It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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He's not talking to god. He's talking to you.
Pointing out your poor knowledge of the bible does not equal "having an arrogant attitude toward god".
?
He's pointed out an obvious mistake in your interpretation of the bible, provided the proof, and instead of acknowledging that, you accuse him of having an "attitude" and you tag on a little threat at the end.
He said you'd ignore those passages, and he was right.
He quoted the bible. You, on the other hand, ignored it.
The only one making a claim to godhood is you, since you can't distinguish between someone criticising you, and someone criticising god.
If you really believe god is god and not "Fonzie", then read what JC actually posts for a change, and stop accusing people of "having an arrogant attitude towards god" when they catch you making a mistake.
Sure, when "Fonzie" forgets to read the bible and makes a claim about it anyway, it's not "Fonzie"'s fault.
It's JC's fault.
You just said how it happened : god did it.
And here's what you said earlier on the same subject :
And there we have it.
Once again, proof of your incredible dishonesty.
You lie to our face, and when you get caught, you blame us for it.
This from a man who sees his god in the mirror every morning. If Pharoah and I would have to cross single file, we'd have to stay 10 steps behind you.
It must gall you to realize that there are people who:
1. Know the Bible better than you.
2. Don't start conversations with you with "You're so right <your name here>. I've never thought of it like that before."
Or does it frighten you more than offend you?
As for your attempted potter and the clay analogy - you compare more to the executive who tells the potter in his employ how he wants it done and pushes him aside when the clay is not molded to his satisfaction to do the job himself (despite his lack of knowledge and artistic sense).
I hate to burst your bubble but God isn't you either. It doesn't matter how offended you get when I use the words from what you believe is his book to prove your position wrong - that won't change. You might understand that better if you'd read the book instead of making substitutions in it.
There are small positives here, though. You did break down and admit that your view of God comes down to "Might makes right" and that you like it fine. That bit of honesty is refreshing even if it is based on a belief that God agrees with you 100% and would never dare do anything to correct you.
As for why God did it - again, it is refreshing to see you admit that God is machiavellian enough to use whatever means he desires to justify his desired end (which is total unquestioning subservience to him). But that doesn't apply to you, does it? God loves you and you deal with him on a level even higher than that of other believers, right?
As More wrote in "Utopia", "Service is but one syllable less than servitude." Where do you think you are with God, fonzie? Service, servitude, co-regency or perhaps even sole rule?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
You're not God and I'm not God, that's for sure.
The Scripture I was answering your question about Pharaoh and his heart getting hardened from was of course:
Romans 9.14, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not upon man's will or exertion but upon God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing My power in you, so that My Name may be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy upon whomever He wills, and He hardens the heart of Whomever He wills.
You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its Molder, 'Why have You made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? ...."
As to the question where am I with God. I was His enemy - in Christ He has made me His son. Eternally grateful is my position with God.
The difference being, he will never equal someone questioning him with someone questioning god.
You, on the other hand, can't seem to stop doing that.
Then you concede his point.
Took you long enough.
I'm pretty sure that was a rethorical question. After all these years, we know exactly where you are with god.
As does anyone who can read.
Actually, I just wanted to show that his claimed relationship of being God's son and Jesus' love slave is more like the Stockholm and Battered Spouse Syndromes than any kind of normal relationship.
As often as he claims godhead, it makes me wonder who the victim really is.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Harley,
One of God's promises is if you believe in Jesus you will never die. Hebrews 12.1 says, "Therefore since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."
So, we are likely in the eternal unseen universe amphitheater with Abraham Isaac and Jacob (and all) watching us on ultra comfortable air seats. How are you looking there Harley?
Nobody ever thinks about what eternal life would actually mean. You'd go stark raving buggo after the first 200 years.
Of course they're watching us. The poor bastards have nothing else to do.
If they can read from up there, he's looking a lot better than you.
Fonzie,
It takes a lot of pride to compare yourself with those folk (then again, you think you're God...).
