It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Harley,
You do a good impression of Eliphaz the Temanite with your "Feelings Museum of Science and Industry". He's the one coming at Job (who BTW was fortified holding his faith - NOT FEELING - in a pure conscience). Eliphaz was one who judged Job (judgmentally I might add as you mentioned about your judgment) on the basis of providence, happenings. He had disdain for Job's faith in God from his position of "feelings" = a 'word was brought to me stealthily....dread came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones shake. A spirit glided by my face; the hair of my flesh stood up..."
I know the difference between "feelings" and "faith". What I'm talking about isn't "feelings". An example of "feelings" is the emotional thing with the passion movie - which lasts for about 30 hours maybe max.
Faith is a different thing, a fire lit by God that has to be maintained, fed, guarded. Your impure thoughts you mention are one example of something that would quench the fire of faith. Faith thus has a purifying effect, because all impure things hurt faith. Faith is the connection God counts as righteousness. It connects us to the Righteousness of God in the Sacrifice of Christ. If faith was no different than feeling Job would have never won his fight. They were tag-teaming him and you sound just like Eliphaz on a Harley.
And as for your new (falsely named) freedom to "ride off in all directions" may offer novelty but no promise for the life to come, or fellowship with God in a real faith. Your Harley and your approach to life have "engineered obsolescence". You have a pre-existing condition like all of us - death. Variety may have some value, but "godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come."
Yet I believe that Eliphaz was convinced of the ultimate "sinfulness" of man and kept urging Job to repent. I admit that it has been a long time since I have read the Bible, but I do remember the character giving Job like three or four speeches, each one increasing in it's severity. If I remember the context of his speeches, Eliphaz was convinced that no one good deserved to suffer and therefore Job must have done something to warrant all of his seemingly unjust punishment. Eliphaz seemed to have a very ugly view of humanity. I would not see any similiarity between he and I, unless I am missing something.
The emotional rush of lap dances seems to last a bit longer than 30 minutes for me. Those are supposedly inherently sinful I know, but so much fun.
When you really sound it all down, isn't faith a belief in something that can not be proven ? Isn't the fire to be guarded rather an attempt to suppress the natural feelings of doubt which would arrive from placing a belief in something that you can not see, hear, taste or touch ?
But there is the thing. The promise of eternal life does not mean that it exists. It is only a promise. No different than reincarnation or Valhalla. Why not make the most of what is in front of you rather than project on what might be ? Why not live each moment like it is truly your last one since it could very well be ? Why would the Biblical god hold that in such contempt ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Pretty much everyone here who's kindly tried to talk to "Fonzie", has gotten themselves compared to one of the baddies from the bible for their trouble.
It's like a WOW-nerd telling you you're like a "treacherous blood-elf".
It doesn't make any sense, but it makes them feel better.
Guys,
Fonzie admitted to an emotional feeling (probably all mushy about what "Jesus did for him"
when he saw Gibson's religious snuff film.
makes one more thing that he has in common with his god. They both like blood porn. If you believe the story, Yahweh likes to watch his as it's being made.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Harley,
I've tried snake oil before - this is different. Real fire is real fire. You would know the difference between a cardboard Harley and a real one - ok, in some cases it is more subtle; a Yamaha, but if you took time away from your lap dancing you could tell the difference between the fire of faith and fire of feeling.
We are already immortal beyond recall. Why would you allow that to turn into a curse rather than let it be a blessing by accepting the Living Christ as your Savior and take a straight trip rather than drive all over hell.
So you have real fire and are content with selling us snake oil? That's pretty scummy of you.
Judging from your posts here you need to take the advice of Rev. 2:5. Or you can just admit that you don't really care about our eternal welfare and are just glorifying yourself.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Insults and threats.
You sick of this yet, Harley ?
Please explain to me the difference between the "fire of faith" and the "fire of feeling".
Do you or do you not have some aspect of your faith that would defy all scientific, psychological and neurological explanations ? I am guessing no.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
To be honest, I am a little bit baffled as to how I got caught up in the middle of this never-ending thread.
