It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Offline Fonzie wrote:You don't have to tell a lie on this forum to be accused of it - which is the case.I'm afraid it's not. It was the simplest test of your honesty devisable, and you failed it. Even after all this time, I still find it surprising that you even bothered to lie.
Fonzie wrote:All you have to do is come on here believing in Christ.No, all you have to do to be accused of lying here is to lie and stick with it, even after you get caught.
Which you did.
Fonzie wrote:It's simply Anonymouse's way of trying to annoy - which it isn't doing.Well, if it was "my way", then it's strange that only you seem to have this problem with me.
Fonzie wrote:It's like the old suggestive question of "when are you going to stop beating your wife"? "now or later?"Nope, it is not in any way like that, for the simple reason that you have repeatedly provided proof of your lies. You really have a tendency for comparing things that are in no way similar. Kindly wean yourself off this bad habit.
For example, as I have been forced to repeat ad nauseam, you lied about your earlier threads. I asked you if you were the same person as the guy who started the "WHAT FAITH YOU" thread, and you denied it.
Then you proceeded to provide proof of your dishonesty by simply repeating your personal information from that thread, down to the most minute details.
This made your lie even more absurd. To this day, I simply don't understand why you even bothered to lie so blatenly and shamelessly. I mean, what could you possibly have to gain ?
And then you went and made it worse, but forcing people to repeat answers they already gave, many, many times before, simply by claiming the answers were never given.
You once even triumphantly announced the atheist's failure to answer your question, in a reply that quoted that very answer !
Lies just don't get more absurd than that.
Fonzie wrote:Then you just twang "now or later" like flailing a 5 string banjo or sprinkling all your sentences with the "F" word - you just keep twanging on and on and people will know you're clever because you really don't want an answer you just want to twang.You mean you want to answer ? Okay, answer me then : Why did you lie ?
(Btw, since the proof for your lies is your own words, which can be read from the screen in front of your face, you might want to skip the post where you deny having lied at all)
Fonzie wrote:So how would you answer the question - "now" or "later"? See if you try to explain that you don't beat your husband or wife, or cheat on your husband or wife, well, you just haven't answered the question - because you haven't said: "now"? or "later"? Hope that helps.No, you can't explain away a lie with yet more dishonesty.
The only thing that will help here is if you answer the question honestly, and you haven't done that yet.
So here we go, once again with feeling, why did you lie ?
And for all you guys out there who think this is useless, who want to say how boring this thread is, well, DUH ! I'm aware of that. But know this : This guy's been here 3 years (I kid you not), and people here have bent over backwards for him. They took his insults and his condescension without complaining. They answered his questions no matter how many times he repeated and rephrazed them. They let him get away with his lies for the sake of argument.
And what did they get in return ? Read the thread and find out.
Me repeating this question over and over again is simply force-feeding him his own medicine.
The point is , there is nothing else to do in this thread ! There's not a question left that hasn't been answered yet, and he doesn't care !
So please, stop trying. I only post here so nobody else has to. (And if he didn't start bumping it when we ignore him, even I would have been outta here long ago)
You're welcome.
Anonymouse,
I think sadly your mind is a stranger to peace. How can you have peace when you are like a tumbleweed in a whirlwind - with no anchor, no base. How can you act with no certainty? Your message is "doubt and be saved". You act like the planting and growing of doubts is necessary to your salvation.
Surely Christ came with a teaching that is not shapeless. I must be sure of something or I don't have a motive to act. Surely happiness is more a thing inside a man than the things around him. It's the same with hell - it's more inside than an outside fire.
As I look at the world I am at peace because Christ has come with a message I can know and be sure of. I have peace concerning the outer war because God has given me the tools - shield and sword - to deal with it in Christ. I have peace within because of my soul's beliefs, thoughts, and expectations in Christ - His gift. On this Thanksgiving Day I am thankful to God and Christ for it. I am rejoicing in God and in Christ with it. It's living and active and real.
And in peace I offer it to you.
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Not suggesting anything. Just asking a question.
Oh, and those aren't my forefathers, btw.
Ah, ok. Well to return to your question, if the answer is yes, I'm wondering how man could come up with 5-10 since he has no morality upon which to base his judgment. Are you not born in the USA?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
If i subscribed to the moral laws of the Bible, guilt is the last thing I'd feel. There are too may precedents of God violating said code. If he can't play by his rules, why should I?
Also, you have that forgiveness thing, ask for forgiveness and promise to try real hard not to do it again (until you want to do it again).
Lather, rinse, repeat.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You have doubts ?