They actually had to obey the words of God. You know, DO something. It sure was nice of Paul to get rid of sin and the need for actual obedience, wasn't it? All you have to do is say you believe - you don't have to live it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Anonymouse,
Don't worry, they're getting a big laugh out of you Anonymouse.
And they're weeping at seeing your work in their names Fonzie.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
How am I looking in terms of what ? Eternal life ? I do not believe that there is such a thing.
Look, it is perfectly natural to wish for the opportunity to live forever and ever. It is almost genetically hardwired into us. It even stretches all the way back to the Neanderthals. Burial sites of even those primitive tribespeople reveal alars of worship and burial customs of a type (If you take the time to put down the Bible for a moment, go read Why God Won't Go Away by Andrew Newberg, The God part of the Brain by Mathew Alper just for starting points).
Human awareness in the earliest of times lead primitve people to question their origins. Human awareness lead to understanding of mortality and the possibility of the end of life. People created gods and religion to explain the mysteries of the world around them, people created beliefs in the afterlife to make some peace with the uncertainties and cruelties of this life. It is a biological function of the brain to try and discern some "MEANING" into everything.
It's no big mystery. It's perfectly natural to "feel" like there has to be some sort of ultimate purpose or some god intervening in our everyday affairs and keeping us at the forefront of his mind. But that is all that it is, just a feeling.
When you realize the science behind all of these things, it's easy to understand. We have a greater understanding of those things now than we once did.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
They are all up there taking bets and gambling. LOL
Issac : Hey Abe, I got twenty that says he won't get saved.
Abraham : I give five to one odds that he ends up in hell, what do you say ?
Isaac : Yeah why not, we can't spend any of this money anyway and we have only got another couple of hundred thousand years of humanity to gamble on.
Jacob : Anyone in the mood for a wine run ?
Isaac : Nah, just see Jesus, he'll touch some water cups and give us a refill.
Jacob : I am gonna up the odds and say 30 to 1 odds he makes it to Heaven, anyone want in ?
God : Place your bet dudes, it's almost time for guess which government falls apart next.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Lol, not allowed to gamble in heaven. It's sinful and stuff.
Still, it's interesting they're up there, hanging out with god, but they'd rather look at me.
Seems I'm more interesting than god.
Yay !
Lol, I guess god plays the role of the house and takes a cut since he can't actually bet. After all, being all knowing it wouldn't be fair for him to bet.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Harley,
Ah, the casualness of it all in the light of Mathew Alper! and Andrew Newberg!. If you don't believe it .... well....then it's simply not true! And jcgadfly with Thomas More's "Utopia". I don't know how it is that you guys reject the Word of God and instead latch on to some guy who wrote some book, yes, Harley you are truly playing the Powerball eternal life lottery and you are putting it all in the pot (including pink slips on your Sportster). It's like staking your fortune on the advice of uncle Louie.
Or maybe it's more like the woman talking to the wired horse on candid camera - and the horse tells her to put 50$ on Apocalypse in the third (then she asks the horse how to spell Apocalypse). You guys truly are tip - getters and spiritual gamblers of the deepest dye.
There is a difference between "truths" and "The Truth" of God. True there are math truths, music truths, chemistry, astrological, genealogical and historical, hydraulic, physics, electronic truths blah blah blah - and no doubt angels know all about all these and are totally bored with them. But - The Truth - God's mystery of salvation in Christ makes all of these other truths as boring as anonymouse's quote chopper.
Sure it's true people have made up false gods - and you guys carry their water but so what? Maybe it is a truth that man has a "void", a "need" for something that you would say results in conceived error. You could also say appetite could result in eating something that seems sweet but actually is poison - but that doesn't mean there isn't such a thing as good food or a Good God who will fill that void like nothing else can, the bread of life, and the water of life.
I'm surprised you aren't interested in the mystery of God being manifest in human form/ rejected in the flesh but justified by the Spirit with signs, wonders and resurrection from the dead. This mystery angels longed to look into - not Mathew Alper's book, not Thomas More's Utopia. You guys keep up and you're going to find out what boring really is..................and it's not a million years of Lawrence Welk.
