It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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I have another question. If this represents what atheists have that is "better" than the gospel - how do you apply it? So you think you are on to something about the way the fireworks were set off - how does it apply to today? If you consider the BBT better than the gospel and Scripture it has to (not explain back radiation and the age of Quasars) but it has to be relative to this life better than the Scriptures. It has to explain for instance man's relationship to his Creator and how man connects up with his Creator.
The Big Bang Theory is simply the scientific understanding of how our current galaxy was formed. That is really all that the Big Bang does, it gives me clues about the formation of our planets, how many years our planet was here before ecosystems and things began to form, that sort of thing.
If your asking me for scientific explanations as to how man formed the notion of god and why mankind feels compelled to worship god, I briefly addressed that a few posts back. That is not in direct connection to the actual big bang, that is a question that belongs in anthropology, psychology, archaeology, and neuroscience. That is question about the evolutionary traits of human thought, not about the universe being formed.
The Big Bang in of itself can not DO anything for me. How could it ? The universe did not get formed with the intention of my birth in it's mind. I find it hysterically funny that you think that scientific evidence for the Big Bang is supposed to DO something for me.
There really is not an atheistic worldview. What am I offering you ? Hmm, what are you really looking for ? The only thing I can offer you is reality as we know it.
I can't give you the Big Bang and tell you that it is going to give you a paradise. But religion can only promise you these things, it does not mean that the promises are true. What if I offered you ocean front property in Arizona with all of the taxes and the utilities paid for the next twenty years ? It may sound good, but it does not mean that it would be a true offer.
How does it apply to day ? It applies to ALOT when it comes to physics and Einsteins theories about an ever expanding universe, M-Theory, all sorts of scientific theories have sprang forth about the evidence of the Big Bang. There is a whole lot of info. If you wish to get into the territory of physics, it is there. Physics can offer you all sorts of clues about motion, about light, about particles, about neurons and photons and reality. Physics can quite simply change the way that you perceive the world.But only if you wish to find out more about it.
As we are rocketing through space your BBT has to explain where it is that we are going and how to prepare better than Scripture - which explains our Creator didn't hold on to Heaven, but clothed Himself in flesh to redeem us. In order to be better your BBT has to rescue us from our lifelong bondage to the fear of death. How does it do that - I don't get it from the video.
Again, rocketing through space and how our universe is ever changing is something for the realm of astronomy and physics.
Sorry I can not offer you removal of the fear of death nor can I offer eternal life through science. But religion only promises and offers, it can not truly guarantee those things beyond a shadow of all reasonable doubt, otherwise it would not require faith.
Again, my purpose on this thread is my statement that Christianity and the Bible and the gospel "Works for Me" - and I asked if you atheists have something better. If this is it - please tell me how it applies instead of just fascinates. Don't worry about insulting me in your application. I needed a dumbed-down version. I haven't spent years in the science temple.
Again if your looking for eternal life and spiritual realms, I can't offer that. But Christianity again is only offering and not giving.
But, since the idea of understanding the workings of our world, the universe, human psychology, evolutionary traits and such seems to be so much more of a better pursuit of knowledge than the belief in something for which there is no evidence, I would think that science has much more to offer, because it offers reality.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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You don't need years in the "science temple" to understand the difference between a religion and a scientific theory.
A dictionary should do.
Where is the science temple located ?
I heard there was one in every state, where groups of Atheists secretly believe in god and create fake DNA strands and fossils to throw the creationists off and light candles to Charles Darwin, but I haven't found it yet.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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Again, my purpose on this thread is my statement that Christianity and the Bible and the gospel "Works for Me" - and I asked if you atheists have something better. If this is it - please tell me how it applies instead of just fascinates. Don't worry about insulting me in your application. I needed a dumbed-down version. I haven't spent years in the science temple.
Ok Fonzie, in a very simple form, here is what Atheism has to offer. The name of the video is even, What Atheism has to offer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_V9iuqCpfk&feature=fvw
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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Offline I've been to a science temple, Fonzie. Atheists from the surrounding area make a pilgrimage there once in a while to pray to evolution. During worship, we consume bread and wine, which transubstantiates into the blood and body of Charles Darwin. We also pay a tithe to the Richard Dawkins foundation.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline Fonzie wrote:
Again, my purpose on this thread is my statement that Christianity and the Bible and the gospel "Works for Me" - and I asked if you atheists have something better. If this is it - please tell me how it applies instead of just fascinates. Don't worry about insulting me in your application. I needed a dumbed-down version. I haven't spent years in the science temple.
Ok Fonzie, in a very simple form, here is what Atheism has to offer. The name of the video is even, What Atheism has to offer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_V9iuqCpfk&feature=fvw
Harley,
I just watched the video linked here, favorited it, and subscribed. That was interesting. Is there any part of the video you don't agree with? There's nothing in the video that touches what I have in Christ. I came to the same futility with religion - which is trust in some form of what man does that he thinks is spiritually valuable. Jesus had the same disdain for religion (rightly defined) - 'woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you do this and this and it's not worth...."
I was reading again in Job this morning about the problem man has with the impossible challenge of finding wisdom and understanding. Man can travel far, put an end to darkness, turn mountains upside down, swing to and fro in a lonely place, find the jewels and dust of gold in the earth (find everything else) - but (like Job's friends) can't find the Way to what Job has inside his stronghold - fortified in a clear conscience; which is, the fear of the LORD and departing from evil. The three friends of Job are standing on their false religion and feelings - which feelings happen to be going unchallenged at the moment, while Job's connection with God - faith held in a clear conscience - is well and alive though he has been stripped of all good feelings, all comforts, any production of man's religion, any trust in providence and or any acknowledgment or favor of man.