Man can be quite wonderful, that's true enough. Why can't they arrive at 5-10 by simple common sense ? Breaking any of those can cause all sorts of trouble. People must have started noticing that at some point.
No.
No, Fonzie. I'm asking why you as a God believer feel it is OK to sin without feeling guilty.
That is what forgiveness from God gets you. In fact, if you read earlier than the passage you quoted, Paul got rid of the whole concept of sin for the believer - "For where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin)". Why would Paul contradict himself like that?
No matter what definition of sin you use, you have problems.
If you go with "paranomia" (lawlessness) Romans 4:15 cancels it out. If you use "hammartia" (missing the mark) then you are faced with needing forgiveness everyday because hitting God's mark is impossible. Either way, a sin concept is pointless.
I find it unnerving that you brag about being able to do harm to your fellow man because you can tell your God how sorry you are and that you won't do it again (until the next time you want to). You don't even have to repent anymore - just believe that you were heard and that you are forgiven.
Do I profess to know what faith in Jesus is? No. Do I see what's wrong with what you think it is? Yep. See, you use it to keep from examining things and ideas that frighten you. You believe that it faith is there to protect you from your (allegedly God-given) reason.
I'm glad to see you admit that fear and jealousy brought you to this site. You saw people who stood up and said that they didn't fear your bogeyman and were living decent well-adjusted lives. That scares you because your training keeps you from seeing how such things are possible. It also brings up your envy of us because you'd like to be free but you don't have the courage to tell your invisible captor you want out. Perhaps you've been kept for so long you've got a form of Stockholm syndrome where you love your jailer so much that you've gone into the cell, slammed the door behind you and swallowed the key.
I know what you said about conscience. I still say that the scars and sores on my conscience help me remember what I did so I don't do it again. You can call what happened to your conscience healing if you want. I call it searing your conscience so you don't feel or remember what you do again.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Oh, I would come up with many laws, but it wouldn't include six of the ten commandments because there aren't that many of the ten commandments that don't suck.
One through four is just expressing how narcissistic and insecure God is.
Five is too vague and sweeping.
Six is generally good.
Seven is stupid.
Eight is generally good.
Nine is generally good.
Ten is prosecuting thought crime.
So, out of the ten commandments, there are three of them that I like. I could have come up all three of them in less than a minute. In fact, I dare say that anyone with an IQ above mentally retarded could probably come up with those three in less than a minute since they are in our instincts.
Because we don't base our moral judgments on any source, period. That is the entire point. They are our instincts and preferences. I don't have to reference any authority to know that I like ice cream. I know I like ice cream because I've tasted it, and I like the taste.
I can easily come up with all three of those rules because those are my preferences.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
You can't possibly be serious in suggesting that human morality is divine in origin. Homo sapiens is far older than all religions and there are unmistakable signs of nurturing in skeletons that are 30,000 years old and more. Needless to say, people raised without faith scarcely go about murdering, commiting adultery and stealing. Coveting your neighbours' kit being a great sin is debatable. Coveting forms the core of all advertising because it fuels aspiration. If we did not desire to achieve and attain and own we'd all stay in bed eating cheezels and watching TV. There's also a time in life when you become largely content with what you have. You hardly go around actively drooling over your neighbour's spanking new Hyundai with twin chrome ashtrays and double overhead foxtails. And you don't wrestle with this transition. It just happens to do you as you mature.
It's interesting that kids are born with no morality and they learn it through life experience and the teaching and example of their elders, progressing from conventional reward and punishment-based morality to post conventional empathetic morality and on to universal morality. This latter is a state so exalted that on a competitive planet with limited resources, the best we can do is momentarily conceive of it after a couple of pills in a dance club or while singing some especially stirring hymn in a crowded church. It's generally agreed that universal altruism is not attainable without dying unless some other sap hangs about looking after you which defeats the purpose of your groaning martyrdom.
The ten commandments are obviously the work of a particular culture and the work of men - men who wrote before a time we were capable of screwing the planet by over consumption. A smarter set of commandments could be generated by any remotely sensitive 15 year old starting with "Thou shalt have no possessions" and ending with "Thou shalt not commit bigotry".
I would strongly argue that secular morality is objective, while christian morality is subjective. That does not mean that christians do not generally act in an objectively moral way, because they do. The point is that christians aren't constantly referring to the commandments every time they walk out the door. They act 'morally' because that is what they do. This insistence on a divine moral code is a certainly a feature of human subjectivism that does not play out in reality. When was the last time you saw some round bottomed brunette girl with a smile like the first day of spring and then spent an hour wrestling with whether or not it would be morally wrong to just rape her? Never? I thought so.