I could say that the Devil made me do it. But since I don't believe in the devil, I guess I have got no one to blame but myself .
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
He's been taking advantage of the kindness of strangers for years. That's why this thread is so long.
I suggest we no longer allow him to do that.
I'll try no to go too much more into this but sometimes I can't help indulging masochists.
Harley,
I can't help wonder if this isn't reminiscent of when Anonymouse quit and slammed the door on God - the easy way out versus the hard way. First of all, he characterized the "snake oil" metaphor as an insult. This was the statement of yours I was answering:
"But there is the thing. The promise of eternal life does not mean it exists. It is only a promise. No different than reincarnation or Valhalla. Why not make the most of what is in front of you rather than project on what might be? Why not live each moment as if it is truly your last one since it very well could be? Why would the Biblical God hold that in such contempt?"
i have experienced false religion (snake oil for Anonymouse' benefit) - especially mischaracterizations of Christianity (like works Christianity). If I had been referring to atheists I would have said, "no oil" from the arguments of JcGadfly and Anonymouse.
Secondly, I wasn't talking to them so their approach was rude - especially when they mischaracterized my answer while bashing in the door (and I have had that experience too BTW, while trying to fix electricity off in a house with the home owner standing there holding the flashlight on the electrical box and the police bashing the door in like Anonymouse and JcGadfly). Rudeness which is against the welcome of the RRSQ HOME PAGE.
Next, there was no threat, give me a break before I spew coffee all over the keyboard. I was simply debating the promise that godliness has for this life and the life to come - being protected by the law of God - as opposed to living under condemnation of the law, with the pall of death hanging over every perceived blessing. I was answering this statement of yours which evidently they hadn't taken the trouble to read while accusing me of not reading posts:
Since everyone keeps wanting to do motorcycle analogies, this is mine. Life during religion was one highway, in one direction, with only one purpose and all other considerations were meaningless.
Life after religion has been highways stretching for miles into the distance of every direction, each ride completely unique in the scenery and the vision that it has to offer.
So Anonymouse characterizes debating atheism versus theism on the "atheist vs theist" section as "taking advantage of the kindness of strangers for years..." (Anonymouse) I can guarantee you I haven't taken advantage of any of his kindness. I show him the respect of being able to understand a metaphor and he calls such respect "unkindness"?
So I don't know if you want to continue this discussion or not. It's up to you. I don't know if you feel raped by discussion or not.
As to the difference between faith and feeling - that's a hard one to explain for this reason: You get the gift of the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Remember that Adam and Eve were told they would "die" when they ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree? Now in Christ we who were dead have been made alive. So it's a realm which maybe you have not experienced - however, I would again use the illustration of qualms of conscience to illustrate the difference between feeling and faith. It's a spiritual thing that affects feelings, but it has a spiritual source. (not an insult BTW Anonymouse)
Need that much text to explain you didn't really mean what you actually said ? You do this every time you get caught.
(Gee, I wonder what your excuse was that time when you started comparing posters here to some type of bug, or when you started making weird comments about my parents, or that time when you got all scatalogical. I'm sure explaining all that away will merit another wall of text)
(And yes, allowing an ex-troll to register again and simply continue as before, that is indeed a kindness. One you didn't deserve)
It would seem you have not read a single post of mine since I started replying to you. Nor have you bothered to read or remember anyone else's
And you don't seem too interested in reading yours either.
Okay, no problem.
As for Harely continuing this, that's up to him. He's doing well, imo, but I just think he deserves to know that he's not telling you anything you haven't eventually ignored hundreds of times before in your threads. Which is why I keep butting in.
There are simply too many other people here who are actually willing to listen to the people they're talking to, for anyone here to waste any more time on you.
So I would suggest that after all these years, enough is enough.
Gee Fonzie, I'm sorry about interrupting but you haven't said anything of importance for a while now so I'll jump in here so readers have something to look at that makes some sense.