You are rejecting the mystery of the most exciting Lamb of God - whose blood is posted as proof a substitute death (of God's choosing) has occurred, and whose roasted flesh (not watered down by boiling) not only makes us secure but nourishes us, we eat it - all (not just pick and choose) - now - all of Christ is applied to what's at hand in the present and in His presence, and we don't chew on the leaven of trusting in ourselves or books by Thomas More or Newberg or whatever, or ceremonies or our own feelings or imaginations - the clock is reset and we're running on new time, we don't go back to finish bricks, we have charted our course and it ain't a boring cruise on Darwin's Beagle with a bunch of old men standing around picking their nose thinking they have figured it out. How can you swallow their pickings?
Fonzie, pulling a fitting quote is not the same as blindly living by a book.
It also shows we've read other books (some of those that would scare you as bad as that Bible you claim to love but have never looked at).
I also enjoy reading how you talk about false gods but don't dare entertain the possibility that your God might be included. I guess that's what happens when you take the word of what someone says about the Bible.
I'm not interested in leaving mysteries as mysteries - that leads people to stop thinking. It's part of that knowledge thing that God didn't want man to have in the Garden of Eden.
Your lamb of god mystery is just gross. Why your God felt the need to incarnate himself and get battered and bloodied simply to fix a situation he set up in the first place smacks more of masochism than redemption.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yeah, I remember the last time someone here suggested you might be helped by reading a book :
The guy said, tell you what, you read one of ours, and I'll read one of yours.
Sure, you said.
He read yours.
You lied and didn't read ours.
Ah, the casualness of "Fonzie"'s dishonesty.
If you bother to read his post, you'll find that's pretty much the opposite of what he's actually saying.
But hey, who cares, right ?
Lol ! Ah, the casualness of blind irony.
His uncle Louie's an investment banker.
Ka-ching !
One of the many, painfully obvious differences being, you're going on about books you haven't read. We, on the other hand, have read your book.
You don't really think about these analogies of yours, do you ?
And there's a difference between your "truth of god", and every single other christian's "truth of god", and your "truth of god" from a few posts ago, and a few posts in the future.
Yeah, imagination is awesome.
(Btw, me responding to every single thing you say still gets on your nerves ?? Might as well admit you don't like your sermons being interrupted)
Uhm, we kinda treat all "gods" the same here. They have to carry their own stuff.
You wouldn't have noticed that, since you don't get out of your own thread much. (Not that you notice much in here either)
People such as yourself seem to strongly suggest otherwise. It's as simple as that.
Oh, just come right out and threaten us again, you pussy.
You believe it, so why be coy ?
Go on, I devil dog dare ya.
Nope, I'm rejecting YOU. More specifically, your lies
You still don't get the difference.
One more time : YOU ARE NOT THE "LAMB OF GOD".
"Roasted flesh" ?????????????
Boy, those people writing books you're never gonna read , they really seem to get on your nerves.
Yeah, we got your contempt for science the first time. We were very impressed by it.
(It would seem you're still smarting from the spanking Deludedgod gave you on that subject about three years ago )
Anyway, so, why did you lie to us ? Still wondering. Well, I know why, of course. I was just wondering if you even cared. Apparently not.
Um, it's actually not about "some guy" writing a book and I just fell for it. There is a substantial body of work that points in this direction. I only named those two books, because those are the easiest to begin the subject with.
I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
It's going to be rather hard to prove that, since god's truth exists outside of space, time and logic and is only communicated to us through obscure texts that no one can agree on the ultimate meanings of, not exactly a good formula to claim "truth" by. Matter of fact, if something supposedly exists outside of space, time and logic and books written by MEN are the only source for getting to it, that would hint to me that it does not exist and is a byproduct of superstition and wishful thinking.
The fact that you acknowledge the existence of so many different god beliefs, including your own, would indicate that god is a construct of the human mind. Think about it like this, many cultures believe that they have some gateway to some spiritual realm, an existence of eternal life and an ultimate judge that guides them along the way.