If you're confused about the origins of morality I highly recommend reading some Piaget and some Kohlberg. Or just examine the changes experience has wrought on your own character. There comes a time in life when morality is an imperative and god has nothing to do with it. You serve your family and this selflessness spills out into the wider community. You have made mistakes and you have been hurt and these life lessons guide you. Who drives the social organisations in every community? Fathers and mothers with a massive oversupply of oxytocin.
If you have any argument about any of this I'd be eager to read statistics proving the godless are more restive in their civic behaviour than the godly.
In any case, the forefathers of your great country were strongly secular. They would not be happy to see religion touted as the source of human goodness.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
5 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. 6 "You shall not murder. 7 "You shall not commit adultery. 8 "You shall not steal. 9 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 10 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house ; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
How can 5 be "too vague and sweeping"? You give honor where honor is 'due'. I don't know your background or the relationship you have/had with your parents. I understand pain all too well, I was raised in an alcoholic environment - it wasn't very nice by any standard. They are both gone now. Yet, through those 18 years, I still honor them as my mom and dad. They had their difficulties, some of which I'll never understand. They tried, and I am thankful.
I don't understand your beef with "You shall not commit adultery".
The 10th is not prosecuting thought crime. It is more a vow to accept the lot given you and live within it, and knowing (within the passages of the Bible, that we should not worry about such things as we should have faith that we will be provided for). Yes, we see with our eyes and covet whatever it is. Some of us dream about it, some of us steal, some of us live beyond our means.
I believe your statement, "I can easily come up with all three of those rules", is you (maybe, because you make the statement with the knowledge you have gained up to now). It's nice to see that you are against murder, stealing, and lying; how about your neighbor? The guy in the next county? Brian Mitchell? I'm guessing that those values were instilled in you as a child from parents who either received those same values or adopted them. When you became old enough to know right from wrong, you, too, adopted them - they have a source.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
No, I have no doubts, just asking.
Yes, man is wonderful - I agree. Judging human history, no, I don't think man could arrive at 5-10.
Birth - ok, fair enough. Are you a citizen of the USA?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Thanks for the humor, I laughed and thought it funny. However, the point you stress is not indicative of all those who call themselves Christian (and show evidence).
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
JcGadfly,
You remind me of these celebrities that have played a part in a movie then are consulted by news media as an expert in that field. You played the part of a Christian but you are a blind man picking colors in the relationship with Christ.
It's true I can't restrain the wind or hold oil in my hand so blow and drip on. But know that your fun house view of Christianity stands on your unbelief that Christ is LORD and real and saves. You in essence call Jesus a liar then proceed to give your commentary on Scripture. What you know about Jesus and salvation would be rightly represented with a book of empty pages.
If you are "glad to admit" anything about me what follows is a mischaracterization of what I said. So you consider God and Jesus liars and I'm deeply worried about your opinion of me - NOT. From your own post above you say you don't know what faith in Jesus is. If that was honestly applied you wouldn't be winking with your eye, scraping with your foot, pointing with your finger, devising evil and sowing discord. So I would think you would have to view yourself honestly as a hypocrite. Maybe that's an asset to an actor.
Same here. So I guess your answer would be : "No, I don't think so" ?
Yay !
But they did, so on what exactly do you base that opinion ?
No, but my parents are Opus Dei members (the real deal, not the Dan Brown comicbooky version), which would translate as "moderate christian" in USA terms, so your state of mind isn't totally foreign to me.
Oh noes! Fonzie sez I wuzn't a troo Christshun!
Must be because I pushed his envelope and used more scripture than he could handle. Oh damn, I even threw in some Greek.
That must be why he chose to insult me rather than answer my points. Am I making you think too much? Is your lithium addled brain having a rebellion? Are the insults really the best you can do?
Can you please tell me where I called Jesus a liar in my commentary on Paul? They never met and Paul's teaching stood against the teachings of Jesus. Granted, Paul's teachings are easier - you don't have to worry about being decent to other humans as long as you believe God did the mysteries Paul described to make Jesus a god.
I don't know what faith in Jesus is. That's logical - I don't have faith in Harry Potter either. I don't need to have faith in Jesus in order to figure out that you don't have it either. I did that from a cursory reading of your posts and a study of Scripture. Funny how my "book of empty pages" has more information in it than you've been able to show. Maybe I should be a spokesman for your God...Nah, I can't dismiss my integrity as easily as you can. You have me there, fonzie.
I think my opinion of you bothers you more than you let on. If it didn't would you be protesting so vigorously about how you don't care about it? No biggie, some people are more comfortable with the scales on their eyes - must be why you keep putting them back on.