It is fascinating to see what scientists do with what I would have to call an investment of worship of things created. And it's interesting that man can detect the emptiness of what sets itself up to be true religion, clothes itself in a false cloak, maybe greed, maybe desire for praise of men, maybe self deception - but know it is an empty false religion. This is a tribute to the spiritual nature of man. The emptiness can also be detected in science, anthropology, psychology, archeology, and neuroscience. I have conducted this search too, and though I didn't spend as much time on science, etc, I have spent a lot of time sorting out false religion and I have not accepted false religion either; however I have gone on and found the Way, the Truth and the Life - it's all in Christ.
What I have found is the Top Pearl. Show me a better pearl and I will trade up for it.
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Offline Show me a better pearl and I will trade up for it.
Reality.
Both Harely's reply and the video he linked showed it to you. As have countless of other people in your threads.
You ignored them all.
You keep asking the same questions, but you're not even remotely interested in the answers.
Enough.
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Offline I've been to a science temple, Fonzie. Atheists from the surrounding area make a pilgrimage there once in a while to pray to evolution. During worship, we consume bread and wine, which transubstantiates into the blood and body of Charles Darwin. We also pay a tithe to the Richard Dawkins foundation.
You forgot to mention the strippers...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
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Offline butterbattle wrote:I've been to a science temple, Fonzie. Atheists from the surrounding area make a pilgrimage there once in a while to pray to evolution. During worship, we consume bread and wine, which transubstantiates into the blood and body of Charles Darwin. We also pay a tithe to the Richard Dawkins foundation.
You forgot to mention the strippers...
Well, I definitely will be paying the science temple more visits if they have added strippers to the services.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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Offline The theory is certainly robust, as nothing to date, in mathematics, physics, chemistry, is able to falsify any of it's claims, or predictions.
Competing scientists have fought hard to falsify it, as the motivation to do so, would earn them a 'demi god' like status and earn them a unique place and honor in human history.
There are no ideas of your own, that you are going to postulate, with your obvious level of ignorance, that will do anything, but even further illustrate your level of ignorance, as you do not even understand all the mechanisms involved.
Have you any understanding of the Large Hadron Collider?
Faith has nothing to do with it, if one understands what they are testing, how the tests are conducted, and what subsequent tests will be needed if the current scientific predictions fail.
We have the knowledge that with the proper methods, the patterns of nature will be observed, and allow us to test them for absolute certainty. Man is not limited to the limits of his own mind anymore, as we are developing computer hardware and software, that can compute, and run thousands, upon thousands of different simulations, and model virtually unlimited numbers of variables, as well as helping us design and build even more powerful computers, condensing time exponentially.
Natural patterns cannot perpetually escape detection by computers. The pattern generator softwares being developed can also be used to extrapolate and model enormously complex scenarios.
Scientists have been making predictions, and seeing them realized, and often gaining results that exceeded their predictions.
redneF,
Yes it certainly is robust, and, no I have no understanding of the Large Hadron Collider - just that from the reports on here I have to conclude that it's much ado about nothing because it applies to nothing we have to deal with in our half-life of a vapor life span. Sure, build bigger computers, do simulations, model variables and condense exponentially - but what is the meaning of life Einstein? Where are we and where are we getting blown to?
Aren't you being too scientifically minded to be of any practical good? It's about as valuable as a flame spectrometer at a baseball game.
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Offline redneF wrote:The theory is certainly robust, as nothing to date, in mathematics, physics, chemistry, is able to falsify any of it's claims, or predictions.
Competing scientists have fought hard to falsify it, as the motivation to do so, would earn them a 'demi god' like status and earn them a unique place and honor in human history.
There are no ideas of your own, that you are going to postulate, with your obvious level of ignorance, that will do anything, but even further illustrate your level of ignorance, as you do not even understand all the mechanisms involved.
Have you any understanding of the Large Hadron Collider?
Faith has nothing to do with it, if one understands what they are testing, how the tests are conducted, and what subsequent tests will be needed if the current scientific predictions fail.
We have the knowledge that with the proper methods, the patterns of nature will be observed, and allow us to test them for absolute certainty. Man is not limited to the limits of his own mind anymore, as we are developing computer hardware and software, that can compute, and run thousands, upon thousands of different simulations, and model virtually unlimited numbers of variables, as well as helping us design and build even more powerful computers, condensing time exponentially.
Natural patterns cannot perpetually escape detection by computers. The pattern generator softwares being developed can also be used to extrapolate and model enormously complex scenarios.
Scientists have been making predictions, and seeing them realized, and often gaining results that exceeded their predictions.
redneF,
Yes it certainly is robust, and, no I have no understanding of the Large Hadron Collider - just that from the reports on here I have to conclude that it's much ado about nothing because it applies to nothing we have to deal with in our half-life of a vapor life span. Sure, build bigger computers, do simulations, model variables and condense exponentially - but what is the meaning of life Einstein? Where are we and where are we getting blown to?
Aren't you being too scientifically minded to be of any practical good? It's about as valuable as a flame spectrometer at a baseball game.
Applies to nothing about life? Hey, that makes it just like God!
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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Offline but what is the meaning of life Einstein?
42 or ice cream, depending on your preference.
