University. I also like David Hume, though I can't claim to have read his work at first hand. I don't expect you to be too impressed by references to such people as the atheist/agnostic Russell or the very skeptical Hume.
I do NOT 'run my life' on 'proven' facts, just what seem to be ideas best supported by well conducted scientific studies, where relevant, or consistent with other ideas and concepts which I find fit with my current thinking on such things, in the case of less 'scientifically' defined areas of thought.
Regarding God(s) - no-one really can know, indeed cannot know anything with any valid certainty about such entities, if they indeed exist. It is all ultimately speculation, highly subject to fallible human intuitions and assumptions. Individuals such as the hypothetical Jesus may indeed have been very sincere in their beliefs, but they were still just beliefs, not knowledge. Jesus does not come out and unequivocally condemn the practice of slavery, which is definitely a problem for anyone wishing to hold him up as some sublimely righteous and moral person.
I have followed many debates and discussions on relgious topics, so your assumption that I am quite ignorant on what they are about is just an assumption.
Bob,
I'm sure you know a lot of things I don't and yet it's true that faith in God and Jesus and the Word of God is not an IQ test. The beginning of knowledge is fear of the LORD - so you haven't even got started (as in Proverbs the first).
I claim to know I am in Christ and He is in me - just as He promised in His last discussion with His disciples before He was crucified. I believe Jesus - what He said and what He did and that He Lives now in His people. I'm not taking a poll on that so your opinion doesn't register.
Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world so He didn't come to wow you with a political statement on slavery, but His Salvation can make the slave truly free nonetheless. (not to your thinking or imagination or liking, but for sure to the slave who experiences real Freedom in Christ). The book of Philemon is a letter Paul sends with a believing slave back to his believing master.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Mod edit: Eh, deleted most of your o's, which were making the page ridiculously wide.
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Hey You guys . . see moving it over to here then .. Otay!?
Butterbattle formatting issue I just cut en pasted
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Offline 'Faith' is 'strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'. That is a standard dictionary definition. So you can't justify belief by referring to 'faith' - that is logically backward.
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that our minds are very fallible and strongly biased toward clinging to our pre-existing assumption and intuitions, and we need more than just strong convictions as to thr truth of those
things, IOW, independent evidence from multiple sources. That is the ideal of Science, but even in cases where it would be difficult to rigorously apply such principles, we should try to apply thrmas far as possible, especially the idea of multiple independent sources.
Our own ideas can well be, in fact usually are, the initial origin of some fresh claim, but cannot be the sole basis if is to be taken seriously.
You are making a very poor, indeed, invalid argument in attempting to claim Jesus was somehow fixing the problem of slavery in the 'Salvation' you believe his sacrifice on the cross made available to everyone.
On that principle, He needn't have done or said anything about any of the things he did denounce. You are just trying to avoid the issue, rathere than honestly admitting a clear flaw in the teachings.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline 'Faith' is 'strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof'. That is a standard dictionary definition. So you can't justify belief by referring to 'faith' - that is logically backward.
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that our minds are very fallible and strongly biased toward clinging to our pre-existing assumption and intuitions, and we need more than just strong convictions as to thr truth of those
things, IOW, independent evidence from multiple sources. That is the ideal of Science, but even in cases where it would be difficult to rigorously apply such principles, we should try to apply thrmas far as possible, especially the idea of multiple independent sources.
Our own ideas can well be, in fact usually are, the initial origin of some fresh claim, but cannot be the sole basis if is to be taken seriously.
You are making a very poor, indeed, invalid argument in attempting to claim Jesus was somehow fixing the problem of slavery in the 'Salvation' you believe his sacrifice on the cross made available to everyone.
On that principle, He needn't have done or said anything about any of the things he did denounce. You are just trying to avoid the issue, rathere than honestly admitting a clear flaw in the teachings.
Bob,
In this case faith is in a person/God (100% GOD 100% MAN) JESUS Who died for our sins and rose from the grave with an Indestructable Life, ascended to Heaven, sits Right Hand to the Throne of God - and sent the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) to be with us 24/7. There is ALSO the Written Word as you referred which Jesus is in Perfect harmony with - but there is also the Living Christ Who is living in us. LIFE INDEED!
Just as Israel was delivered from Egypt and went through the Red Sea on dry land we have been delivered from our Egypt of sin and baptized into Christ. On the first Day of Pentecost (50 days later) Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai on tablets of stone. On the last Day of Pentecost (50 days after Jesus' crucifixion) the Law of God was written this time on the hearts of men. We have not been baptized into the Red Sea and Moses (we don't have that reality to think about) - but we HAVE been baptized (born anew) into Jesus Christ (we have MUCH MORE to think about - much more renewing Power at work in us).
We who are His have His Spirit in us which enables us to understand the things of God and the Word of God (just like your spirit enables you to understand the things that interest you - Hume, science, philosophy). But in this case the Spirit of God shows us the things of God just like your spirit shows you what you want to think, what seems exciting to you, new ideas whatever.
The Bible defines faith as evidence of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen. I have both proving themselves in a living way every day in real time.
