It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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You're his friend, right ? And you were in his first thread.
Then you can ask him why it's so important to him not to own up to his earlier thread. Maybe he'll answer you, cause he sure as heck thinks it's worth his while not to answer us for some reason.
After all these years, can you understand we're getting kind of tired of that ?
So do us all a favor and ask him so we can close this thread. Thanks.
Good, then we agree, and then there's no need to discuss any other definitions.
Moving on.
No. We already told you that the first time you posted those smileys.
If you read this thread, you'll find that already happened here. We're kinda wondering why we're being forced to repeat ourselves time and time again.
Just. Read. The. Thread.
If you seriously want to participate in this thread, then that isn't an unreasonable suggestion.
You didn't want to "own a thread", but now it's yours ? Dude, make up your mind.
Okay, you answered your own question there. Good.
Nope, I explained this several times before. My mom has what he has, and I've been what amounts to her primary caregiver since I was 11, mainly due to the fact that the rest of my family, including her, thinks her condition can be fixed by praying at it. To make a long story short, it's been a really bad 6 years, but I now know more about the available meds and their side-effects than most doctors and some psychiatrists.
Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but I'm afraid that means you haven't really looked.
Even if you just google "lithium bloodtests", the very first hit is a bullseye.
"The problem with lithium is that a certain level of the drug has to be produced in the blood for it to be effective. But if the level rises too much, unpleasant and potentially serious side-effects can occur."
"If the lithium level gets too high, it can be potentially dangerous and will produce some severe and unpleasant effects – this is what is often called 'lithium toxicity'."
Which is why the bloodtests are needed.
Okay ?
Yikes. You must have thought we were a right bunch of assholes. Should have said something sooner, dude.
Anyway, glad we cleared that up.
Anony asked (twice now) if you could talk to fonzie about his lying about his former internet identity here since you claim to be his friend. The first time you launched into a definition of "lie" presumably to show why fonzie hasn't done it. That's the evasion I was talking about.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I think the "lie" being discussed here is that from what I gather, Fonzie either fully admitted, gave hint to, or Anonymouse realized it was actually Fonzie in the what faith have you thread. Honestly I don't have much time on my hands to read both threads thoroghly. I have an 18 year old to help with starting her adult life and a child with special needs. Basically, this site is an escape from my day to day routine and a chance for me to discuss with other atheists my thoughts on religion. Also to debate these things with theists so long as they aren't degrading type people. I lose my patience with that one very quickly.
Since I can't discuss with you what a lie is, I don't feel we'll get very far in the second part of that conversation, since the first part ended with you sending a 5 or 6 word sentence. I think all could be good discussion, but you may not be interested it seems by your response. I think the point of this forum is atheist vs theist defending of faith whether it be faith in no God or faith in God. I would think then that people would come to this forum to defend, discuss, bash, have fun, heckle, but the first 2 would have most value.
It seems that it's all about
because most theists come here to preach and degrade us because of our non belief in god. Of course you guys get the same in return. The thing is that if theists could understand not to demonize us and tell us we are ignorant, it would be more DEBATE, not arguing. Debate is different than arguing because in debate you dicuss things and you may disagree but you agree to disagree. What I've found a lot of times in trying to debate theists is that it normally turns to insults from them and of course I do return the favor. We have a new one named Jean Chavuin who actually has stated he likes to argue. Something along the lines of "let's argue!". I have to take breaks from this site at times to keep myelf from being kicked off for verbally abusing some theists who imo takes it too far. I'm not calling you a liar because I don't think it can be proven that a god ever exsisted or didn't. I'm just aying I don't believe it. Believe what you want but don't push it down my throat and call me ignorant because I still won't believe you. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
I'm not a medical proffesional by any means. I wanted to be a nurse from the time I was 14, Just never got the chance to persue it. However, I have been through a lot of a medical training if you will considering that I have type one diabetes (juevunile) and my son has had major surgeries and lengthy hospital stays. Heart surgery, titanium rods place in his back and on ribs, a shunt (head), spinal cord surgery and so on. I've learned a greatdeal of medical terminology in the midst of all this and done research on every condition I hear about that I don't already know about.
I also suffer from depression myself, so I've been on several antidepressants. Lithium not being one but I have done the research on it. The reason for these blood test are to check your kidneys, thyroid, and your blood count. I think if I remember correctly to check your liver function as well. Sometimes they ask for a 24 hour urine sample meaning yo collect the urinr over a 24 hour period and take it back to the doctor so they can tell how the medication is effecting you daily. Also they may want an ecg heart testing done because as with most medications, heart problems are a side effect.
They do these tests to make sure the levels of lithium don't get too high because if they do, like Anonymouse explained, the side effects are unpleasant. It's like they aren't taking lithium at all. They become deranged acting and it's almost like they don't even realize they are here. It reminds me of altzheimers. They start saying and doimg starange things. So the reason for the blood tests is to insure they are given the exact doesage they need. Too little - not good, too much- not good. If Fonzie is taking lithium, I would strongly suggest the regular blood tests because the side effects are a bad thing.
We're talking kidney function which is scary because he could end up on dialisis and once that happens you are put on a waiting list usually for a kidney replacement. Even after a replacement your life exspectancy is i think in the ballfield of 10-20 years tops. Not exactlly sure. I'm no doctor and I'm not trying to give actually medical advice here but just trying to share the things I've learned.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Ok I'm not sure wtf happened to my post but hopefully it' readable lol
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
4. the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
This is not that complicated. We just look at the definitions. Fonzie is lying according to definition 1, 2, and 3. I don't remember if he committed 4. Even if we don't agree that these definitions accurately define "lying," he's still doing these things.