Where are we
I don't know where you are, but I live on the Earth.
and where are we getting blown to?
I'm not getting blown anywhere, lol. Generally, our bodies have a sufficient concentration of mass to avoid being blown into the air.
Aren't you being too scientifically minded to be of any practical good?
I didn't know there was such a thing. Virtually everything of practical use in the modern world comes from science.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline redneF,
Yes it certainly is robust, and, no I have no understanding of the Large Hadron Collider - just that from the reports on here I have to conclude that it's much ado about nothing
That's an ignorant statement.
because it applies to nothing we have to deal with in our half-life
What would be our 'half-life"?
We spend a part of our life evolving (maturing), then we begin to decay after maturity.
What part is a human 'half-life'? The maturing part, or the decay part? Or the whole cycle? What if we die prematurely?
What about the other 'half' of what you call a human 'half-life'?
Would the Large Hadron Collider provide something valuable to that half?
So, you think their time spent constructing a high energy particle accelerator with a 17 mile circumference, testing matter, to get closer to reaching the next quantum level of understanding of the mechanisms governing all matter in the universe, would be better spent reading the bible?
Yes, or no?
I would love to hear your answer on that.
...of a vapor life span.
I've never heard this term used in science.
... but what is the meaning of life Einstein?
Yes.
That's the answer.
Yes.
Where are we...
We're on a planet called earth.
...and where are we getting blown to?
Do you mean where the universe is expanding to?
Read up on general relativity and special relativity, to understand that time is relative to the observer, in order to even begin understanding the non sequitur nature of your question.
Quantum theory theorizes much more.
I can't possible dumb it down enough, and not have it take up my entire evening.
Suffice it to say, that your question, is simply 'the wrong question'.
Aren't you being too scientifically minded to be of any practical good?
Do you understand how completely cognitively dissonant that question is?
It's about as valuable as a flame spectrometer at a baseball game.
And some people are lucky that stupidity isn't painful...
I'm going to post something similar, to something I just posted to another non brainiac, in another thread.
If you can't understand and agree with this, you have a serious mental handicap.
There's no other way to put it.
***************
What you highly doubt, means nothing, just as being highly sure of something, means nothing.
The fact is, that you don't know.
Either way.
You can speculate that biblical accounts are real, and correct.
I can speculate that biblical accounts are bogus, and fairytales.
You say you have the facts on your side, so you win?
No.
The facts that humans lie, trumps your 'facts' exponentially.
That fact, is a fact. The truth.
Truth has more veracity than 'speculation'.
That's another inescapable truth.
Fact and truth are interchangeable with each other.
That is a fact.
'Speculations' are not interchageable with either 'fact' or 'truth'.
See the cycle?...
The possibility that a speculation is true, or false, is equal. It can also be non applicable.
If you try and negate these, you are more interested in arguing in favour of what you 'feel' is true, than in determining the actual 'truth'.
That's why there's the ad nauseum 'appeal to emotions' used in 'arguing' in favour of an idea.
Emotions (the 'heart') have got nothing to do with the 'truth'.
The 'truth' doesn't care about you.
Never did, never will.
Because it's not a living thing.
It's not even an idea.
It's an abstract.
You have 'no' power over the truth.
There's no escape velocity from the truth.
You speculate a god created truth?
You don't truthfully know that.
Therefore you don't have the actual truth...
And you can't escape it... 
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
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Offline I think what Fonzie means by "half-life" is our physical one. See, to him humans can't have a full life unless they're worshiping God, loving the Bible and (most importantly) telling Fonzie how right he is.
He's jealous of those who bring meaning to their lives because he's wasted his with God.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
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What you highly doubt, means nothing, just as being highly sure of something, means nothing.
The fact is, that you don't know.
Either way.
You can speculate that biblical accounts are real, and correct.
I can speculate that biblical accounts are bogus, and fairytales.
You say you have the facts on your side, so you win?
No.
The facts that humans lie, trumps your 'facts' exponentially.
That fact, is a fact. The truth.
Truth has more veracity than 'speculation'.
That's another inescapable truth.
Fact and truth are interchangeable with each other.
That is a fact.
'Speculations' are not interchageable with either 'fact' or 'truth'.
See the cycle?...
The possibility that a speculation is true, or false, is equal. It can also be non applicable.
If you try and negate these, you are more interested in arguing in favour of what you 'feel' is true, than in determining the actual 'truth'.
That's why there's the ad nauseum 'appeal to emotions' used in 'arguing' in favour of an idea.
Emotions (the 'heart') have got nothing to do with the 'truth'.
The 'truth' doesn't care about you.
Never did, never will.
Because it's not a living thing.
It's not even an idea.
It's an abstract.
You have 'no' power over the truth.
There's no escape velocity from the truth.
You speculate a god created truth?
You don't truthfully know that.
Therefore you don't have the actual truth...
And you can't escape it...
redneF,
The knowledge I have that the Scriptures are true are based on faith in things I haven't seen - I am confident of things the Scriptures say happened, the way Scripture says things are, and the things Scriptures promise and the way Scriptures say things will be, though beyond imagination.
The question of "what is truth" has been ask for a long time. Pilate ask Jesus, "what is truth?" I believe what Jesus said on that, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". So we have a fundamental difference - I believe Truth is living. Truth is Jesus, Jesus is Truth.
The way I would say I "know" that the Scriptures are true and "Jesus is LORD" is through the Light of the Holy Spirit which I was given through faithful promise when I was born anew into Christ, born of the water and the Spirit.