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Offline In b4 the censor troll still doesn't get it. lol
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline ESV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
KJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NIV: Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. NLT: Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. The term 'evidence' only seems to be applied to "things not seen", NOT to "things hoped for", and then only in the KJV and related versions. "Assurance about things we cannot see" seems clearer. Without trying to argue about what exactly is meant by 'evidence', all the other quotes all seem to define 'faith' as a personal confidence or conviction in the truth of some claim, IOW nothing remotely amounting to "proof" of the truth of the claim. So what do you have to prove the truth of your many claims about God and Jesus? I agree that you certainly have confidence/conviction/assurance etc. in those statements, but that's just another way of saying you believe them strongly, and without clear evidence, that just means you have faith. Now why do you have such confidence in the Truth of those statements?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Prediction: Response will be strikingly similar to:
You can't prove there isn't a God. You believe it - I believe you are sincere - but that's your faith. You can't prove it. I believe there is a God. I believe He designed, made the world and everything in it. I believe the sun, moon, stars, and penguins show great design - just to name a couple. I think you guys have more faith than I do when it comes to believing preposterous stuff. My hat's off to your great faith - it's just illogical faith to me. Man could not even make one acorn or one bee - this is evident to you guys. You can't explain magnetism or gravity - yet you think there was no designer? Great faith I say.
» "what faith you" September 6, 2007
There are no theists on operating tables.
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Offline BobSpence wrote:ESV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
KJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NIV: Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. NLT: Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. The term 'evidence' only seems to be applied to "things not seen", NOT to "things hoped for", and then only in the KJV and related versions. "Assurance about things we cannot see" seems clearer. Without trying to argue about what exactly is meant by 'evidence', all the other quotes all seem to define 'faith' as a personal confidence or conviction in the truth of some claim, IOW nothing remotely amounting to "proof" of the truth of the claim. So what do you have to prove the truth of your many claims about God and Jesus? I agree that you certainly have confidence/conviction/assurance etc. in those statements, but that's just another way of saying you believe them strongly, and without clear evidence, that just means you have faith. Now why do you have such confidence in the Truth of those statements?
Bob,
When we are "born anew" into Christ (becoming part of the body of Christ, Christ being Head) - born of the water and the Spirit; we are promised to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is referred to as the "guarantee of our inheritance" until we acquire posession of it. How would something be a guarantee if you couldn't know you had it? I don't know how it works but I'm experiencing it. I have the guarantee and God has enabled me to know it.
With the eye of faith and the Light of the Holy Spirit we see the Truth of the Word of God and are able to understand it. We know the Master's Voice.
The Word of God is "Living and Active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We have that going for us. Again, I don't know how it works but I KNOW it does work.
Another thing is the fact that there is no writing ANYWHERE NEAR LIKE the Word of God; in fact, after reading it and tasting it - it is hard to read anything else without thinking, "I'm wasting my time". Nothing else reads like it - the Master's Voice. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness.
Then there is the workout of exercising one's faith. Good food is necessary (the Word of God) - then exercise (give up your way and try what God says). In this way you come to KNOW the meaning of the Word of God in an intimate way. Anyone can be led TO a Truth. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will "LEAD YOU INTO ALL TRUTH". When you apply the truth you have stepped into the dimension of exercising your faith - and it gets stronger.
Here's a proverb for you Bob: The heart knows its own bitterness - and no stranger shares its joy. Thus; I can tell you about my evidence but in order for you to experience it you have to go into the dimension of its application.
I remember once experiencing a profound feeling of finally being free of the last vestiges of concern that there really might be something to the kind of religious talk that you are presenting to me. It felt deeply and intensely liberating. I cannot prove it was truly compaparable to the experiences you describe, of course, but it was definitely way beyond the 'normal' feelings of learning new things from reading or listening to new things, so I suspect it had some affinity to that class of experience.
What you have described easily fits within the range of internal subjective experiences that I understand can be generated by various religious and other related mental disciplines and practices, without requiring the entities believed in to really exist..
You certainly would have to be primed with many preconceptions to 'see' any Biblical texts the way you describe. I personally find them very confused and showing fairly primitive understanding of reality, often including what I find some deeply offensive ideas on how one should regard and treat other people, especially women, children, and as I said earlier, slaves.
I also have read and listened to the accounts of quite a few people who have been committed Christians, even preachers, but eventually lost their 'faith' and became 'unbelievers'. Their stories provide a strong counterpoint to your viewpoint.
I am not impressed. sorry. You are not remotely challenging my personal outlook, although I do find your account provides some interesting insights into your world-view, which is why I am continuing to discuss this with you.
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Stick a tiger under her feet and there you go (View/See :: Image)
. . felicitations of the season
re :: Felicitations of the season (Name that Image . . )
The truth frees me from pressure to provide you with evidence of God, Jesus' dying for our sins and coming back to life, and His living in the Christian, becausethat is a gift of sight only God can choose to give you. I have all the evidence I need for that though. We who have been "born again" - "born anew" - "born of the water and the Spirit"
have been "sealed with the gift and guarantee of the Holy Spirit". It wouldn't be much of a guarantee if you didn't know you had it, and we come to know we do. (The Holy Spirit is there even
before we come to realize He is, it just takes some time). I experience the presence of God all day long and let me tell you - it's great to be in fellowship with God in Christ. I have evidence
plenty for myself - you will have to get your own oil and your own fire for your lamp from God if you get it. If you want it I'm sure He'll give it to you - there won't be any in hell who can say,
"I cried out to Jesus but He wouldn't save me". It's your fault if you don't want it enough to cry out.
My bad . I didnt even know it Fonzie, I guess you actually did mention the word Hell one time I could google up for everyone afterall . .
Cross-Thread Interplay ( not as totally random as it might first appear to most )
View / See :: Something to see Image part of comment --
Be very careful that you don't end up with the 'wrong' girl .. Hey, it's just about time you came beside me, to helpfully figuare it out, K?
=====================
[ . . . ]
Written in A. E. Bray's Traditions of Devonshire UK Variant --
Sunday's Born, is fair of face & Never shall we want; Monday's Born, is full of Grace;
Tuesday's Born, is solem and sad; Wednesday’s Born is full of woe, Thursday’s Born has
far to go, Friday’s Born is loving and giving, Saturday’s Born works hard for a living,
And the child that is born on the Sabbath day -- It is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
Yosef J. Jones --
---- --- ----
Our two hearts aligned as one
they found a new harmonic beat
in tune with the carefree life under the sun.