I don't think Fonzie will ever explicitly and clearly define what he means, but through what he says, it seems like he just means that his religion makes him happy and makes his life feel fulfilling.
Lol. A few pages maybe. Reading the entire thread seems pretty unreasonable to me. We don't want to torture him.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Butterbattle,
Here's the explicit and clear definition of what I mean by "works for me". Jesus came to save sinners - Savior, sinners, salvation. The key part of this is the Savior. If I presented a man or man that claimed to talk to an angel or even an angel as "savior" he wouldn't be authentic or able. The Savior I am announcing here is God Himself in the form of a man. The One Who stretched the heavens and filled the seas from His hand is able to save (that's the salvation, the part that "works" and is "working" for me and many others).
There is another element in this - sinners. Sinners are hard to find. There don't seem to be many here on this website. You guys bill yourselves as good. Some of you bill yourselves as more knowing and more righteous than God. I'm a sinner. God has totally forgiven me in His mercy. I'm totally dependent on Jesus and His Sacrifice to save. That works for me and I'm thankful for it.
I don't mind being attacked with mischaracterizations or falsely accused of lying but I might point out that these just seem to be purpose-full distractions thrown up by atheists who have nothing that is really "working" for them. Instead, their tactic is just try to destroy the messenger. Thus the issue of how atheism works versus how salvation in Christ works is not discussed.
You try to characterize me as insane - I see unbelief in God and Jesus as insanity. You say I am lying that Salvation in Christ "works for me" - I say you are lying that atheism "works for you". But you don't get into the ways atheism works in detail - because in detail it doesn't. It can't be defended as a workable approach to life and death. My position is that atheism can only insult and mock and strut and prate in blasphemy. Where is the substance that applies to life other than that in atheism? How can it be defended that atheism works?
Fonzie,
Maybe faith in jesus does work for idk. The comment I made about that being a "lie" was because you have the lounged running thread that I know on here. Maybe you are taking lithium because I don't think the most sane person could at times be able to come back and calmly respond as I have seen you do. This isn't to negate that in your preaching to us, you have been a bit insulting. In any case, what works for you doesn't work for everyone. It does seem to me that my life has calmed down since I let go of the whole god/jesus delusion
It's allowed me to focus on the "real" things in my life that need attention. God/jesus doesn't need my attention. He has plenty of followers. Is he going to die just because I chose not to follow? Well we know that's not the case since he's immaterial. Not to get you started preaching at me because you should know it won't do you any good but I do not see how an immaterial "being" can punish me for anything. I'm not doing wrong. I'm not out stealing, killing , raping, I'm just living day to day focusing on the things I need to take care of. Like my sons and my daughter.
My youngest is disabled and my oldest just grew up but I'm still helping her get her life in order so that she's not stressed out over bills. I'm not evil, I just want a stress free life and god/jesus wasn't allowing that. I don't like living under scrutiny
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Does it really take 46 freaking pages just to say that you prefer Christianity over atheism ? This thread is nothing but endless repetition. It's nothing but page after page of meaningless dialog.
If you are certain of your beliefs then what does it matter if atheists continue to disagree with you ? You made your stand for Jesus, beaten this thread to death, and still you have nothing to show for it.
ps, here's some advice from Jesus regarding your perpetual lack of success among the atheists here :
"If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them." Luke 9:3
Move on !
Just in case you were wondering why I keep telling people to read this thread before they post, this is why :
*SIGH*
...and here we go AGAIN !
You have not been mischaracterised or falsely accused of lying. Not in this entire thread is there even one example of that.
There are, however, plenty of examples of your simple and completely unnecessary lies. Every single time you asked me to post them, I did.
And now you're claiming again that your questions where never answered.
Never mind that you yourself have already agreed that they were.
Never mind that this whole thread is filled to bursting with people answering your same questions again and again and again...
Insane ? By now, I'm afraid that's an understament.
ENOUGH.
Here, this is how your first thread got closed :
He did the same thing in his Trollville thread, so it got closed as well.
Then he registered again, and now here he is, doing it AGAIN.
Seriously, ENOUGH !
Close this thing down or rename this forum Fonzie's Place.
No maybe about it. Here's a quote from #505 (which is a repeat from his first thread)
Omfig! Fonzie, you can"t be your own doctor! Not to mention, that's a lie anyway. You can't get lithium without a doctor unless you buy it from a drug dealer and why would a drug dealer sell that crap? It can't be a fun drug. It just stabilizes moods and if not taken correctly can make people delusional.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
The Trollville Trolley is fueling up at the local train station and is standing by awaiting orders from the administration.
Tickets to Trollville vary in price, please see the man at the ticket window for details.
Departure and Arrival times will be posted at a later time.
But don't worry folks while we are waiting around.
The Harley Sports Bar and Grill will be offering 2 for 1 drink specials while waiting. Ladies get in free, VIP passes available. Live entertainment and dance floor, pool tables and shuffleboards available. Also feel free to watch the latest events of IT WORKS FOR ME unfold on any of the bar's computer monitors. If not, the sports bar also has all of the latest games available on our HUGE Hi-definition tv sets. Come party at Harley's while waiting on the Trollville train. Christians : There will be a cover charge to get in and you must have an Atheist chaperone with you at all times.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Anonymouse,
Since you insist on discussing bipolar rather than explain how atheism works for you I'm going to answer you on this - for the possible benefit of those suffering from bp.
Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison - professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, (who has bipolar and at one time was considered the foremost authority on bipolar) in her book, "An Unquiet Mind" (which I don't have now, gave away so I can't look it up for you) came to the same opinion and use of lithium to treat her own bipolar - ultra small dose, no blood tests, well below what is considered "therapeutic level".