On the first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover when the Israelites left Egypt) God wrote His Law for Moses on tablets of stone. At the last Pentecost (50 days after the Lamb of God was sacrificed) God wrote His Law on the hearts of man when His Spirit was poured out on those who believed in Jesus. With the sin that was between us and God out of the way through the payment of the debt through the death of Christ - God has brought us near. Our faith is counted as righteousness - just like Abraham's. Our faith is our living connection to God through Christ and we are In Christ. The Righteousness that we (Christians) have is a gift from God through faith in Christ.
So the "knowing" you spoke of is through faith in the Living Christ, Who, as Scripture tells us (and we experience) comes along with the Father and the Holy Spirit and dwells in us.
There is emotion involved, I don't deny that; however, the faith that we have in Christ is much stronger than emotion. It is compared to an anchor in Scripture - whereas, emotion could be compared to the wind and weather.
The heart does have something to do with the Truth. The heart is where the battle for truth is fought. The heart is where the weeds need to be pulled, the enemy needs to be watched for, the conscience needs to be kept intact, the lights need to be lit, and the sword needs to flash.
You are right in saying I have no control over the Truth. If I had a God I had control of it wouldn't be the True God. The Truth is something I aim to know (know Christ) and submit to. I don't want to escape the Truth....ever. I have the promise in Scripture that neither life (this short vapor) nor death will separate me from Christ - Who is the Truth. You are wrong that the Truth doesn't care about all of us. The Truth died for us - even while we were enemies.
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Offline So what happens when your "Truth" lies?
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Offline The problem you guys have, is that you are dishonest in how you articulate your feelings. It's not even about hyperbole, it's beyond that. It's intentionally interchanging terms to make yourselves feel better.
It's not about being accurate in what you actually mean.
There's what people say, and there's what they actually mean.
The knowledge I have that the Scriptures are true are based on faith in things I haven't seen -
What that actually means is : "The 'hope' I have that the scriptures are accurate, and aren't merely fallacy, are based on hoping things that I haven't seen, are actually possible"
I am confident of things the Scriptures say happened
Which really means "I am desperate that what's written in these particular ancient scriptures, is true"
The question of "what is truth" has been ask for a long time. Pilate ask Jesus, "what is truth?" I believe what Jesus said on that, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". So we have a fundamental difference - I believe Truth is living. Truth is Jesus, Jesus is Truth.
That's still all based on 'hope'.
Hope that Jesus was an actual person, and not simply folklore.
And even if he were real, the 'hope' that he wasn't a fraud.
So, you're presupposing that this figure actually existed, and presupposing that what is rumoured about him, and what is rumoured he said, aren't simply folklore.
You presuppose these things, because you'd hope it all to be true.
You're desperate for it to be true.
But, you don't want to admit that you're desperate.
The way I would say I "know" that the Scriptures are true
You don't know they're anything more than folklore, but you desperately hope they are, because that would give you hope that you will have an afterlife, because you are desperate to continue living, after death.
You're that desperate.
You aren't capable of accepting that there is nothing beyond death.
That's an emotional dysfunction, about reality.
On the first Pentecost ...
I'm not interested in a sermon, so spare me your folklore drivel.
So the "knowing" you spoke of is through faith in the Living Christ
You don't have knowledge, if you have to rely on hoping something is true.
But it's amusing how people like you desperately presume things to be true.
It must be really difficult for people like you to choose between laundry detergent, because many different laundry detergents claim to be xx% brighter than all other brands.
as Scripture tells us...
There are lots of scriptures that make equal claims of other gods. Why don't you assume their gods are not real?
How do you go about distinguishing between gods, and discounting the other ones?
I'd love to know that.
(and we experience) comes along with the Father and the Holy Spirit and dwells in us.
I don't know what you're talking about.
Are you saying that you're possessed?
There is emotion involved, I don't deny that
There would have to be, since you're biased.
however, the faith that we have in Christ is much stronger than emotion.
So you have visions of someone? You feel someone else inside you?
That's delusional.
emotion could be compared to the wind and weather.
That makes no sense.
The heart does have something to do with the Truth.
No.
I already explained that reality and what you feel in your heart, are not mutually inclusive. There are lots of realities that are true, no matter how they make you feel.
The heart is where the battle for truth is fought.
People like you are always giving sermons and talking 'at' people, instead of talking 'with' people.
You're in your only little personal bubble.
It's childish, and insulting.
That's why people who are grounded in reality, and not living in some fantasy, find you people so annoying.
You're not in the present. You're in some fanatasy, and giving sermons from some fantasy place.
The hubris, and self centeredness is like a drone.
The heart is where the weeds need to be pulled, the enemy needs to be watched for, the conscience needs to be kept intact, the lights need to be lit, and the sword needs to flash.
There, you feel better now?
Did giving a sermon give you some kind of orgasm, or something?
Why can't you be 'down to earth'?
You people really can't cope without your fantasy land, can you?
You are right in saying I have no control ....
You are out of control.
Of your emotions.
...over the Truth.
When you write 'Truth' with an upper case T, you are indicating that you are speaking of something ethereal.
You're very aware I'm not talking about the ethereal, yet, you want to engage me in supernatural mumbo jumbo fantasy.
You treat people like subjects.
Not like peers.
You arrogant, condescending, POS.
The Truth is something I aim to know (know Christ) and submit to.
You're desperate to belong to someone.