Then hand in hand we watched
as nature's delicate brush painted the fall
in shades of reds and brown upon the trees
as we walked along the streets of our dreams.
We both knew the bouquet of leaves
would soon fall prey to autumn's wind
leaving a blank canvas for winter's snowy embrace
all to soon fall upon once again upon the limbs..
Time moved ever so slowly through the seasons of our love
as we together watched nature run its course
yet like all tomorrows ours was destined to become
~ Yosef J. Jones --
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Offline ESV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
KJV: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NIV: Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. NLT: Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. The term 'evidence' only seems to be applied to "things not seen", NOT to "things hoped for", and then only in the KJV and related versions. "Assurance about things we cannot see" seems clearer. Without trying to argue about what exactly is meant by 'evidence', all the other quotes all seem to define 'faith' as a personal confidence or conviction in the truth of some claim, IOW nothing remotely amounting to "proof" of the truth of the claim. So what do you have to prove the truth of your many claims about God and Jesus? I agree that you certainly have confidence/conviction/assurance etc. in those statements, but that's just another way of saying you believe them strongly, and without clear evidence, that just means you have faith. Now why do you have such confidence in the Truth of those statements?
Bob - is that your answer at the bottom of 3884? (I don't want to assume that). Would you or Vas fix that?
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Offline I'm not entirely sure what happened, and thusly do not feel comfortable attempting to do anything.
I'll say what I think happened though. If I'm right, I did it to caposkia once by accident, as Bob has perhaps done here:
The hotlinks at the bottom of a post, for a moderator, look like this: delete edit reply prune quote
It can be easy to hit edit instead of reply or quote, and not notice. If that happens, then when the moderator hits Post Comment, the original post is replaced.
If this happened, the best I can do is revert your post (assuming the quotes are representative of the entire text; if not the remaining text is already lost), and then post Bob's response under my name (I can't post for Bob). But if I do this, I'm making a few assumptions I'm not comfortable with. Best to wait for him to see and evaluate the situation.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Offline Lets see if I can clarify: my reply to Fonzie appears currently in the last part of #3884 starting with "I remember once experiencing a profound feeling of finally being free of the last vestiges of concern that there really might be something to the kind "...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Lets see if I can clarify: my reply to Fonzie appears currently in the last part of #3884 starting with "I remember once experiencing a profound feeling of finally being free of the last vestiges of concern that there really might be something to the kind "...
Hey Bob -
Thanks for clearing that up. Even though it "read" like you... I didn't want to use my internal subjective experience to assume it was.
And I didn't expect you to be impressed with my described faith in Christ BTW - no surprise there.
I'm in the process of watching Dawkins' production: "The God Delusion" - only part way through - and I'm seeing more where you're coming from in some of your statements. No surprise to you either I'm sure: I'm not impressed or sorry. From my view that Dawkins looks like one unhappy scientific rock-stocking dude.
But hey, I wonder if he has the answers to the big scientific questions of life - why we are here, where we came from, where we are going, what represents REAL help of fellow man, is there a standard of right and wrong (and why?), and what should motivate you every moment to be upbeat, hopeful, strong, unafraid of death and confident about stepping into the next dimension. Maybe he could come on and lay that out if he's still in his earthly tabernacle.
I think as you said you were "freed at last"!...but only from... ?misconceptions? - maybe not, and of course like you I can't prove it compares/contrasts with my experience. But if it was a "feeling" you were looking for as you say... - well, a "feeling" you found. But?! ... maybe even if you saw things as they ARE you still wouldn't want God and Jesus and Life in The Spirit I don't know and can't use my internal subjective experience to find out. It's possible I guess - and beyond my imagination.
Actually I would say that rather than being "primed" to make me accept the Word of God I was inoculated with a weak mechanical dose of it - but I sensed and knew the Treasure was there. And - Death Valley be damned - I was going to have it. And have IT I have.
Now, as you mention, there are "drop outs" in all races, pursuits, colleges, marriages, and faith, etc.. I'm not sure what your point is there, I mean going to them for truth - unless it's like some "quit smoking" ads I used to hear on the radio where they went to people that hadn't been able to quit and ask them (you guessed it) HOW TO QUIT! That's how to find truth, right? Ask people who couldn't, quit, gave up. Now that's scientific method.
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Wrong move for off-site but right move to serve as a brief brief reminder to Mr Fonz . .
Hey! BobSpence just said . . ''Fascinating . . Feeling happy about one's beliefs does not require that those beliefs are actually true, only that you firmly believe they are true''
Potentiality FOUND in various things thought of, that are, represented in a personally held belief . .
Re :: Time Out !! Guilty of talking past each other much !???
Quick Reply to what the OP Posted on: October 5th in #3889 ( Nu # 3889 ), as what follows :
Happy Days ?
Romans --- As it is written: Because of You we are being put to death all day long; we are counted as sheep to be slaughtered!
2 Cor . --- That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong . . ( The apostle of the gentiles [Saint Paul] )
. . every moment to be upbeat, hopeful, strong, unafraid of death and confident about stepping into the next dimension.
F o n z i e . . Do not mistake this as sacrilege. And, By no means to detract nor trivialize from what a difference Jesus makes, nor the persuasive potentiality/potentially of a personal experience and/or testimony in the life of the believer. HOWEVER , You do know that is more than probably and likely not going to get past what has been repeated to you now on the order of literally dozens of times? Be real, I don't think you even begin to understand people on this site Fonz ? For a Hint . . It is the whole idea of what a difference 'belief' in general makes. Hint See Uploaded image . . .