I didn't read your last sentence. Actually, hypocrisy is a detriment to an actor. I'll let Stanislavski speak on this:
"Bring yourself to the part of taking hold of a role, as if it were your own life. Speak for your character in your own person. When you sense this real kinship to your part, your newly created being will become soul of your soul, flesh of your flesh."
"Put life into the imagined circumstances and actions until you have completely satisfied your sense of truth and until you have awakened a sense of faith in the reality of your own sensations."
"The actor must believe in everything that takes place on the stage - and most of all - in what he himself is doing - and one can only believe in the truth."
Have you found the truth in yourself, fonzie? Do you even believe you can? Or will you settle for borrowing a myth and twisting it to your own ends?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
He reminds you of a famous actor ? You been to see one of his plays ? I thought you didn't like him.
Science already figured out a way to let blind people see colors. You need to work on some new analogies.
Is it ? Okay.
Uhm, why are telling him that ? Did he say that you could ? *reads JC's post* Nope, he didn't say that.
If you read his post, I think you'll find he exposes the problem with your concept of "sin".
You deal with his arguments by ignoring them, so you really shouldn't be using "blind people" analogies, should you ?
Actually, it seems to stand pretty firmly on the bible and "christians" such as yourself. So please, keep talking.
We call you a liar. You're not jesus. Please, learn the difference.
As for his "commentary on scripture", he quotes it and asks you a question. You don't answer it.
So far every discussion about "jesus and salvation" between you two has ended with you ignoring his arguments and questions, and responding with half-baked insults.
So no, that would not be a fair representation of his knowledge.
You once accused someone of "mischaracterising" the word "yes". So obviously you have no idea what the word "mischaracerization" means. I'm guessing you read it on an apologist website somewhere and liked the sound of it.
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/MISCHARACTERISE
Good example ! Read his post again, and try to find the sentence where he said that. It's not there, is it ? Gee, go figure.
Since you're a proud and shameless liar, there's no reason for you to care about anyone's opinion.
But he's not "winking his eye, scraping his foot, pointing with his finger or sowing discord", so what are you talking about ?
But you gave no reason why, so no, that wouldn't be very honest, would it ? But then, you're not a very honest person, as this thread keeps proving, time and time again.
Actually, if he was a hypocrite, a career in the church, or a life as a christian apologist internet poster, would be more advisable.
Btw, is there an underlying reason for your consistent dishonesty ?
IOW, why did you lie to us ?
Necessity ?
Because it doesn't define honor, and it doesn't explain how it is given.
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that my relationship with my parents was terrible, although it certainly isn't perfect. On the other hand, I did mean to imply that kids shouldn't have an absolute obligation to honor their parents. As you said, "give honor where honor is due." I think parents should still have to earn respect from their children, to an extent.
So, are you saying that kids should honor their parents under any circumstances?
Edit: Hmmm, I'm using the term 'honor' after asking for it to be defined. Okay, I'm equivocating it with "respect." Do you think that's a good definition or do you attach more to it?
It is a religious law. I have no problems with marriage as a legal union and as a form of trust between spouses, but I think people should be allowed to have sex outside of marriage. I see nothing wrong with people having premarital sex or even extramarital partners, provided that couples agree or allow to having extramarital partners beforehand.
Can a Christian be punished for coveting their neighbor's wife?
Sort of.
They are still my preferences. In the same sense, you could also say that my genes are a source.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
JcGadfly,
When Jesus came to earth He wasn't well received. There was "no room in the Inn" so to speak. He claimed to be "the Lamb of God", "before Abraham was I AM", "The Bread of Life", "The Light of the World". He continued His purpose of saving us to death, even death on a cross. He finished His course. He didn't quit. He claimed to have risen from the dead. He walked and talked and ate with His disciples after He was raised from the dead. You say He is lying. You don't have faith in Him.
And, you're welcome to not have what you don't want, but I do.
You do realize comparing yourself to Jesus is a sin, right? I believe it's called "assumption of Godhead".
It takes guts to compare my taking down your arguments to Jesus' persecution, I'll give you that.
It's hard for me to take him seriously when you put up such a laughably hypocritical defense.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
You call Jesus a liar in essence because you don't accept what He said about Himself. It's even worse since from your own mouth you admit you are a traitor to Him.
As far as your imagination goes in what you say about me you can impress yourself on that I guess, but know that you might be heading out to sea rudderless for a divorce from reality if your rope keeps fraying and separating. Jesus Himself said it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher and the servant like his Master. They called the Master Beelzebul, so you have paid me many such compliments with your maligning. It's too easy though to make up your own distortions and then shoot your fire-arrows at them. What fuels this? The reality of your father the devil at work in you. It's a case of "Driving Miss Daisey" (over the cliff) - and it's not virtual.