That's your problem.
The question is, why the dysfunction among you people?
What's with the willingness and desire to completely 'submit' to someone?
An overwhelming compulsion to submit to another, is not emotionally stable. It's dysfunctional.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
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Offline The problem you guys have, is that you are dishonest in how you articulate your feelings. It's not even about hyperbole, it's beyond that. It's intentionally interchanging terms to make yourselves feel better.
It's not about being accurate in what you actually mean.
There's what people say, and there's what they actually mean.
Fonzie wrote:The knowledge I have that the Scriptures are true are based on faith in things I haven't seen -
What that actually means is : "The 'hope' I have that the scriptures are accurate, and aren't merely fallacy, are based on hoping things that I haven't seen, are actually possible"
Fonzie wrote:I am confident of things the Scriptures say happened
Which really means "I am desperate that what's written in these particular ancient scriptures, is true"
Fonzie wrote:The question of "what is truth" has been ask for a long time. Pilate ask Jesus, "what is truth?" I believe what Jesus said on that, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". So we have a fundamental difference - I believe Truth is living. Truth is Jesus, Jesus is Truth.
That's still all based on 'hope'.
Hope that Jesus was an actual person, and not simply folklore.
And even if he were real, the 'hope' that he wasn't a fraud.
So, you're presupposing that this figure actually existed, and presupposing that what is rumoured about him, and what is rumoured he said, aren't simply folklore.
You presuppose these things, because you'd hope it all to be true.
You're desperate for it to be true.
But, you don't want to admit that you're desperate.
Fonzie wrote:The way I would say I "know" that the Scriptures are true
You don't know they're anything more than folklore, but you desperately hope they are, because that would give you hope that you will have an afterlife, because you are desperate to continue living, after death.
You're that desperate.
You aren't capable of accepting that there is nothing beyond death.
That's an emotional dysfunction, about reality.
Fonzie wrote:On the first Pentecost ...
I'm not interested in a sermon, so spare me your folklore drivel.
Fonzie wrote:So the "knowing" you spoke of is through faith in the Living Christ
You don't have knowledge, if you have to rely on hoping something is true.
But it's amusing how people like you desperately presume things to be true.
It must be really difficult for people like you to choose between laundry detergent, because many different laundry detergents claim to be xx% brighter than all other brands.
Fonzie wrote:as Scripture tells us...
There are lots of scriptures that make equal claims of other gods. Why don't you assume their gods are not real?
How do you go about distinguishing between gods, and discounting the other ones?
I'd love to know that.
Fonzie wrote:(and we experience) comes along with the Father and the Holy Spirit and dwells in us.
I don't know what you're talking about.
Are you saying that you're possessed?
Fonzie wrote:There is emotion involved, I don't deny that
There would have to be, since you're biased.
Fonzie wrote:however, the faith that we have in Christ is much stronger than emotion.So you have visions of someone? You feel someone else inside you?
That's delusional.
Fonzie wrote:emotion could be compared to the wind and weather.That makes no sense.
Fonzie wrote:The heart does have something to do with the Truth.No.
I already explained that reality and what you feel in your heart, are not mutually inclusive. There are lots of realities that are true, no matter how they make you feel.
Fonzie wrote:The heart is where the battle for truth is fought.People like you are always giving sermons and talking 'at' people, instead of talking 'with' people.
You're in your only little personal bubble.
It's childish, and insulting.
That's why people who are grounded in reality, and not living in some fantasy, find you people so annoying.
You're not in the present. You're in some fanatasy, and giving sermons from some fantasy place.
The hubris, and self centeredness is like a drone.
Fonzie wrote:The heart is where the weeds need to be pulled, the enemy needs to be watched for, the conscience needs to be kept intact, the lights need to be lit, and the sword needs to flash.There, you feel better now?
Did giving a sermon give you some kind of orgasm, or something?
Why can't you be 'down to earth'?
You people really can't cope without your fantasy land, can you?
Fonzie wrote:You are right in saying I have no control ....You are out of control.
Of your emotions.
Fonzie wrote:...over the Truth.When you write 'Truth' with an upper case T, you are indicating that you are speaking of something ethereal.
You're very aware I'm not talking about the ethereal, yet, you want to engage me in supernatural mumbo jumbo fantasy.
You treat people like subjects.
Not like peers.
You arrogant, condescending, POS.
Fonzie wrote:The Truth is something I aim to know (know Christ) and submit to.You're desperate to belong to someone.
That's your problem.
The question is, why the dysfunction among you people?
What's with the willingness and desire to completely 'submit' to someone?
An overwhelming compulsion to submit to another, is not emotionally stable. It's dysfunctional.
redneF,
Thanks for your diagnosis, et.al. I guess that's a whole lot easier than explaining what the Large Hadron Collider has to do with what's happening now.
I guess it's logical that - if we have a fundamentally different view of "what is Truth?", etc., it would follow that you would think I'm dishonest. Plus, it's understandable you have confidence in your thinking of what my problem is: what I mean by what I say, that I'm dysfunctional, arrogant, desperate, incapable of facing reality, possessed, biased, delusional, a POS, senseless, fantasizing, out of control, compulsive - and, well, other than that - a pretty nice all around decent guy.