But all of them have widely different ideas of what the "creator/spirit/god" is. If there were truly only "One True Creator/God" why didn't he give everyone the same exact myth ? Why didn't he send them all the same exact sacred text that would be identical for everyone all the way across the board ?
There's your mistake. I don't "swallow the pickings" of a few writers as absolutes. It's about mountains and mountains of evidence that point towards the accuracy of their information.
Almost all of the scientific community agrees upon the Big Bang Theory and evolution for instance. These are scientists from different backgrounds, with different cultures and histories, all independently examining the evidence. Everytime that new evidence arises, it further points to the theory of evolution. I don't have "faith" in evolution. The evidence speaks for itself.
I actually was interested in the mystery of god for a number of years. I have said that on other threads.
I was raised in an extremely religious home and spent all of my childhood and part of my adulthood being deeply religious.
When I abandoned all of that, I drifted through a whole bunch of bunk New Age spritual but not religious mumbo-jumbo garbage. I "needed" to believe that "something" was beyond reality. But at the bottom of it all , just like religion, there were no answers. There was just lost people wishfully hoping for some big spiritual mystery like I was. I never found anything that pointed to a "God/Creator/Energy Force" or any of that stuff.
Took me a long time to realize that science could answer far more questions about my uncertainties than any spiritual stuff.
What's a few myths about fiery chariots in the sky when you have the Hubble Telescope to peer into the unknown ?
What's a few stories about "sin" when you have psychological and chemical causes for people's problems ?
What's the use of filling up the "need to fit in feeling " with god, when you can look at the maps of the brain and attempt to understand it's workings ?
I am surprised that you are rejecting the mystery and the wonder of science for faith.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
HOLY SHIT! From the last time I was on here there has been 65 comments made on this thread. Fonzie is an attention whore.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
WTF? Leave people to believe they're own thing? You are on an atheist site, duh! Also, learn how to spell. I really don't take seriously anything you say when you can't even spell.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Don't you know? "Leave people to believe their own thing" is code for "Atheists, you're not allowed to attack Christian arguments or defend your positon agains Christians - you just have to sit there and take it because it's for your own good".
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Oh yeah! I forgot, I'm evil so I should keep my mouth shut lol.
I love how he says we make fun of christians because they are against doing things that are bad
Does he watch the news? Probably to busy texting all the time judging by the way he writes.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Christians can't do bad things - what they do is ordained by God and they're washed in the blood of Jesus (no matter how dastardly the act).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Right? It's only ok to do things that people view as bad if god/jesus tells them it's ok.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Pretty much the size of it I fear.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yeah, me too.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Rebecca,
It's great you stopped by to elevate the literacy level and point us "Toward More Picturesque Speech"!
Her honest speech trumps your homilies about how God simultaneously loves us and wants to destroy us.
It reminds me of a husband telling his wife how much he loves her while he is caving her head in with a baseball bat.
"Towards More Picturesque Speech" - nice Reader's Digest reference. Do you read from their condensed version of the Bible?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Oh Fonzie, They are just words
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Harley,
That's one of the things Job cried out for - to have an audience with God, also to have an intercessor.
"Great indeed we confess is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."
God clothed Himself in the weakness of human flesh to communicate Truth to us in the person of Christ. He is the embodiment of Truth - He is Living Truth. We have His Spirit as a guarantee and a seal of our son-ship. Being reborn in His Son He has drawn us near and written His Law on our hearts.
We also have in Him the Intercessor Job cried out for - Christ not only in us but at the right hand of the Father interceding for us.
The proof you call for is held fortified by a clear conscience in those God reveals the mystery of the faith to and enables to hold and defend it in the strength of the Holy Ghost.
I don't believe God would refuse revealing the mystery of the faith to anyone who cries out for insight, raises their voice for understanding, seeks it like silver and searches for it like hidden treasures. I'm confident if anyone did this they would understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. They would be delivered from the way of evil and men of perverted speech who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil.
As also a great side benefit that man would also be saved from the loose woman who forgets the covenant of her God, whose house sinks down to death and whose paths to the shades.