And don't fool yourself trying to blame your unbelief on me. The fathers haven't eaten sour grapes such that your teeth have been set on edge. The soul that sins shall die. But if the wicked turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps His statutes and does what is lawful and right - he shall surely live and not die. So this is not despair with a lie of no hope at the bottom. You can repent of your unbelief in Jesus and live. You can receive the Kingdom of God with many troubles. Or you can prate on.
Uhm, no, again, you seem to have some trouble with the concept of actually reading the words people post. Nowhere in his posts does JC call Jesus a liar. Apparently that doesn't matter to you.
We've called you a liar, though. You didn't leave us much choice, since lying seems to be an acceptable form of communication for you.
Let's try this again (and again, and again, and again....) : You are not jesus. You are not god. Exposing your hypocrisy and debunking your arguments does not equal calling god/jesus a liar.
Got that ?
Apparently not. *sigh*
Right , so we're back where you always end up : Everyone who doesn't agree with you is the devil. I'd call it childish, but that would be an insult to children.
I guess this "you're the devil" business is just the religous version of mindless vulgarity.
Is he doing that ? Let's, just for fun, actually read what he wrote. Oh dear, looks like he didn't "blame" anything on you. So why say he did ?
Look, if you really don't understand what he's telling you, just ask. Don't make stuff up.
What ?
Sleazebag deathbed conversion ftw !
Then why did you lie ?
Or you can not do that and live anyway. Seriously, why limit your choices like that ?
Oh, it's got lots of troubles.
Or you can be honest.
It would seem you'd rather not do that.
IRT honor - you only have to look as far as the Hebrew word that is translated as honor (kabad). The way it is used here is meant to mean "give weight to" and "promote". Giving weight meaning "add importance". So, give your parents a deep sense of commitment. Honor is something that is taught and handed down. Honor here is deeper that respect as respect can be conditional whereas honor is promoting above without condition. As a child, a teen, and for quite some time as an adult - this was difficult for me. One I tried empathy (putting myself in their shoes/circumstances) then I understood most of what happened to them and me - and I wonder if I could have done any better than they under the same circumstances. Now, I'm not condoning what happened, just understanding and coming to the conclusion that they are my parents and for that I am grateful.
Adultery - Marriage is a 100% commitment of man and woman to each other. So, If I have vowed that I will give 100%, then why would I want anything else? Is there temptation - yes, and I recognized it (it comes in all forms - not just another pretty gal. It can also show up as selfishness). Sex outside of marriage, I know many who have and I equate it like going to the bathroom, at the end I flush. Sex is good, but I believe it is best when it is done in marriage.
Coveting is a sin and a commandment. I've seen much comment in this forum regarding Christians and sin. Can a Christian sin - yes. Can he claim that he is without it - no. For a Christian, committing a sin, is likened to spiritual adultery. The Christian has voluntarily committed their life to a loving relationship with God Almighty through His Son Jesus Christ. To sin consciously is to step away from that commitment. Can I be restored or am I banished forever? The only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit meaning, I reject God, His Son, and His Holy Spirit openly and refuse to follow. Sin can be equated to error, and errors can be remedied because of love. However, within Christianity the one committing the error must confess and seek the remedy - forgiveness. So, Yes, a Christian can be punished. Is it immediate - sometimes yes; however, grace can withhold until judgment.
Your genes were given to you and have nothing to do with how you think, just that you 'can' think and reason.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
JcGadfly,
You're flipping in and out of character here - which is it? You don't believe in Jesus then you mention His great persecution.
He is far, far, far above me as I've stated many times.
I don't think you realize what a great sin unbelief is. You ride a moral high-horse of sorts but you miss the road for the ride. By your life and words you say Jesus is a liar. You know Who He claimed to be and you know what you have said about Him and how you have discarded Him. You don't realize the dangerous position you are in. No matter how much Anonymouse toadies all over you - one day you will see he represents your worst enemy. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend - profuse are the kisses of an enemy".
Yes, in three ways. First and foremost relationship to God. I don't obey them because He tells me I should, I obey them because it is a vehicle by which I can show my love for Him. Second, the world needs a moral standard. Will we ever live up to it? So far, the answer appears to be no. Third, on a horizontal plane we do so to foster relationship with our neighbor.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
I was just gonna ask you that. You realise you already replied to this one, right ?
Actually, you're the one who keeps bringing that up, every time we criticize you. Which is strange, to say the least.
Then why can't you tell the difference between your arguments being criticized and the life of jesus ? You're giving another example of that in about three sentences :
And there it is. First of all, no, "by his words" he did not say that jesus is a liar. Try actually reading his words. You're bearing false witness here. I still wonder why you keep doing that, btw.