Reference --- View YouTube Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buI7w6TEewk {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buI7w6TEewk}
p.s. -- Running and running today to make it in time at a far away location !! I am so very rushed I literally don't have time to complete my thought, so someone else pick it up from there . . Ok ? Potentiality that is represented in a personally held belief . .
No worries though, . . thought I'd remind Fonzie anyway though!
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Offline Having seen Dawkins on TV many times, and 'in the flesh' when he gave a talk in my city, I honestly think you display yet another example of how your beliefs strongly color your perceptions of reality. And WTF do you mean by 'rock-stocking'? Dawkins has little to do with rocks.
'Why we are here' is not so much a scientific question as a philosophical one, if asked in the sense of the asumption of a purpose for our lives. There is not necessarily any 'purpose' to our existence, apart from what we individually decide.
'Where we are going' can only be largely speculation, apart from giving us an idea of the possibilities and limitations of the future course of history. Not really a big scientific question of life at all.
As for 'is there a standard of right and wrong (and why?)', Science gives us some guidance - a social species such as Homo sapiens (and our primate cousins) requires a sense of 'right and wrong' to govern group behaviour to reduce the chance of serious group confict, so evolution easily explains the existence of some form of moral feelings. The details of what should be considered 'right' or 'wrong' are largely a matter of personal opinion, and can vary with the specific circumstances. There has been and will continue to be endless debate on this topic. Some even hold the naive and simplistic notion that we should be guided by what some ancient people in very different societies wrote in their 'sacred' texts.
Regarding "what should motivate you every moment to be upbeat, hopeful, strong, unafraid of death and confident about stepping into the next dimension", that is a matter of one's personal 'philosopphy of life' and beliefs, NOT a scientific question, although the science of psychology might help some.
The feeling I experienced, of 'freedom', was not necessarily something I was looking for in particular, but it was a feeling of being free from worrying about the faint possibility that there might still be be some truth to those old ideas. Yes, I would describe them as 'misconceptions'.
As for your position, by 'primed' I mean your upbringing and what you had already heard or read made you ready to 'take the next step. Pretty understandable.
My childhood/young adult experience seems to have been quite different - I never really took the ideas of 'God' or 'Jesus' any more seriously than I did 'Santa Claus', even when attending 'Sunday School', where I was definetly exposed to the standard Christian ideas. My mother seemed to be conventionally religious, at least for Australia, whereas my father was more atheistic, at least as best I can remember. As to what 'really' lead to my following such a different course than you, I can only speculate.
I did not go to those "dropouts", as you call them, for 'truth' in the sense you seem to be using the term, but to hear their personal accounts of losing faith, mainly to continue buiding my mental picture and understanding of how such beliefs fitted into the human mind and culture. Much as I am discussing with you to fill in my understanding of a very different viewpoint.
I don't see a very close analogy with smokers/people trying to quit. Not really 'scientific' thinking, just more ordinary logical/rational reasoning
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Having seen Dawkins on TV many times, and 'in the flesh' when he gave a talk in my city, I honestly think you display yet another example of how your beliefs strongly color your perceptions of reality. And WTF do you mean by 'rock-stocking'? Dawkins has little to do with rocks.
'Why we are here' is not so much a scientific question as a philosophical one, if asked in the sense of the asumption of a purpose for our lives. There is not necessarily any 'purpose' to our existence, apart from what we individually decide.
'Where we are going' can only be largely speculation, apart from giving us an idea of the possibilities and limitations of the future course of history. Not really a big scientific question of life at all.
As for 'is there a standard of right and wrong (and why?)', Science gives us some guidance - a social species such as Homo sapiens (and our primate cousins) requires a sense of 'right and wrong' to govern group behaviour to reduce the chance of serious group confict, so evolution easily explains the existence of some form of moral feelings. The details of what should be considered 'right' or 'wrong' are largely a matter of personal opinion, and can vary with the specific circumstances. There has been and will continue to be endless debate on this topic. Some even hold the naive and simplistic notion that we should be guided by what some ancient people in very different societies wrote in their 'sacred' texts.
Regarding "what should motivate you every moment to be upbeat, hopeful, strong, unafraid of death and confident about stepping into the next dimension", that is a matter of one's personal 'philosopphy of life' and beliefs, NOT a scientific question, although the science of psychology might help some.
The feeling I experienced, of 'freedom', was not necessarily something I was looking for in particular, but it was a feeling of being free from worrying about the faint possibility that there might still be be some truth to those old ideas. Yes, I would describe them as 'misconceptions'.
As for your position, by 'primed' I mean your upbringing and what you had already heard or read made you ready to 'take the next step. Pretty understandable.
My childhood/young adult experience seems to have been quite different - I never really took the ideas of 'God' or 'Jesus' any more seriously than I did 'Santa Claus', even when attending 'Sunday School', where I was definetly exposed to the standard Christian ideas. My mother seemed to be conventionally religious, at least for Australia, whereas my father was more atheistic, at least as best I can remember. As to what 'really' lead to my following such a different course than you, I can only speculate.
I did not go to those "dropouts", as you call them, for 'truth' in the sense you seem to be using the term, but to hear their personal accounts of losing faith, mainly to continue buiding my mental picture and understanding of how such beliefs fitted into the human mind and culture. Much as I am discussing with you to fill in my understanding of a very different viewpoint.