One of her ideas concerning why those afflicted with bipolar quit their medicine was that they missed the highs/lows. Of course it takes experience and time to arrive at this point - to become a student of moods including one's own, and be able to self monitor. Some of those past experiences weren't fun. I share in some of those un fun experiences with those she described in "An Unquiet Mind".
I'm sorry to hear about your mother and her suffering, yet I can't offer advice because every case appears to be different. It is a battle.
I have a doctor who is fine with this - in fact I have had 4 doctors who were (they one by one died or retired).
Well Harley,
Sure you can do that. But you might ask yourself why atheists would set a forum like this up and essentially say to the world "atheism is the way to go" - but not be able to defend it as it fits the ins and outs of life.
If atheism is the "way to go" and we should all jump on atheism then those who are experiencing the joys of atheism farther down the road should be able to light the way for those considering it.
Instead, I have just seen insults to Christianity and Christ, the Bible, God - but no description of how atheism is better.
If the only way you can deal with the question is to (a) lie and say you have described how atheism is better (which has not happened) or (b) attack Christianity or (c) kick those wanting to discuss this question off
One might want to ask the question - what does atheism really have to offer? And do those who don't want this fact exposed know it?
I have no idea what you mean by "it works for me" now, Fonzie, unless you just mean that you're a Christian and we're not. But, that was a good try, assuming that you're actually trying.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
And yet you're back here .....again. You're like a weird, obsessive boyfriend that no matter how many times your ex tells you it's over you just keep ringing her doorbell over and over until the cops finally come and take you away.
The forum was "set up" as you put it, presumably for discussion. Not to go round and round in circular arguments with someone that chooses to be willfully stupid and chooses to ignore all of the countless points that have been brought up over and over.
Now I personally have nothing to say to you, I am just here to mind the bar and serve the drinks until the Trollville Train comes to take you out of town. Hopefully by sunset.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Yet another lie.
I explained that the first time you asked me, in your first thread. You didn't care.
I answered every question you asked me, no matter how many times you rephrazed it. You still didn't care.
You're not here to discuss things. You're hear to lie to us and keep asking for answers you don't really want.
GO.
AWAY.
For the benefit of you, and any BP patient with an ounce of sense and a shred of survival instinct : "well below therapeutic level" doesn't actually have any effect at all. That's what "below therapeutic level" means.
All of this fails to take into account your age. It doesn't matter that you're taking a small dose. It can still go wrong. As long as you keep taking lithium, you need the regular bloodtests.
In which faith can't help you. You and my mom both are proof of that.
There are always doctors who'll prescribe anything their patients ask for.
Why keep asking questions if you don't care about the answers ???????
This is a discussion forum. GO. AWAY.
butterbattle,
Let me try again to explain please since I am truly here to discuss not insult: With the grace of God in Christ, the sound doctrine of the gospel, there is no need for us to downplay our true spiritual condition. We are bankrupt, totally broke spiritually. There is no advantage to try to negotiate our debt (for illustration) of 1,000,000$ to, say, .50 on the dollar or .25. Since we are totally broke, negotiation won't help. The only thing to do is to totally admit our total sinful bankrupt state and totally ask for mercy from the debt in Christ. Jesus came to save sinners (no qualifying term) - it's "whosoever will may come and drink of the water freely". So He is willing to forgive the total debt. (that works)
Unlike false religions, there is no need to downplay sin (so honesty about it "works). There is also no need to "up play" the value of our good deeds (that would be false, wouldn't "work) - because the salvation is all God's work. Also seeing ourselves as the total sinners we were makes us hopeful for all others. If Christ can save us He can save anybody.
So, it works. We come to Christ as total sinners. Christ came to earth to save sinners. Not "humble sinners", "sortof sinners", "believing sinners", "sorry sinners" - just sinners. Jesus loved sinners, was a friend to sinners, ate with sinners, died for sinners, loved even sinners who delighted in other sinners sinning (like one drunk delighting in another). We qualify. He knows how to save each of us. We have gone astray in different ways but He knows how save us.
Now, here's the problem. Sinners are hard to find it seems. But I was a sinner and now I am a saint - all thanks to Jesus. If you qualify (sinner) you can become a saint in Christ if you believe in Christ and His Atoning Sacrifice.
Paul described strong balancing forces (that "works) in his life after his life instantly changed, all things were made new, he was born again in Christ. He remembered what he was before he came to Christ - (chief of sinners, killing and jailing saints, blaspheming Christ) and that kept him humble. Yet, like Mary who anointed the feet of Jesus with the precious ointment and wiped His feet with her hair and tears that Jesus explained "loved much" because she was "forgiven much" - Paul had a great force of love for Christ compelling him onward and upward. He was chief of sinners on the one hand yet "not less than the chiefest apostle" on the other. For him to live from then on was Christ and to die gain.
So it "works for me" in the sense that I qualified too as a total bankrupt sinner, and now have great balancing forces operating in my life.
Hope that helps explain. I'm not here to insult but to discuss. I expect since this is a discussion forum you will explain how atheism motivates you to be a good person, love and help people - yet keeps you humble, not thinking too much of yourself. Also how you can look back in your atheism and see that what you are now and will be is far better than what you were and why - due to your atheism. I haven't insulted you here and since this is a discussion forum I expect discussion out of those answering this post.
I appeal to the administrators of this form to see that I am here in the atheist vs theist section trying to discuss how my belief in Christ "works" versus how atheism "works" for those dedicated to atheism. I offer these explanations of the forces of my faith that "work" and have described them to the best of my ability without insulting and an honest desire to discuss how they compare to the atheist view, and how the atheist forces "work for them". I am thankful to be here to be allowed to discuss these two opposite approaches to life and interested in understanding how something so foreign to me works for the good and brings the atheist community together in harmony.