The people of God now partake of the Lamb of God with bitter herbs, but they will be delivered. The upright will inherit the land and men of integrity will remain in it; but the wicked will be cut off from the land and the treacherous rooted out of it.
And when you think about it, that was a horrifically cruel thing for god to do to Job wouldn't you agree ? Like asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, just to see if he would do it. God and the devil just made a bet over a man's life and God ok'd it for the devil to just screw up Job as bad as possible just to see how his faith would go ? Pretty mean of god to play with his subjects like chess pieces.
So god has an inability to love or forgive us on his own ? Are you saying that he was so utterly incapable of forgiving people for the very nature that he gave to them that he had to create a son to intercede for us ? Even worse, his son does not intercede for all of us, only the ones that follow. Forgiveness and love are quite conditional in the eyes of god it seems. They are only forgiven and loved so long as they do what he wants. A bit of a tyrannical attitude if you ask me.
God made a bunch of humans to act like like humans by their nature, but he did not want them to act like humans with their nature, so when they acted like humans with their nature, he punishes them for acting like humans with their nature ? Confusing.
In all of my years of praying and searching and attending church, I never received one sign. I never received any comfort. I only got the reinforcement that I was somehow inherently sinful and needing to pray and deny myself more and more in the hope of something.
But I love loose women. I do not want to be saved from loose women. Why would god create something as wonderful as woman and tell us that it is wrong to like women ?
When is that supposed to happen ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
No, I wouldn't agree. Every great eternal story of the Scriptures has suffering with it - unless you can come up with an example of one that doesn't. God is God, dwells in the heavens (but His home is in His church) and does what He pleases. We would never have known what Job was capable of unless God had allowed him to be tested. He won an eternal name for himself and put the devil to open shame and defeat - plus God gave him twice as much later. We part ways at confidence (mine) and no confidence (yours) in God. I have no doubts everything God does is eternally right. You have an attitude of the pot asking the potter, "Why are you making me like this?" I'm not saying I am above you or more important than you or smarter than you - just commenting on the fact that we part ways right at the first.
God has an order to the universe that has severe justice - sin is serious, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Yet, God wants to forgive us - so He has provided the Lamb He will accept - His Own Son. Behold the kindness and severity of God.
You are right in stating that everybody won't be saved. The tragedy will be those who know as much as you yet reject God's Gift of Righteousness in His Son. You are like the guy at the marriage feast who refuses the marriage garment (Christ) and later gets thrown out. I don't say this with any joy but rather the faithful wounds of a friend rather than the kisses of an enemy.
Martin Luther had a similar experience doing things to give himself pain trying to be acceptable to God - then he was awakened to the good news (the real good news which is hidden by a lot of muddy water and devil static) - that Salvation is all God's work. When it dawns on you that Salvation is by grace and is God's Gift in Christ received by faith - and are "born anew" into Christ and receive the gift (guarantee) of the Holy Spirit (and the presence of God & Christ 24/7, not a small thing) - then God draws you near and perfect love casts out fear. Walking with God by faith is great, exciting - it's not a guilt trip or fueled by guilt. This is a refreshing difference from what you experienced. I went through that too until I broke through the lies about it.
Woman is great I agree - but again there is an order to the universe. You may think you want a loose woman, but in the end she is bitter as wormwood. The wise woman may seem like the dull choice on the surface, but she will just get more and more beautiful as time goes on. You'll have buyer's remorse with the loose one. The Scripture says the husband/wife relationship represents Christ and the church. There is a need/challenge to stay focused on Christ and God just like the need/challenge to stay focused on your wife with all the so-called glittering distractions. Guarding your heart is a full time boxing match even though you won't have fame for your everyday fights God sees. In the same way as temptations to distract the heart from your wife there are all kinds of distraction temptations, tests away from God. You have to guard the flame of faith which is our connection to God. But God helps us, and I think the Holy Ghost plays the part of our trainer.
Nobody knows Harley. If anybody says they do you know right away they are a fake - Scripture says nobody knows. I don't really know where I'm going - I've never been there before. The course I've charted is simple though - stay close to God and Christ and God's people. Wherever they go that's where I will go.