I don't take it personally, redneF, (and check my reasoning on this) because we take a different road at the start: the question of Who Jesus Is - is He Who He says He Is or not, that question. I believe He is, therefore at that point we split. Jesus instructed: "If they call the Master of the house Be-elzebul how much more will they malign those of His household!" Doesn't it make sense? You see that it IS reasonable that if you don't think Jesus is the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the Way, the Truth and the Life (as He said He Is), you would thus malign me - because I DO believe He is exactly "all That". You don't. You think He is dishonest, etc - therefore; wa laa! then, there's little POS me..... I don't take offense, and I don't blame your Large Hadron Collider.
So just chalk it up to the fact that we have each taken a different road.
Let me ask you a few questions:
1)If two are having a discussion and one rages and laughs and ridicules while the other one doesn't - which one is arrogant and dysfunctional?
2)When one in the discussion claims to know how the other thinks in his heart of hearts - who is delusional? (ok, what am I thinking now?)
3) When one lays out the reason for his hopes and motives and faith and confidence - but all the other can respond with is insults and ptomaine - who is admitting they don't have anything to offer?
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Offline Let me ask you a few questions:1)If two are having a discussion and one rages and laughs and ridicules while the other one doesn't - which one is arrogant and dysfunctional?
2)When one in the discussion claims to know how the other thinks in his heart of hearts - who is delusional? (ok, what am I thinking now?)
3) When one lays out the reason for his hopes and motives and faith and confidence - but all the other can respond with is insults and ptomaine - who is admitting they don't have anything to offer?
You asking him or yourself ? Cuz you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here. Three times.
As for Red, he simply figured out your language and is speaking it to you fluently.
You reap what you sow.
Enjoy.
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Offline Ooohh, questions.
Let me ask you a few questions:
Fire away, Fonzie dude.
1)If two are having a discussion and one rages and laughs and ridicules while the other one doesn't - which one is arrogant and dysfunctional?
I have no idea. Why is the first guy raging, laughing, and ridiculing? What's the second guy doing?
2)When one in the discussion claims to know how the other thinks in his heart of hearts - who is delusional? (ok, what am I thinking now?)
Lol, what's the heart of hearts? It means they can read your mind!?
3) When one lays out the reason for his hopes and motives and faith and confidence - but all the other can respond with is insults and ptomaine - who is admitting they don't have anything to offer?
Well, the first guy laid out reason for his "faith," so the first guy definitely doesn't have much to offer in terms of critical thinking. I don't know about the second guy. What are they offering?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline Fonzie wrote:
Again, my purpose on this thread is my statement that Christianity and the Bible and the gospel "Works for Me" - and I asked if you atheists have something better. If this is it - please tell me how it applies instead of just fascinates. Don't worry about insulting me in your application. I needed a dumbed-down version. I haven't spent years in the science temple.
Ok Fonzie, in a very simple form, here is what Atheism has to offer. The name of the video is even, What Atheism has to offer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_V9iuqCpfk&feature=fvw
Harley,
This video is very informative, confirmed by tap-dancing I have seen here rather than substantive offers of what atheists hold that inspires any good in their day. As the video shows - atheism is only a rejection of "religion", minus understanding that "religion" isn't even what Christianity is about. Jesus had the most severe rebukes (woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...) for those peddling their religion wheel, fooling themselves thinking they were generating light when the light in them is actually darkness.
Then atheism comes on here as a "black hole", with the gauntlet thrown down to wit: "we can ridicule anything" (and offer nothing) and I agree yes, you can. You atheists have been showing me what your father the devil my enemy is like tangibly in your responses and thereby making the subjective effort have wheels, putting flesh on the principalities. As you also show, there is nothing said that can't be mischaracterized or subjected to the spirit and seasoning of the 'big lie'.
Again, all this while I visit heaven (the lower streets albeit) again and again - so could you BTW. In Christ I have been lifted up into the heavenly places, and so could you. Fellowship with Christ and communion with God are heaven here visited. Plus it's better than all Harleys of all times - though, you reject it all.... but, alas, you guys are in the book! You might think you wrote the book, but, no, no, you just reject the Book and mischaracterize the Book, but still appear in the Book - not cameo either - and the Book gets it right.
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Harley,
This video is very informative, confirmed by tap-dancing I have seen here rather than substantive offers of what atheists hold that inspires any good in their day. As the video shows - atheism is only a rejection of "religion", minus understanding that "religion" isn't even what Christianity is about. Jesus had the most severe rebukes (woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...) for those peddling their religion wheel, fooling themselves thinking they were generating light when the light in them is actually darkness.
But isn't Christianity a religion ?
Actually atheism is a lack of belief in god. That's it, nothing more nor nothing less. Although logically, rejection of god is rejection of religion for me of course.
I am not sure what you mean by the tap-dancing around. Unless I am reading it wrong, most people on here offered clear cut answers to your questions.
Then atheism comes on here as a "black hole", with the gauntlet thrown down to wit: "we can ridicule anything" (and offer nothing) and I agree yes, you can. You atheists have been showing me what your father the devil my enemy is like tangibly in your responses and thereby making the subjective effort have wheels, putting flesh on the principalities. As you also show, there is nothing said that can't be mischaracterized or subjected to the spirit and seasoning of the 'big lie'.
I can not refer to it in terms of "we" since every Atheist is different. I ridicule what I perceive to be falsehoods, unfounded assertions and unprovable dogmas that religion dictates people to live by. It was a depressing way for me to live my life. I "offer" reality and searches for truth.
