Fonzie, others here have the patience for slow sentance by sentance deconstruction of your arguments. I am not one of them

The fact is that you like what you believe. The fact is your are basing that on your own desires and it has nothing to do with anything provable. The bible is an old book of myth. It is not a history book or science textbook. 

You, like every believer of every god claimed in human history are merely projecting your own desire of imortality into the form of a god claim. You are using kaliedoscope logic to justify your position. It is no different when Muslims or Jews or Hindus logic when they defend those other gods. Humans make up gods and you are no different.

You might as well be defending Harry Potter or Star Wars and make religions out of those and argue from those works of fiction.

Prozac,

This example of "it" you've laid out is as oblique and unacceptable as it gets - like not collecting stamps for a hobby, not even a Cliff's Notes version yet you bill it as the pie'ce de r'esistance of atheist doctrine.  Please prefer the harsh reality that in truth it's nothing but a stale fortune cookie wish.   It only shrugs off problems as if the solution is unavailable - or only solved by keeping the eyes shut, the lie of atheism alive, ignoring the miracle of life and letting a smirk be your umbrella.

It's been a reoccuring formulaically predictable phenomenon for atheists to refer back to a time long long ago in a place far far away...where, "yeah we answered all that, we laid it all out".  But when you look for "it" "it" "it's" not there...or, again doesn't exist, even if done with hubris even a fool like me can see that.  It's like the dog ate the homework then ate his vomit or was it the pig not staying clean, anyway...     

BTW I don't see Christianity as an emotional thing at all.  Please don't come on here saying I haven't made it clear that feelings are like weather - not to be relied on good or bad.  I can see some happenings that would understandably leave that false impression - but not for long with the guy who prefers harsh reality to comforting lies.  

There is no problem with the Scripture BTW. You're an example of someone on this forum that gave up on Christ then made it out to be Christ's problem not yours.  Use your formula and see what I what harsh reality I think about that.  (/ zero)   

PS I am happy, happy, happy BTW

The same case used to justify religion, ie "it makes people happy" could also be made for pumping anti-depressant drugs into the water supply. Actually that would probably do less long-term harm.

Anyone who cites "the bible" or religion as a definitive authority on...well, anything at all really, is effectively claiming that the pinnacle of human developement & acheivement, was during the Bronze Age. Which to any reasonably inteligent person, is frankly preposterous.

What's not to understand? Men magically popping out of dirt. Women magically popping out of a man's rib. Talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking bushes. The sun and moon being treated as separate sources of light. Babies being born without a second set of DNA.  Zombie gods surviving rigor mortis.

We understand. We understand that that book took over a 1,000 years to write, by mere mortals and wasn't even canonized until after the fact. None of the gospels were written during the alleged time claimed in the bible itself, but after the fact. We understand the writers did not have modern scientific tools. We understand that power and divinity were falsely associated by even polytheism. We understand that the Character names of the OT were taken by the splinter Yawheists who became Hebrews from Cananite Polytheism. 

We do understand, and that is why we are atheists.

You still don't get it, Fonzie. There is no "atheist doctrine" - we simply don't accept any 'doctrine' that is based on belief in a 'God' of any kind. In that sense it really is like a hobby that is defined as 'not collecting stamps'. That's the point.

If and when we want to know something the world, about reality, what we should base our lives on, and so on, we generally prefer to look for ideas based on some decent level of credible evidence, but once we get away from the non-acceptance of God, we are no longer discussing 'Atheism', but various individual's personal philosophies of life, which can vary over a very wide range. If an individual 'atheist' holds to some system of thought that could be described as a 'doctrine', that is up to them. As long as they don't believe in a God, they still 'qualify' as atheist.

So if your conviction that the Bible is all true is not based on emotions, feelings, what is it based on? Do you actually have objective, independently verifiable evidence? Or are you just accepting the authority of some source, such as the Bible?