Second, what we are saying is that you are a liar. This is a sad, but by now, indisputable fact. How this leads to jesus being a liar, nobody knows.....unless you think you and jesus are one and the same ? You're not. Sorry.
You guys have different opinions about the same subject. You don't realise that threatening him only proves his point.
Yeah, I'll get you ! And your little dog too ! Booga booga booga !
I already have a boyfriend, thanks.
So, Meph, if you're all done with the insults, how about you explain why you're being so consistently dishonest with us ? What the heck did we do to you anyway ?
Just in case this is a reaction to my short reply, I don't really see how the first is a necessity.
Actually, Ive been pretty consistent. I've been dismantling your arguments, showing you how much of your religion you don't know and calling you out when ever you claim that whatever BS persecution you go through here puts you on a par with the persecution stories that Paul's converts made up to support Jesus' godhood.
If he is so far above you why/how are you able to make him bend to your will as your posts indicate? Who's really the master in your relationship? I have a suspicion but I dare you to be honest.
Anony's definitely been closer to a friend to me than you as I prefer honest brokers. I will accept that you are my enemy because you seem to want it - not because I think it the truth or because I've been looking for it. See, in order to be my enemy I have to hate you - I don't. I don't want to waste energy on that if I can use it more constructively. If you want to hate me and be my enemy, that's your problem.
It shows me more of your "godly" example.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
1. So you do it more to kiss up to God in the hopes to show hoe much yopu love him to get good stuff?
2. The world has better moral codes than God's. He can't even follow his own code. Why should we try if he can't?
3. see 2. Fonzie supposedly follows God's moral code but he couldn't tell the truth if his tongue was notorized.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
1. Kiss up? That's not what relationship is about.
2. Like what? As long as a person does not allow God sovereignty, then I guess they will come to the same conclusion as you espouse.
3. Fonzie - I don' t know him. Yes, I know he writes here.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Not a reaction really. Yes, that's why you label yourself as an atheist. So, you agree with the second and third statements?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
1. That's not what a relationship is about, true. Christianity isn't a relationship - It's a religion. Relationships are two-way streets and are held between equals.
2. God said to man "Thou shalt not kill (some versions say murder)" then he goes on killing sprees that would make serial murderers blush. God said "Thou shalt not steal" while commanding his followers to become paupers to keep some of his clergy in opulence. Jehovah-jireh? Yeah, right.
3. Read fonzie's posts and see what a skilled liar he is.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Sorry, my bad.
Actually, my religious loved ones do that. I never really bothered myself.
As for not living up to a moral standard, speak for yourself.
No clue what the third one's about. Sorry for butting in.
Wait, wait, whoa pony! Not sure when the door was added, but the building itself dates to the 1930's, so I hope you aren't confusing our far more recent forefathers with the founding fathers.
Interesting bit of info about the door and other artistry at the supreme court building here: www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
I'm still not completely clear on what children are supposed to do. They are supposed to respect their parents unconditionally? But deeper than that?
Good point.
I agree that if a couple goes into a monogamous relationship, they shouldn't cheat on each other. But, I only despise such an act because it is a breach of trust. I don't consider any particular relationship to be 'sacred.'
On another note, legal marriage is no longer equivalent to religious marriage. So, nowadays, some people will get legally married without even an intention of having a monogamous relationship. Yet, in Christianity, isn't that still considered adultery?
Okay, so it's thought crime.
The thought is 'I want something that's not mine.'
Oh, that's not true. They have almost everything to do with how I think. If it's not environment, it's genes.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Hey Fonzie,
Sadly, you are among the Christian drones who abandon logic with the crux that. Oh well, woe is me. I guess you can't prove or disprove God, Better go eat some worms.
Have you studied logic. What's with the apathy. If you go in like some wimp, you're going to get your butt kicked. Use your head (Romans 12:1-2).
If only one man would be trained in logic and philosophy via a Christian worldview as a boy. It only takes one, to completely turn the world upside down. The liberals know this, and this is why they are destroying our society. And it's working, and it's creeping into the church.
The product of liberal people are YOU.
Respectfuly
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Did you just tell "Fonzie" to study philosophy ? Oh, this should be good.
Tell him, Meph ! Tell him what you think of philosophy ! (Or did you change your mind ?
)
Well, for the most part, children obey their parents - yes they can be unruly at times. Rebellion sometimes confused with independence comes mostly in the teen years. Respect is expected by most parents (at least when I was growing up - I'm 56 now, so I'm a baby boomer). Respect can be giving honor like saying Mr., Mrs., etc; however, honor is placing them higher. In Mexico you can see this in the family unit, especially with the elderly - it's almost worship how they care and treat their grandmother's and grandfathers, moms and dads.