Again, all this while I visit heaven (the lower streets albeit) again and again - so could you BTW. In Christ I have been lifted up into the heavenly places, and so could you. Fellowship with Christ and communion with God are heaven here visited. Plus it's better than all Harleys of all times - though, you reject it all.... but, alas, you guys are in the book! You might think you wrote the book, but, no, no, you just reject the Book and mischaracterize the Book, but still appear in the Book - not cameo either - and the Book gets it right.
I am in the book specifically ? Where ?
How did you get lifted up to Heaven if you are still down here on Earth and alive ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
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Here we are, in Atheist vs Theist. Neither side will budge, I would have to say that I have seen a lot of assertions flying both directions. Hard to find a debate on a topic like this where there are not assertions, presentations of subjective evidence, which lead to all of the moderated activity listed, on both sides.
Tough to moderate this one. Tough to moderate without being biased, based on beliefs. Anonymouse makes his request about Trollville, while he continually slashes and disrupts any productive debate or conversation in this thread. Instead of letting things progress, he reverts back to talk of lies, and does not let discussion on topics play out. I have not found any of his posts to be productive or beneficial. He claims he wants to save others from the agony of answering the thread owner's questions, while subjecting readers/contributors of the thread to repetitive discussion disruptive posts.
Will every discussion and period of questions play out the same, I would think not. Is there benefit to hearing an answer to similar questions from different members, yes I would think so as each member would have a different answer and the direction of the discussion would move forward.
Seems like both sides have let some things fly, but this is clearly Atheist vs Theist. What is the ideal Atheist vs Theist thread like? Do all threads end with "Atheists win again?"
It also seems like in life, each person believes their beliefs are truth. So we (as theists), debate on a site where truth = atheism. At the end of the day, on this site the winner is atheism. Threads all naturally follow.
I believe any theist that continues to remain or visit this site, truly loves people or really hates atheists and wants to try to make them squirm. There is no winning on this site, it's an atheist's world here. Coming back means a theist is interested, interested in questions, answers and views from atheists. How did you arrive at where you are? Why is that place of arrival good? These are all repetitive questions, but each atheist or theist has uniquely different answers. In order to receive that and debate different arrivals, conversation and debate occur with different members.
Upside
Oh for the luvva ...
Give us a break. We bent over backwards for this guy. FOR OVER THREE YEARS !
Could you please, please, please, please read the whole thread before commenting on it ?
Seriously, what's the use of commenting on something you haven't read ? I don't understand why you insist on doing that.
No, it's not. The decision to give him the troll badge was made years ago.
All they have to decide now is if dodging a badge by registering again is allowed or not.
Pretty simple.
I have explained why I keep butting in. You're gonna ignore that too ? Okay, i'll repeat, AGAIN :
Repeating questions that were already answered, and arguments that were already debunked, isn't a discussion. Doing it for over three years is trolling.
What progress is there in endless repeats ? He even re-cycles his insults !
You're not listening. The "discussion" has already played out. Many, many, many times.
This is why I asked you to read his threads before commenting.
That might be because you haven't actually read them, as your following sentence makes clear :
Nope, that's not what I said. Kindly don't put words in my mouth and read posts before you comment on them.
That really isn't that much to ask.
So now it's my fault that he keeps repeating himself and refuses to answer one simple question ?
Yeah, that makes total sense.
You don't have to guess. You can read, and then you'll know that it does.
You'd think so , but no, if you actually read the thread, you'll find that what happens is the following : Once he gets the question answered, he'll eventually claim that it never happened.
I would really like to know how any discussion can move anywhere, if one of the participants completely ignores the other one.
Again, you can easily answer your own question by simply reading those threads.
Wow, that's spectacularly untrue. Impressively so.
Try actually reading one the threads here.
If there was even a hint of truth in what you just typed, there wouldn't be a single post in this entire forum.
An "atheist's world", that allows a theist to repeat the same questions for over three years, ignore the answers, lie and spout threats at people who dare to ask questions ?
Is there a "theist's world" somewhere that would offer me the same comfy deal ?
Then why ignore those answers and views ?
Vague questions lead to very precise ones, and they're always the same, as are the answers, as are the arguments that support them.
How many times do they have to be repeated before he actually listens ?
How many times does he need to insult and threaten before he's satisfied ?
And why, for pete's sake, is it so incredibly offensive for me to ask for just a tiny bit of honesty ?
As far as I know, the vast majority of "theist world's" on the Internet would ban me within a week if I posted unapologetically.
Truth does NOT equal atheism.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Fonzie's last post at me I find it instructive that independent thought is described by Fonzie as being the work of satan. Interesting, too, that Fonzie draws god like a gun. You know, it's been a long and winding road getting out of the cult, learning to actually think instead of being cowed by bully boy tactics. Becoming a complete human, at one and enthralled by the universe that spawned him.
If you need some life lessons, Fonzie, I highly recommend Cicero's On Duties. Written 50 years before Jesus was born, it's a fresh, insightful and powerful vision of an ethical life that makes the ill-formed, blatant forgery of the New Testament shrivel into the tawdry tangle of threats, myths and lies that it undoubtedly is.
I think reading a book about taking responsibility for your own actions would be of real benefit to you, Fonzie. It's a better book than yours. There's a plot and everything.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Maybe we could hijack this thread and discuss matters. I wonder - how do you know you love god when you've never met him? Does it feel real to you?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Of course there is.
It's called an imagination.
As are delusions. Hallucinations. Paranoia. Psychosis. Schizophrenia. Illusions.
And all of them can authentically fool people into believing a non reality.