I don't see a very close analogy with smokers/people trying to quit. Not really 'scientific' thinking, just more ordinary logical/rational reasoning
Bob,
Well it's an opinion I admit but Mr. Dawkins really doesn't look happy to me - he looks deeply angry. But you could be right - I don't know how happy/unhappy he is and probably shouldn't speculate. I don't buy any of his message. BTW, I didn't mean anything by "rock stocking" - he looked like a rock collector at the first of the documentary. I've worked for some rock hounds and seen their collections and great interest in rocks.
For you to propose everybody "decide on their purpose for being here" displays another example of how your belief that you're your own god colors your view of your job assignment - to make up your own standard of right and wrong. It looks ridiculous and totally inefficient to me for you to suggest everybody do that when our Maker has laid it out.
The program of what happens after this life is not something I'm up on or would argue about. I can see glimpses of it - just like men through the ages could see glimpses of prophecy about Jesus - but it was a hidden mystery. I am trusting in the One Who will run the program however - of that I have no doubt. But to start saying what order things are going to happen or argue about things like that are foolish I think. I'm focused on what I'm doing now.
As for a standard of right and wrong - you echoed what they said in the Dawkins film about the chimps and apes. Momma looks after little ape boy or girl and apes help each other. It bores me.
What motivates me is the power of the gospel and the Presence of Jesus and God in the Light of The Spirit - in me.
The freedom I experience is freedom from debt of sin to God (and knowing that with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit), freedom from having to come up with a personal opinion on right and wrong and truth, etc - I just need to study, think, meditate and apply the Truth of the Scriptures. I'm also free from bondage to fear of death. I'm also free from worry and spiritual insecurity. I'm confident there are no accidents - nothing happens unless God allows it. And anything that happens to me could be potentially good.
My childhood was as empty headed and devious as probably any - probably more. My mom and dad were Christians - good responsible people.
You're an Austrailian? You look like an Australian (I don't mean that in a bad sense in any way BTW) - (my view on that is colored by seeing Crockadile Dundee a long time ago). Do you eat vegimite? A group of teens went to Australia and brought some of that back. I couldn't get the taste out for a week.
Well, I stand by what I said about your going to those who had somehow made shipwreck of their faith to learn about sailing.
And I appreciate your answering my questions. Your view of things is really different than mine. I have people that have views like yours that I get along with fine however, work for them, talk to them. One stopped by the job today - a former head of the Philosophy Department at the University. I've worked for 3 of the department heads of Philosophy and got along with all of them - though we totally disagreed about things like we're discussing here. I think they liked my work but not my doctrine.
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Offline I did not say we all totally make up our own standards of right and wrong - only the details, and then only if we disagree with the social consensus. I apologise for not making this clearer. The broad principles are determined by the socety developing a consensus via many cycles of interaction involving disputes being resolved in various ways and pointing to what seem to be the most practical principles to govern similar cases in future.
I consider the "purpose" of an activity can ONLY have meaning to the person or group initiating and controlling the activity.
The "purpose" of an object is what it was intended for by the person or group who constructed it, or perhaps selected it, in the case of a pre-existing object. IMHO, if some thing or some event is just part of the natural order of what exists, it is meaningless to consider it may have a pre-existing 'purpose'. Of course, as a believer in a Divine Creator of Everything, you will see things differently. I would then have to ask such things as 'what is is the purpose of the Ebola virus?', just to mention one of countless problems I see in this belief.
To change the subject, I occasinally eat Vegemite - I used to eat more, but it doesn't appeal to me so much now.
I would say that those I know who "lost their faith" mostly began to see more clearly problems, contradictions, and inconsistencies in the Doctrines they were taught and eventually decided that the mental gymnastics required to try and make it seem to hang together were just too ridiculous, and so just stepped back and saw it for the 'shipwreck' it actually was.
I too value this opportunity to discuss things without the conversation degenerating to a shouting match.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline I did not say we all totally make up our own standards of right and wrong - only the details, and then only if we disagree with the social consensus. I apologise for not making this clearer. The broad principles are determined by the socety developing a consensus via many cycles of interaction involving disputes being resolved in various ways and pointing to what seem to be the most practical principles to govern similar cases in future.
I consider the "purpose" of an activity can ONLY have meaning to the person or group initiating and controlling the activity.
The "purpose" of an object is what it was intended for by the person or group who constructed it, or perhaps selected it, in the case of a pre-existing object. IMHO, if some thing or some event is just part of the natural order of what exists, it is meaningless to consider it may have a pre-existing 'purpose'. Of course, as a believer in a Divine Creator of Everything, you will see things differently. I would then have to ask such things as 'what is is the purpose of the Ebola virus?', just to mention one of countless problems I see in this belief.
To change the subject, I occasinally eat Vegemite - I used to eat more, but it doesn't appeal to me so much now.
I would say that those I know who "lost their faith" mostly began to see more clearly problems, contradictions, and inconsistencies in the Doctrines they were taught and eventually decided that the mental gymnastics required to try and make it seem to hang together were just too ridiculous, and so just stepped back and saw it for the 'shipwreck' it actually was.
I too value this opportunity to discuss things without the conversation degenerating to a shouting match.
Bob,
This way you give of determining right and wrong is complicated and burdened with bureaucratic committee type paralysis it seems to me. You could never decide anything due to the lurking desires (bad or good - who knows?) of the society in general. But it's your thing not mine - it just looks cumbersome and unmanageable.
I don't get the "purpose of an activity can only have meaning..." statement. As far as the "purpose" of an object...I'm sure I do see it differently but I don't understand what you're talking about.
