Ok, so I like to play out these conversations, basically debate with myself..... maybe a little wierd.lol

So anyway, I was thinking.... Ok, so God is an all knowing being. That's what I'm told. So if I sat down with God and asked him "Where will I be working in 10 years, 3 months, 22 days, and 2 minutes exactly?" he would be able to give me an absolute answer, right? [hopefully not Taco-Bello or something like that]  But at the same time, I'm told people have been given, by God, Free Will. How can this be? If God already knows what's going to happen, then how do I have free will? Either way, I'm gonna end up in THAT place, according to God. 

We've all heard this one to death, we all know the answer to the question, the hard part is explaining it in an intuitive way to help a simpler mind understand. I think I might've found a good analogy.

Theist: Who decides what is moral and what isn't?

Atheist: What's your favourite sport?

Theist: It's <insert sport> Why?

Atheist: Who decides the rules of <sport>?

Theist: It's <sport organisation>

Atheist: If <organisation> said that from now on <silly rule - e.g. pitches are now 80 miles long> is a new rule would that be the rules of the game from now on?

Theist: No. That would be silly.

Atheist: Then <organisation> don't decide the rules. They can only introduce rules that are considered sensible. How do you decide whether a rule is sensible? Why is <silly rule> a silly rule?

Theist: It would ruin the game. The rules are there to make the game play well.

Atheist: So rather than some person decide what the rules of the game are, they are determined by the nature of the game and how well the game plays with them.

Theist: Yes.

Atheist: Morality is like that. It isn't a person who decides what is moral and what is immoral. We live in society and we work out the rules we must abide to in order to make society nice to live in. This is how we decide what is moral and what is immoral. Do you use <organisation> rules when you are playing with your kids?

Theist: No. Playing with official rules doesn't work for fun games like that.

Atheist: In otherwords, you understand the spirit of the game so understand which rules will make a good game and which rules will make a bad game. You use your experience and common sense. The Bible says <insert Bible quote where God orders his follows to commit mass slaughter/eat babies>. Do you consider this to be moral? If not, why not?

Theist: God clearly didn't mean that to be taken literally.

Atheist: How do you know he didn't. It's what he said. You say that the Bible decides you morality and here the Bible tells you that <mass slaughter/eating babies> is morally correct. How do you know that it wasn't meant to be understood in this way?

Theist: Use some common sense! <mass slaughter/eating babies> is obviously wrong so God wouldn't order it.

Atheist: So you have to use some common sense?

Theist: Yes.

Atheist: This common sense is the root of your morality. It decides how you interpret the Bible. The Bible merely inspires your moral thinking with anecdotes and stories. Your true grasp of morality comes from you understanding the spirit of society and understanding the behaviour that will make it work.



It's a first draft/first take but what do you think?
Is the sports (or any game of your choice) analogy good for helping them understand the nature of morality?
The last bit stole the theme of Chris' "Christians must steal from secular morality" to show them that their morality is also secular. Thoughts?   

Hell is permanent.  Damnation to hell is eternal and irrevocable.  Hell is torture.

Hell is the consequence of not believing in Jesus.

Heaven is the reward for believing in Jesus. 

God created the universe.  God created earth.  God created man.  God created Satan.  God created hell.

God created morals. 

God created man with the choice to be moral or immoral.

Some people believe in Jesus.

Some people do not believe in Jesus.

Some people who believe in Jesus are moral. *

Some people who do not believe in Jesus are moral.

Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *

The last time I asked this question, the thread got hijacked and everyone forgot the original question.

So, let's address it again.  Is God Omnipresent?  If he is, then what is hell?  I was taught (in a protestant upbringing) that hell is the absence of God's presence, and that damnation to hell was God removing his presence from a sinner for eternity.

So, which is it?  Is God omnipresent or not?  One of these options must be true:

1) God is omnipresent, and he is in hell.

2) God is not omnipresent, and so is not in hell.

Theists, make your choice!

Rhad,

I know you don't have plans for staying on this forum too long so I'd like to ask you a question before you depart. I have been following your post now for sometime and I must admit they have fascinated me. I've grown curious about your reasons for being a Christian and I do not recall you mentioning those reasons in any post I've thus read. Could you possibly share with some of us why you believe in Christian theology? I would appreciate your perspective.

From George H. Smith's "Atheism: The Case Against God"

Smith first cites Leslie D. Weatherhead in order to express the theistic argument:

'How can man, an insect on a wayside planet, which is itself of no size or importance, amid a million galaxies that baffle the imagination, put the tiny tape of words around the doings of this august and unimaginable Being who created all that is in the heavens and the heaven of heavens?'

---

My commentary: This is the topic at hand. When theists claim that God is unknowable, incomprehensible, or mysterious, what implications for their theistic position does this have? [ie "God works in mysterious ways."] Is it damaging, helpful, or indifferent for them to use this argument?

Hey all, decided to post something thats been on my mind. not sure if this is where it belongs im sure someone might move it if this post isn't suppose to be here.

(I would like both christians and atheist to post what ever on here)

as one who is a believer in a God namely Christ - I have my doubts about whether or not I am doing something right or wrong. if I do one thing it seems as if I cause one group to be angered but if I do another the other group gets upset. honestly right now im dealing with part of the church calling me a idolizer rather than helping me out who supposely is "idolizing" they call me out and then they then leave me expecting me to find food on my own.

Often theists try to prove there is a god by stating that the universe needs a creative force. Whatever the strengh of this argument may be, There is no reason why such a creative force should have any qualities we attribute to god.

In particular the idea of an omniscient god is quite laugthable. Attributing infinite knowledge to god is attributing a antropomorphic quality. Knowledge is only the attribute of some very scarce and complex life forms, humans in particular. Attributing it to god makes sense in a very narrow minded self centered stone age.

Nowadays, we know how humans are a just a ridiculously small part of all that lived.

Unban St. Michael, if you haven't already. While you may disagree with everything he says, he does respond to everything in-depth, and does follow a logical path. If you truely want to debate and eventually defeat theists, why ban the one who has written the most? Don't be a prick.

Oh, and if you have unbanned him, ignore this. In fact, feel free to make fun of me.

I offer my apparently upcoming ban from this site as evidence that those who claim to be proponents of reason have decided to merely dismiss my claims as "lies" and to remove me from their midst. This is what I have been told by todangst. So, please feel free to discuss whether this is appropriate for those who claim to value discussion, debate, and reason.

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,
StMichael

PS - I am not sure whether this post is appropriate in this forum. If it is not, I apologize and merely ask that someone move it to the proper location.