Fonzie
You and Butter already discussed those things, so why ask him to do it again ?
Re-read your past discussions with him and others for answers to those questions.
You already literally admitted you sometimes forget the discussions you already had, so stop pretending it never happened.
Would you like to explain to "the administrators of this forum" why you registered again after being sent to Trollville ?
Would you also like to explain why there are hundreds of unanswered posts in your threads, while you claim you want to have a discussion ?
And could you also please tell us, why we have to repeat the same things again and again and again ? Why isn't once good enough ?
Come up with some new questions, answer some old ones, or just leave.
Sorry Hesed, for the very late reply. I don't come here much!
We humans (both believers and non-believers) have developed morality over time, learning through experience within our various societies that certain basic morals should be incorporated into laws. Murder is not ok because cooperation is better for families and society. We value our lives, so the person who murders is in the wrong. Even other social animals like chimps have a code that values protecting their troop from murder. So it is natural to cooperate. Competition alone would wipe us out.
In my previous post, I said that perjury, murder, and stealing were the only relevant parts of the 10 Commandments that are against our laws today. Adultery isn't against the law. Most Christians don't obey much of the rest: The graven images and the Sabbath (which is not Sunday, the Lord's day, but Saturday), envying what others have, which is the American dream of being well off like our neighbor. Honoring our parents isn't a law, just good advice. Jealously being the only God allowed in our minds, and misusing God's name as a "word crime" is just bullying. Also, the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34 are completely ignored by Christians, yet they were written on tablets (after the first set was broken by Moses). There is no reason to follow religious commands especially when Christians don't obey them.
My point is, commands against perjury, murder, and stealing were in place long before the Bible said it. The rest is not going to serve us well. We need to coexist and learn to walk in the other person's shoes. Morality is about how we treat one another. It is about human relationships, not what any God wants.
He says he didn't lie, that he's posting to discuss, share how faith works for him. He's not mentioning previous threads. I don't get anymore, fellas, I think he really enjoys his ability to discuss on the thread. I'm not sure I understand the enjoyment quite yet. You have become tired of him, his discussion, or the repetition? A couple weeks back was my first visit back to the website and first to this thread, I have enjoyed several posts and turns in the topics, but if you are saying this discussion has lasted years I could see how it could be a drag for you. It might be time Anonymouse for you to spend time in another forum thread. You seem cool, but if this is a really huge bummer, it seems like you wouldn't be so involved. I think in some way you enjoy it or love to hate it?
JC - I wasn't aiming to evade, I just wasn't sure it was my question to answer, and I hadn't returned to the site to reply yet to Anonymouse's post. His request to me to "ask him why he lied" came after my introduction to the topic of why a lie cannot be defined on this site. I could have answered more quickly, but hope that helps there.
I think it is easy to see why the two smileys smashing each other come back to mind to me, even though you told me that "isn't the way it is"...as you mis-quoted me and called me out on a misuse of the word "thread" instead of what it should have been "post."...I felt the smashing smileys may have been turned on
Moving on, you were right on the misuse of word. I meant to say post. Thanks butterbattle for responding to my post, not thread. Now, what I asked was why you thought weekly blood tests were needed, and what you could do with them? That is what I asked, that is what you should have quoted and answered. You didn't answer weekly blood tests question that you have been talking about for as many posts as I am willing to read backwards on. I agree with you, blood tests for any chemical in your body are always recommended and promoted by doctors nationwide. However, I could understand if I was only taking 1/10th of the recommended dose of something, I wouldn't be real worried about having too high of a chemical level in my blood, or get the blood checked. Please, be sure to comment on your recommendation of weekly blood tests though.
Rebecca, I tend to agree that discussion often turns to arguing, especially with these topics and on this site. That must be why the smiley faces bashing themselves is still an optional smiley, while Anonymouse says that is not the way it is.
. I think in this forum, that is not as policed as much, it is meant to be Atheist vs Theist, "gloves off. I saw they have a killing them with kindness forum as well which may be more tamed down on that stuff or just nobody goes there. It could go either way, you said "you guys", but I want to challenge you that arrogance or being argumentative could come from either side, theist or atheist. I've met a lot of jerks in my life, probably more atheists or unbelieving jerks than theists, but there have been times when I felt like the counts were getting closer.
Butterbattle, the question or thread title is "It Works For Me." Why something works, why does faith in God work, why does faith in no God work. This is really a "perfect" question, if we are to win someone by lists. One way we could approach this would be to come up with a list of why faith in God works. Maybe 100 reasons why it works. Then turn around and you guys could come up with 100 reasons why faith in no God works. Now I am not sure either side could come up with 100 or not. This is similar to the method of the co-founder found in the main forum, the main post "theists answer these questions!" For example, thread owner has 150+ reasons or problems, arguments and questions that need to be answered by an all knowing theist before theism is proven as "good." Theists whose fingers wear thin from answering questions upon questions and underlying questions. Theists come back with Bible verses that "prove" (relative to the audience) their answer to the question or topic. Athiests don't believe the Bible, again it is a circular pattern and a windmill that keeps coming back around to the same thing.
So what do you really expect Anonymouse, do you expect another thread to be different?
So we could do the same thing on this thread. We could come up with lists of benefits of not having faith in God vs having faith in God. I would say over the past couple weeks the score is 1 to 1. Athiest vs Theist
1) Rebecca said now that she is not focused on the theist thing, she can "focus on real things." So that is why faith in no God works for her, or at least one example she gave. 1) Thread owner said "he is freed from his debt of sin," that's why faith in God works for him.