 Fonzie

It is obvious that you believe in jesus and the bible.  I am not sure how anyone who considers themselves intellectual could read the bible and find happiness and joy from it?  It is by far the most sadistic evil book known to man in my opinion.  All I need to do is speak of Noah and the flood.  Fonzie please tell me how you can justify mass murder on a global scale?  In what world is that even considered to be ok?  You believe it true, and you accept as if it was justifiable.  How can you follow a god, that knew he was going to murder all these people before he ever set the universe and man into action.  This is an old example, but its like the painter blaming the painting for not looking the way he wanted it to look, so he destroys the painting.  This mythical deity knew in his foresight that man would ultimately get it wrong in his eyes, even though he created them to be sinners.  Then despite this creation, this knowledge, he still decided to create man, allow man to flourish, and then murdered everyone on the planet other 7 people, whom he thought were righteous, yet still Knew they would betray him? Doesn't make much sense to me.  So just knowing that story alone, I would never follow a god that would cause such horrific suffering and carnage, all the while pasing buck and blaming his creations for the very sinning nature he created within them.  Man I could go on and on about some of the shit in the bible that just sickens me.  I think the best though is that god decided the world and humanity needed saving from their sinful ways, which again he gave them.  So what does he do, he sends a savior, himself, to purge all the sinners from their sinful ways.  So this time, when their are actually people on their earth, instead of poofing jesus into existence like Adam and Eve, he chose the virgin birth scenerio.  Why not just poof jesus into existence, I mean he could do that right.  

Anyway Fonzie, I would much rather see you spend your time enjoying this world as it is, through nature and science.  It truly is a wonderous place that we only get a short time to enjoy.  So enjoy it, instead of wasting your time believing in fairy tales.  Just my two cents.

Joe

PS I am the worst typist and have really bad hands, so please excuse typo's.  

Joe,

I made a coffee table when I was in high school that won first and had been quite a struggle coming down to the end - somebody dropped a clamp on it the last week and I had to steam it and redo the finish.  The tape from the ribbon pulled part of the finish off.  

Later when I had children the table was stored at my parents' house.  By then I understood the razor sharp corners would be lethal so I tore it up knowing I could always make another one and make it right.  I think I had the right to make that decision.  

I think when God has Created these people and Knows He can Create more it looks a little different to Him than us.  Anyway, everything God does is Right and Righteous.  

The thing you mention like Noah (who preached to the people for over 100 years with no success) - which could be maybe called "the dark side of love" I know is a hard thing for a person to understand or accept with a casual view of the Bible and without entering through the Door - Christ, which you haven't.  And I also have wondered why God didn't maybe send Jesus on the scene 45 minutes after Adam and Eve sinned.  You could conclude God isn't an American.  But God Dwells in the Heavens and does What He Pleases.  And What He Does Pleases me.  

A lot of thing are hard to accept in life Joe - even other then God.  No one is shielded from these things that happen.  Because I have total confidence in God I can approach any problem or tragedy hard to accept knowing it can have a good result, IOW totally confident God knows what He's doing, knowing I have the Promise I won't be sent more than I can bear.  And I am enjoying life more than I could ever have imagined.  I'm getting somewhere.  The Instructions I'm following are all going the same direction - and not changing.  It all works.   

This thing you mentioned that Jesus came became a man - 100% man and 100% God, born of the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin -  and died for our sins, became sin for us, took our sins upon Himself then Rose from the grave and Lives with us - if you accepted that gospel in faith then you would understand Justice and Mercy.  Sin has a price - death.  Justice had to be served.  God took it upon Himself and if we believe in Jesus it is reckoned as Righteousness.  If we accept God's Gift He gives us the Wedding Garment.  

God takes sin so seriously that He let His Only Begotten Son be tortured and crucified after living a perfect life becoming the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world - because He So Loved the world.  This is mercy offered.  There is no other way to be saved than through Jesus - believing in Jesus.  If there was another way Jesus wouldn't have had to die.  And if you try to use another way you're saying you don't need what Jesus did which in the end will be seen to be the only way.  With God's Way of Salvation All the Glory is His.  When we try to help out we only mess it all up for ourselves and for others watching from the outside in.    

I don't consider myself intellectual Joe or even think that is a realistic position to stake out -  but I do believe all the Bible just like the fishermen that spread it and I study it every day.  When I apply it - it proves itself.  It's the best companion ever - faithful.  It's more precious than gold or all you could desire.  When I'm going through my day the Word of God talks to me.  I think viewing yourself as intellectual would be a barrier to discovering the Treasure.  Pride and arrogance are great snares for people.  

I'm sure I can't solve the question for you but if you really have desire to find out for yourself you can read it, take it in, think about it, maybe seeds of faith would grow.  If not, at least you would have experienced and rejected (if) the Word of God for yourself rather than the way it came through somebody else.