Yes, adultery is a breech of trust and a violation. Sacred, ok, we can leave holiness out of it and keep this secular. But, you know, when you take vows, even if it is in front of a justice of the peace - they are sacred. If you really mean what you say - then I would call that sacred. If you mean what you say, then your partner is accepting your vow as truth, and truth is sacred to me. Yeah, whatever way you get married, in a church, in an office, whatever. Well, I suppose that is going on (getting married and fooling around with the partners assent), but that is still adultery and can be held up in a court of law. And in Christianity, yes, it is adultery. Adultery goes on more step in the NT, just looking at a woman with lust is adultery.
Ok, IRT coveting I was thinking more along the line of Farenheit 451 <smile>. Yeah, covet is wanting something that isn't yours - according to that commandment.
I'm not so qualified to talk genetics, but how we are formed gives us the power to think and reason. We are all blessed by differing intelligences. We all react differently to words, numbers, pictures, music, etc. Some of us show stronger abilities in these areas than others - this would explain why a 6 year old is playing Mozart perfectly, while the rest of us are just tapping our toes - so I'll give you that. So there are strengths and abilities; however, environment plays an enormous part in the thinking process IMO. Input+Reason = Output, and that reasoning power can be shaped.
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
1. Thanks. Catholicism is a religion, Christianity is a relationship. Relationship does not necessarily require 'equals.' And I'm reading equals here as peers. Is that your definition too?
2. Again, if you do not consider the God of the Bible as sovereign (meaning He can do what He wants), then there's a problem and I have not trouble understanding your point. His will was exacted on those that did not obey the Law or attack His children Israel. He also used those outside of Israel to kill those in Israel as punishment - so He's no respecter of persons. His way or no way; however, that doesn't make Him an ogre. He calls me friend. Yes, He is the God that provides (Jireh). His providence can be seen and I am a witness to those times that His providence was applied to me and those around me.
3. Again, I don't know Fonzie and I will not speak about him. He is responsible for his actions, not me (I don't mean this in a positive or negative sense).
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
1. I think meaningful relationships are between peers. Christianity seems more like Owner/Pet, Master/Slave, Victim/Abuser. Those are relationships but not meaningful ones. What's even stranger is that they made this God in the first place so they are doing this to themselves.
2. He killed people who didn't obey the Law - in most cases because they did not know it existed or who didn't know that Israel was under "divine protection". Would you want to die because you violated the rules of a game you didn't know you were playing? He calls you friend - OK. It may be more like being called "man's best friend" - all you have to do to earn this "friendship" is blind, unquestioning obedience. That kind of "friendship" has people strapping bombs to themselves. No thanks.
3. I never said you were responsible for his actions. I just wanted to let you know who you were defending.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Fonzie, Without preaching and insulting people more, could you please find it in yourself to answer the question anonymouse has repeatedly asked you? Why do you lie? Also why do you resort to insulting people?These are simple questions yet every time you are asked you dodge by quoting more scripture,putting words in peoples mouths and further insulting people. Answer the questions!
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I don't believe there are any rules dictating that a relationship must be balanced. Work relationships rarely are, but are nevertheless beneficial for both parties. One thing that a relationship normally does require though is a continuing flow of information and concepts between both parties. Talking to oneself and pretending that your invisible friend is actually hearing the conversation isn't much of a relationship, nor is listening to the voice in your head and pretending it is coming from an invisible sky fairy. Both in fact would tend to suggest mental illness, as would claiming to have a close personal relationship with a 2,000 plus year old corpse.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Hello Hesed. Pardon me for interrupting your discussion, but I feel I must comment. Morality is much more than any set of commands. Following rules is an immature and blind way to live with others. It is not a way to become a person of virtue. Morals based upon commands, are not just inadequate, but completely misses what human morality is about.
Without empathy, morality is sterile and useless. Without reason, we cannot make a mature and informed moral decision. We also must learn how to coexist with each other through experience and reflection. The shortcomings of the ten commandments are shown by the almost complete lack of their being obeyed and enforced, and their absence within the judicial system. What laws support the ten commandments? Only the ones that were in place long before christians copied them. Murder, stealing, and false testimony. That's it! And what about the second set of ten commandments on the stone tablets in Exodus 34 ? Nobody even mentions them.
Morals are within our makeup, and are subject to social pressures. All social animals possess some sort of morals. It's only natural. To extract them and project them onto a God, only makes the God a human control freak. Obey or be punished. How Orwellian!