The "ebola virus"? I don't know what the purpose of it is - but here's my view of it: In the book of Job ::: Satan had no respect for God or Job and said Job was only God's mercenary, God's toadie - IOW, a "butt kisser". God, who knew and respected Job... allowed Satan to show himself a fool before the audience of Heaven and earth. God allowed Satan to test his theory. We are given the back stage information in this case - and Satan did things to Job - including something similar to ebola - and tried to make them look like God did them. ("lightning and fire came from God and destroyed....) So Bob, while nothing happens unless God allows it - there is a devil that dresses himself up in sheep's clothing and fools guys that don't accept the Knowledge of God. You are one of those. The "dark side of love" - is a thing you atheists have a problem with I know.
Though I'm sure you see it all differently the whole test of Job had a good end result. Job ended up with a new relationship with God and his friends. All his stuff was restored X 2 (he had the same number of kids again but his former kids were still alive - so they were doubled too). And the book of Job explains suffering from an empowering backstage view of faith in God and the need for endurance.
And changing the subject I don't see how anybody could eat Vegemite unless it was a part of your religion - and a false one at that. Can you explain why you EVER ate the stuff?
I view your approach to each day as a rudderless, uncharted, mystical trip to nowhere - not knowing where "here" is or "nowhere" is. You get up each day and make it up as you go along - and alone (or in a crowd of self-worshippers - "I", "me" "my" - where you each pay tribute to each other's ego).
My day starts with exploring more of the knowledge of God - which doesn't change - in the fellowship of the ONE Who Wrote IT and LIVED IT and dwells in me (which is quite a come-down on HIS part I'll admit).
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(?) What does that have to do with the price of Tea in China ? It's a small world after all (for some)!!
Jeano wrote once : ''And since they (those Atheists) cannot know, they cannot communicate. Thus either they cope with this life of silence, or they become violent and kill people''
Is this what you mean about the dark side of love ? > http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34034?page=1 Nu # 80 and/or http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34034?page=1#comment-404672
You've officially crossed over into projection And, This only confirms you still dont understand ANYONE on the board, you only seem to perpetually confirm it with this red herring; I wish someone would call you on this!! For the record, people are pretty able to set goals for themselves and derive meaning, with fulfilling (and meaningful lives), left to their own devises. Perhaps, You think this sort of distortion from someone with a learning disability, apparently, means, you win(?)
Rudderless by definition is a Nautical heading , indeterminate, correct ? Ref. to a vertical blade at the stern of a vessel that can be, by which to determine a heading,.. and/or any means of or device for governing, directing, or guiding a course. If you would like to stop lying about how interested in others you types are, and how about you admit to yourself and others what you're really trying to do here. Maybe, Only then you'd be taken modicumly more seriously, though by your approach, I VERY SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT EVER HAPPENING WITH YOU. Wake up!! But, As always thanks for sharing on the board Fonzie! Mainly though, Thanks for all the loving concern you've showed to Beyond at his father's painful passing or how about the loving concern you types had for Tony Jeffers with his harrowing terminal illness. I m sure the Lord is very impressed by you, I know I wouldn't be !!
Let's us ALL recall . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-IHw8wr_-M {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-IHw8wr_-M} Oh, And Oppositions any of us may face, that every of your situations. Know! Absolutely I cannot let a Theme go See Picture Uploaded -- 
p.s. -- Many people have regional foods only found in the Southern States in (lower North) America, though they're not from that region, nor even traveled there either. Many Americans have eaten rhubarb pie and had Red-eye gravy though they are not from the region, being examples of the cuisine of the Southern United States has traveled far. I can get authentic Korean cuisine, and I am not from either North or South Korea, now,.
An aside -- Now AE is from that part of the world, now he can appreciate how Indigenous Aboriginal words crept into the language.
Jeano wrote once : ''And since they (those Atheists) cannot know, they cannot communicate. Thus either they cope with this life of silence, or they become violent and kill people''
The words, a quote, by the Super-Troll Jeano,. Really ?!? Is this what you mean about the dark side of love ? http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34034?page=1 Nu # 80 and/or http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34034?page=1#comment-404672
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Offline The 'consensus' I refer to is not a formal thing, it arises naturally from the daily interactions of the population going about their business. Those with views that do not mesh with the majority encounter negative reactions, which tend to discourage others from adopting them. It is not a conscious process of decision-making; if disputes get to that level, it may eventually become a matter for judges and courts of law, which you may have heard about... Such processes eventually led to the abolition of slavery, despite the pass it got in the 'Word of God'.
Our basic impulses are guided by our natural empathy for our fellows, by which we gain some understanding of what they are feeling, on top of our inherent desire to not be killed or injured, from which we formulated the various versions of the 'Golden Rule', which way preceded Christian God beliefs. Our primate cousins have also been demonstrated to have empathy - it very much increases the workability of any social species.
The 'purpose of an activity' is what it is intended to accomplish, which is determined by those initiating it. What is hard to understand about that? Others who understand what is intended may also see its purpose as well.
Dictionary definition of 'purpose':
1 the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
To me, your attempt to 'explain' the Ebola virus is a complete failure - invoking Satan and the idea of 'testing' people, to try and justify why God created things which inflict a very unpleasant death on people, including children, is just bizarre. What 'good' does it generate to justify the evil?? For that matter, why did God create the Devil anyway? Do you think about such problems in your belief as part of your daily contemplation of God??
In my outlook and understanding of the world, the existence of such nasty organisms is an understandable, albeit unfortunate consequence of blind evolution.
Of course it is the very undirected, ultimately random nature of the mutation events which provide the raw material for the non-random process of natural selection to work on, which allows the occasional appearance of a novel solution to some limitation blocking some useful advance in the life processes, or the emergence of some new, slightly more 'advanced' species, including ultimately ourselves, ie, Homo Sapiens. Or sometimes just a change which defines a new species, adding to the diversity of life on Earth.