I just don't see how any atheist is going to understand the benefits and why God works for a theist while they have no faith in God at all. It just isn't possible, God himself and "salvation" is said to be through faith. If you don't have any faith, you are an atheist, you think and you know what works for you, but what works for a theist seems stupid or (been there tried that, no thanks). This just does seem like a tiring discussion Anonymouse, but I believe it is one you will consistently find in any thread in this Atheist vs Theist. There is one key ingredient that is lacking to make there be an opening/closure to the argument, it is faith, and atheists don't have any, and theists aren't often willing to abandon their faith. Therefore, roller coaster, windmill, whatever circular ride is your favorite. That is what this is.
Upside
*sigh*
I didn't mis-quote you. From post #2212, your words "I don't want to own a thread".
So you see, the smashing smileys are indeed inappropriate here.
Please, pretty please with sugar on top, kindly try to remember what you posted.
We already have a guy here who accuses us of stuff we didn't do, so we really don't need someone else to start doing that as well.
Please ?
...
Okay, I'll get to the rest of your stuff in a minute.
He did, and you showing up here has added even more weight to that. For pete's sake, you KNOW the thread is his.
What I want to know is why he keeps denying it.
Since he doesn't want to give us a straight and honest answer to this question, I was hoping you could ask him instead.
Maybe he only gives honest answers to christians ? I dunno, but it's worth a shot.
So, will you ask him ?
Do I have to beg ?
We're sick of being lied to , we're sick of being asked the same questions over and over again, only to read a few posts later that it never actually happened.
We're also sick of him constantly contradicting himself, his consistent dishonesty, his sometimes bizzare and erratic behaviour, and the threaths, yeah, we're sick of those too.
If I leave, he will simply keep on doing this. Having the same conversation, always pretending he never got any answers. People who never read the thread might believe him.
In short, if he was honest, I wouldn't be here. And all it takes for me to leave is one simple honest answer to a simple question.
Why is that so much to ask ? You managed it, so why can't he ? (these are not rethorical questions, btw)
I answered that question multiple times already. Please read the thread so I don't have to say that again. Pretty please without sarcasm.
But sure, I'll say it again : He needs more regular bloodtests because of his age. The risk is higher for the dosage to become unstable. Ask a psychiatrist to explain it to you, as you probably won't trust me.
You don't have to take my word for it. You can read the thread and find out for yourself.
The proof is there, you just don't seem to want to look at it.
I don't understand that. Can you please explain it to me ?
Or you could read the thread, and find out we've been there and done that. Everyone who engaged with Fonzie told him why it didn't work for them, and he seemed happy with that.......for a few posts, and then he just rebooted and started from scratch all over again.
How many times do we need to repeat the same things to him before he's satisfied ?
I'll gladly explain the same things we explained to Fonzie to you, but why, oh why are you so set to do it in his thread ?
What's the point of that ?
And if you really just want to ask the same questions, why not just go back and read the answers we already gave ?
(again, that's not a rethorical question)
So why are trying to make it even longer ? Just ask him the question. If he won't even give his friend an honest answer, well, then this is over.
No. And if you would like to verify that, I invite you to read a few other threads.
I'm not asking him to abandon his faith. I'm asking him to answer one simple little question honestly : Did he make the WHAT FAITH YOU thread ? You know he did. I know he did. He knows he did.
So why can't he answer that question honestly ?
As for the argument here, that was settled a long time ago.
He just didn't notice, or didn't care.
If faith worked for him, he wouldn't need to lie. But he did.
End of story.
I'll waste some time I guess.
Yes, I know; that's what you believe.
Okay, so you're begging the question.
i.e. you're a Christian.
i.e. Christianity makes your life feel balanced.
Atheism is just non-belief in any god(s). It does not directly motivate me to do anything good or bad.
Instincts + culture. I want to be good; ergo, I am.
I've always been non-religious. There is no 'before my atheism.'
That is already a misunderstanding. We do want to live good lives, but the emphasis is on what is true, not what is best for improving our lives. We don't believe in God because there is insufficient evidence to establish the existence of any God. Whether or not that has a positive influence on our life is irrelevant to why we are atheist.
You see, this is why you don't understand. You don't even possess the worldview that you possess, fundamentally, for the same reasons that we've used to establish our worldview. We judge claims and beliefs on the basis of whether they accurately portray reality; you evaluate ideas based on whether or not they make you feel good.
What do you mean by "perfect" question? What does "win someone by lists" mean?
Que?
Are we discussing truth or ethics?
I only need one reason to not believe in any claim and that reason is called: not enough evidence. Any appeal to the benefits of being religious is just an appeal to consequences, a red herring.
Reasons are immaterial without evidence anyways. If by "working," you mean that Christianity is good for people, then you need some actual objective research demonstrating that claim. As far as I know, the results are inconclusive at best.
What thread are you talking about? This?
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/66
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
to whit, each time he tries to get on with his life, the wholly ghost husks in his inner ear and drives him back to his seat in front of us.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
butterbattle,
I didn't mean the main reason for believing in Christ and His Atoning Death, being born anew in Him --- was improving life, but I can see how you got that impression from my clumsy description of it. The first thing was the consciousness of being guilty before God in the light of the death of His Only Begotten Son - but then all things have been made new and all of life has been made new in Him. I didn't mean to argue benefits or focus on that first like the "dollar bill gospel" or the "natural gospel". I wasn't aware of how great the results were going to be when I came to the gospel. I wanted my sins washed away. I knew I was guilty. I wanted salvation. The light of the gospel was clear. But the long range result has been astounding, beyond my wildest dream.