There are several examples in the Bible Joe that show God appreciates honest questions like yours.  Jonah honestly questioned God, so did Job.  If you're really looking for the answers you can find them.  If you're looking for something else - you'll probably find that. 

Here's a Proverb for you:  "He who diligently seeks good seeks favor, but evil comes to him who searches for it."  Is the problem intellect?  Obviously not.  The problem is the heart.

 Yes, the fact that belief in Jesus has had an observed effect on your life certainly proves that that that personal belief is real, of course.

But, you need much more than that to prove that the belief is true, ie, that the being believed in really exists, not just as an idea in your mind. IOW, the effect has to be something that cannot possibly be caused by your actions alone, and would be impossible without the intervention of a being with powers you claim he possesses.

The classic claim is typically 'magically' curing some illness or disability, and the now standard response is a to ask if you can give an example of God or Jesus causing someone to completely re-grow a lost limb. Which would be observable by other people and hard to dispute.

My point was that the reality of supernatural claims can be investigated in the physical 'realm', ie scientifically. And these days, that includes things of the mind as well.

I'm sorry, Fonzie, 'a lame man cured' is NOT he sort of thing I was referring to. I was talking about a lost limb growing back. Being lame just means you have lost the use of one or both legs, so you cannot walk.

Narratives from the Bible have no value as proof of anything, since there is so much dispute about who wrote them and when, and about the exact meaning and interpretation. There are also many more writings about events of that time than are included in the Bible, since what was selected for inclusion was based on how well it could be read as being consistent with accepted beliefs. IOW anything that seemed to contradict what was currently believed was simply ignored.

Your dismissal of the reality of modern scientific understanding of the processes of life - NOTE: not just my personal understanding -  is simply another demonstration that you are simply wilfully uninformed about the FACTS that much progress that has been made in understanding these things, by people whose work is dedicated to making progress in these areas of Science. This progress has lead to improved ability, in some cases greatly improved, for us to relieve or even cure many nasty diseases and disabilities. Your ignorance of these things is caused by your beliefs preventing you from accepting these FACTS, as I said. I did not say being an atheist 'makes you smarter'.

There is little useful or meaningful 'knowledge' to be gained from the Bible - it is at least a thousand years out of date. They didn't even realize that a human child is not purely originated from the male 'seed', but in fact gets slightly more of its nature from the mother. Which contributed to all the nonsense and obsession about 'virgins' and virgin birth, among of other things.

Fonzie, it is you who have no valid soutce of knowledge.

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.  

Brian,

There is no argument with you about my position of faith in God beyond the virgin birth, Perfect Life, Substitutionary Death and Resurrection of Jesus to an Indestructable Life and Inspiration of the God Breathed Word of God - concerning all of which I have no doubt.  You reject it all - I believe it all - it's that simple, no argument. 

But I do have a position which I've laid out (I've seen what you refer to as yours).  And I am happy - not based on emotion (I know you happily reject that fact as well).  And my position is ready to consider all things - including those who reject what I know is true, have given up what I know is true - and hold to the contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge throwing firebrands, arrows and death.  Wisdom is justified by all her children.   

"Faith" is a cop out excuse to cling to your virus of warm fuzzy claptrap. There is no god Fonzie, there is just you wanting to believe it so bad you will.

It is an unfortunate flaw in our species evolution that causes not just you, but most in our species history to go with their desires and feelings not giving a damn about the reality that it is merely in their head. It is gap filling and a lack of your understanding of how easily our brains can buy fictional sky hero claims. You like what you believe and you have no clue as to how evolution causes you to needlessly gap fill because of your own flawed perceptions. 

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

Pretty much everything.

If it requires faith, it is certainly not 'knowledge', and can't be used to really justify anything.

Of course, if I really have to make a decision in the absence of solid knowledge of some important relevant information, it would have to be based on what incomplete information I do have - beyond that, it can only be guesswork, or assumptions based on experience of similar situations I have encountered in the past.

All the existing knowledge that I trust to a sufficient degree to count as 'knowledge' involves some level of uncertainty. The strict technical way to allow for this involves using 'Bayes Theorem', which allows one to calculate the probability that some statement is true given the probablity that another statement that it depends upon is true. It is a mathematical way to account for all the uncertainties in the statements that a particular knowledge claim is based on. In practice, I wouldn't be doing this calculation all the time, but at a more informal, intuitive level, I just try to take account of my current confidence in each source.