1. Your snake oil isn't the same as the "works Christianity" snake oil - that's true. Works Christianity has Biblical basis (read James) - the "believe exactly as Fonzie believes or you're bound for hell" doesn't.
2. Anony's just peeved because this is supposed to be a discussion/debate forum and you've done neither. You've used this thread as a place to store your homilies. It would be better for you if you talked to people instead of at them.
3. I like how you put die in quotes to describe the Garden story. I guess you mean a "spiritual death" except...you use "qualms of conscience" as an example of faith. Adam and Eve felt guilty after they ate (according to the story) so they had one of those qualms - would they have had anything like that if they were spiritually dead?
4. You realize that the conscience is an evolutionary trait, right? it's the human capacity to understand and internalize a human society's rules (which were old when the Bible was still being written). Have you not developed sufficiently that you still need an external authority to threaten you with a punishment that doesn't fit the offense?
5. I don't know about Anony but I don't mind you being here so much. You come here and preach your Christianity, I and others show you in the Bible where your Christianity is off base, you ignore me/accuse me of mis-characterization and carry on, etc. I've noticed that you don't throw around the Bible passages so much anymore. Have you finally figured out that you are the founder of your religion or are you just tired of being hammered on a book you don't know as well as you think you do?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
1A) I'm glad you stick your neck completely out and admit you don't understand true Christianity and never did. I appreciate your honesty in that. I've tried to explain to you that no man will be saved by works of the law but only by faith in Jesus, but you have an emotional magnetic shield on that.
2A) Anony is one of those guys that isn't happy and won't be happy, is peeved and will be peeved. Let's not make a career out of that.
3A) Even in an abandoned empty house you can hook up a phone and make an emergency call, Jc.
4A) So are you saying your conscience evolved to the point that your conscience told you it was right to forsake God and speak against Him and His Son - even though you once committed yourself to Him (even though you didn't understand the relationship of works to faith)?
5A) Right, we are debating here. You are defending depravity. I am saying the Living God has redeemed me, I worship Him, love Him. He has lifted me up from death to life in Christ. As far as my bringing up Scriptures, you can characterize that any way you want to, but until you come through the Door you won't get a tour of the house.
Lol, no, you're not debating, and you never had any intention to. Anyone who reads one of your threads can hardly avoid that conclusion.
I guess I could react to your insults, but what's the point ? You'll just ignore me and post some new ones.
Btw, if any mod out there is going to be annoyed by my posting this well-deserved troll picture here (not for the last time, probably), they're more than welcome to compare this guy's IP with that of a certain ex-troll. Or they can just read the thread.
1. Yep I showed you that you have your own variant of Paulism that stands against the teachings of Jesus. It also shows me that you would never help another human being because you don't think it would get you brownie points for heaven. If you'd actually read James, you'd realize it has nothing to do with the works of the law. Then again, your need to use Christianity as a shield from accountability does allow you to sleep at night.
2. Anony likes honest people. I accept dishonesty as a Christian trait so it doesn't faze me so much.
3. Not if there was never phone service to the house to begin with. Then you're just talking to yourself. But you're used to that as well - that's why you and your God are always in complete agreement.
4. No, I'm saying the conscience has nothing to do with God and his Son. Christianity is learned. The conscience is innate. Rebelling against my training has caused me to listen to my conscience again and be more aware of people's needs. I'm sorry Christianity has seared yours closed.
5. If I were defending depravity - I'd be a Christian and we'd probably be in agreement. Christianity needs sin - that's why the writers had your God create it in the Garden story. I don't characterize your recent lack of Scripture use as anything - that's why I asked. And the fact that you have characterized yourself as the Door to your religion has given me the answer - thanks. You may like to tell us you're talking about Christ but I think you are more honest with yourself than you have been with us.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Athei-E,
You know Athei you are playing around with something here that you might just get someday by a miracle and - change course? You are of course stating the false doctrine here (yawn) that twists grace to "anything goes" - "shall we sin that grace may abound, by no means". There's nothing beautiful that can't be perverted that's for sure.