And you don't understand when you refer to my faith in God and Christ and my fellowship with Him in Spirit as a "FEELING". Sometimes I don't feel good at all - either in "feeling" - "feelings" or my "feel" for my view of myself; however even in that I have a anchored FAITH in Jesus and His Work of Salvation, His promises. The faith cuts through my feelings. It is a different thing, beyond myself. It is a different thing in myself as well. I don't know if I'm getting this across but this seems to be a thing that atheists can't get - the difference between faith and feeling.
But I do possess my worldview (as you refer to it), I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, and through faith I am totally conscious of that fact. I have fellowship with God and Christ in the Holy Spirit. The fact that it is not dependent on feelings makes it totally stable, not dependent on the "clouds and weather" of feelings, not dependent on batteries, it's anchored. But it is a fire I maintain, feeding it with the attention of spiritual things, watching for attacks of impurities, watching for things that would damage the eye of faith. But it's not feelings - and you and other atheists don't seem to get that.
You however mentioned "intuition and culture" being a basis for your guidance. That seems like it is in the "feelings" realm as far as intuition and the "polls" realm as far as culture. I don't think the "poll" of a bunch of ignorant people is worth much, for instance if that's what they are. I guess you determine that by "intuition"? It doesn't seem like a solid reality - like the reality you say your atheism is built on.
Debt? There's no debt. If one takes the message of the NT, they can see that debt has been paid for and all that remains is belief.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Colossians 2:13,14).
I have no sense of debt or guilt. I am living life as I will, the difference being I am willing to be conformed to His image instead of mine or anything the world wants to offer. Anyone wanting to do so become no different in reality than those who do not - they're just forgiven, no longer condemned, and can move forward. I suspect you feel the same AE - you have freedom - no?
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend.
Fonzie,
So...
First, you had to be convinced of your sins (which you likely had no knowledge of until someone told you).
Then you were emotionally bullied to kneel before an invisible being and (if you went to an evangelical church) were emotionally bullied more until you said the words that they (the bullies) were told God wanted to hear (by their emotional persecutors) where you had a cathartic moment.
After the catharsis, you were welcomed in by your emotional persecutors who suddenly became loving members of your extended "family of God". They tell you that you are forgiven and never have to worry about your life here and after you die. And if you ever do screw up and do what you've been bullied you into believing is sin, all you have to do is go through what you just went through until you get another cathartic moment.
This didn't seem to be enough so you've been self-medicating with lithium as well.
As for the "intuition and culture" that you're denigrating, you and other
Christians use both of these as well. The difference is that the intuition and culture you're using aren't your own - you chose to borrow themfrom ancient times.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
So even with your faith, you still don't feel good sometimes ?
So it doesn't always work then ?
Isn't that the beauty of having a savior-god myth?
The "I'm not perfect just forgiven" line is a classic. What they leave out is "Because I'm not perfect I can still do all those things that I got forgiveness for at first and get forgiveness every time!"
Once in a while, I think that I'd like to live like that. Then I realize that I have that pesky thing called morality that won't let me do that.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That's why he self-medicates.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
Actually you're completely wrong. The convincing happened when I was reading the Bible alone.
The worship services aren't pumped with emotion. Nobody bullied me - except your buddy. He doesn't bully me now - though he could always catch me off guard. I'm watching for him.
I did what I read about in the Scriptures. What I read is still there and hasn't changed. I called them to set up the baptism - they didn't call me.
I was welcomed before and after by brothers and sisters who have had similar experiences. And actually I repent every day, and yes, I am forgiven comparable to washing of feet (the complete bath has already taken place). There will be a need for repentance until death, and, I repeat again, and again, and again - I don't aim to ever sin on purpose. I hate sin. If you read this put a star in the margin.
Yes I take a little lithium, under the supervision of a family doc. I also have corrective lens. You know JcGadfly it's not a matter of the obstacles a person has but overcoming them. I haven't had any problems for over 35 years. I only mentioned the problem with the purpose of encouraging a guy with a problem. But you like to talk about that rather than how your atheism works I know. If you just want to talk all about the lithium thing go ahead. I thought I had answered that with references. Is that part of your intuition or your culture? We can have a complete discussion of bipolar if you want. I've studied it quite a bit. It's genetic you know - it's probably not what I would have chosen but as the Carol King song goes, "If it had been as I intended I wouldn't have the peace I know".
Yes, my feelings are involved in my relationship with Christ - they are just not the primary thing, the focus. One thing you learn with bipolar is not to put much stock in feelings (there's a springboard point for you).
I think the analogy works to imagine trying to build a house cutting every board by "feeling" rather than a definite ancient standard such as a "line" a measuring tool, a plumb. Plus, what about trying to build a house asking everybody up and down the street what they think about how to build it.
ADMINISTRATOR NOTE: Not a word here from JcGadfly about how atheism works for him. Only criticism of my explanation. Just reminding I'm here to discuss - giving reasons why Jesus "works for me" - asking how atheism "works for you". But here is what I have come to expect from JcGadfly. Rather than answer how he would use (for example) his intuition and culture to run his life he simply mocks, mischaracterizes and rants. So I've tried to answer his rants. But will he answer how his atheism works for him? Don't know.
Not complaining - just consider who is here to discuss and who is here to just insult and mock things given up, rejected, and not understood yet derided from a lofty perch when those making false claims of their discourse call for an end here.
Why has this thread been running for over 2 years?
Once more for forgetful Fonzie
Atheism works for me because it eliminates the need for the paranoid fear that is required in order to worship the Christian god. It works for me because I get benefit from helping others for its own sake without having to make sure that I raised my rating with Yahweh. I don't need an "attaboy" or a threat of punishment from a god to make myself useful to others in my environment.
I answered this question (what I get without God) in posts 175, 363, 402, 439, 442, 463, 466, 472 and 519.