Do the fundies never even read their book? Exodus has a heck of a lot more than 10 commandments. Moses must have used a forklift to carry the rocks they were inscribed on.
Lets start before the commandments though. Exodus 19:21-25
Yahweh: Yo, Mo ma homie! Go round up da posse cuz I gonna chat dey asses up. Tell da bros ta take a shower though, cuz I don' wan 'em sinkin' up da house.
Moses: G-Dawg, ya'll done tole me youse gonna pop a cap in dey ass ifn dey come up dah hill, remember?
Yahweh: Dat right, ma main man! I done gone an forget dat! Too much blow, ya know what I'm sayin? Hows 'bout you an ya bro come rap wit me. Tell da bitches ta stay where they be.
Thats right. Our supposedly omniscient god forgot that he had set a prohibition upon the people, forbidding them to touch the mountain. Moses had to remind our all knowing but strangely forgetful recycled Canaanite high god of his own commands. Only afterward in Exodus 20 and beyond does Yahweh lay down the 10-ish commandments. Among the 10-ish are to make him an altar of earth complete with sacrifices (Ex 20:24), an altar of stone (Ex 20:25), laws for selling your daughter (Ex 21:7-8), laws about oxen falling into uncovered pits ( Ex 21:33-34), restitution for burnt corn (Ex 22:6), as well as laws for sacrificing your first crops, alcohols, and sons (yes, sons) to god (Ex 22:29). Only after all this, and I left out most of the commandment issued, does god tell Moses that he is written all this excrement down for him.
Now how in Rashap's grey sheol do you get only 10 commandments from all the ramblings of Exodus?
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.
Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.
Queen Rebecca,
You don't have to tell a lie on this forum to be accused of it - which is the case. All you have to do is come on here believing in Christ. It's simply Anonymouse's way of trying to annoy - which it isn't doing. It's like the old suggestive question of "when are you going to stop beating your wife"? "now or later?" Then you just twang "now or later" like flailing a 5 string banjo or sprinkling all your sentences with the "F" word - you just keep twanging on and on and people will know you're clever because you really don't want an answer you just want to twang. So how would you answer the question - "now" or "later"? See if you try to explain that you don't beat your husband or wife, or cheat on your husband or wife, well, you just haven't answered the question - because you haven't said: "now"? or "later"? Hope that helps.
You're welcome.
I'm afraid it's not. It was the simplest test of your honesty devisable, and you failed it. Even after all this time, I still find it surprising that you even bothered to lie.
No, all you have to do to be accused of lying here is to lie and stick with it, even after you get caught.
Which you did.
Well, if it was "my way", then it's strange that only you seem to have this problem with me.
Nope, it is not in any way like that, for the simple reason that you have repeatedly provided proof of your lies. You really have a tendency for comparing things that are in no way similar. Kindly wean yourself off this bad habit.
For example, as I have been forced to repeat ad nauseam, you lied about your earlier threads. I asked you if you were the same person as the guy who started the "WHAT FAITH YOU" thread, and you denied it.
Then you proceeded to provide proof of your dishonesty by simply repeating your personal information from that thread, down to the most minute details.
This made your lie even more absurd. To this day, I simply don't understand why you even bothered to lie so blatenly and shamelessly. I mean, what could you possibly have to gain ?
And then you went and made it worse, but forcing people to repeat answers they already gave, many, many times before, simply by claiming the answers were never given.
You once even triumphantly announced the atheist's failure to answer your question, in a reply that quoted that very answer !
Lies just don't get more absurd than that.
You mean you want to answer ? Okay, answer me then : Why did you lie ?
(Btw, since the proof for your lies is your own words, which can be read from the screen in front of your face, you might want to skip the post where you deny having lied at all)
No, you can't explain away a lie with yet more dishonesty.
The only thing that will help here is if you answer the question honestly, and you haven't done that yet.
So here we go, once again with feeling, why did you lie ?
And for all you guys out there who think this is useless, who want to say how boring this thread is, well, DUH ! I'm aware of that. But know this : This guy's been here 3 years (I kid you not), and people here have bent over backwards for him. They took his insults and his condescension without complaining. They answered his questions no matter how many times he repeated and rephrazed them. They let him get away with his lies for the sake of argument.
And what did they get in return ? Read the thread and find out.
Me repeating this question over and over again is simply force-feeding him his own medicine.
The point is , there is nothing else to do in this thread ! There's not a question left that hasn't been answered yet, and he doesn't care !
So please, stop trying. I only post here so nobody else has to. (And if he didn't start bumping it when we ignore him, even I would have been outta here long ago)
You're welcome.