Of course not. It's well observed, tested and documented in psychology.
They're not mutually exclusive.
However, the terms faith, trust, conviction, and belief in a god, are interchangeable with 'hope'.
The mistake that's often made, is the disbelief that feelings, or emotions are not at work, in the decision to suppose that a god/creator of the universe exists.
It's illogical to make that claim, because the 'god' is a figure. A legend.
The questions that clearly illustrate and reveal the involvement of feelings/emotions are:
1- How do you know?
2- How can you be absolutely certain?
Apparently it's not a different thing, as you assert, as you are using an 'appeal to emotions' with your "A fire lit by God" rhetoric and hyperbole.
Epic fail.
That's your hope.
Since you've (and anyone else who is alive) never experienced rigor mortis, you cannot have the absolute knowledge that there is a life after this one.
Which leaves the odds at 50/50 that you will be incorrect.
So you hope.
Hope is a feeling/emotion.
It is NOT knowledge.
Your 'arguments' are mostly centered on appeals to emotions, as opposed to being based on rational discourse of facts, and knowledge.
Somebody says?
Do you know who that somebody is, that postulated the "Big Bang Theory"???
Here he is, in between Albert Einstein, and Nobel laureate physicist Robert Millikan
Georges Lemaitre was an astronomer, astrophysicist, and also a Roman Catholic priest.
The theory is certainly robust, as nothing to date, in mathematics, physics, chemistry, is able to falsify any of it's claims, or predictions.
Competing scientists have fought hard to falsify it, as the motivation to do so, would earn them a 'demi god' like status and earn them a unique place and honor in human history.
There are no ideas of your own, that you are going to postulate, with your obvious level of ignorance, that will do anything, but even further illustrate your level of ignorance, as you do not even understand all the mechanisms involved.
Have you any understanding of the Large Hadron Collider?
Faith has nothing to do with it, if one understands what they are testing, how the tests are conducted, and what subsequent tests will be needed if the current scientific predictions fail.
We have the knowledge that with the proper methods, the patterns of nature will be observed, and allow us to test them for absolute certainty. Man is not limited to the limits of his own mind anymore, as we are developing computer hardware and software, that can compute, and run thousands, upon thousands of different simulations, and model virtually unlimited numbers of variables, as well as helping us design and build even more powerful computers, condensing time exponentially.
Natural patterns cannot perpetually escape detection by computers. The pattern generator softwares being developed can also be used to extrapolate and model enormously complex scenarios.
Scientists have been making predictions, and seeing them realized, and often gaining results that exceeded their predictions.
He sees very clearly what is apparent to anyone who has the knowledge, and at least a secondary level education, that you are simply not even aware of the base knowledge of generations old fundamental knowledge of the natural world, much less the up to date knowledge.
Your moldy old book, and your 'hopes' are 'blinding' you.
IOW, you are demonstrably ignorant, and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of your league...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Yay!
A mindless defense of one hypocrite from another!
Fonzie doesn't debate - he preaches. And he lies and misrepresents scripture in doing so.
Why aren't you attacking his misuse of your Bible? Oh yeah, you haven't read the thread. You just hopped into join your brother when you saw him squirming under scrutiny.
It's only an "atheists win again" scenario when it gets down to the theist lying and ignoring stuff that he's been told so he can keep preaching.
Is dishonesty a tenet of the Christian faith? That's all I've been seeing for the last several years (on here, and with friends and family).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Lol. Rude, but not untrue.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Is it that obvious that my patience with these jackholes is at an end?
Three years was enough, I think.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Harley,
I just watched the video you linked here. At the start of this thread I ask some questions - the last was do you have something better. In the video the commentator challenged that if you have a better theory it has to answer certain questions better than BBT.
I have another question. If this represents what atheists have that is "better" than the gospel - how do you apply it? So you think you are on to something about the way the fireworks were set off - how does it apply to today? If you consider the BBT better than the gospel and Scripture it has to (not explain back radiation and the age of Quasars) but it has to be relative to this life better than the Scriptures. It has to explain for instance man's relationship to his Creator and how man connects up with his Creator.
As we are rocketing through space your BBT has to explain where it is that we are going and how to prepare better than Scripture - which explains our Creator didn't hold on to Heaven, but clothed Himself in flesh to redeem us. In order to be better your BBT has to rescue us from our lifelong bondage to the fear of death. How does it do that - I don't get it from the video.
Again, my purpose on this thread is my statement that Christianity and the Bible and the gospel "Works for Me" - and I asked if you atheists have something better. If this is it - please tell me how it applies instead of just fascinates. Don't worry about insulting me in your application. I needed a dumbed-down version. I haven't spent years in the science temple.
Figures.
No, it doesn't. Why would it "have" to do that ?
That's like saying that gravity has to explain what the easter bunny does for the rest of the year.
It doesn't have to do that, and none of that even needs doing.
Your mistake here is that you seem to think that anything that challenges your religious ideas can only be a rival religion.
The big bang theory is not a religion. It doesn't need to be. If everyone stopped believing in the evidence that supports it, all the evidence would still be there.
If you do not understand that, just say so.
This question has been answered ad nauseam, as you yourself have acknowledged.
No, this was Harley very kindly explaining the big bang to you.
You see, only being a recent arrival, the poor chap had no idea how many people had already done that.
Again, it's not a religion. Try to understand the concept of "not a religion". Try hard.
You don't need years in the "science temple" to understand the difference between a religion and a scientific theory.
A dictionary should do.