I'm sure I could have gone farther but I only had the patience to go through 11 pages and this list includes some repetition of answers.
Feel free to tell me again how I never said anything about it.
Was there a particular reason you felt the need to lie about this?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
As you can see from my post above - Repeating things to a stubborn liar for your Lord makes for a long thread.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Note #? to Fonzie/meph : Will you PLEASE stop lying ? Seriously, why lie ? What does it get you ?
Why do keep saying you're here to "discuss" when there are literally hundereds of unanswered posts in your threads ?
And you actually have the unmitigated gall to accuse a guy who's been patiently answering all of your questions FOR OVER THREE YEARS, that he hasn't answered your question yet ? And that's not even the first time you tried that !
At least you used to have the decency to admit that you "sometimes forget" what's already been said, but now you don't even bother with that anymore.
(Btw, there is no "lofty perch". We all have a computer and a keyboard. That's it. No extras)
Enough.
Go away.
It can have genetic components, but someone without those can still get it.
As for your lithium problem, I will explain, again : It doesn't matter how much you take, you still need to have the bloodtests. When your body doesn't take in enough fluids and salt, lithium levels in your blood can still rise, no matter what dosage you take. Hence the need for regular bloodtests. And I don't use the word "need" lightly.
As for your memory problems....Well, it seems rather unlikely that your memory is that bad, but even if it was, you'd only need to read back a few pages, admit your mistake and apologise (as you have done before). But since you refuse to do that, the only conclusion you leave us is that you are dishonest and you like it that way.
You do realise how absurd it is to accuse people of not answering your questions, when anyone interested can simply check and notice that they already did that, several times ?
I've had to ask you that too many times already.
Just go away.
I had this really vivid dream last night (which indicates that you should not eat pizza before going to sleep).
Jesus appeared to me and said "And I say unto you, verily when the IT WORKS FOR ME passage gets to 2300, the end times draw near. I have foretold that cold weather will be upon the land and characters from the Happy Days TV series shall emerge, verily I say unto you, the hour of 2300 is at hand. It shall go forth, into the land of the trollville, where their will be wailing and grinding of teeth of the theist who comes in my name forever, for he is not of my father, the father does not allow circular talks, whosoever talks to the nonbelievers in circular talk shall be cast out".
I woke up this morning with indigestion and frost on the window and a thread that is close to 2300 posts. This PROVES that the prophecy draws near.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
(NOTES FROM POSTS MENTIONED)
You have peace of mind, lack of worry, full assurance, happiness in an equal relationship with your wife, no worries about death. You didn't have these when you were a Christian, even considering the ministry. In fact, you never had the peace of mind the Bible talks about when a Christian, right? It was a "load" of guilt for you. You say I've created my own God and practice a "cafeteria style" Christianity, piecing together the parts of the Bible I like. And you say I don't think you ever were a Christian because you didn't do it exactly the way I have. Your road starts in reality and ends in death, And while you are on the road you want to help as many fellow travelers as you can. You would bet money I have never read the Bible and would take joy in you burning in hell. I've ignored how you told me you live to help others while I sit and think about my heavenly home and that new body I'll get for flattering God. And maybe it is the wrong God. I'm a poor baby too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good. You used to dream of committing suicide every night so you could have a peaceful sleep when you were a servant of God considering the ministry. You felt completely worthless because of a belief you were nothing without God while simultaneously telling people you were better than they were because you worship God the "right way" (as in me according to you). And you live your life knowing you don't need an invisible magic man to experience the joy you are experiencing now. You never experienced God's presence or you would still be a believer - not emotions but the "peace that passes understanding" promised the believer. Death holds no terror because it's inevitable. You live life to help others and to be the most use to others. My only focus (according to you) is getting myself to heaven and bragging about the trip. And you hope I won't be too disappointed when (according to you) I meet you in some other god's hell because I guessed the wrong one. And if there is a God you know where you'll be - but do I? Atheism works for you because it eliminates the paranoid fear required to worship the Christian God and you get benefit from helping others just for the sake of helping others without having to be concerned about raising your rating with God. (END OF NOTES)
Jc,
From my side I haven't lied about this question any more than I have never answered your questions to you. We are sending messages from two different worlds.
When you describe your bad experience with faith in Jesus it is a different world than mine. You admit you were lying to others when a Christian? You set it up as you experienced it then condemn your "set" - but it's not the world I am in.
You describe your impression of my attitude then condemn that - but, again, that's not my attitude.
Your answer about how atheism helps seems like just peace in denial. Just being honest.
Your stated purpose of helping others is kind of hard to separate from your anger toward your bad experience with Christianity. Also your joy is hard to see when you are addressing your bad experience with Christianity. I can relate to some of that anger, because at some points Christianity was a bad experience for me - but it was because of some false teaching or wrong understanding throwing a wrench in it.
I'm not the only one that has forgotten posts. I have said I don't want anybody to burn in hell - but all to be saved. I've also said I don't consider myself better than anybody on this forum. You probably have trouble believing that though - since you don't have any faith in me or my integrity.
This was the misquote, here, below
. You only quoted half of my sentence. This changed the meaning of what I said. I was talking about your reference to weekly blood tests. Of course google gets lots of hits on blood tests, but not for weekly. You still haven't answered the weekly blood question, you keep dancing, saying "more often" or "often." Seems funny to argue it, but you are dancing and I can't get a straight answer to that question then why answer the 50+ questions you had for me? Debates should be simpler. There should be a blackboard (scoreboard for each side and a way to unbiased organization of points made), not memorization of entire posts and re-reading through all these posts. Crazy.
I think starting a new thread would be a good idea, I may do that actually. That is if I don't go to trollville. Harley keeps talking about trollville, i'm guessing this is banished theists. What are the requirements, why banish anyone, a thread is a thread, people come and they go?