I certainly do NOT require such an entity to tell me what to do each day. We all have things we have to do on a regular basis to maintain our existence, such as obtaining food, working to earn money to pay for that food and do other things we have to do or just would like to do such as going on holidays, visiting friends and relatives, etc, etc. How is a God required for any of those countless things we do every day? We certainly are not just 'making it up as we go along'. I look back on my life and nowhere see where Belief would have usefully contributed to making major life decisions such as what career to pursue and how to acquire the necessary education and training.
My ultimate 'purpose' would be to leave the world at least a little more pleasant for its inhabitants, with a little less suffering, than it would otherwise be.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Once again, Fonzie, I want to thank you for continuing this discussion and describing your experiences as a devout believer. As I have tried to explain to you in turn, I value knowledge and understanding of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', to use a phrase from one of my heroes Douglas Adams, author of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy', who passed away in 2001.
You are helping me to refine my approach to such discussions with someone with a very different viewpoint from my own, with the aim of enhancing my understanding of the range of human ideas and perceptions of the world.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Misc. --
re :: Alternative Image choice ** Addendum **
Know! Absolutely I cannot let a Theme go See Picture Uploaded --
About image or images, those following a theme. Well, I had some others I could have gone with. And, I was more debating with myself if I should have shown these images (See/View Uploads) as an alternative image(s). But after deliberation and crewing on some edible flower tips, without the impromptu salad dressing; they ONLY ended up hitting the cutting room floor.
http://tinypic.com/r/2ewm9uw/8
Yes, There's a need for a quiet time for Fonz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOL7W3VbR-k {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOL7W3VbR-k}
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Offline In b4 the censor troll still doesn't get it. One would think that by now he'd realise that his quest of censorship is doomed to fail.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
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Right there, Fonzie. That last line. You put your finger on it. Generally, you keep confusing the human mental state we call 'belief' with a nebulous contextual concept manufactured in the pre-frontal cortex of rational beings we choose to label 'truth'. We think your god is a bald assertion that has never been defined by you, let alone proved to exist. Thus, we conclude "it's based only on your hopeless, wandering imagination". So easy to understand our position, wasn't it Fonzie?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
It's good that you agree with me that you don't know your god exists, but you clearly are experiencing cognitive dissonence still. You should work on that.
Science isn't an idol, it's a process which has been proven to work. It is so successful that humans have been using it, in whole or in part, for thousands of years before your god was invented. And it has never failed.
In fact, you are the one who worships idols.
No you don't. You admitted it by accident in your previous post, when you said you're looking forward to learning more about your false idol; jesus. Eventually, inevitably, you would learn everything about everything if you lived forever. It might take a few billion years, but you'd get there. And then what? That isn't even a fraction of forever. Boredom is inevitable, like it or not.
More proof you don't understand the concept of forever. Eventually you will have heard every song that can or does exist. Eventually there will be no new song to listen to. No new anything. Boredom is inevitable.
My power is infinitely greater than yours. If the posts on this forum survive, a thousand years from now the things I've said will be recognised as intelligent commentary on living in the late 20th and early 21st century. While your comments will be ridiculed as ancient and unintelligent con artistry which was abandoned as humans learned en masse that god is a lie.
In b4 the troll, who is still being ignored.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Unfortunately the thread appeared to have turned from an interesting discussion into a proselytization.
One could easily say the same thing from the atheist perspective, but since the Troll had been here so long
it didn't seem likely to accomplish anything...
Yet on they went, still feedng the Troll...
And it was still quite easy...
There are no theists on operating tables.
EXTREME,
You point out an extreme difference: your god is manufactured solely for and exists only in your pre-frontal cortex. My God is OUTSIDE my pre-frontal cortex yet lowly enough to come and dwell in me, The "I AM" Who "In the beginning Created the heavens and the earth", Spoke them into existence, created man as animated dirt, breathed the spirit of life into him, and continued - continues - to BE involved in every intricate detail of His Creation.
This very atheistic site proves the Truth of God's Revealed Word - illustrating the frustrated difference between Light and Darkness. "Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths but do not speak; eyes but do not see. They have ears but do not hear; noses but do not smell. They have hands but do not feel; feet but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."
The last line shows why you atheists don't have an eternal purpose in life or an understanding of where we came from or where we are going. You are hanging on to your own false pre-frontal paper-doll cortex god and can't pull the answers out of your God-given imagination. "I know O LORD that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." You have been led maybe to TRUTH but not INTO TRUTH because as yet you have rejected TRUTH (CHRIST).
Something will always be remote to you until you participate in it. You haven't. It's remote.
See that guys? That's all you need to know. Nothing more really needs to be said.
Checkmate, atheists. Lol.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Butter,
Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE - no one comes to THE FATHER except by ME." So, yes all TRUTH is in CHRIST. He is also the spiritual GPS - - THE WAY, THE LIVING MAP and GUIDE to God, eternity, ETERNAL LIFE. If you are "in Christ" you have eternal life. If you are not "in Christ" - you don't.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction." There's the reason for indifference.
I have ask the atheists at large here where they get their way, truth and life (to describe it) - but they haven't come up with more than a little jingle. The debate hasn't been a debate at all - because when it gets rubber - to - road the atheist has nothing on his side to offer. The atheist speciality turns out to be ridicule of faith in Jesus Christ, Scripture, the gospel, Truth, God - the I AM, The CREATOR.
You atheists don't have any answers of why or how we are here or where we are going, the definition of right and wrong, etc. It's not a debate of your "way" versus THE WAY because you can't present your "way" in a literate form.
"Lol" doesn't cut it Butter. Cute, though.