'Faith' just doesn't come into it - it provides nothing, it is empty. If you are happy to apply the word to having a reasonable but finite level of trust in some particular person or written documentation, then I guess that's up to you.

The closest you might be able to say I am using 'faith' is if I base it on information provided by some other person, in which case it would require a degree of trust that their information is sound. 'Trust' is a better term to apply then. "Faith" is a bit too open-ended for me - 'trust' implies some reason for why I may be prepared to accept their assurances, probably based on previous experience with them.

Gravity. You don't have to have "faith" in gravity, we know it exists and right now as you read this you can test gravity. Take a coin or pen and drop it, it will fall to the ground. 

Knowledge isn't a matter of making claims like religion or "faith". Knoweldge is what comes from observation and is why we have doctors, why we have been to the moon, and why you are typing on this computer right now. None of those things came about because of "faith". Those things came about because someone thought to simply not accept they did not know and sought to observe and test and collect data.

Brian,

You mean they couldn't accept not knowing but had faith (or hope, another non-fact) they could discover something as yet undiscovered so they ventured into the unknown?

Yes, I observe gravity too (that might be a stretch of trust for you that a guy who believes in God shares your gravity).  I don't think about it or talk about it much unless I'm carrying a bucket of drywall mud - "why does gravity want this so bad?"

Gravity just doesn't seem to be on the cutting edge of conversation or everyday life for me or anybody else these days.  Maybr I'm too easily bored but your fact of gravity just doesn't hold my interest (I might have to listen to some Abba or Bob Dylan for balance).  

Do you think it's a phenomonen completely understood or just accepted and used; I mean, do you have faith your atheist scientists totally understand it?    

The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Of course you are bored with the strange idea you persist with, that I have a 'god'. How am I supposed to show you anything exciting, interesting, or productive about something thet doesn't exist even as an idea, at least in my mind.

The interesting and productive ideas that I like to studiy come from first purging any residual trace of the ancient mind-rotting poison that is contained in the Bible and openin my mind to the vast possibilities of Truth and Reality. But since you are totally stuck in the God Delusion, unable to admit even the possibility that the Bible may not be 100% true, that path is closed to you. So I can never show you the wonder of my totally god-free world. Sorry about that.

I do understand that just kicking God out of your life is not going to be enough to open your mind to the wonder of Scientific Truth - you need a minimum amount of fairly advanced education and a mind able and willing to grasp it. It would seem that some form of religious belief is the most common fallback position for those not able to follow the more difficult path to Truth. which seems to be most people, at least in the USA. At least it makes you happy...

By the way, I have never, and never would, go hunting alligators or rabbits, even in some metaphorical sense, or whatever sense you had in mind.

Bob,

Maybe I have false impressions of Australians like you with Christianity, Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, walking by faith, life in The Spirit rather than the flesh, the Word of GOD being God Breathed, the Presence of God, the parables of Jesus ramping into spiritual thinking, the reality of miracles, the truth of Old Testament stories like Jonah and the big fish, Noah and the ark, etc., etc.   I'm not hunting alligators or rabbits in your false metephorical impression sense in my faith in God  either or whatever sense you have in mind in your spiritual strawman creation and rejection of GOD and the Eternal Gift of God in Christ --- RAISED TO AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.

So, if I was to enter the door to nowhere, the atheist "green door" of unbelief, the hobby of not collecting stamps - you could show me the mystery of what's behind the green door....?  The deep things of Satan?  That's fried balogna and you can have it!  You're starting my day with a laugh.

Our Champion, Christ has handled that "greeen door" like Samson handled the gates of Gaza, posts bar and all carrying them to the top of the hill that is before Hebron.  I'm not in the least concerned or curious about what's behind your green door of unbelief.  

You know the serpent tempted Eve with the same idea - that to disobey God would make her "wiser" and all that happy horse manure.  You haven't brought out anything sublime from behind your door of unbelief - very simply because you don't have anything (but you're happy with it nonetheless).  

The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Bob,

I took a video tour yesterday of south west Australia.  Very scenic and looks nice.  A nice piece of creation there.  I wouldn't want to go there though - too far.  I believe the video.

I'm glad you and your scientists see the light at least (and we'll give all the glory for that to your research, reason and telescopes).

As far as "knowing" - the sheep know their Master's Voice.  You know your bilion year old  light.  It speaks volumes to you, brings meaning and depth into your life.

I know my Master's Voice.  It's the whole Bible - Genesis to Revelation