The sense in which works are worthless (again) is in that of paying our debt of sin. That is a debt we can't pay with works - it is only covered by the blood of Christ, the Lamb of God, the Sacrifice of God's Own choosing. Works are an outward expression of our faith in that gift. No works would thus mean no faith. But you're not the only one that doesn't get it on this scroll.
As for your counseling of Harley, "if you try to be good that doesn't count"... you're close again for an atheist especially. You can "reform" yourself which is like what we do on old houses (which are still just remodeled old houses). But you can only be "re-born" in Christ - all things made new (a new house, and a totally new view of things). This is probably TOO EXTREME for you, but this is quite the new life. Once you have tasted the heavenly gift you surely wouldn't aim to neglect your fire of faith would you? - did you taste the heavenly gift?
It is interesting how quick Harley accepted the mainstream news here from Jc and his shield bearer Anony and rode off into the God created sunset. This illustrates how easily you guys could be quick - accepting victims of dispensed wrong information. You come on here acting like you are ready to strut up to God like a highwayman demanding His purse, but when Anony wags his sharp little tongue, says "peace, be still" they take off quick to go get strokes of unbelief. Interesting. Like a big guy afraid of spiders or something.
I stand by my statement that very possibly you never really got past crawling level Christianity. Especially if you came out in the ring against Satan like you have behaved here. All he had to do was JUMP or do a finger pop and you ran and ran and ran - until you arrived here at RRSQ THEATER and - AHHH, wide screen lies in 3D!
Kinda like what religion has done to humanity by declaring everything in humanity to be inherently bad without their god involved. The theists of this world seem to have a sincere wish for this world to end and a sincere wish to see everyone suppressed into their doctrines.
What does it taste like ? Does it come in multiple flavors ?
Actually the sun was created by the big bang.
Actually at this point, I just felt that we were in a circular discussion that was not truly going anywhere. Although I gotta admit, that was a clever little trick to mention me in a way that you probably knew would earn SOME type of response from me.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
It was nice of you to point out that Paul couldn't keep his story straight from Romans 4 to Romans 6. I mean, why would Paul keep talking about sin after he eliminated it with the stroke of a pen? Or is this just your way of putting your version of Jesus in where Paul didn't want him? How can I twist the Bible by reading what it says? The twists comes when guys like you start in with , "What God/God through <x> was really saying was <insert your opinion here>".
Now you're agreeing with James and Jesus? You flip-flop an awful lot, son. Seems like you're trying to harmonize opposites. Or are you just the person written of in James 1:6-9?
"But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do."
You can't believe in Jesus, James, Paul and your religion all at once.
"Did I taste the heavenly gift?" No, fonzie, I don't want to fellate you. I don't care what you call your genitals.
Seriously, are you really saying that God made you the hypocritical prick that doesn't know the Bible? Seems rather unlike God.Are you sure you didn't bring a little of that in on your own?
I like the way you compare me and Anony to Don Quixote de la Mancha and Sancho Panza. That must mean we're tilting at a windmill named Fonzie....no that can't be it. Don Quixote couldn't beat the windmill where as you've been trounced multiple times. You are not an imaginary enemy - you're just another theist who came in thinking he knew what he was talking about based solely on what his pastor told him about the Bible. As for the highwayman analogy - I'll leave it to Christians to march up to God and say "gimme" - isn't that what Paul said you could do in Hebrews 4:16? Oh, I forgot you do/don't/ might/might not agree with Paul.
Crawling level Christianity? Because we read a book that you haven't yet? Because we don't need to be afraid of God or Satan as you are?
Why would you even talk about conflict with Satan? Judging from your OP, you've never had one. I look forward to you actually having something that tests your faith (it doesn't have to be a bad/hurtful thing so don't go there). Will you be the same after it or would you give credit to God for what he didn't do (as you did with the lithium).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
What does it taste like ? Does it come in multiple flavors ?
Ok, here's an opportunity for you to ride straight ahead in the discussion: explain to me the difference between your faith that the sunset was created by a big bang versus your feelings.