Upside
Fonzie,
Do I need to have faith in your integrity when I have a Bible filled with examples of God's lack of it?
I am happier at least that you did not deny (once again) that I answered your questions many times. It may seem like peace in denial to you but at least it comes from myself alone. I didn't have to borrow an ancient story written by people whose lives were harder than we could imagine and needed something positive on which to attach their hopes. It seems incongruous to me that you talk about how good your life is with Jesus now when that was never the writer's intent. Is the good in your life completely attributed to Jesus? You and the other humans around you do nothing to contribute to it? If the latter is truly the case then I feel sorry for you (and will likely continue to do so despite your protestations).
Yes, I succumbed to the peer pressure and found it easier to lie to others about being a Christian. At the time, I valued their friendship more than my sanity. Later I realized that they valued my religion and my churchgoing more than my friendship. They still do. Is it a Christian thing to only like people as long as they conform to their thought and religious processes?
You would probably never see my joy outwardly. I'm not a person who does a bombastic outward display every time I feel emotions. When you would expect a full "blissed-out" expression, I might give you a small smile. It doesn't mean I'm not feeling it. It also doesn't mean that I have to feel it according to your scorecard.
That is the other issue that people have with you - you have a tendency to judge others using your experience with God as the standard.
All that anyone has is impressions of a person's attitude (particularly on the internet). You have given us an impression that you believe all atheists hate God, love doing bad things and have Satan as our constant running buddy. It's hard to take that impression and believe also that you and God love us and want us to spend forever in heaven.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That's not a misquote, it's a partial quote. Anyone who wants to can go and read the whole thing.
So no, I didn't misquote you. Kindly don't accuse people of things they didn't do. Thanks.
Sorry, I keep hoping people who jump in here would have the common courtesy to read enough of the thread to know what's going on here.
I hope in vain, it seems
.
Well, since I don't hear you disagreeing that bloodtests are necessary, I'll explain where the weekly comes from : In my experience, it's the minimum time an average lab will keep you waiting for the results, so when you start on the meds (and he hasn't had any bloodtests at all) your blood would need to be tested as regularly as possible, which would mean once a week.
Any more questions ?
I'll keep in mind that you don't seem to want to read the thread, and will adapt my answers accordingly.
If you don't want to answer my questions, you don't have to.
No kidding. If your buddy was an honest guy, this thread would be about 3 pages. Alas...
Actually, getting sent to Trollville is very, very, verrrrry difficult. The last fellow who got banned here had to make some rather disgusting remarks about the child of one of our members before banishment was even considered.
As your friend keeps demonstrating, theists are allowed to lie, and to dodge questions for years. Literally for years.
So yeah, go nuts. It's a theist's paradise.
Like I said, ask a shrink.
Merely injecting sarcasm and humor into the situation. This is not the only thread that has a very large amount of responses.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
So you admit you forgot again.
Okay, then next time you accuse atheist in general, or someone in particular, of not having answered your questions or adressed your arguments, kindly check to see if that's true before you say it is.
It only takes reading.
And it saves a lot of unecessary repeats.
Jc,
I have met and got along fine with atheists - ate with them, poured concrete with them. I think that would probably be true with us face to face. One reason is if you were around me you would feel no pressure to lie or conform. I have no "need" to convert anybody, nor do I see it as healthy for a person to be anything other than himself. If the LORD changes the "himself" part of that then the principle would still hold - a person wouldn't be faking it because the change was within.
I have had some bad experiences myself similar to yours with people trying to manipulate me. I have had bad experiences with the medical profession. And I've probably been a bad experience many times for other people. I don't aim for that to be the case in the future.
I'm going to try to get comfortable with you and just let the mistakes fly - not sure I can, but I'm going to try. I know I have this label on me here that represents a bad experience to you. But it hasn't been with me personally. Just view me as a guy you're helping along your journey of life. I don't think that I'm any better or more valuable than you.
I don't understand what you mean by me saying my life is good with Jesus now when that wasn't the writer's intent??? I don't get that question. The next one - do I attribute all to Jesus - that is a resounding yes. As far as others around me, Jesus lives in them too, so Jesus is the source with them.
Understand that the fact that all my faith is in Jesus' atoning death frees me from feeling the need to pressure you or do good deeds which you characterize as "flattering God". The irony is, that being freed from that makes the whole response to God's gift refreshing rather than being tainted with the unhealthy things you mentioned. Rather than make for less, it makes for more.
Rather than go on I'd like to hear what you say about this because I don't think I understood the "writer's intent" thing.
Then why do you feel the need to compare people here to insects, tell them it would be better they hadn't been born at all, tell them to "believe in jesus or die", tell them they're in league with all kinds of evil supernatural forces, etc...
And why accuse them of never having answered your questions when they just spend three years answering the same ones over and over again ?
And why did you register again after you got the trollbadge ?
None of that seems very healthy.
Seriously, what's the use of all these repeats when you can just go back and read it all again ?
What mistakes are that then ?
Did he falsely accuse you of not answering his questions ? Oh wait, no, that was you, wasn't it ?
Did you forget already ??
Well, you seem to be very comfortable with your own consistent dishonesty, so anyone else's imagined "mistakes" should be no problem.
You have no "label" here. You have your threads, your posts, and you are personally responsible for those.
Okay, at least you're acknowledging he's trying to help you. That's progress. Good.
And yet you believe you're going to heaven, and we're going to hell.
So according to you, that selection isn't based on anything good or valuable ?
Once he explains it to you, for how long are you planning to remember it, and how many times are you planning to make him repeat it in the coming years ?
Considering your behaviour these last three years, that's a fair question.