The door to debate is open - if you want to present the (atheist "way, truth and life"...) have at it ....... ( RENT THIS SPACE )
You theists make up gods and worship them as if it accomplished anything. When you die you'll rot in the ground like everyone else, and you'll never see the afterlife you waste your entire lives trying to get into. A few hundred years from now you'll be remembered by all humanity as a joke, while the atheists of our time are celebrated as pioneers of the one true way.
In b4 the troll, who is still being ignored. lolol
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
VAS,
You mean "the one true way" that you nor any other atheist has mentioned?
The "one true way" that you're satisfied with as being great - but doesn't exist?
The "one true way" that you keep referring to, boasting about - but can't describe?
The "one true way", the contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge?
I mean the one true way that most atheists and even most theists accept to some extent: science.
Your way is a lie, not truth.
I've described it hundreds of times. Apparently your IQ is too low to comprehend. Or, more likely, you never bothered reading it in the first place.
Only religion contradicts itself. Science is pure, and the only way to true knowledge.
In b4 the troll, who is still being ignored.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
The Troll-Feeder had aptly noted, "Unfortunately this appears to have turned from an interesting discussion into a proselytization. I could easily say the same thing from the atheist perspective, but since you've been here so long it doesn't seem likely to accomplish anything."
Yet following this insight, he strangely continued on, though it was still quite easy...
There are no theists on operating tables.
re :: "The Sweet Science" its' methodical and tough!!
.. THE PUREST SCIENCE, MORE THE 'SWEET SCIENCE' ..
Spam alert but view images, all the same, Seeing it's 'this thread' ::
Lyrics (1975-6) -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOH6SzDX3l4 {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOH6SzDX3l4}
Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you?
Where are you going to?
Do you know? When you look behind you there's no open door
What are you going to ?
Do you know where you're going to? Do you like the things that life is showing you? For Fonzie, it is not for the disobedient/mutinous *HashTag* With a similar credo to exactly the same maxim of Anselm of Canterbury, such a one as: Credo ut intelligam (alternatively spelled Credo ut intellegam) which is Latin for "I believe so that I may understand" .
Of course your faith "works for you". But that doesn't make it true, any more than for all the other religious belief systems which clearly 'work' for their believers.
Our minds can clearly be lead to believe all manner of things which have no objective basis, or can often be easily shown to be false. Just regularly watching "Mythbusters" responding to viewer comments shows how many ideas which seem intuitively obvious to the individual actually have no solid basis. And this is just for things in ordinary physical reality which can be observed with our normal senses and/or measured with physical instruments.
Science has been continually extending and refining the techniques that can best test the truth of claims, ie, how well they correspond to reality. These range from ancient beliefs such as that the Sun and the rest of the Universe go around the Earth to 'perpetual motion' devices and absurdities such as homeopathy.
To further counter your claim, we have testimony from quite a few people who were once strong believers, even preachers, and who have found it impossible to maintain that belef in the face of new knowledge and experience, which is pretty much the reverse progression to what you say has been your experience.
Basing such a claim purely on your personal feelings snd reaction to various testimonies is such a weak foundation, which is why Science requires as many sources as possible and things like 'peer review' so it is not based on the ideas and assumptions of just one person. Even the work of brilliant individuals such as Einstein has to be tested by many other people before it is accepted.
So yes, I do think you are fooling yourself, but I have no problem accepting that you ARE really happy and feel enlightened, etc . My purpose is pursuit of TRUTH and understanding of reality, and helping others in that endeavour, who often thank us for that.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
(BOB SPENCE FROM PAGE 3 ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO)
Bob,
I take it science has tantalized your test tubes for quite a long time. Yes I'm confident you're wrong but believe you think you're happy and fulfilled thinking life is one big science project. Probably when you were dating (?) you shared the fact that I = E/R with your girlfriend or something similar. There IS a large array to choose from - like sound travels about 4 times faster in water than air. Say, if one of your friends is in trouble or dying - you might mention to him that watts = volts X amps, or, it's acid into water rather than water into acid.
I worked for an old retired physics chairman and he told me how exciting physics class used to be compared to now - maybe it goes back to your era. He said for instance he would have the janitor hang a bowling ball from the ceiling (high ceilings in those days). He would get back high in the corner and hold the bowling ball up to his nose (he said you'd be a fool to push). He'd turn loose and the ball would sweep across the room and he would stay there (confident like you of science) while the ball would come "ever so close" to his nose - all would 'GASP' at the scientific fact thus proven. I'm sure they all went out to apply that to every part of their college life since an all-reaching scientific fact had thus been proven. One might have possibly called his brother in the war or his parents separated and brought the light of this to their experience and situation. No matter what, science had come through.
I remember when I was in physics class one day the prof showed us the fastest way to empty a bottle by getting the liquid spinning in the bottle creating a vortex with a vent in the center. I'm sure that was a scientific fact many applied. Yes, you have a point, science applies.
The fact that I believe in the God Who Created the world and sent His Son to save the world and cleanses His Own with the washing of the Word of God doesn't keep me from enjoying science class or studying science. In fact, one time when I first started out as a carpenter almost 50 years ago we were trying to prove to a couple of old carpenters that an empty pop can would fall from the roof just as fast as one full of rocks. They didn't believe it - they said we released one a little ahead of the other or argued about which hit first. Think of what a difference that could have made in these old carpenters' lives if they had accepted that scientific truth.
I remember in high school I tried to disprove a scientific fact - that there wasn't approximately 8 gallons in a cubic foot. I built the cubic foot and when I poured the first gallon in I knew i was in trouble.
Hmmm, interesting attempt at satire. It's a strawman though so it doesn't work.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
In before the Troll-feeder(s)...
There are no theists on operating tables.
**double post**